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Archive through July 21, 2001Lydell20 7-21-01  8:07 am
Archive through July 23, 2001Sherry220 7-23-01  6:17 am
Archive through July 26, 2001Trippllb20 7-26-01  8:49 am
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Windmotion
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, I was looking for a job at a newspaper near where my parents live but not too near (they live just across the border from toledo) so you live in PH??? Wow!! Did you used to attend the Bluewater SDA church? I would definitely be interested in talking to you!!
--Hannah
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa, thank you for telling your experience. It is so encouraging to hear others tell how God helped them to come to trust. He tailor makes every one of our experiences. Isn't it amazing?

Colleen
Joni
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah,
Yes I did go to the BW sda church. You can email me if you want lbuhler@tir.com

Shereen,
There were times when I longed for the day that I was blissfully unaware also. Even now at times it is hard. For instance a older friend of mine invited us to come to dinner tomorrow. ("Sabbath") I love her and her family dearly. She wants me to come to church also. I told her I probably wouldn't but would think about it.

She thinks that we don't come because of the people. It's a small church and very family controlled by a few families. You know the problems in a small church.

It is hard to explain to her that it is not really the people, but the church itself and what it stands for.

So we will go to her home and have a wonderful time visiting, because we love them. Times like these are hard. I pray that God leads, I know He loves them and He has sheep not of one fold. I pray that blessings come from my mouth to them.

Col. 1:9-12 (the whole chapter) is a favorite of mine. "For this reason also, since the day we heard of it we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

"Strengthened with all power according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light."

It is such a blessing to me to know that God, our Father wants us to have knowledge of Him and His Son Jesus Christ. It is a continuing and growing path we walk. It is a blessing to know that He has saved us. He has wiped clean our hearts. He has and He will finish what he started in us. Phil. 1:6 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

Shereen, relax in God's love for you. He does care for His sheep. We, at times wander and wonder but He is steadfast and sure. Whatever faith you have, trust it, it too is from God.

"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe".

In Christ Jesus,
Joni
Darrell
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, thanks for your beautiful post. You probably already know this, but perhaps some lurkers out there do not: In Phil 1:6 where it says "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus", the word for "perfect" means to complete or bring to maturity. In fact, this is the same verb (but different conjugation) as what Jesus said on the cross: "It is finished". Even the context of Phil 1:6 supports this meaning.

I love the way God has made the promised future reality a spiritual reality in the present, for example in Hebrews 10:14: "By one sacrifice He has made perfect for all time those being made holy." Again, perfect is the same word in Greek.
Loyal_seeker
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Friends,

This is my first post to this forum. Please forgive me for being so long-winded.

This is such a new avenue of thinking for me and yet it is almost as old as I am. My main problem with the SDA Church is their placement of EGW on such a high pedestal no matter what the subject is or how much information there is to refute her mistaken ideas, and her own practices, on lifestyle issues as well as some spiritual themes, i.e. the "Shut Door" story.
Your references to the presence of the Holy Spirit in your lives is a great encouragement to me. However, I am a little puzzled by some of the other threads on this site because they seem to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
SO . . . .How can we totally ignore her in the areas of eating of meat, when the world is fast becoming informed, without her input, of the devastating polution in the world of all the foods we eat, not just the meat idea.? (This is just one of my ėissues' with what I have read on the site about people eating pork for instance.)
When I learned that I was a potential Chronic Lympocytic Leukemia victim (since well-confirmed, but am being healed by the Lord as I give Him glory, honor and permission to enter into my life more fully), I heard about George Malkmus, a Babtist preacher <www.hacres.com> who has been studying this problem in relationship to cancer and illness in the Christian world for many years, and the realization that the eating of raw foods, preferably organic if possible, is really the secret to have a good, healthy body. Another FORMER Adventist, Dr. Lorraine Day, <www.drday.com> is also an expert in this field and while I was not helped as much as I would have hoped with these two programs, the Lord lead me to one which has worked very well for me and for which I have written a document, if anyone wants to read it. However, their work is high proof that their programs work for the majority of people in almost any state of ill health,which is in reality a compromised immune system. The program I found uses almost exclusively Fresh Fruit, by itself, which helps the immune system to repair itself in record time and without taking the time and energy reserves necessary to successfully use those two previously mentioned programs (which are very similar, actually).
This is an area, (total vegetarianism) which I cannot ignore, but one which I have not completely been able to incorporate into my own life -- let's face it, I love a good old-fashioned hamburger with all the fixin's, crunchy fried chicken, a Reuben sandwich with the pickle on the side and stuff like that. However, I also know that I take a great risk, especially with the beef products, of acquiring the Mad-Cow disease. This is not EGW information here, this is from the world-wide 'Oprah Winfrey' court case information which the Beef industry has tried to minimize for their own benefit. But in the U.S. and England they continue to use the feeding practices; pesticides, hormone additions, and feeding of other animal(often fecal in nature, i.e. urine to increase the milk production of dairy cattle!) by products, etc., which contribute to this horrific problem, which will only get worse. And if you think that it is only in the meat, I know of one person who died of 'Cruksfeldt-Jakob's Disease' (sp?) i.e. Mad Cow disease in the U.S, having never eaten meat in his whole life, but was a great milk drinker!
So we need to be very careful to take what is good from EGW, as an inspired, at times, writer and leave off what is really 'stupid, i.e., the church's emphasis on jewelry issues, which were not even such a big thing with EGW herself, but were promoted by men who decided that 'the money spent on jewelry should be going into the work' and she somehow went along with it in word, if not in practice when she sent her daughter-in-law a necklace from Australia. This picture was originally printed in the Review, but in later years when the technology became available, the necklace was 'erased'. This is just one of the many unbiblical bones I have to pick with EGW and the Church's elevation of her work. There are many more.
But I fear that throwing out the Sabbath of Creation, reiterated at Mt. Sinai, along with the ceremonial sabbaths given to re-educate the Israelites coming out of 400 years of Egyptian capativity and the many gods they worshiped because of that situation, is going WAY TOO FAR. They needed the understanding that the blood of the Messiah to come was the only thing which would redeem them from their sins. When Jesus Christ died on Calvary, those ceremonies were no longer needed and that is the ONLY thing that was done away with in Galations, NOT the Sabbath of Creation and the Ten Commandments -- otherwise, why would Jesus have had to die for all of the others but not that one? Doesn't make sense to me, either Biblically or emotionally. Saturday is the Sabbath of The Lord My God and is necessary to the salvation of my soul because I know about it, understand it's significance and therefore am responsible to keep it.

[To Mr. Tinker: Of course the thief on the cross was a prime example of one who accepted Christ as his Savior without any of the trappings of the commandments -- he didn't have time to know or accept them, but recognized Who Jesus was and accepted Him at that time. And no, he is not in heaven today as your message seemed to suggest. And, Thank You for accepting me into this discussion forum!]

Jesus Christ reduced the Ten Commandment list to the 'two great commandments' in Matthew 5:18, Matthew 22:35-40 and Luke 16:17, and then proceeded to explain each of them in accordance with the original meanings. But He had no need to reiterate the seventh-day Sabbath commandment (as was suggested by Max in another post as a reason for getting rid of it - How could you EVER come to that reasoning except by deliberate choice?!?) which honors God as the Creator (and BECAUSE IT WAS MADE FOR US, NOT US FOR IT, gives us a much needed day of physical rest!) because that was something that every Israelite took for granted. He did, however, try to remove the burdensome restrictions placed upon it by the Pharisees, (which were exacerbated by the prophet Nehemiah (Chapter 8, I believe) in his desire to keep the neighboring peoples from using the Sabbath in an inappropriate way by bringing in their wares to sell upon that day, thereby using it in accordance with their way of living rather than to respect the Israelites need to honor their God on the one day of the week that was designated as THE Sabbath day in the Fourth Commandment (as differenterated from the ceremonial sabbaths in the Exodus story). [I know, this is just Adventist propaganda to some of you, but that is what my Bible teaches me and I believe it completely. The texts used in the Taylor introductory document seem to me to be taken out of context, and are therefore not applicable as they are being used to do away with the Seventh Day Sabbath!] Again, this needed to be done to re-educate the people because of their falling away from God during captivity. However, Nehemiah instituted some rather nasty practices for punishment which the church seems to have taken into account, and added to, as necessary to be 'right in God's eyes.' Guess even the Bible prophets were not always perfect either!) Our current practice of buying ėtickets' to be used in public restaurants during various conferences is just the height of ridiculousness in my thinking - it has nothing at all to do with the commandment in letter or spirit ń in fact, when I was encouraged to look this up, I was shocked to find that the phrase ėneither buying or selling' was not in the original Fourth Commandment at Mt.Sinai!! I had grown up thinking that it was there - what a revelation! (Shows my lack of memorization skills, duh-h-h!)
However, I do believe that we have every bit as many burdensome dogmas in the SDA Church of today as the people of Jesus time had -- they're just different -- and it is that freedom in Christ for which I am searching. And for His meeting of my financial needs which are many, longstanding and cause me my greatest fear -- that, while He is able, there is something lacking in my life, behavior, or belief system that causes Him to leave me hanging in the air, dangling on a thread so thin that it is about to break.
While I am no great lover of EGW, in fact have not been too enthralled with her since I was five years old and just beginning to read and was told that I 'must not EVER read anything of a fictional nature' I wondered what she thought of the ficitonal, albeit lifelike or lifeshowing stories, parables if you will, of our Lord, Jesus Christ! Never made sense to me then nor does it now. Do I think that it is okay to read all of the garbage out there for consumption -- of course not, but just because it is fictional does not mean that I cannot filter it through what I know of Jesus and His life instructions, take the good from it and throw out the junk. What do you think?
I have a lot more issues I would like to explore with you all, but this is a start, okay?

Thanks, and Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior,

Loyal_Seeker

(From Berrien Springs, MI -- I will reveal myself in due time if/when I feel comfortable in doing so.)

P.S. I related well to the idea that the angels must have waited outside a movie theater in Evanston Illinois, while I was watching Quo Vadis or Cleopatra or one of those old movies, <LOL>!
Lydell
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Loyal seeker, maybe we can help you somewhat. Maybe you are a little puzzled by some things that have been said on the site because you are beginning from the wrong point. I see that you have many questions about health, and the teachings of the SDA church. But those are not the central issue at all.

One comment in particular that you made really stood out:
"Saturday is the Sabbath of The Lord My God and is necessary to the salvation of my soul because I know about it, understand it's significance and therefore am responsible to keep it."

Christ told us in John 11:25 that He is the resurrection and the life. "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." We find in Acts that Paul was teaching the same thing. For when the jailer asked him what he must do to be saved, Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". That was all. Believe and you will be saved. Nothing added. No additional work on our part. No additional requirements. Just believe.

I John 5:11-13 repeats the same message "these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."

Anytime we try to add something as an additional requirement for our salvation instead of relying on Christ's perfect completed work on our behalf, we become frustrated.
Windmotion
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loyal Seeker, to best answer your questions about Ellen White's health message, I guide you to www.ellenwhite.com if you haven't checked it out yet. They show how EGW merely copycatted the health experts of her time. Some of what she says is valid today, much of what she says does not. Regardless, her health message is not her own.
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Loyal Seeker. The message of Jesus' finished work is the center of life and salvation. When you can be vulnerable before Jesus and open all your hurts and regrets and shame before him, even the things you have done that you regret (which may or may not have resulted from things you may have suffered in your life), you find the most amazing thing: they are wiped clean, and Jesus begins to heal your heart from the inside out.

When you experience that amazing forgiveness, when you can let go of your despearate attempt to make your life meaningful and whole (I speak from experience here), when you realize that your salvation is absolutely secure without your ever DOING ANYTHING except accepting his forgiveness and love, those Old Testament requirements fade into the reality of the Living Jesus in your heart. As I began to experience Jesus healing my heart's hurts, my physical condition began to improve as well.

Have you read the story and study on our website by Greg Taylor? If not, read it--it's a wonderful explanation with Bible references of how the New Covenant fulfills and completely replaces the Old.

I'll pray for you as you continue your seeking! You have come to a place where we will hold you in prayer and support your journey toward Jesus.

In His love,
Colleen
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 5:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Loyal Seeker.

I have found that EGW did steal much of her "ideas" on health from others during her time - something we were never told as SDA's but one that can be found out through honest study. As much of her work was plagerised, so were health ideas. I agree that vegetarian eating is beneficial, but strict vegetarianism may not be...that's really not the issue. I've met plenty of very pagan vegetarians who don't want to hurt their fellow "brothers and sisters". So what you eat or don't eat is not the issue..who you worship is...Creator or creation. All pagan cultures have had different ways of worshipping the creation, whether by special days or times, how they eat or don't eat, etc. So do Christians and Jews who serve God the Creator. The difference is in who they serve and why they serve. From that comes the wellspring of their whole lives of who is first, and who do they acknowledge for the life they have.

Sabbath is a wonderful thing to study. Continue in them. As Bruce told me a long time ago on this site...keep studying it..you will truly be blessed. The Sabbath can never be done away with in the same sense none of the ceremonies can be done away with....because they are fulfilled in Christ - meaning they take their whole purpose and symbolism in Christ...He is the revelation of Sabbath, He is the totality of the Laver, the Alter of Sacrifice, the Temple itself, every part of it, every special day...everything is centered and a shadow of the Great Temple - Jesus Christ. Jesus pointed to Himself as the Temple that could be rebuilt in three days, not the earthly temple that had all those wonderful symbols and the Sabbath. Why? Because they were a shadow that pointed to the Now Reality - Jesus Christ. I worship the True Temple and to keep Sabbath means resting in Him for the rest of my life, depending on nothing else to secure my Salvation. Sabbath-rest as spoke of in Hebrews is about that. It's resting 24 hours a day, 7 days a week , 365 days a year in Jesus Christ - it's learning to have everything in my waking and sleeping moments center on Him, not just one menial day a week. It is a lifestyle, and a life given completely to the Creator to worship Him, and Him alone! :) I say this with great joy in my heart. I'm thrilled at the difference this type of living has made for me. I'll share with you something in a bit from Moishe Rosen, the Jew who started Jews for Jesus that I just read this week. You might find that helpful as well.

Blessings as you search. Thank you for sharing your concerns and where you're at. Your open to studying and that is great. Trust me, I know the feelings you can have when you read certain things and they just don't go well with your life's way of thinking. I started here over a year ago, and I'd get out right ticked off and some stuff, and wouldn't come back for a couple weeks. But then, God kept helping me surrendering to studying things out again with openess for being taught, and I'd come back. But this is a very personal walk you are taking with you and Jesus your Lord. It's not what people say or do here that is where it is at. You know that I think. Keep pressing towards Jesus and surrendering to Him and learning. What better time this has been for me then to really get to know Jesus and learn to trust Him in all things. I used to trust more in what EGW said then Him, and I never realized that till I left the church and pursued the Word soley.

God is so awesome is all I can say. So I'm just going to go with gratitude in my heart!!!

Blessings,
Sherry
Loneviking
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really had to smile as I read the responses to Seekers post. The brothers and sisters on this site are some of the truest Christians I've met anywhere. I know of a lot of SDA forums where Seeker would be castigated for his questions--pounced on by the left and the right. Instead, he's here being held up in prayer!

I too will add you to my prayer list, Seeker. All of us formers have gone through what you are going through now. Hang around this site, read the archived posts and the lessons, explore the links to other sites that give more information. Keep studying, keep praying and surrendering to Gods' leading. It will all become clear in time.

Bill
Loyal_seeker
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Friends,

Thanks for the welcome messages! I appreciate your concerns for my issues. I am still in the process of reading Greg and Paula's treatise and while I agree in principle on most of their 'issues' I disagree quite thoroughly in their final conclusions regarding the lack of need for keeping the Sabbath Day as God gave it at Creation. Jesus is, indeed, Our Sabbath Rest, but He did not remove the Fourth Commandment from the Stones and leave the rest for us to pay attention to ń As you all know, it is the ONLY Commandment which says to ėRemember' it. And to forget it is to negate the very nature of 'Jehovah' God,.

Must leave it at that for tonight as I am very weary. I have developed a nasty case of Bell's Palsy from a terribly infected ear and having the use of only one eye makes it very difficult to continue reading and typing. I could not sleep much last night after my response because there is so much more that I want to say, but need to find time to study and develop my ideas in a coherent fashion

Thank you all for your prayers and concerns, (BTW, I am a gal <grin>). Because of my great faith and growing belief in God's faithfulness to me, I am beginning to be more productive in my daily life without the constant feelings of guilt (from our ėdear' EGW) about what I am doing at every given moment of the day. I may say more on that subject at a later date also, but be that as it may . . . G'nite all. Blessings of our Great God and Precious Brother/Savior, Jesus Christ.

Loyal Seeker
Loyal_seeker
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. To Sherry 2, Point well taken on the Health Issues I had mentioned!

Thanks for your good words of encouragment. Blessings, Loyal Seeker
Doug222
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Seeker,
I can not recomend highly enough Dale Ratzlaff's "Sabbath in Crisis." He has done a very thorough study of the Sabbath. The light bulb went on for me when I connected the Jubilee with the innaugaration of Jesus' ministry. Every one of us were at the point where you are now. As you study, you will see the "truth" as you understood it unravel it one by one. The Spirit will not leave you to your own devices as long as you remain open to truth.

In His Grace

Doug
Sammi
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 4:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all - just want to echo Bill/Lone Viking's comments. I too was touched by the gentle, Christ-like attitudes and comments to Seeker's post. Thank you all for your kind spirits and your continuing encouragement in my journey/transition. Love and prayers, Sammi
In_his_service
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loyal Seeker,

Anyone who has been raised in the Adventist movement is always haunted by the "Sabbath Question" for the rest of their life. Satan LOVES to create doubt in your freedom in Grace. For me, the questions were answered in the books of Romans and Galations. In fact, all the writing of Paul. Paul was the consumate sabbath keeper, the complete "law" keeper. He was sent to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles, people like you and me. Read what he says (and doesn't say) about the law and the keeping of special days. It takes many readings of his works, in total and IN CONTEXT, without the benefit of denominational interpretation before you will really understand his message. Ask the Spirit to guide you into all REAL truth. Martin Luther found the pure gospel in the reading of these books and said that they should be read every day by Christians. He said that Romans is so important that, if possible, it should be committed to memory!

Another part of the question was answered when I did a very serious study of the history of the first and second century Christian church, with the question in mind, "Who changed the day.....and when was it changed?" The answers certainly weren't what I expected to find. They certainly weren't what I had always been told through more than 14 years of SDA formal education.

Jesus is the ONLY truth. The ONLY way to salvation. Anything that takes attention away from Him and His perfect sacrifice for you is not right. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your search for truth. It can be a long and sometimes frightening search, but the end of it brings freedom and peace and joy in Christ!

I Know Berrien Well. Enjoy the coming fall colors, while I enjoy the Florida sunshine!

Prayers and Blessings on you Sister

<><
Loyal_seeker
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear new friends,

Again, thanks for the encouraging remarks and suggestions. Unfortunately, I have an earthly life to get in order before the IRS takes over what little financial means my retired husband and I have left. I have not been able to work much for the last 4 years due to Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia. Filing taxes after a demoralizing divorce and years of almost total discouragement took it's toll on my physical/mental activities for nearly 10 years. As I mentioned earlier, I believe God is healing me from the leukemia, but since my most difficult problem with Him during my life has been in the financial security area of my life, He seems to be trying to 'grow me up' in this area Every time I thought I would be able to go back to work and help us get back on our feet, something would go wrong and I could not work. Now, just as I was getting things together for the IRS problems we need to deal with, I have been dealt another physical blow with the Bell's Palsy. So . . . I must learn how to trust in His provision for us no matter what I see and how much the enemy throws at me. The Palsy is getting better now that good medical treatment has been provided by God's providence, and Medicare.

A book given to me just 1 year ago, 'The Tongue, A Creative Force' has been very instrumental in teaching me this process but old EGW tapes threaten not a little to discourage this simple belief in the WORD OF GOD'S POWER. I highly recommend it to you all. This area, I believe, is one of the reasons that EGW has been such a negative force on this church and for the cause of Christ. Her constant harping on 'worldliness', not 'desiring the things of the world' simply demoralized me from dreaming that I could or should ever have nice things in my life or really pursue the career I now know that God meant for me to have. I knew it didn't make any real sense to me intellecutally, but being a very sensitive person and growing up in a home with no small bit of sibling rivalry (1 sister, 7 years older who was my protector until she left for academy and 4 brothers, one of whom is a classic case of true ADHD (but the only one who knows how to make money in our family! who tormented me almost from the day I was born,) leaving me with a deep feeling of inferiority.

Well, now that I have finally begun to realize that God WANTS us to have an abundant life in Him (not JUST spiritually, but materially, at least moderately so, as well), I am really curious to see just how He is going to 'rescue me out of my distresses! Psalms 107) Besides, dear Ellen, just how do you propose that we begin to have funds to cover the work needing to be done in the world to tell the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, if at least some of us do not have the desire and the means to give. We cannot all be totally financially sacrificed to the church all the time and I feel that this is the reason for much of the Loadicean attitude in our church. And am I wrong or isn't the idea of 'sacrifice' an issue belonging to the area between the sinner and Christ alone, not enforced or even suggested by the church organization as I read recently in the Australian post regarding salary issues on another site? And we wonder why we do not have more people willing to work for the organization for pittance wages with overwhelming administrational responsibilities!?!

A lack of BOLDNESS in faith in God's WILLINGNESS to heal is another area which is dealt with in this wonderful book -- which is one of my spiritual advisor's (mentioned below) favorite author sources, as well -- a Pentacostal preacher by the name of Charles Capps.

Please pray for us? I Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I have also contacted my spiritual advisor, whom some of you may know, but I will not divulge his name until he gives his permission or comes on site himself, which he may do in the hopefully near future. He is a first class Bible scholar/researcher and has already dealt with many of the issues that have been raised here. He seems to be open to at least examining the site and the issues raised. I look forward to talking more with him as well as getting my life straightened out (put in order by Lord God, Elohim!) so that I can spend more time with the WORD of God's power.

Shalom, Without Wax, Loyal Seeker

P.S. 'THE TONGUE, A CREATIVE FORCE' by Charles Capps, Harrison House Publishers, is out of print, but can be ordered at most Christian bookstores. ($6.99) I am hoping that my recommendations of this book will cause them to consider reprinting it! <LOL> I tell everybody I know about it, including having just given a copy to Pastor Dwight Nelson of PMC at Andrews.

The following Sabbath he preached a long sermon on 'Raw Prayer' which I have not yet had the privilege to hear but my sister said it sounded like many things he said came from the book. He also quoted from another book on prayer which may say much in the same vein as the 'Tongue' book. He does know about this site as well but I did not have time to draw out his thinking about it. As some of you may know, he and the pastoral staff of PMC are frequent attendees at Willow Creek Fellowship (Bill Hybel's Church, spoken of by Clay Peck, I believe, in his story on this site), north of Chicago and this gives me courage that God is working in a mighty way with highly prominent members of this church who cannot be 'passed over' easily when they get a hold of real truth!

Again, Peace in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loyal Seeker, I sense your eagerness to find truth and answers for the dilemmas of your life. I remember a period of time when I was reading a wide variety of authors on a wide variety of subjects, trying desperately to make sense out of the apparently senseless anxiety and shame and insecurity and bad decisions that defined my life.

Here's my personal discovery--I can only speak from my own experience--about what works to find that elusive peace. It was when I began seriously to read the Bible and pray consciously that God would help me to understand what it REALLY said, that God would break through all the explanations and theology that I had learned and teach me truth from His word with His own wisdom--it was then that I began to find peace.

It took a long time, and God did use much of what I had learned from my previous reading. But the reality is that some of my previous reading had seemed really helpful and good to me at the time, but now I look back on it and realize that there were unbiblical premises in some of those books.

I'm just throwing out this suggestion: tell God you are willing to give up all theological reading for a period of time--say, a month, at first--and read the Bible only. Put aside all other authors, and concentrate on asking God to bless your mind and your spirit as you open his word. Ask him to reveal truth to you. It was studying the Bible that brought me face-to-face with Jesus and his totally completed work on the cross and the resurrection. It was reading the Bible that prepared me for the truth about Ellen White's false prophet status. It was reading the Bible that began to heal the shame and anxiety that always ran like a deep river just below my public surface. It was reading the Bible that convinced me that the Old Testament must be interpreted through the New Testament, the complete revelation of God through Jesus Christ, instead of the other way around. It was reading the Bible that showed me how Jesus indeed IS our Sabbath. The day was a shadow of him. It was reading the Bible that convicted me that I could not live the rest of my life in compromise--loyal to a church that espouses unbiblical doctrines AND loyal to Jesus. A person cannot serve two masters.

After I began to discover Jesus, I began to pray that he would direct me to books that he wanted me to read. Books I had never thought of came to my attention many times at exactly the times I needed their explanations of certain aspects of living in Christ.

God will absolutely direct your journey to him if you surrender your needs to him, allowing him to show you his will. It is unbelievably difficult and it takes a long time to come out of a cult and to begin to live in truth. But God is faithful. We must, however, be willing to give up everything we think is good and right and be willing for Him to teach us. We must be willing to surrender everything--our beliefs, our bodies/health, our relationships, our jobs--to Jesus. As we learn to trust him with more and more of ourselves, he reveals more and more of himself to us and begins to heal the sickness and damage in our lives.

We must be willing even to give up people we admmire as mentors. We need to accept Jesus as our teacher, and he is always faithful to put into our lives the people He wants to be our teachers and friends.

I am praying for you, Loyal Seeker, and for us all. I am praying that we all will grow in trust and surrender and obedience to Jesus.

By the way, nine of the ten commandments (as has recently been stated on this site, but I can't remember who said it right now!) are repeated in the New Testatment for Christ-followers. Only the fourth is not repeated. Istead, the New Testament presents Jesus--the One who said He would be our rest.

Praise God for leading us faithfully and gently--and firmly at times!

Colleen
Loyal_seeker
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Colleen,

Thanks for your words of encouragement, again. Your suggestion regarding letting go of all other theological reading for a time is an excellent one and I will try to do that soon. I had tried it earlier, but could not seem to find the time to concentrate. I tried journaling and still do at times, but became so discouraged that I finally had a breakdown, leading to a prescription for an antianxiety medication -- one which I control and does not control me! It has allowed me to begin to think in a more rational pattern, bringing me out of a lot of circular thinking of which the Bible was a part. I could not understand why God was allowing me to stay so confused and unsettled, but I believe He wanted me to realize that I needed help that I had gotten in past times of distress. Isn't He wonderful in His guidance? Now, I can find the blessings of His Word.

Thanks, everyone for your prayers. One thing that I would like your prayers for: A possible job opportunity has opened up near me and I believe that it is just what will help us out of our financial whirlpool and is something I have been interested in getting into for many years. God's will be done is my prayer.

Without wax, Loyal Seeker
Madelle
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am beginning to suspect that Adventism shares some characteristics with those cults controlled by "the dark side." I know that when people leave Adventism they experience emotional distress over the lies, betrayal, and emptiness as they search for a new belief system--what I would call ordinary distress.

However, if Adventism is more like a "dark" cult, then people who begin to question and break away are likely to be plunged into severe emotional distress that almost resembles, dare I say it, demon harrassment as they struggle to break free.

If you believe in a devil and demonic forces and if you believe that Adventism is a false gospel, then it logically follows that Adventism is controlled by demonic forces. Have I gone too far? Yet the reasoning is valid. It also explains why some people have such horrific experiences as they try to break free.

Hang in there all. The victory has already been won.
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Madelle, I don't think you've gone too far. I believe Adventism, founded on a lie, has a demonic claim on it. The church has never repented for the deception, for the EGW errors that have been deleted and hidden over the years, for the twisted doctrines that keep people from experiencing the joy and freedom of salvation now! If Jesus is not central, if ANYTHING is tied to salvation besides faith in Christ, it is another gospel.

Sabbath is the center of Adventism. It is still considered part of a fully-informed believer's life. Adding anything to Jesus' fulfillment of the law by his life, death and resurrection is Galatianism.

In short, Paul says if anyone, even an angel fromn heaven should preach a gospel other than the one he had already proclaimed to them, such a person should be eternally condemned. (Gal. 1:7-9)

I believe you're right, Madelle. People who grow up in Christian churches but experience an awakening later in life when they discover the New Covenant do not suffer confusion, grief, withdrawal, fear, and shunning by their fellow church members. The fact that Adventists do indicates that the hold on them is dark, and it is far more than habit or culture. The hold on them is a spiritual hold. Satan does not let his victims of deception slip away easily.

Praising God for calling us and redeeming us an setting us free,

Colleen
Richardhardison
Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen I've seen people in every type of Church you can name who suddenly discover the new covenant find themselves rejected by that Church. It hasn't mattered what the tradition, people operationally tend to come to the conclusion that salvation itself is earned in some fashion. This is a trait of human nature which causes us to believe there is no free lunch. Baptists are just as vulnerable to this as Methodists.
Lori
Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. The lifestyle of the believer under the New Covenant is not based upon any religion. And those that do not conform to "a list" of do's and don't are rejected by those that do, no matter what denomination.

I left Adventism after discovering the New Covenant, thinking that I would be joining the beliefs of those who were in other denominations. WRONG! Many things these denominations "support" are just as legalistic as the things Adventist support.

The lifestyle of the follower of Christ is totally unique! It is not based upon worldly values or religious values.
Richardhardison
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly! Faith produces values, or better yet brings us into line with what pleases God, but it is not the values that result in salvation. We are saved by faith and indeed, as Paul expressed in Romans 4:9 "Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness." James showed the relation between faith and works in James 2:18 "But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." In other words, faith produces works because you are showing what you believe. Too many of those who have a list of dos and don'ts think those works earn salvation. I've seen this among Once saved always saved types as well as Wesleyans. Too many of those same people show their internal characters by their judgemental attitudes when people fail. The Christian who sees a brother/sister fail will help restore. The poseur will condemn and ostracize. Ostracism is to take place only when an individual returns to open sin and refuses to abandon sin, otherwise restoration is in order.

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