| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Therese, I can not add anymore to what Denise has so wonderfully articiulated unless I was to promote that little online book NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS. God Bless you today and in your search for these matters. Also please read Colleens most recent post to Shereen on the other thread. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Greetings, Therese, Itís all well and good for these churches to promote the 10 Commandments as a guide for Christian living, as long as they donít promote it above the life and teachings of Jesus Christ who is the true law that existed before the 10 and who supplanted the 10 when he came to earth. Hebrews 1:1-3. I think your logic is correct: The 10 should be kept in a spiritual way. But the spiritual way is to follow Christ. First we need to recognize that Christ himself IS as much superior to the 10 as he is superior to angels and the Aaronic priests. Hebrews 3 &4 show that Christ is superior to the Law of Moses, which includes the 10. Itís not that the law is ětotally gone and thrown out.î Itís that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the Law of Christ. Itís that the Law of Christ existed before the Law of Moses, which was temporary and inferior. Think of it this way: In the beginning there was the Word (Law of Christ). Then, because of sin, the Law of Moses came. Finally, when the Law of Christ was restored in the first coming of Christ, the Law of Moses isnít needed any more. There are many many scriptural illustrations to back this up: The slave woman vs. the true wife. The transfiguration when the law and the prophets disappeared and only Christ remained. The old covenant going obsolete and being replaced by the new. The shadow pointing to the reality. And many more. The Law of Christ is the Law of Love: ěLove does not harm to itís neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.î Christís Sermon on Mt. Blessings shows how superior this Law of Love is to the Law of Moses. How do we know if adultery is wrong? Look to the Sermon on Mt. Blessings: Christ said that the Law of Moses said you could look on a person of the opposite sex with lust and not sin as long as you didnít ěgo the distance.î But He added that under the Law of Love you canít even look on the opposite-sex person with lust because that is hurtful -- to God, to yourself, to your spouse, and to the other person as well -- and therefore a violation of the Law of Christ. If you really agape that other person, you will not lust after him/her. So something can be a violation of the Law of Christ without being a violation of the Law of Moses. And THATíS why itís superior. A further proof of its superiority is the fact that the Law of Moses was written on stony tablets, whereas the Law of Christ is written on the heart. The keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath was for the Jews a symbol of their allegiance to God, but the Fourth Commandment was also a practical labor law, giving people who as slaves had to work seven days per week a day off. And I think youíre right in that as a symbol the Lordís Supper has taken the place of the Sabbath. By keeping the Sabbath you are paying allegiance to the inferior Law of Moses. By keeping the Lordís Supper you are paying allegiance to the superior Law of Christ, the Law of Love. (Incidentally the Royal Law of Love wasnít found in the ark of the old covenant at all. Therefore, when the old covenant passed away with the first coming of Christ, the Royal Law of Love didnít pass away with it because it wasnít in the ark.) It is the new covenant (New Testament) that says, ěSin is lawlessness,î not the old. Look to Jesus Christ, not the Ten Commandments, for specifics that are vastly superior than the 10 to see what ělawfulnessî is. ěLove does not harm to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.î Max of the Cross | ||
| Therese |
Thanks for all the information here. It will take me some time to digest it all. God bless, Therese | ||
| Colleentinker |
Therese, my husband Richard had an insight a couple of weeks ago when he was talking to an Adventist friend. The friend asked him what happened to the law, if the New Covenant has replaced the law with Jesus in our lives. This is what Richard told him: Brazil has laws, but they don't have jurisdiction over us in the United States. The Brazilian laws are still there, but they don't have anything to do with us as Americans living in the USA. If we go back to Brazil, however, those laws are still there and then have jurisdiction over us. The Old Covenant law, likewise, has jurisdiction over those who have not been reborn and still live by the law. But for those who have accepted Jesus and have been reborn, the law no longer has jurisdiction over them. The Holy Spirit indwells them, and they live by the Living Law--God Himself--in them. As Hebrews says, with the change of the priesthood (from Aaron to Jesus) comes a change in the law. Praise God for granting us freedom and salvation! Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
dear therese, you're very welcome. i think the most important thing to realize in understanding the role of law in the bible and hence in application is how it evolved. previously, God had given Israel commandments written on stone. but in the new testament God has written on our HEARTS His commandments. The list apparently got a lot shorter when written on the heart (apparently only room for two ) "Love God" "Love your neighbor" as previously people have pointed out. jesus says that to not commit adultery, you not only have to avoid the act, but the lustful thought! talk about the impossibility of avoiding all sin! if we can understand that, we can understand how an inward demonstration of keeping the sabbath is being Saved. Resting in the Knowledge of our Salvation! Jesus harshly criticized the Pharisees: "You are like white washed tombs." meaning they were 'clean' on the outside, but inside they were like place of death that held rotting corpses. i think above all, in understanding commandment #4 is that Our Salvation is not dependent or made better by observing Sabbath. Our lives are instead enrichened by the understanding that because of Salvation we have REST which the physical demonstration of Sabbath represented. so from now on whatever you choose to do on Saturdays, is just as important as what you do everyday, coz remember, EVERYDAY is a Sabbath :). SDA's should really like that statement, but bizarrely they don't. C | ||
| Violet |
I have a nook in my kitchen where my four month old Bichon Frise has an old comforter on the floor. Each morning about 10am, when he has played all he can, he is ready for a rest. This morning as I hurried back and forth between the kitchen and den I glanced down on that spot. There he was laying on his back, all four paws in the air. The only movement was a slight rise and fall of his chest. He was so content. He had total trust that no one was going to hurt him he was at total rest. He didn't have to pay for the house or the comforter all he had to do was to plop down and rest. He had to accept what was provided. I started to think how we are much the same way. We do not have to pay for our salvation it is already provided, all we have to do is accept Jesus' blood and plop down in His rest. The rest is promised to us in Hebrews 4, as the Jews were questioning about not having to keep the Sabbath any more they were worried about their Sabbath rest. Read with me how the rest is still provided for today in Jesus Hebrews 4 The Promise of Rest Be Sure to Enter the Promised Rest 1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, "They shall not enter My rest,"' although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest." 6Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. The Word Discovers Our Condition 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Our Compassionate High Priest 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. | ||
| Chyna |
Violet! you have bichon frise puppies? now I'm really regretting I don't live closer to you :). You are correct about total trust. And God has provided us all the treasure of heaven too ... In Him, Chyna | ||
| Violet |
Yes, I have a one year old, a two year old, and a 4 month old Bichon. We fostered a mother an four puppies in January and this is one of the puppies. We rescue Bichons from puppy mills and take in Bichons who there owners no longer want them. We find forever homes for them, as you see sometimes that forever home is my kitchen floor! Vi | ||
| Maryann |
Hmmmmmmm, I'm uh-gunna get killed for this one, BUT, "Bichon Frise" sounds like something good to eat. And, on the other hand, I'm afraid to try to pronounce it!!!!;-)) Ouch;-)) | ||
| Violet |
Bee shawn Free zay (if your in Oklahoma) Bi shawn short "i" anywhere else Well if you want something good to eat do not eat it around a Bichon or you go on what we call the Bichon diet. One bite for me and one bite for each of them so you loose 3/4 of anything your eating at my house. Hot dogs and cheese are a favorite. | ||
| Sherry2 |
In reference to above about 3 or 4 posts about Sabbath, Law, etc. I find it impossible to get into a conversation with an SDA about the law unless their heart is already open, and they have come to the point of brokeness in their life. I've been in conversation with a newly converted one about a week now, and it is impossible to talk to him. He is definetly sure of his own salvation, and supposedly not into legalism, but then it conversationally revolves around the magnificent 10 and how wonderful they are above all the others....and well you know how it goes. I truly believe that until we come to a point of some brokeness in our own lives, God can't lead us further down the trail. Sometimes it just be nice to do the Vulcan mindmeld so they could just "get it" and the awesomeness of Jesus and the New Covenant. Alas, I must go!!!! | ||
| Sherry2 |
I have to share this with you all. Sometimes I find myself still struggling with the Law and Sabbath - every time I do I seem to lose that joy. Anyhow, I thought, I need to talk to a Christian Jew and get their thoughts. I support Jews for Jesus, and was touched when I read the founders story and was surprised that they went to church on Sunday. (I found this story two months after I left the church). Anyhow, I decided to e-mail Jews for Jesus this last week. Here's my letter and here is the response I got. My heart is comforted. MY LETTER: "Hi there. I've read the story of the founders of Jews for Jesus. It was very helpful to me in seeing this transformation in a Jewish family. I am not a Jew, but a gentile. I was raised in a christian church that kept Sabbath sundown to sundown. However, this church also taught that it was the true remnant, and that those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast at the end of time. I was also taught to not wear jewelry, or make-up, to strive for vegetarianism, and vegan if possible, etc. etc. We seperate ourselves from Sunday churches of course. We could be friends but are main goal was to bring them to the truth about Sabbath. For me to decide to leave this church was a huge thing, but I needed to know my salvation was based in Jesus Christ, not a denomination. Many people are afraid to leave because according to their prophetess, this means leaving Christ. I've learned so much about Jesus during this last year. I never knew about the new covenant, even though we had communion at our church. It made no sense when they said new covenant. Now it as though the veil as been lifted that Paul talked about and I see His salvation so free and clear. The thing that is difficult for me to understand, and I was hoping you could help me, is that I no longer feel compelled to keep Sabbath, but have come to see Jesus as a fulfillment of Sabbath in my resting in Him from my own works, and every day belonging to Him as a Sabbath...as Hebrews says "Today" is the day. But am I wrong here? My friends from this old church uphold the Ten commandments as the supreme law, and that for me to break the Sabbath (Saturday) I am defying God even though I serve Him. When I was studying these things out for myself, I discovered that the suzerin way of contracts was to put a sign of that covenant in the center of the covenant, and Sabbath was that sign of the old, and communion became the sign of the new covenant. But maybe I'm misunderstanding my Bible. Can you help shed light? Thank you. Sherry" THE RESPONSE "Shalom Sherry, I really don't know what to add to the insights you have been given through the Holy Spirit. We view the Sabbath exactly as you have expressed so well. To us, Jesus didn't just fulfill the Law; He *is* the fulfillment of the Law. He is our righteousness, *He* is our Sabbath rest. It is clear from the Scriptures that these are matters of conscience about which we are instructed neither to judge nor to allow ourselves to be judged. The Apostle Paul said, "One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth a day regardeth it unto the Lord" (Romans 14:5-6; see also Titus 3:9 and Colossians 2:16,17). Nevertheless, it broke Paul's heart when he found the believers in Galatia deceived by Judaizers, and desiring to place themselves under the yoke of the Law. I don't doubt that it still breaks the Lord's heart today. I have prayed for your friends who remain in bondage, just like so many of the Jewish people to whom our ministry is directed. They have not learned the lesson of Calvary, that it is impossible for sinful men to keep the Law. May the Lord set them free as He has you. Shalom, (Mrs.) Marty Walker Chief Correspondent" Thank you Jesus! :) | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, thanks for sharing this correspondence. It made me feel like crying; what a great affirmation! Colleen | ||
| Kelly |
I've run across a real "problem" in Col. 2:16,17. Adventist have always taught that the Sabbaths mentioned here were ceremonial now they are teaching that other denominations are correct that this really does refer to the "weekly Sabbaths" BUT they still deny that these Sabbaths have been done away with. They are now saying the real problem with other denominations IS that they think the cross finished it all. They are saying that these things as mentioned in vs. 17 are CURRENT shadows STILL pointing to Christ WHO HAS NOT YET COME (Second coming not First). They say that the only thing that was nailed to the cross was our sins. They say that sin is no longer an issue but the law is still in effect. The "new" truth in Adventism is: "Hey you Sunday people are right it really is the weekly Sabbath that Col. 2:16 refers to but you are still wrong in that the Cross did not do away with the law--we are still having to observe these shadows because Christ is NOT HERE YET!" I'm confused, the Adventist say that those verse should be read to say "Let no one judge you.....but the body of Christ" meaning that the church should be our standard on non-debatable things but doesn't Romans 14 clearly state that food and days are debatable. I don't understand how Romans 14 says "it doesn't matter what you do concerning these things" and then for Colossians to say that we have to keep these things (days) until Christ physically returns forever. Can anyone give me some guidance? I'm really beginning to feel that observance of the Sabbath may have merit but this also seems to go against other passages of scripture? I guess what I don't understand is why does the "truth" in Adventism keeping changing and why does it seem that with each "new" slant on Scripture that Adventist are looking at other believers and saying, "Na,na,na,na,na....na...we're still right about the Sabbath!!" | ||
| Doug222 |
Kelly, I can see how you could take that "one" text and make it say that the shadow continues to exist--afterall, the word "are" is present tense and therefore you could make the arguement that Paul is saying that the reality is yet to come. However, to do so would require you to deny the finished work of Christ on the cross. You would have to throw out the entire book of Hebrews that tells us that Jesus is superior to EVERYTHING--he is the fulfillment of the law. I agree with you that it is frustrating when you see the "truth" constantly changing within Adventism, but perhaps what is more frustrating is seeing the constant need to have an exact answer to everything. What you are seeing is no different than in the Catholic Church where the Pope interprets everything for the congregation. In this case, Adventist have realized that their traditional arguement is not as sound as they once thought, so what do they do? They simply change the interpretation, but hold steadfast to "the truth." What they are dong is what I have traditionally done in Adventism. I have made the scripture "fit" my understanding. Now that I have given myself permission to "color outside of the lines (of Adventism), the Holy Spirit is free to give me insight that I never would have noticed before. You mentioned in your post that you're beginning to see that the Sabbath has merit. is that based on this last interpretation of scripture or is it based on other scriptures as well? I don't think you will find anyone here who will say the Sabbath does not have merit. What you will find is people who say that Jesus has become our Sabbath rest and therefore it is not binding on any/all Christians as Adventism teaches. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Violet |
I just know that I never had a "Sabbath Rest" in Adventism. By the time sundown came on Saturday I was exhusted. It seems like now I spend time with Jesus every day and not save it up till Sabbath, because before I was too busy getting ready for Sabbath to spend time with Jesus every day---see the circle? There is no way in today's society we could ever keep the Sabbath, and have every one be Sabbath keepers. But to have everyone spend time with Jesus every day is possible. The Sabbath is the one thing Adventists can cling to and remain "special". But that in its self leads to legalism, because we cannot keep the Sabbath even if we tried, only Christ was perfect. | ||
| Chuckiej |
Doug, Messianic Jews still put a forth a linguistic argument that the Sabbath in Col. 2:16 is not the seventh day Sabbath, but I don't find it all that persuasive. Bacchiocchi has even abandoned that one. The most viable pro-Sabbath interpretation of Col 2 I've seen is found here http://www.messianic.com/articles/paul.htm The argument basically is that Paul isn't speaking against those practices per se, but rather man-made rules concerning them (like as an SDA I was raised to think you could wade in the water but not swim on Sabbath.) In fact, I think the NASB translates v. 16 as "let no man make rules for you . . ." This is bolstered by the fact that the word *nomos* which means law is entirely absent from the book of Colossians. The word translated "ordinances" and "commandments" is *dogma.* Every instance of this word in the NT refers to purely human decrees, except for in Acts when it refers to the decision of the Jerusalem Council regarding Gentiles. | ||
| Lori |
I find one thing wrong with this interpretation of Col. 2:16 and 17 as listed above (the website www.messianic.com) Paul lists these items (food, drink, holy days, new moons and Sabbath days) and then he refers to them as "shadows of Christ". Scripture is clear that the only things that can "shadow Christ" must be without blemish. If Paul was referring to perversions of the shadows then he would have corrected them with the proper observance of these things. Instead he calls what they are doing "shadows of Christ". Therefore Paul can not be referring to these things as just a perversion of the true way of doing them. He has to be referring to them as legitimate observances in order to identify them as shadows of Christ. The "shadows" have become man-made commands in that they are no longer the commands of God for the church age. Have you guys ever noticed how Israel is always referred to as "wife"? The adulterous wife who was never faithful from the very beginning. The adulterous wife has never done what God asked her to--she's always been unfaithful, always sought other gods--God has given this adulterous wife over to her desire. He has set her aside temporarily. See the book of Hosea. The church, the body of Christ is referred to as the "bride"? Why the difference. What is the significance in that? It has to mean something. If we were all to become "spiritual Israel" as SDA say then why would we not be called the "wife" also? Why are we the "bride" of Christ? Does this mean that we are dealt with separately from the "wife"? An honest reading of Galatians (read with the veil removed) places these misinterpretations of Romans 14 and Col 2 back in context. Lori | ||
| Chuckiej |
Lori, What are some Scripture references for the concept that shadows are things that blemish Christ? Thanks Chuck | ||
| Lori |
Chuck, Either I wasn't clear or you misread--there are no scriptures that say "shadows are things that blemish Christ" My point was: Things that are shadows of Christ, things that point to Him are things that are WITHOUT BLEMISH. The conclusion that the observances mentioned in Colossians were corrupted and were something other than legitimate weekly Sabbath-keeping doesn't meet the requirement of being "something without blemish". Only those things that were done as God pronounced them to be done could be called "true shadows" of Christ. Paul identifies these certain things (food, drink, holydays, new moon and sabbaths) as "shadows of Christ". Col. 2:16 cannot be a perversion of true Sabbath keeping (if Paul taught Sabbath keeping)for two reasons. # 1 Immediately after Paul lists items from the old covenant he says, "These are a shadow of things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2:16, 17 NIV.) If the practices of the Colossians regarding the "food, drink, festival, new moon and Sabbath" were a perversion, Paul would not have said these were a shadow of Christ! Here is a scripture reference with an example showing that the shadows of Christ must not be defective. The offered lamb must be "without blemish" (Ex. 12:5)--it was a shadow of Christ who "offered Himself without blemish to God." Heb. 9:14.) It is clear that the New Testament does call these things a shadow of Christ. (Heb. 8:5; 10:1.) It is clear that Colossians 2:16 has reference to the old covenant. The parallel in words and ideas from Ez. 45:17 should not be ignored "And it shall be the princeís part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings, [food] and the libations, [drink] at the feasts, [festivals] on the new moons, [new moons] and on the sabbaths, [Sabbaths] at all the appointed feasts of the house of IsraelÖ" "Sabbath days" in Colossians and Ezekiel both have reference to the Seventh-day Sabbath. When the feast days of the old covenant are listed together, they are listed in either ascending or descending order: seasons, months, days, or days, months, seasons. And #2, if we do make the assumption that Paul taught Gentile Christians to keep the Sabbath, he would have corrected the Colossianís improper Sabbath keeping practice. We find Paul correcting many false teachings in his writings. Does Paul give instruction on how to keep the Sabbath or does he offer reproach to perversions of observance in any of his letters? He does not. But he says that he fully preached the gospel. (Rom. 15:19.) The reason Paul never taught Sabbath observance or gave instruction on how to keep the Sabbath, or corrected those who observed it incorrectly was because it wasn't an issue. Sabbath keepers want to promote the Sabbath because of its association with the law. In all their zeal for the law they are ignorant in regard to when the law ended. The law came 430 years after Abraham. Gal. 3:17, See also Rom. 5:13, 14. The law was in force until Christ came. Gal 3:19. Now that faith [in Christ] has come we are not under law. Gal. 3:25, Rom. 7:6. I have some study notes on different verses that are related to Greek drama--Peter used words from Greek drama to illustrate what the relationship between the law and grace were. I will find my notes about the verse and post them. I think I have posted them on FAF before but I have no idea what thread they were under. |
