| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Grace Ambassador, My apologies are in order. However, on the new topic, I don't think that the one remark, "a person can continue to be a homosexual and be saved," is necessarily incompatible with the "corrected" remark, "they would be saved only if they lived their homosexual lives in celibacy," since the first remark could mean exactly that. There are two different meanings to the word "homosexual" -- (1) one that means "practicing" and (2) one that means "genetically predisposed." Let's give Billy the benefit of the doubt, at least. I have no opinion yet formed on Schuller. I have watched him a couple of times on TV, and I must say that I did not "feel the Spirit" as I do with Rev. Billy. For that matter I don't "feel the Spirit" with Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Garnet Ted Armstrong, Benny Hinn, _______ Crouch, and the guy who said the anti-Christ was a Jew now living somewhere in the world (can't think of his name due to a senior moment, but he gives me the willies). But every time I hear Billy speak I feel humbled and convicted and my faith is ALWAYS strengthened. Not so with very many on TV. I don't know much about Swaggart, but I don't think he was a sorcerer. I feel as though Hinn (sp?) could well be one, though. His "healings" give me the creeps. He comes across to me as one who worships money, a Simon Magus type. But again, these are only my reactions. I have no way of proving these feelings and have no wish to. I just don't watch them any more. I withdraw the un-Christian remark. I misjudged your words. Thanks for clarifying. Forgive my presumption. Many blessings on your ministry in South America. Max of the Cross | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Max: No apologies necessary! I've been reading your writings and by now I have a body of your thinking to know and understand that there was no evil intent in your remarks. And yes, I think Billy Graham was right once he corrected his statement and after he did, I "unchoked" off of the sandwich I was eating when he said it at first! He indeed is a great man of God who is capable of being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and clarifying what he said. As to the others, I can only speak for Swaggart whom I know very well personally. He preached to 40 million people every day in Brazil. It was his face with my voice perfectly sincornyzed to the point that people thought he spoke Portuguese. I know TODAY of real SORCERERS that are preachers because of his ministry being used of the Spirit. I have my opinion on why he fell so deeply in sin but I do not think this is the place for me to disclose. He is a repentant man but, I do not think he will ever have the influence he had. In the 80's he was only second to Ronald Reagan in fame according to TIME magazine. What a dreadful fame that brings a man down. The higher one climbs, the greater the fall. But I pray for him and that ends it! Benny Hymn (his international director) called me when he went to Brasil 8 years ago. He found me here in the USA in a small church. I had been recommended to him by other ministries. (I lived off TV ministries in the past). He wanted me to be his translator. I said that I would charge 1500 US dollars a night, and then felt of God to deny going. I did not go! I do not know why. I needed the money. I believe about 6 nights times 1500,00 is a money that no one can dispense. Today I am glad I did not go and accept. Nothing personal. But I would not interpret for anyone today, not even Swaggart, that somehow preaches differently to the theology I deffend. I believe it is stupid in the eye of men because the money is pretty good. But in the eyes of God is the honest thing to do. I cannot take their money and then, bash their theology in the pulpit. Hope to continue in this gracious interaction with you and all the members of this forum. In Christ's love! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
To all who've been reading this thread: The "the guy who said the anti-Christ was a Jew now living somewhere in the world" was Jerry Falwell. Or, as I'd prefer to say, Jerry Fall-poorly. Of him I know only what I read in the newspapers and see on TV. But he seems to behave exactly like the Christian Nazis in Germany during Hitler's rise to power and the first years of WWII (before the Allies started reminding him of his suicidearm). I think when Bonhoeffer wrote the book COST OF DISCIPLESHIP he was writing about "cheap grace" Christians like Falwell, only in Germany in the 30s and early 40s. Evangelical Christians, no! Fascist Christians, yes! Bonhoeffer was being too mild by using the term "cheap grace" Christians. The Christian right? No! The Christian Reich! What do they have to do with the Son of Man who ate with the Monica Lewinskys and Bill Clintons of the the late 20s and early 30s AD? The One who told Monica, "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and SIN NO MORE"? "Cheap grace Christians say, rather," Go and DON'T GET CAUGHT ANY MORE! That single distinction holds all the difference between cheap grace and costly grace, between evil and good, between Christ and the world. Spiritually speaking, are they not the very ones who read their own sins in the dust of the road, dropped their stones, abandoned Monica to Jesus and slunk away back to their own whores? After all, they weren't "caught in the act," were they? All right, so Swaggart was. But they abandoned him, didn't they? And as far as I know he is, as Grace Ambassador has said, a repentant man. I accept that. But repentance is the very thing that removes one from the ranks of "cheap grace" Christianity. Or, "churchianity," as GA has so aptly put it. I watched and interview of Falwell on TV during the impeachment of Bill Clinton. Question: What would you do if you were caught as Bill Clinton was? Answer: I would immediately resign my post -- meaning NOTHING MORE THAN THAT CLINTON SHOULD DO EXACTLY THAT). I almost lost my dinner. Well, maybe he should have, and maybe he shouldn't. But WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO WITH CHRIST? I'm here. You answer. BIG CLUE: Billy Graham forgave Bill -- I watched him on TV -- and the "go and sin no more" element was clearly there. Nor made he any political comment on whether or not he should resign his post. This one man -- Billy Graham -- revealed Christ, while the other -- Jerry Falwall -- revealed Satan. Sorry if this offends your politics. But this isn't about politics, is it? Therefore, no political hurrangues, please. This is a matter of eternal-life and eternal- death. Heaven and hell! Here and now! Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max, I have had the same feelings as you on viewing Schuller... They do, though, put on a great Christmas show at his church in Garden Grove, CA... the Crystal Cathedral! Real flying angels (on wires!), real camels, donkeys, sheep, horses etc. coming in down the aisles. And beautiful music...:-)) I've been there twice. I hear there's an Easter extravaganza, also, but haven't seen it. I'm sure it is impressive... Billy Graham seems so much more like a "true-blue" Christian to me, also! When you brought up Clinton, it reminded me of a (recorded from last April) C-span show I saw on the National Press Association's dinner honoring Bill Clinton... Did you happen to see this? I didn't see it all, since was just flipping through the stations and came to it. What I did see, though, was appalling considering Bill's "repentance" in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. There were NUMEROUS jokes and sexual innuendos in the remarks at that dinner... emceed by Jay Leno. It was sickening. A number of video clips mocking the investigation of the Lewinsky affair... one making fun of Gary Bauer (showing a quick (totally made-up!) homosexual encounter behind the curtain when he fell off that podium. (Do you remember that incident?), and another vulgar one on Robert Dole's impotence problem and eventual solution... The thing that really bothered me was how Bill Clinton laughed right along with the jokes. (Hillary, too.) I don't think I'm a prude (maybe some would consider me one, since I cringe at so many movies out there! :-)); and I do think some political humor is really funny. (Some from the Bush/Gore fiasco...) But I would find it very hard to laugh at the type of jokes at this dinner if it were myself, or my husband, who had been guilty of such sexual infdelity and immorality.... I would pray that I would have courage to stand up and graciously end that kind of "humor"... I think of Ephesians 5:1-3: "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children; and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." I pray we can always realize and live in this absolutely costly and wonderful Grace!! and live a life worthy of His Mercy... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Bless you always, Cindy, I saw clips on that "National Press Association's dinner honoring Bill Clinton" on TV news shows. Clinton is a politician. What can I say? His repentance would certainly not seem real at that dinner. What he should have done, from my perspective, was have gotten up and prayed for everyone there. He didn't, no, he didn't. He laughed right along with Leno and the rest. Whether or not the humor was funny or not is strictly beside the point. But . . . NIV Daniel 5:22 "But you his son, O Belshazzar, have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this. 23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways. 24 Therefore he sent the hand that wrote the inscription. 25 "This is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN 26 "This is what these words mean: Mene : God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end. 27 Tekel : You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting. 28 Peres : Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians." 29 Then at Belshazzar's command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom. 30 That very night Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, 31 and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom, at the age of sixty-two. Not that this Mede will do any better. His protestations of Jesus Christ being his ìfavorite philosopherî strike me as blasphemy. Our Sovereign rules and submission is in order, Max of the Cross | ||
| Billtwisse |
Closure: Thank you very much, all of you (Milton, Cindy, Max), for your comments. I believe that it is possible to accept someone as genuinely Christian and still challenge their stated beliefs on a crucial point. Milton, I believe that you were exactly right in accepting the translation work for Billy Graham and rejecting it for the others that you mention. The reason is simple: one must recognize the difference between Christian ministries used by God's grace (though possibly wrong on many crucial issues of theology) and ministries that are an outright fraud. For someone like myself, with very passionate views regarding the sovereignty of God in election, some of the expressed views and methods of Billy Graham over the years are troubling. Last century, the views and methods of Dwight Moody were also very troubling for men such as Charles Spurgeon. Yet he still called him a friend in Christ--and WAS one--at all times. This issue today contains nothing different than the disagreements way back then. Max, we will have to 'agree to disagree' on whether Definite Atonement is clearly taught in scripture or whether the extent of the atonement is left to mystery. I agree that many things are unclear based on God's revelation, however, not this. I believe that the best of Christian expositors on the subject have presented objective and credible evidence. You don't believe the evidence is good enough. So we will have to leave it rest there. In light of the above, the remainder of what I have said in this discussion makes sense--based on what my convictions are. The rest of what you have said makes sense based on your convictions. I don't have time to post again for at least a few days. I will conclude with a very profound statement from Gordon H. Clark--which in my opinion is the REAL answer to the question: "what is the future of Christianity?" Two possible roads are before us. "There have times in the history of God's people, for example, in the days of Jeremiah, when refreshing grace and widespread revival were not to be expected: the time was one of chastisement. If this twentieth century is of a similar nature, individual Christians here and there can find comfort and strength in a study of God's Word. But if God has decreed happier days for us and if we may expect a world-shaking and genuine spiritual awakening, then it is the author's belief that a zeal for souls, however necessary, is not the sufficient condition. Have there not been devout saints in every age, numerous enough to carry on a revival? Twelve such persons are plenty. What distinguishes the arid ages from the period of the Reformation , when nations were moved as they had not been since Paul preached in Ephesus, Corinth, and Rome, is the latter's fullness of the knowledge of God's Word. To echo an early Reformation thought, when the ploughman and the garage attendant know the Bible as well the theologian does, and know it better than some contemporary theologians, then the desired awakening shall have already occurred." (New Heavens, New Earth [The Trinity Foundation, 1993, p. 262]) That is the reason why I aspire to be a ploughman and nothing more! I have voluntary laid down my theology credentials a long time ago! I hope to someday approach knowing the Word as well as the ploughman in this slogan does. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Bill, I respect your testimony as heartfelt. For me the issue is still sovereignty, with which I'm sure you'll agree. Remember those "Who's in Charge Here?" funnybooks of the 60s? Well, that's what I'm asking. Question: Who's in charge here? Popes? Curias? General Conferences-in- Session? Union Conferences? Local Conferences? Presbyteries? Sessions? Synods? Councils? Dioceses? Archdioceses? Bishoprics? Provinces? Parishes? Answer: Who makes the rocks cry out? Blessings on you Brother Bill, Max of the Cross | ||
| Billtwisse |
Amen! Blessings on you also, Max. Hope to see you again soon at FAF. --Twisse | ||
| Grosfader |
I would like to contact persons of like mind . . .those who have been saved from cultic delusion and who rejoice in God's glory and grace. I live in Central Oregon, but value internet contact as well as personal contact. I'm not looking for a "church". I think most churches are the devil's workshop. I seek fellowship with believers . . . grosfader@usa.net | ||
| Patti |
Feel free to write me, Grosfader: drpatti@msn.com | ||
| Violet |
I am in Oklahoma, but still just a click away RobTami@prodigy.net | ||
| Lydell |
Grosfader, many of us here can testify to the fact that most Christian churches are NOT the devil's workshop. There are many many fine churches out there. God has a place for you for fellowship. Keep an open mind and ask for His guidance. He'll be faithful to hook you up with some fellow believers. | ||
| Grosfader |
I probably did not make my position clear. I have no bias against churches or belonging to them, so long as one realizes the CHURCH WILL NOT SAVE. Jesus saves. Go to church, realizing it is for religious social fellowship. The devil's workshop is any place where the doctrines of men replace the truth of our God and of His Christ . . .any place where my actions are brought into judgment by other human beings . . .we are HIS WITNESSES, not His judges. Ellen was right the first time, when she said the early Millerites should not organize. Look what happened when they did. The 27 Fundamentals have replaced the Gospel. The General Conference is the "highest power on earth". If you don't heed the Testimonies, you will be lost. Talk about speaking great words against The Most High . . . | ||
| Violet |
Gro, My husband has always said the SDA church is a social orginization. It is like any other group, it can help keep the momentum going and a place to pool resources. The bad part comes in when you have a pastor that gets up on a rainy or snowy morning and announces "look around, these are not the fair weather christians". We live in an area where is snows about 3 times a year. People do not know how to drive or walk on it, ERs are full with broken bones ect. I'm relativly young (34) and don't like to risk it. I can't imagine someone's great grandma getting out, just to prove their dedication to Christ. In response to your second paragraph, the devil must be busier than Santa Clause on December 23, because man's laws have replaced the gospel in the SDA church in my town. The sad thing is they are teaching their children to continue in their path | ||
| Lori |
Grosfader, I think I understand your position on "churches"; it's not a whole lot different from mine. After I left the Adventist church I tried to attend church at a few different places. Ultimately, you come up against each different denominations list of taboos---things that have nothing to do with Christianity! And being that I had already "divorced" myself from one churches heresies it has been impossible to embrace anothers. The other thing that is difficult to find is people who are strictly Christians. Religion can ruin a Christian. And, in this manner I agree whole heartedly that churches are the devils workshop. The devil uses each churches hypocrisies to keep people focused on "how they look on the outside" rather than "how they are on the inside". My children go to a Christian school--this Christian school has just determined that in order to re-enroll each year that you must provide a letter from your pastor. I bet you can guess what the questions are----How often do you attend church? Do you attend prayer meeting? Do you hold a church office?--What they want to determine by this "letter" is your activity in church. They aren't interested in your personal time with God, they aren't interested in your personal spiritual maturity, they are only interested in your "outward appearance". This "letter" is nothing but legalism. This Christian school suffers from the heresy that if you REALLY are a Christian then you will attend church often and that you will hold a church position. It will remain to be seen if we can re-enter next year without a "pastor letter" because we don't have a pastor to get one from and we are not going to start attending church just to get one. I think my motive would be wrong and the requirement of this kind of letter seems to me to be nothing but legalistic. But this is the sort of thing that you get in most churches--you get legalism and where there is legalism there is hypocrisy. Maybe in time these things won't bother me---I know that the wounds of Adventism were deep and that the scars that formed during the healing process are still painful at times. And any heretical teachings "hit" that tender scar and they cause me to push away from the source. Christ, and Christ alone, is the only thing that can ease the pain. He has the healing salve that removes all the pain and even the scar begins to fade away. I think you will find uplifting fellowship here at FAF but I hope you find someone in your area as well. I'm no where near Oregon--I live in Georgia, I'm only 30 minutes from Southern Adventist College in Collegedale, TN. Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lori, If you back up and look at another reason for a letter from your pastor, you might soften a bit to the idea. My kids go to a Christian Church that has NO affiliation with a particular Church. The application wants various letter's from various people including your pastor. The reason for a lot of these questions has been explained to me as a background knowledge of the kids so that the teacher's, councellor's and the rest of the staff know where this child is coming from. The appeal and approach to a kid with problems is different from a background of staunch, regular Church attendance and participation as opposed to one with a background of going to Church only on Christmas and Easter. I would say that there are some schools that will judge the kids by the parents attendance etc. and hopefully the majority that do like my kid's school. As to a Church and Church attendance....I feel that where ever you go, including the best Christian home of the best Christian pastor has its skeletons. Churches are the same way. No Church will be perfect in any of our eyes. I don't agree with the pastor at the Church I attend on every issue. (When this Church was considering him as it's pastor and inquired of Dallas Theological Seminary, they considered him to be one of two great teachers to have come from their school with the other one Chuck Swindoll!!!) There comes a point where you have to overlook some side issues and go for the meat. BUT!!!! If a Church is trying to put you into a bondage again like the Liberty Baptist Church in Las Vegas was trying to do to me, run for your life. This is why I'm really immpressed with a Church that doesn't have a "NAME" attached to it. The EV Free Churches are the ticket to a great gospel teaching, non-critical fellowshipping and supportive place. Anyone looking for a great Church, just look up Evangelical Free Church in the yellow pages. Well, that is my little pointed headed view;-)) Maryann....DTCFE=Deeded To Christ For Eternity | ||
| Nate |
GRO, I have a little more optomism about churches because I have seen God truly at work in some communities. I have become convinced that God is truly active in the whole movement away from denominationalism. Any time I hear a big deal being made over the denomination, I get scared. From John 17, the heart of Jesus is for unity among His followers. Whenever people get territorial and denominational I believe that it is the devils workshop. So I agree with you wholeheartedly there. Not that it is wrong to have a denominational affiliation, but if it is a focus of the organization, there is usually some negative spiritual agenda. On the other hand, One of the most refreshing spiritual movements I have been a part of is the Willow Creek Association. It is an association of churches that are sold out to reaching this generation for Christ. Willow Creek is a non-denominational church but the association has people from all types of Christian groups that attend their seminars. The heart of the gospel commission is what drives this movement. In fact it was when attending one of these leadership training events at Willow Creek in So. Barrington Il. That I began to see how God is moving in such a profound way in churches across this country. It was there that I began to see how far Adventists are from being the one and only true Remnant. I saw more spiritual life there than I had ever seen in Adventism. That is where much of my journey started. I would strongly reccomend visiting there if you can swing it. If not, get online at Willow Creek.org and find a willow creek association church near you and at least give it a shot. Many of the churches are non-denominational, others are still connected to a denomination, but they are learning to keep the main thing the main thing. God bless... In Christ, Nate | ||
| Lori |
Thanks Maryann, it's always nice to hear from you and thanks for trying to smooth my ruffled feathers!!! | ||
| Bob |
Nate: I agree with you about the total importance of "keeping the main thing the main thing!" That is what I love about the church I attend in Corona, CA, Crossroads Christian Church. Some on their staff were previously involved with Willow Creek, and the gospel emphasis is the same. I am a former SDA pastor and teacher (in my youth!) and when I discovered Crossroads with its fervent, constant focus on bringing men and women to Christ, I was in tears every week in gratitude for having found real Christian fellowhip and being in a place where every service brings people face to face with their need of salvation in Christ. | ||
| Nate |
Bob, Thanks for sharing your past as a SDA pastor. I too am a former SDA. The final steps to realizing this came over the past year, though the process has been much longer. I am in a dilema now because I am still pastoring in an SDA church. I am torn bertween trying to change the system, which I am becoming increasingly convinced is not possible, ministering to those under the law while I am no longer under the law, and leaving altogether. The issue is on my mind and in my prayers constantly. I do not want to run ahead of the Lord, but I do not what to drag behind because of my own fears. My church has made so much progress over the years, that I do not want to harm what has happened here. Yet I have had some clear signals that they are not ready to accept where I am theologically. There is a part of me that sees that I might be called to an Esther type ministry... she was careful not to reveal her true identity till the right time. The other side is my total commitment to integrity. So I do not know. I am just praying. Would love to hear about your journey. Any one else with similar struggles past or present. Your imput would be welcomed. Most of all I ask for your prayers. Iam so blessed to be honored by the Lord to be entrusted with the truth of Christ, my Sabbath rest. I know that He will give me an outlet for this message at some point, in His time. I related to your tears as you experienced God at Crossroads. There is such a moving of God's spirit happening right now in churches all across this country. These churches have been set free by the Gospel. They are no longer into denominations, but into the good news. The evangelistic power is incredible. The territorial stuff we grew up with just is not there. In that environment, the Holy Spirit can move without restraint. I long to be part of a movement like that to a much greater degree than I am able to be right now. Thanks for sharing. God bless, In Christ, Nate |
