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Doug222
Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really find it hard to believe that there are that many Pastors who KNOW the truth, but are intentionally being deceptive. Pastors are people just like you and I. Acknowledging truth is a process--particularly when it contradicts those beliefs that you have embraced for many years (and in most cases, decades). As such, it may take months, years, or decades for a person to let go of their security blanket, even when you know their security blanket is not that secure. There is always a nagging feeling in the back of your head that says, "what if they are rights?" At some point, you become convinced that God has removed the veil from your eyes. Even then, most people cannot just"jump ship." Most of us stand at the crossroads and ponder the situation for a while. Only then do we make a choice to either stay or go. Unfortunately, a Pastor must continue to minister while he is going through this valley of decision. As many of the Pastor's on this forum will attest, once you've accepted the fact that God has removed the veil, it is a very difficult situation, and one in which any sincere shepherd would not be comfortable continuing to teach and preach untruths. Anyone who does may have some ulterior motives for being in the ministry in the first place.

So let's be careful about judging the motives of Pastors who may have reached the same level of understanding that we have. I know it seems outrageous that anyone (especially a Pastor) could believe and teach some of the deceptions of the church, but all we have to do is remember how blind we were at one time and then continue to pray that God would remove the veil from their eyes.

In His Grace

Doug
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, you make a good point. Last year when Dale Ratzlaff came to Redlands and spoke, a made a statement that I'll never forget: "There are only two kinds of Adventists: dishonest and deceived." I think he's right.

I know there are pastors who do know the unbibilical reality of the church. Whether or not they actually admit to themselves that they are perpetrating a lie, I don't know. I attended a church about 15 years ago with a pastor who was very bright, had a doctorate from a non-SDA seminary, and did not teach traditional Adventism. He told his Sabbath School class that when he was at the seminary at Andrews, he had profesors who told the seminarians about the problems with the SDA distinctives, especially, I gathered, the IJ, etc. Those professors, though, told the students that they must not tell their church members about these problems or they would lose faith.

This particular pastor, however, did not move toward an evangelical position. He was actually on a pretty steady move into liberal theology. I found myself increasingly uncomfortable with his metaphorical treatment of scripture and his somewhat psychological interpretations of good, evil, etc.

I'm not surprised, actually, at the responses Andrew mentioned above when he asked questions.

On the other hand, I know there are Adventists pastors, perhaps more now than ever, who are convinced or are becoming convinced of not only the lie behind Adventism but also of the truth about Jesus and the reliability of the Bible. Like Clay Peck (mentioned on another thread) and his mentor Richard Fredericks--to say nothing of Dale Ratzlaff amd Mark Martin--they are responding to truth, and they are born again. God is leading them out. When a person is born again and has given his or her life to God completely, God is faithful to show that person when to leave and how to leave. Sometimes family members are not ready at the same time; God works with each person and within each marriage to glorify himself.

I feel stongly that we need to pray for such Adventist pastors. I know there are several in this position right now. Sometimes they even lurk on this forum! We also need to pray for their families and for God's love and convicting truth to hold and surround them. God is so faithful to give us what we need and to surprise us with fellowship and meaningful work when we are loyal and faithful to the truth he reveals.

We are all in his hands. I pray for those who are struggling with the loss and grief and sadness of leaving. I understand it so well.

And I praise God for his completely unexpected and inexplicable blessings! He is so good. There is a great song on the CD "Revival in Belfast". The chorus says this:

"Shout to the north and the south;
Sing to the east and the west;
Jesus is Savior of all,
Lord of Heaven and Earth!"

Amen!
Colleen
Nate
Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an SDA pastor who no longer believes the position of the church, there are a number of factors that cause even a true seeker for truth to move slowly. One is that many of us have worked very hard to bring the Gospel to our people and have not been teaching falsehood. Our churches have taken huge strides toward a grace based ministry. My Church is an example. It has moved to an outreach oriented grace community. The old styles of evangelism are not taught or modeled. There are not dress police or potluck patrols around anymore. There is a fresh moving of God's spirit. We do not teach the investigative judgement. In fact most of our elders do not believe it, at least as the church teaches it. We do not believe that the SDA church is THE remnant, though there are some that think it has a remnant message. The church has taken all kinds of criticizm from the surrounding SDA churches for its open door approach to the ministry. It has been blasted for being a "Celebration" church. It has been called liberal by those who have no idea what a liberal really is. God is at work here. We almost never use EGW in any public setting or privately either. We have a number of people in our church who have publicaly disavowed any belief in her writings whatsoever.

My personal journey has led me to see that the Sabbath is an unnecessary hoop to spreading the Gospel. But that does not mean that this church is not going forward. The issue for me is does God want me to move on out of a system that makes churches like ours stiffled in outreach. It is more the system than the local church that poses the biggest problem. There is so much negative press associated witn the name SDA. It keeps people away.
But in this church there is a big allegiance to the Sabbath still. The truth is that is where I was before a few of my friends mentioned in previous letters left. It got me asking questions and studying. Then I started noticing how God was working so profoundly in so many churches besides the SDA's. How could they be in rebellion against God and be blessed in such a marvelous way? So in my local church, I have a gentleness toward those who do not see it yet. This does not mean that the people are rigid with Sabbath, or even judgemental. They are not. But there have been clear indications for me that they are not ready for that move yet.

So My dilema as a pastor is what is the best for the flock that I have been led to lead into a new style and scope of ministry as well as the Gospel center. Am I to stay and keep being honest with those who ask questions in private settings but avoid making an issue in the large settings until God gives me clearance to move into a more public arena, or do I move on, or do I make an issue of it right now and split an otherwise growing and becoming more healthy church?

These questions weigh so heavy on me that the thought of losing my livlihood is hardly a thought in my mind in comparison. I have told the Lord I am willing to do what ever He leads me to do. I have sent out resume's to people I trust who may have some contacts. I am telling the truth about my convictions in settings where I am asked and have the opportunity to share privately. I do not teach anything in any setting that I do not believe. The rest is in God's hands. I pray that if He wants me to be a slower agent of change, that I will be given the grace to be patient. The easiest thing for me would be to take a study leave and move on for a while. But the finances eliminate that possibiblty. The implications of each option are staggering. I have a fairly large church and there is a responsibility that comes with a decision like this.

Perhaps this will explain from a Pastor's perspective just how complex this is and why I have not just jumped to a quick decision. Also I have had to wait till my wife reached similar convictions from her own study as Coleen mentioned.

Thanks to all of you who are praying for me and for my family.

God bless,

In Christ,

Nate
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Nate,

I haven't been following the Forum very much lately, but have read a few of your post's over the last few weeks. I can hardly imagine the tug of war you are dealing with.

With your description of your circumstances, it almost seems that God is leading you to stay there, atleast for the time being.

God doesn't make mistakes and we are where He wants us or can use us at all times if we are willing. You do seem willing!

In a fire, some firemen are on the inside helping victims out and other firemen are on the outside helping those that are out. Both are extremely important.

Like the firemen that are on the inside, there is a time to get out if the structure is unstable or the fire is too hot. A dead fireman is not usually as usefull dead as he is alive.

Your Captain will make it clear to you when the structure is about to collapse or the fire too hot. Keep you eyes and ears tuned to the Captain!

Feel free to e-write anytime.

christyoureternallife@hotmail.com

Maryann...IBC=Insured By Christ
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nate, many of us are praying for you. Through our protracted, step-by-step leaving, Richard and I always knew when God was prompting us to make our next retreat. When the time came for us to formally cut ties and leave, we knew for certain that the time had come, and we both experienced deep peace about it, even though there was (especially for me) deep sadness at the loss of social ties.

Leaving officially for us included my resigning from an editorial postition with Adentist Today. I had clear confirmation when the time was right. I can't speak for others--Clay, Richard Fredericks, Dale, and Mark had other sorts of complications. But I do know that God confirms his will and his care. I also know he loves and cares for the congregations of pastors who leave.

In following Clay's and Richard's stories, I saw how their congregations suffered and even split, but I also believe that God wants to bring all of us to the place where we choose to identify only with him. He leads each church member on such a path when he leads the pastor to integrity.

Oswald Chambers makes the point that when God leads us to himself, the fallout is usually harder on those around us than on ourselves. But, he comments, that is the concern of God. Jesus wants to be everything to those in our lives as well as to us.

Praising God for his timing and his faithfulness,
Colleen

P.S. Richard (my husband) asked that I mention that he will be registering new forum members soon, and he apologizes for the delay. Life at the Tinkers' has been a bit fast-paced and packed with deadlines lately, not that an excuse is needed or even helpful!
Sammi
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone, first of all let me thank you for allowing me to share in your journeys via this forum. I've been reading this site for a few months now, and have enjoyed it and received encouragement from it. I appreciate the sensitivity to other opinions and ideas, the openness, and the fact that many of you bare yourselves to us, many or most of us strangers. I have seen mostly positiveness, some negativeness, but much much less than I expected. I'll admit, when I first came to this site I was on the defense and was very pleasantly surprised. The reason I'm here, and this was very scary for me, is I want to thank Nate for sharing his experience and journey, and share with all of you that he has described my church to a T! I mean, his church is definitely my church (not literally, at least I'm pretty certain not.) I grew up in a pretty typical legalistic SDA home, and have been damaged by it, as it seems we all were. But I've been a little saddened and disappointed that it seems almost nobody else has had ANY kind of positive experience. I left the church for many years, and came back a few years ago after undergoing a personal crisis. I found the SDA church to which I currently belong to be extremely Christ-centered, gospel focused, and for the first time in my entire life I began to understand the gospel. I know of at least three churches (counting mine) in my vicinity where this is the case. Ellen White is not "taught", the only gospel taught is that Jesus through His blood is the source, the only source, of our salvation. Anyway, I have been blessed by this website, but as I said it's been a little saddening to me that it seemed none of you have experienced an SDA church where the true gospel is preached (I realize this is separate from the problems in the organization.) Moving on, I totally understand Nate's dilemma, I love my church, but I'm questioning the Sabbath issue, and have already questioned most others important to SDAs, but continue to be confused about the Sabbath. I know I can stay at my church, where I'm fed each week and where Christ is the focus, but I too feel like we are so "stifled," as Nate says, in gospel outreach, and although most of the membership is "healthy," there are of course those who are not, and we continue to have problems and internal conflicts because of music/worship style, and other SDA issues. Anyway, I suppose I'm rambling. As you are all praying for Nate, would you please pray for me too? I don't know where God is leading me. I'm so confused about the Sabbath. Just when I think I am at peace about it, I'll read something which pushes me in the other direction. See, to me you all sound so incredibly smart and well studied, intellectual, and I basically feel pretty dumb. I read one thing today and feel this way about, then another thing tomorrow and want to change my stance. When I read God's Word it is usually pretty clear to me, but then I run into the typical "problem" texts that I've read many times on this forum like the "saints keeping the commandments of God", and Jesus not coming to do away with the law, etc. I certainly know the Sabbath is not a requirement for salvation, but... ? Well, I need to sign off now, I'll be out of town for a few days, but will be back next week. Again, thanks for sharing, and thanks for hearing me! Sammi
Sherry2
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for sharing, Sammi. Welcome to the forum. Yes, I think the experience of a grace-based SDA church is a rare one. The question of the Sabbath is certainly the most ingrained thing for us isn't it? Amazing to me, because it definitely seems to have replaced Christ in the SDA church. I have found several Sabbath-keeping churches (SAT.) and I haven't found one yet that doesn't have some arrogance to themselves because they keep "God's True Day".....It absolutely sickens me. But the wrestling does go on. If you haven't read "Sabbath in Crisis" or "The Lord's Day" (both available at Dale's site) I suggest you read them. Sabbath in Crisis is like a Bible study looking over texts we "never saw" in Adventism. I was sort-of in shock when I first read it. The Bible says that? And I'd go looking up stuff like crazy. Basically I read through entirely Ex., Lev. Deut., Heb., Col, Acts., and Gal. as a result...just studying and studying. Be a Berean. Study for yourself to see whether these things be true. I can share my stories and what I've learned, but nothing will impact your life so much is letting the Holy Spirit teach you Himself, and pouring your heart out in the Word. It will enrich you greatly.

Anyhow, welcome, and blessings to you.
Therese
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Sammi,

I'm so glad to hear you belong to a healthy, well-functioning SDA church. With the pure gospel message, SDA can minister and outreach to people in ways that other churches are not experienced with (health, education, certain ministries). Let's hope your church is an example of a trend and not an anomoly in SDA.

I didn't grow up SDA, but joined 20 years ago. The SDA church I started with was a start-up church (90% new believers) and was zealous for the Lord. Outreach was number 1. We all did it. It was a very spiritual church and mostly grace oriented. It did not start out using EGW much. It grew from about 10 people to nearly 200 in 4 years. It was a very good experience for me and my family. It helped to solidfy my Christian experience. As more and more EGW was introduced, the congregation's focus turned inward (perfecting character, adding more of the dietary and lifestyle rules and wanting to impose them on others, etc.). The outreach stopped and the church became more legalistic.

I moved and joined a long established SDA church. It was pure culture shock! We thought we could change the church we had just joined, but after about 10 years, we gave up.

After being exposed to some very grace oriented, non-denominational churches which provided support to us during a very traumatic time in our life, I began to question who were God's people and what is really important to God.

I've stopped attending SDA church for 9 months now. I have been re-examining SDA doctrines and am finding a lot of error. But like you, I am not sure about the Sabbath. If God wants me to keep it, I will. But if not, I just want to move on. There are no grace-oriented SDA churches near me. I am being fed by the non-denominational churches I attend.

It was nice to meet you. I hope you will continue to post.

Nate is such a good teacher. Nate, I hope you will post more and help us sort out the Sabbath issue out.

Therese
Madelle
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A new voice heard from -- I'm a 3rd generation SDA; my father was a minister, mother a church school teacher (as was I).Ý I was educated in SDA schools from 1st grade to college.Ý (I start out like many of the "stories" I have read.)Ý I have never been comfortable with Adventism.Ý I never liked most of the people, never felt good enough, was always just a little rebellious, yet still wanted to be part of the group. Always wanted to be accepted by Adventists, but never really was. Reading the testimonies almost made my skin crawl--so hypermoral, judgmental, nit-picky, and neurotic. But I always assumed it was me--always assumed it was Truth.Ý

But now I know that my instincts were always right.Ý (How quickly I condense my 55 years of life into a few short sentences.) The last 2-3 years have been difficult. It's wonderful to be free from the cult, but I don't know what I believe any more. Trying to separate my beliefs into cultural Adventism, Ellen White, and the Bible has been unsettling to say the least. I used to know--now I don't.Ý And I'm one of those intellectuals who just HAS to know.

And maybe that's the whole crux of it. I have had a massive paradigm (worldview, philosophy) shift and it hurts--because I don't have a new paradigm yet. And on top of that, there is the anger that comes from wondering how much my life was affected by having parents who raised me in Adventism. I can't get those years back. I was lied to, made to feel inadquate, and trained to be judgmental and hypercritcal. I don't like that about myself, but there it is.

Now, about the Sabbath. I worshipped for a while with the World Wide Church of God. They became too secular in their worship for me. I love Bach on the pipe organ for my worship--it's just my preference. And they started moving into the idea that Sabbath is Jesus' rest. I don't know what to believe about the Sabbath because the Sabbath was in the Garden before there was a need for a saviour. So I keep thinking it is separate from the "plan of salvation." I don't really "keep" any day. The only thing I won't do on the Saturday now is work for money.

At this point, most of my needs are for emotional, psychological healing. I have found myself very very frightened/anxious the last year. Couldn't figure out why. I've always been one of those "strong women." I realized just this week I was scared because I had given up my identity, my belief system, my history, and now I didn't know what to do or believe. It IS frightening. But just knowing that has made a big difference.
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Sammi and Madelle! I certainly identify with the feelings of lack of identity and the confusion over the Sabbath!

I have to echo Sherry; if you haven't read Dale Ratzlaff's Sabbath in Crisis and The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists, you need to. Those books were central to my understanding what the Bible actually teaches. The Sabbath, I found, didn't actually make sense to me until I understood that the New Covenenant really is just that--NEW! Adventists taught that the old covenant and the new covenant were just different expressions of the same thing. That's not a biblical stance. The reality of the New Covenant is astonishing--that was my paradigm shift! And Adventists don't teach the New Covenant biblically.

My biggest hurdle, for a long time, was Sabbath at creation. When I began to study the subject myself, I began to see that at creation, God rested; there was no command for humans to rest. There was no need for humans to rest; they came from God's hand with living spirits connected to him. They had not yet died spiritually. They were living continuously in rest in God. God was the one who had done all the work; he was the one who rested--and his rest day had no beginning or end--no evening and morning--as did the other days.

When humanity sinned, they died spiritually. Their spirits were disconnected from God, and they entered spiritual death. They were no longer in God's rest. Until Israel and the Ten Commandments, there was no biblical command to keep the seventh day holy. When God gave the fourth commandment, it was not given as a "test". It was a sign of his covenant with them. Sabbath, which means rest, was God's way of re-introducing his rest to his people.

For one day out of every seven they would stay in their tents, do not work, light no fires, ignore the pressing demands of harvest and lambing and planting, and let God bless them. They would be more prosperous than their pagan neighbors who had to work hard to please their gods. They would be more successful and prosperous than their neighbors, and neither they nor their neighbors could give them the credit. They took a day off each week! While the pagans toiled, the Israelites rested one in seven.

Only God could receive the credit for the Israelites' success. It wasn't their hard work that made the difference! The fourth commandment was to teach Israel about rest in Christ. He does it all--he takes full responsibility for us, his people!

When Jesus came he fulfilled the law and all the old covenant. He became the sacrifices; he became the offerings; he became the high priest; he became the sanctuary; he became the presence of God among us. He became our Sabbath. He did what the old covenant could never do; he erased the debt of sin AND reconnected all who believe in him to God! We can be alive in him now. Our spirits enter eternity when the Holy Spirit indwells us and gives us a new birth and a new identity. We live in connection with God once again. We enter God's rest.

Hebrews 4 is very clear that TODAY there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. That's not every seventh day--that's TODAY!

Yes, the seventh day is the biblical Sabbath. But that Sabbath is a shadow of the true Sabbath--Christ--who has now come! (Col. 2:16) Jesus has completed our salvation; we can be spiritually alive in him, one with him and with the Father (see Jesus' prayer in John 17), and we enter his permanent rest, not a weekly rest. The Sabbath is not about time; it's about rest in Christ.

Welcome again, Sammi and Madelle. I will be praying for you. Finding true freedom in Christ is completely life-changing. It's even worth losing everything I thought was ME. Jesus is so faithful to restore the years the locusts ate and to redeem our pasts when we surrender them to him. Even our deception can become a place in us where God's presence makes us new. What Satan meant for harm, Jesus means for good.

Praise him for truth and healing!

Colleen
Sammi
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 3:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Sherry, Therese, Madelle, and Colleen for making me feel so welcome. I will definitely read "Sabbath in Crisis" as Sherry and Colleen have suggested.

It's wonderful, at least for me, to see there are so many with similar experiences and the same background to share with. Although my current church is very Christ centered and gospel focused, and although a few years back I "discovered" the truth about the gospel and had hoped to leave all the legalism and arrogance behind, of course growing up SDA, and attending SDA schools, it is still a constant struggle with all that old garbage I carry within me (oh, the feelings of guilt and unworthiness!)

Colleen, your comments have greatly inspired and encouraged me, God bless you and I thank you.

I'm headed off out of town for a few days of relaxation, but can't wait to return and get to know all of you better. Thank you again for your kind spirits and prayers. Sammi
Lori
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 5:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sammi and Madelle,

Your struggles with the Sabbath "truth" are all too familiar. I had an extremely difficult time with it. One day feeling it WAS important....the next day reading something and deciding it made no difference at all. Back and forth, back and forth. My inability to "make a decision" was causing me to feel mentally unstable--something I had never experienced before. It was frightening. It was at this point I knew if I didn't make a decision based on sound doctrine that I was going to "lose my mind".

There are confusing statements about the Sabbath. But they are only confusing when you take them out of context.

I challenge you to take those confusing texts and read 3 chapters of scripture that surround them. If you do this simple thing most of your confusion will be gone.

For months and months after I made the decision that the Sabbath wasn't an issue and that it was not part of the Christian way of life I was tormented by the song "Don't forget the Sabbath" everytime I showered. LOL It's funny now, but it was unsettling at the time. You see, I had placed all the "texts" in context and the devil had no other tool to use on me but this little song.

My promises that I could claim when I was troubled by the Sabbath were Colossians 2:16,17 and Romans 14.

I had trouble with that verse "keeping the commandments of God" also but if you carefully read 1 John you will find that he leaves no confusion at to what commands he is referring to. I John 4:23 says, "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us".

Continue to search the scriptures, as you search you will find the incomparable riches of God's grace and your confidence in God will grow. And because of this confidence in God you will find strength!!!!
Doug222
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Sammi and Madeline,
Allow me to add my welcome. As you can see, you are certainly not alone. Many of us have experienced (and still are experiencing) the same doubts you expressed. Personally, I have arrived at the same conclusions that Colleen expressed above. The Sabbath was created in the Garden of Eden as the crowining glory of God's creative and redemptive work. It was created at that time in order to fulfill Hebrews 4 where the writer commands us to "rest from our own works" in the same manner that God rested from His works. Essentially, God is saying that everything that is needed for your salvation was completed at creation. It was done! Finished. On the 7th day, God entered into a perpetual rest. The Sabbath was a sign of that rest. As Colleen stated, there is no mention in Genesis of a command to keep the Sabbath. In fact, the Sabbath is never mentioned again until the Children of Israel had been delivered from Egypt. As they were in the wilderness, God provided them Manna (Exodus 16). Moses gave them instruction about collecting the Manna, and gave them specific instructions about collecting the Manna on the 7th Day. If you look at it, he is explaining it to them as though they had never heard of it before. Some have argued that the reason for this is that they had just come out of slavery where they could not observe the Sabbath. There is no Biblical support for this position. (You will notice that much of Adventism's theology is based on speculation and conjecture, as opposed to what is clearly stated in the Word of God). Moses is the writer of the first five books of the Bible. If the Sabbath had been instituted or observed earlier, he certainly would have stated it. No, I believe he gave specific instructions because the Children of Israel had never observed a Sabbath before. Now, here is something I came across this past week that confirms for me that the Sabbath is the sahdow that points forward to Jesus. The first mention of the Sabbath is in conjunction with the manna experience. Now, look forward to John 6. Jesus states He is the manna that was provided to the Children of Israel in the desert.

You mention that you're not sure what to do with the Sabbath. There is nothing you have to do with it. You can continue to observe it if you choose. However, if you are observing it from sundown to sundown, and have a long list of do's and don'ts attached to it, i would have to say that you are not observing the Sabbath. You have not entered into His rest. Under the New Covenant, in order to observe the Sabbath, it would have to be a time that YOU set aside to spend with God in a very personal way. It has nothing to do with the law. It has nothing to do with the mark of the Beast. It has nothing to do with a requirement. It is something you choose to do in order to nurture your relationship with Him. I think when you observe the Sabbath in this manner, you will experience a blessing that you never found possible in Adventism.

Personally, I still worship on Sabbaths. However, I am much less rigid about my "obsrvance" of the day. I also attend a first day church on Sunday--because I feel I am fed better there. I guess you would say that I am in transition. The wonderful thing about it is that I know that I am on a personal journey and that no matter where I am in the process that Jesus accepts me unconditionally. This knowledge provides a fertile ground for spiritual growth.

I praise God daily for bringing me into his wonderful Grace.

Doug
Therese
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Madelle,

Glad you're with us!

Sherry2, Colleen, Lori, Doug -- thanks for the insights. It helps!

Therese
Trippllb
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been lurking on this board for about a month and have been warmed by the patience and warmth exhibited here. I come from a background that is similar to many of the stories I have read here. I am 30, born and raised 3rd generation Adventist (funny how that 3rd generation thing used to be a bragging point). My Grandmother was converted into the SDA church in the early 1900's. My father is an SDA bible teacher in SDA schools, I was schooled in SDA schools from 1st grade through college, I have 2 uncles who are SDA preachers, and the list goes on. Since my Dad was a teacher in the SDA school system, I have had the priviledge of attending many of the schools and many of the churches across this great land. The one thing that I found they all had in common was that I never felt comfortable there.

Growing up I always felt that there was something 'wrong' with the rules and regulations I had to live by. It never made sense that my family piled into the car on a Saturday afternoon and drove to a town where we weren't known if we were going to eat at a restaurant on the Sabbath. It just seemed to me that a 'loving God' wouldn't restrict us like that. But then again, it had to be me, right? When I hit my teenage years, I didn't live by the rules at all. I just got better at lying about living by them. It finally just culminated by dropping out of church life altogether.

I haven't gone to a church of any kind in 12 years. I always had this horrible feeling of impending dread in the pit of my stomach when I thought of going back to an SDA church, but attending a Sunday church was signing the salvation seal of doom. Or so I'd always been told. I have felt God tugging my heart strings for a few years to return to church lately so I decided to pray for him to help me to come to some answers. I went on a quest to determine if I believed what I believed because I believed it, or if I believed what I believed because it was what I had always been taught. I knew that God's plan for my life did not involve me never getting into a church family ever again.

Well, have I ever been amazed at how he works. I have since come to realize that I absolutely believed what I believed because it was what I had always been taught. Then the wind came out of my sails when I realized that I no longer had a foundation to stand on (shaky as it may have been.) God led me to the foundation of grace and has taken me step by step from there. I have gone through a process of taking each core SDA belief, turning it inside out, flipping it over and giving it a good look in the magnifying glass. One of the things I've determiend so far is Ellen White is NOT in my belief system anymore. She has, however, become a great measuring stick to measure my beliefs by. I take the belief off the shelf, compare it to the Bible, put it the EGW acid test and if it passes, it goes back on the shelf. If I find it fails the EGW test and/or is not in the bible, the circular file gets a little bit bigger. I've been so amazed to find how immersed EGW was in my belief system. And I am loving the feeling of freedom that comes from the lack of Ellen G. White in my life and the way the love of God feels now that I am under the blanket of GRACE!

It's strange how God works. I started looking at the Sabbath issue first, he completely knocked me off track and had me look at everything else and I have finally come full circle, a new SAVED person looking at the issue I started with yet once again. The difference this time is that it just doesn't have the teeth or the power it used to. And like many of you, I'm still struggling to know where I stand. Just when I think I can toss it to the side, there is always that nagging tug that I feel in my heart when I see verses like Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." One moment I am able to dismiss the Sabbath, then the next this verse (my nemisis) comes back to haunt me. If someone could provide the link to the 'Sabbath in Crisis' I would be grateful and any advise would be welcomed.

In the mean time, thanks for the great posts. I've been able to silently glean a lot of great advise while lurking on this board. I look forward to growing in Christ with you all.
Madelle
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen
Oh my! I've just had a "White Moment!" The idea that the Sabbath was always kept, that it was not new when presented in the wilderness--that's a belief Adventists got from EGW. You're right. One more step in separating things out. It happens far too often--begin to think something and then ask, "Is that Bible or EGW?" It's like those old Memorex commercials. "Is it live or is it Memorex?

And

Trippllb, there are just too many common themes in these postings for coincidence--SDAs in the family for several generations, close ties with denomination employees (yes, familiarity DOES breed contempt), feelings of guilt over a perceived lack of perfection, guilt over having questions. The feeling, "These are NOT my people. But they're the only people I have." . . . . and the list goes on.

I was a senior at La Sierra Academy taking the senior Bible course and asked what I thought was a reasonable question, "Elder XXXX, we read the Bible and believe we have the truth. Other denominations read their Bibles and believe they have the truth. How do we know that what we believe is right?" His answer was, "If you don't know the answer to that you don't have any business being here."

I think he was more right than he knew.

I'm glad I've finally found this Forum. I live in a community of 100,000 with two SDA churches--one white and one Regional. I still have my membership in the local church. I have not spoken about any of this to people from the church. My poor elderly parents would be extremely upset if they knew how I'm thinking these days. They wouldn't understand it and they did the best they knew.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just keep going on and on. It's such a relief to be able to say these things.

Thanks everyone
Madelle
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, had another thought. My father, who was a cut above most SDA ministers I've known (of course) has been very patient with some of my questions in the last ten years--before he got Alzheimer's. He kept telling me to read the book by Brother Lawrence, "The Practice of His Presence" (think I've got the title right). I really enjoyed it. That and the book by Richard Lange, "The Gospel of the Kingdom" are what got me started on this road.

After reading The Gospel of the Kingdom I felt like I had a much better handle on salvation, grace, etc. The Book of Romans was not hard to understand like so many SDAs had claimed. But I felt like such a dangerous rebel for reading something religious written by a non-Adventist. And then several years later to read Brother Lawrence--a Catholic monk--that was really getting close to the edge.

One of the sadder things about all this is that I used to preach at smaller SDA churches in the area. I just can't, in good conscience, do that anymore. I miss it.
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dale Ratzlaff's website is www.ratzlaf.com. You can order Sabbath in Crisis and The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists there.

Trippllb, I just have to comment on the jot and tittle text. That one was my nemesis, too. I struggled with it for several months. I'll try to explain how I've come to see it.

First, the law and the prophets, the old covenant, were in place until Jesus died. When Jesus stated those words, he had not yet died. One powerful insight I got from Sabbath in Crisis was this: at the transfiguration, Peter, James and John saw Moses and Elijah, recognized by all Israel as representing the Law and the Prophets, talking with Jesus. A cloud covered the three, and the disciples fell with their faces to the ground. A voice from heaven said, "This is my son, listen to him." When the disciples arose, Jesus alone was before them.

The law and the prophets were gone! And, as if to clinch the meaning of this powerful event, in all three of the gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) where the story is told Jesus follows this pronouncement by telling Peter, James, and John not to tell anyone what they had seen and heard until AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.

Only after his death and resurrection--only after the curtain in the temple was torn--would the new covenant be in place. When Jesus died he said, "It is finished!" Everything necessary for the forgiveness of sins was finally accomplished.

The new covenant places the Holy Spirit, the Living Law, in our hearts. It replaces the law of stone which stood outside us.

A recent insight which I got from my husband Richard was this. The law is to a Christian like the laws of Brazil are to a citizen of the USA. The laws of Brazil exist, but they only apply to citizens of Brazil. If a person leaves Brazil and moves to the USA, the laws of Brazil no longer govern them.

Similarly, if a person does not accept Jesus and the rebirth of the Holy Spirit, he is still under the curse of the law. He is living outside of grace. The law is still a tutor leading unbelievers to Jesus. Once we accept Him, howver, we enter a new reality. We become literally new creations. We become part of the Body of Christ. We no longer live by the law; it's curse no longer has power over us. We are living in grace, our spirits connected to our Savior eternally. We are answerable to the Holy Spirit now, not a law of stone.

Madelle, I understand your feeling of loss at not preaching anymore. I experienced similar loss in different arenas--mainly music and writing. But I have to tell you that God is faithful beyond imagining. I cannot say how he will fill that void in your life, but I assure you that in his time, he will. Nothing from our past is lost--it is redeemed when we submit to him.

Sometimes I feel absolutely overwhelmed at God's sovereignty and faithfulness. It is wonderful to know we live in Love.

I pray for us all.
Colleen
Sherry2
Posted on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 6:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Madelle and Trippllb! Glad to have some "new" faces on the forum. :) Thanks for sharing your strories and struggles.

The comment about Sabbath before sin therefore not related to salvation....well I've had that thought too. But the realization was that God kept it, and didn't order it on man, and secondly when He did, man was in sinful state. In Jewish tradition I have learned that they see Sabbath as a forshadowing of eternal bliss. And Sabbath points backwards to a time when things were perfect between man and God and towards Jesus who makes things perfect once again between God and man. Hope that is helpful. It was for me. When the Pharisees said Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, he pointed to the symbols of the temple and said One greater then the temple was here, and then stated He was Lord of the Sabbath. In other texts he points to Himself directly as the temple, not the set up sanctuary. The only way I can see now observing Sabbath is observing it in my heart with a resting in Jesus attitude, since we are all priests in this new "Temple" system, and we are all part of the church...then Sabbath is in our person as well through Christ, not just a space in time.

Anyhow, it is a struggle because as you're going through this you have a voice telling you that you may be rebelling against the Holy Spirit in you since He writes the laws on your heart...so keep the day holy. At least I run into this. For a while there I would feel very compelled to do it once in a while....and I'd set the house up for Sabbath...but you know....something seemed so sour in my soul when I did....like I was denying Christ's work in me. It was weird.

In my speaking with different Christian Jewish organizations I haven't met one that felt the Gentiles should observe Sabbath. Now some of these groups do keep it, and others don't and see Jesus as the Sabbath rest....but those that do keep it still see it as specific to the Jews only, and never a Gentile requirement because of the New Testamemnt. It is scary to me how engrained it has been in our heads and used as a hammer of fear to pound us into submission to this "idea" for the sake of end time events and losing our salvation over it. I have no doubt of why for us formers, to flee is so much more important then for a person who was raised with Sabbath-keeping in a very grace-oriented non-judmental way. For me, it is like a curse that enslaves me again to law because of what it meant to me as an SDA. Jesus was not central. The "Sabbath" was.

Trippllb, you are the same age as me. Graduate in 88? I'm in MI. Just wondered if you might be too. Anyhow, nice to meet someone my age. :)

Oh, the rest of you are great too!
Trippllb
Posted on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Coleen, what a great Brazil analogy of the new covenant. I speak daily with my brother in CA using IM and felt compelled to share it with him. It was actually his struggle that started me on my quest for truth and we have since begun growing in Christ together. Funny how the lord works. Anyway, he echos my appreciation for your analogy.

I have been doing a study on the Sabbath and I think that until I can jump the 'heaven and earth pass' part of that text it will continue to be my nemisis. From my studies, I have a strong belief that the Sabbath 'law' was nailed to the cross. I just need to find a way to reconcile that belief with this text since obviously heaven and earth have not yet passed. I'm not letting it get to me though. Right now I am focusing my attention on building a personal relationship with the Lord, getting to know his true nature, learning what his word says, celebrating in his grace, and building a strong prayer life. Just like my other questions, this too will fall into place on his time and not on mine.

Sherry, I'm not in MI, but being a long time SDA, I of course know many people who are in MI. I am actually in VA. It's a small world and an even smaller SDA community, so I'm willing to bet that at some point, we've either crossed paths, or know some of the same people. If you'd like to trade notes, drop me an email. Address is in my profile.

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