| Author | Message | ||
| Allenette |
Hey now you're talking....BAD ACADEMY EXPERIENCES could have its own website!!! I went to academy in North Dakota in the late 60's....us girls (from the 50's on...) called the showers "Auschwitz" since there were only these nozzles coming out of the wall into the cement room. No privacy whatsoever. The lingo we used, included us calling our roomates, "wife"....how sick is that???? And I cant help but think that the Victorianistic attitudes towards "dating" if you can even call it that, did NOTHING towards encouraging a healthy attitude for what lie ahead but a very few years, often a few weeks after graduation!!! The only slack I will give academy authorities, is that it was probably nearly necessary to keep the troops in line, given the faculty vs. student population ratio. That being said, I would NEVER send my child (who just graduated high school a week ago ggg) to a boarding school and could NEVER recommend it. THAT BEING SAID, I still have SDA friends from way back then, whose kids are BEGGING them to go. I guess times have changed. The scars remain and I still have bad dreams about that school, which was closed 2 decades ago. I had ONE decent, no, OUTSTANDING dean, Mrs. Kay Stillwell, who has passed on. THe rest were less than useless. Madelle, give me a few days and I'll catch up with you in email. Us PK's gotta stick together...no offense to the other WK's, LEK's, etc. I'm finding out about other walking woundeds here this week....I agree with everyone's assessments...it wasnt much fun most of the time, was it??? boo hoo | ||
| Trippllb |
Therese, I want to put a disclaimer on my comments about SDA schools. My reference (in my experience) was in regard to BOARDING schools only. For 10 of my 12 years, I attended SDA day schools. Some of my best memories and best friends came out of those schools. I think that boarding academy is so different from day schools, because lets face it, if a kid comes up pregnant at a day school, its the parents fault, but if they come up pregnant at a boarding school, the lawsuit hits that the boarding academy. My father still teaches at an SDA day school, and I can say honestly (this is not because he's my father) that he was probably the best teacher I ever had. I think that my 'academic education' is a little bit better than if I attended public schools because of the smaller class sizes and the more stringest academic requirements of the schools. I think that their (day school) academic requirements are excellent. That said, I would not hesitate to school my kid in their DAY schools for a second. But rest assured, on a daily basis, I would be talking theology with my my kid and explaining the difference with what I believe versus what they were being taught. My kids will understand 'grace'. I am a strong proponent of 'private' schools for the difference in the academic requirements and class sizes. Lets face it, I haven't heard a lot of comotion about 'guns' in private schools just yet. That may come, but it seems to be slower in privately funded educational facilities. However, the SDA system is not the only 'private' school system out there. When it comes time for me to make that decision, I will look at all of the opportunities available and go with the best academic school hands down. | ||
| Sammi |
Well, I guess I'm unusual, because my academy experience wasn't nearly the horror story I'm hearing from all of you. The most negative aspect for me was that our dean had us living in constant terror of the "time of trouble." (I guess that in itself is pretty bad.) I can remember staying up late into the night talking about the time of trouble with my friends, working ourselves into a frenzy, knowing we were not "ready." I also remember how every little thing we heard about in the news had us thinking that the end was near. I remember during the energy crisis in the 70s we somehow linked this to the fact that the Sunday Laws were just about to be enacted. Can't remember why we thought that, seems like it was that we figured to save energy they'd force everyone to rest on Sunday or something. I'm getting side-tracked. Basically my memories of the faculty are actually good, we had some teachers that really cared about us, tried to help us through our teen-age years. I can't think of any really off the wall faculty, except maybe that girl's dean. I remember once even being caught behind the cafeteria making out with my boyfriend, and the teacher that caught us told us we better get to where we were supposed to be with a little bit of a smile in his eyes, never reported us or anything. However, my experience with SDA schools now is different. I find, at least in my area, that the SDA schools are extremely poor academically. I'm speaking from experience, my child was in one for a few years. Now I have chosen a private, non-SDA school, and boy do I hear about it from SDAs. It's amazing how they react if you don't have your kids in their schools. Since making that decision I have noticed a totally different attitude and "air" towards me from the SDAs. | ||
| Doug222 |
Sammi, I agree with your assessment of SDA day schools. It seems as though SDA's view their schools in the same way that they do their churches. They've adopted the Hertz motto, "We're number one, why try harder?" The question I have is, "who told you that you were number one in the first place?" With that mentality, rarely do churches or schools look for opportuities for improvement. They are comfortable with the "tried and true," even if it clearly doesn't work anymore. I guess that is what happens when you place all your stock in a little old lady who died nearly a century ago. Maybe at one time we had a great education system, but I question that now (at the secondary level anyway). This is just my humble opinion. Doug | ||
| Therese |
Hi Tripllb, My son had a good experience, too, in the SDA church school. He had a very good teacher and principal up through 5th grade. My husband was the school board chairman and head elder. I was the pathfinder leader and volunteered many hours a week at the school. We had the inside scoop. When the principal changed things began to deteriorate. The new principal was also the upper grade teacher. Kids were not learning and he had some kind of a mental problem. We decided to take our son out rather than put him in the principal's room. It was the right decision. The situation continued to deteriorate. The Conference Education Superintendent would not do anything about it. Kids came out of that school for years not prepared for high school, especially in math and science. A friend put their child into the church school and found the same problems. They then put the child into a non-denominational christian school and also found problems there. On the third try, another christian school, they had success. We researched several SDA academies, both day and boarding. Some were better than others. Overall, we found that our local public high school was better academically than all the SDA academies we looked at. For example, the average state ACT score for all schools was 21. The academies we visited ranged from 18 to 21. The local public high school was 23. The academies seemed deficient in math and science. We are very fortunate to live in what is considered a very good school district. A lot of public schools are very poor academically. I think what makes the difference, whether public or private, is the caliber of the teaching staff and the clientele that attend. Also, the standards and accountability the school is held to can make or break it. That area was deficient in the SDA education system in our state. Good luck as you reseach schools for your children. Therese | ||
| Therese |
Tripllb, Also, we observed better behavior of the kids seemed to go hand-in-hand with the higher academic performance, whether it was public or private schools. Therese | ||
| Trippllb |
Therese, Good point. I believe that the teachers make all the difference in both public and private schools. Ultimately finding a good school depends largely upon the effort the parents put into researching the various options available. I can't speak to 'public' schools, my only point was that in my experience, day schools were a MUCH better experience for me growing up. I did not thrive in the SDA boarding school system, that's for sure! | ||
| Lydell |
What I could never understand about the whole idea of sending your kid away to a boarding school was why anyone would do it to start with. Here's a kid just at the point in life where they need to learn about male/female roles in the home, home life, family responsibilities, and people send them away to live with their peers. And then expect them to know how to build a solid home. AND, the kid is going thru the worst time in their life for feeling rejection and being adversely affected by peer pressure, so you throw them into a living situation almost exclusively with the very people inclined to have the most negative influence on them. It's so goofy! | ||
| Colleentinker |
I went to an SDA day academy. I taught at an SDA boarding academy. We sent our boys to SDA elementary schools and our eldest to SDA jr. high and academy for the first year. I now teach at an inter-denominational Christian jr. high/high school. Here's my assessment: SDA schools are erratic academically. Some are demanding, some are not. Some have faculty members that do care about the kids. But the bottom line is this: anything Adventist bears the Adventist "spirit". As a general rule, Adventits do not have the Holy Spirit. Their institutions bear the result of that lack. At a public school, you don't expect to have the kids go there and be immersed in a spiritual atmosphere. At an Adventist school, people do expect to have their kids in a more concerned, caring, conservative, Bible-oriented environment. The problem is that while SDA schools do attempt to be Christian schools, people who teach Bible and discipline kids without actually being born again Christians while trying to mouth the words and enforce the principles end up perpetrating a really sad deception. We had company recently from a conservative Adventist boarding academy. They were puzzled and impressed by the activities they attended at "our" school and asked how they could "get their kids (students and children) to be spiritual like that and to like their school". They couldn't actually define ways in which the actual activities were different, but I know the difference: the presence of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, the religious activities are empty forms and false piety. The experiences Richard and I had in academy (he went to boarding academy) and the boys had were similar; if your parents are not in an upper financial bracket--preferably physicians but dentists will do and lawyers can be admmired--you have a very difficult time being fully accepted and "on the inside" even if you distinguish yourself in other ways, i.e. academically, musically, sports, etc. There is a distinct but subtle social heirarchy, and it is powerful, even at the elementary level. Also, it's not generally "cool" to be openly Christian in an Adventist school. It's one thing to be Adventist and to adhere to dietary codes and dress standards (maybe); it's quite another to actually want to have a relationship with Jesus. That makes people uncomfortable. It's OK to talk about Jesus in Bible class; generally, however, spiritual things are most comfortably discussed as intellectual principles, not as spiritual realities. I would absolutely never recommend sending a kid to an Adventist school of one is truly a Christian. I would rather send them to public school (if the district is OK) or to a private or Christian school. Any way you look at it, the Bible is not taught biblically in an Adventist school, and the spiritual atmosphere is generated by determination and "good works", not by the love and nurture of the Holy Spirit. Many people (including us) are shocked when they first walk into the school where I teach; the atmosphere is warm and light, and it cannot be accounted for by the architecture. The school is an old, retro-fitted warehouse. The students are happy compared to students at Adventist schools, and there is not an undertone of dissatisfaction and rebellion. Of course, there are kids who get in trouble and rebel. But the administration is committed to Jesus, and they administer swift and sure discipline with love and restoration. In short, Adventist schools are intrinsically problematic because they are--Adventist. That does not negate certain wonderful faculty and committed students. It's just that Jesus cannot be dominant in a place that has grown from an institution founded on a lie. I praise God for his goodness--even to redeeming all those years I spent in Adventist education! I praise God for my past and for redeeming it. Colleen | ||
| Nate |
I agree with Colleen when it comes to the atmosphere that Adventism produces. Even in places where there is a real effort to be grace oriented, there just seems to be an under-the -surface hardness that the Spirit cannot penetrate. Both My wife and myself were talking about this the other day. There is just something blocking the Fruit of the Spirit in Adventist churches and schools. The question that remains is, would you purposely continue to plant seed in rocky soil if you knew it was rocky and would produce only superficial plants that in time will wither and die because of the lack of depth? I was studying the subject of the soils some time back and found that in palestine there was a lot of limestone just under the surface of the ground. The sower would not know till late spring where the limestone was. Once the warm days came, the sun would scorch the plants. In our situation, we know that the soil is rocky. We have seen evidence that God cannot bless the system that is based on legalism. So we must make a decision as to whether or not to keep planting there (ie sending our kids, to SDA schools/trying to change the church) or move to better soil. God Bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Darrell |
Nate, in the parable of the sower, Jesus applied the different soils to different hearers of the word, not to different atmospheres or environments. We cannot judge whether any specific hearer is rocky or good soil, no matter where the person is found. I believe Jesus meant that we should sow seed everywhere, and let the response of the hearers determine what kind of soil it is. Of course, chosing an environment for our children is a different matter, and I would agree that many Adventist schools are not spiritual environments. | ||
| Loneviking |
Interesting discussion, and I have to put my two cents in. I worked at a boarding academy one summer with my parents having the idea that I would get used to it and be ready to attend that fall. I had gone up to the tenth grade in a local, junior academy. That boarding school was about the worst experience I ever had!! All kinds of delinquincy was going on, including experimenting with dope and Ouija boards. When my mom confronted the principle with this his respons was "well, if you don't like the school, go somewhere else!". That summer was like being stuck in a prison camp and I couldn't wait to get away from there. My last two years were spent going to a day academy and living during the week with a local family that would take in students for a small fee. Those two years were the best years of my life with so many memories I cherish, both of the school and that family. And you know what's strange? This academy was very much on the outs with conference administration--they didn't want the school to exist! In spite of that the school turned out (and continues to) students who are very well schooled in the basics and who are very much supporters of that tiny academy. Anyway, I now have one daughter in a day academy and believe me we do have some interesting discussion about what she is taught in Bible class. She comes home and asks me about something---I give her answer backed up by scripture and she goes back and tells her teacher 'what about this'? She has really been giving her Bible teacher all kinds of answers that he just can't handle! :) As far as academics, the academies vary greatly. The aforementioned day academy uses the same text as the public schools and I can't see that the quality of teaching is so much greater than public school. That's why my second daughter is in public school where she's very happy and has two Christian teachers for her homeroom!. Bill (L.V.) | ||
| Lydell |
Nate, shortly before we left the church the Lord gave my husband a dream. We were dressed in old fashioned clothes. I was pulling an old time plow, and he was coming behind doing his best to push that sucker into the ground. But no matter how hard we tried, the plow would just skip along the top of the ground not making an indention at all. The meaning was pretty obvious. Before we left the church we had to ask ourselves a question, "is this a place where I can bring a new believer and tell them honestly that it is a safe place and a place where they will be taught the word?" The answer of course was no. So, we realized we couldn't even take our own kids there. I know you are in a tremendously tough place right now! But what did God call you to do when He called you to be pastor? If He called you, then you really have no choice but to preach truth....and obviously yes yes using His words and direction for timing! You already know in your heart what the end results are going to be as far as the denominational employment is concerned. That's pretty much a given. Acknowledging it won't mean it will be easier to go thru, but it should let you see that that part of the whole issue likely shouldn't even enter into your thinking. Those results aren't your responsibility, they belong to the Holy Spirit. Is there a nondenominational grouping of pastors that meets for prayer in your town? I'm betting they would be only too happy to surround you with prayer. You wouldn't have to share the whole thing with them until you feel safe. But they just may have something to speak into your life right now. That means that your immediate problem with preaching does become one of how to present what when. Do you hold back and run the risk that perhaps some will move away, quit coming to church, or die never having heard the good news of the freedom of the gospel? Do you plunge ahead and present it all immediately knowing some will be turned off? Do you hold back and drag your heels and give time for perhaps sentimit in the church to be stirred and those same folks turned off before you ever get a chance to speak? Do you pick a point in time and gather those who you sense are open and present truth to them as a group and pray for the best? How about offering a more intensive Bible study time and see who shows up and sticks with it? You wouldn't have to just address the topic of "salvation", but could go thru, say the book of John or, look out, Hebrews or Galatians chapter by chapter and let it unfold naturally. You are in a spot. But you know? It really isn't a spot all that unique to Adventism. I'm sure there have been pastors of other faiths who have studied themselves out of a job with their own denominations. I know misery doesn't love company. It's just a reminder that the Lord already knows how to handle it and isn't going to let you down. Guess I'm saying here that along with the "problem" you actually have an awesome opportunity. Perhaps praying from the mindset of "opportunity" as opposed to "problem" just may open your thinking to receive some ideas from Him you haven't considered up to now. Nate, I'm sure you KNOW in the spirit that the Holy Spirit HAS prepared someone else in your congregation or family to move in the same direction you have. It may still take them awhile after they hear to act, but they are prepared. The job given pastor is to speak words that will not return void. Praying and praying for you. And Nate, in your praying never EVER forget to take the time to shut up and listen afterwards! I know you already know all of this. But sometimes it helps to hear others say it somehow. Keep us posted. We are all interested. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Amen to all of the above, Lydell! I have remembered on many occasions in the past couple of years the text in Jer. 29:11 that God knows the plans he has for us (me), plans to propser and not to harm us, plans to give us hope and a future. I never would have imagined my life going where it has gone, but I praise God! I've also thought many time of the text (reference?) that says God will restore the years the locusts ate. He does--in ways more secure and satisfying than we could imagine! Again, we are praying for you, Nate. Colleen | ||
| Nate |
Lydell and Colleen, I appreciate so much your words of wisdom and assurance. My wife and I are more and more confident everyday that the Lord is leading us. When my elders essentially shut me down, giving me room to study on my own, but asking me to move on if I came to the point that I could not support the system, It put me in a tough spot. My comitment to this point has been to share when I had opportunity in private settings. The problem is that this is burning in me. I have been praying for opportunities to share, but this Wednesday morning, I was praying and listening, and I still sensed that the church is not ready to accept this yet. I again sensed the we are going to end up leaving this place and probably this area. In fact I have felt an urgency to write out our journey with scriptural support for our understanding of the Sabbath being fulfilled in Christ. I am working on that right now. But back to the story. I was praying and agonizing with the Lord. "I just feel like I am about to burst if I have no opportunity to share this truth" I told the Lord. As usual after my prayer time and study timne I felt relieved and went on about my day. At almost noon one of my members dropped by my office. She is a deeply spiritual person and the leader of our prayer ministry. She said she was really burdened as of late and felt that she must talk to me about the Sabbath. Come to find out she had been praying about some concerns in her own heart. She had been pleading with God for some answers. To make a long story short, I led her on a study of the covenants and the Sabbath. It was such a God thing. She was truly ready. The blinders fell off her eyes right there in front of me. We ended up studying for 3 hours. She was so over joyed she could hardly contain herself. She has asked us to come and study with her and her husband and older kids. We are going to follow the open door! What a gift from God! As you both have said and many others on the forum, God will make his way plain. He will open and close doors according to His own timing and plan. We just have to be available. I can truly say that He has brought my wife and me to that point as far as we know. He knows our hearts and how we can trick ourselves. But as long as we are praying for willingness, He will do it. At this point, if we get fired, if we have an opportunity to serve outside Adventism elsewhere, or if He opens a door in this place. It makes no difference. He will not abandon us. Our food and shelter are in His hands. Thanks for the marvelous gift of your prayers. God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Lydell |
Nate, what beautiful news! I'm so thankful the Lord opened up that door for you. I had our prayer group pray for you and your wife this morning. A thought occurred to me as I was reading your post just now. Have you considered laying out what you have discovered as clearly as possible in a letter to be sent to the members of your congregation (obviously the leaderships minds are closed). Obviously God's timing needs to be in charge. But, my thought would be when the time arrives, to plan to send letters out to those who the Lord prompts you just may be open to some one thing you have to say. Send the rest of the letters a day or so later so that those who MAY be open will have a day or two to digest what you have to say before the storm hits. My husband was a preaching elder at the time we left. In his last sermon he laid out very well our reasons for leaving. (And half the congregation as they walked out asked me, "huh, what did he say? Did he say you were moving?" sheesh!) Looking back, we wish we had sent a letter to at least a handful. Or been even more bold with David's final comments. Even if they get annoyed by what you say, it is still planting niggling thoughts that aren't going to go away and could bare fruit later on. Just a thought. I just encourage you to grab whatever opporunity He opens for you to state clearly and Biblically what you now believe. You know the stuff that is going to be said, so you need to take a shot at getting the word in somehow. Likely you have already addressed all this in a previous post. I'm still playing catch-up from vacation time and have missed much of the conversation. That is just SO exciting to hear about the lady. God is so precious! And Nate, we can all make a promise to you that even tho what is immediately ahead is going to be rough (you already know that!), what the Lord has on the other side is SO WORTH IT! There is such sweetness in the freedom. And the Lord just has a ton of spiritual blessings in store for you! | ||
| Nate |
Lydell, It is interesting and amazing how God works. A couple of weeks ago I sensed a clear leading from the Lord that I needed to write a "manifesto" in which I lay out the journey that my wife and myself have been on. This letter would be addressed to members of our congregation and friends who have a right and need to know why we believe God is leading us out of Adventism. I thought about it and began to pray and formulate some ideas of how to present all of this. This past week I started writing. I went through a brief history of God's leadership in my life from pre-conversion on, and then included my wife's jouney as we joined in ministry together. I included all of the major directional changes the Lord has led us on. Finally I got into the Sabbath issues and how we came to study them. I am currently in the scriptural section and will be working on the conclusion by the end of this week hopefully and God willing. Then, of course, there will need to be some major editing to make sure it flows. But God is in this and He has caused my thoughts to organize and have logical sequence. The woman I shared with the other day asked me if I had any material to share with her that puts the scriptures together as I had discussed with her. She said that to have it in print would be so helpful in sharing with others and for her personal study. That was another confirmation that this was from the Lord. Your suggestion in still another. Thanks for your thoughts. It makes it even more clear to me that this is going to be a significant part of the process for us but even more for others who have questions. Even if they just throw it in a stack with other papers and forget it. At some point the Lord can lead them back to it when the time is right. Gods blessings to all of you. Please thank your prayer group for me. In Christ, Nate | ||
| Sammi |
Nate - I'm sure many of us are interested in your sharing this with us when it's complete. I am in a journey right now too, confused, and don't have any clear indication from God where He wants me. Perhaps when your writings are complete you could share them on this forum? | ||
| Maryann |
I want to add a welcome to Madelle, Sammi, Hannah and Trippllb;-)) Nate, I think this is a re-welcome;-)) Nate, watching your story unfold has been very interesting and you can't imagine what a blessing it has been to un-told hundreds of people that have come here and read your post's. Madelle, you are special to God. You are special, NOT because you are a member of a "denomination" but BECAUSE you are member of Christ;-))))))))) Hannah and Sammi, living with mates that believe in a "differen" gosple is very difficult. People that are sincere in or afraid to give up their un-biblical view of the Bible are really difficult at times. (Of course, they think that their mates are difficult too!;-)) Lori, as an SDA, had this wonderful Babylonion husband that witnessed to her with love and understanding for many years before Lori came around. I may be able to find her testimony and post it. Trippllb, I have a post that I will post in a bit about the "jot and tittle" verse. Let me locate it. Maryann...IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Trippllb, I found an old "jot and tittle" post that was written to our SDA friend, Ken many moons ago. Please understand that Ken is a die hard SDA that came on this forum for the primary purpose of arguing. Ken was using the Matt. 5:18 verse without checking it's surrounding neighbors. He also had a habit of not addressing post's to him and just going on about things. I really did enjoy him. So, the frustration you may see in the imported post below is aimed at him and NOT you;-))))) ****************************** By Maryann on Friday, May 5, 2000 - 07:01 pm: Hi Ken, Don't forget to use Mt. 17 with verse 18: 17-"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all is fulfilled." The point of verse 17 seems to me to be saying that Jesus came to the earth for a reason, and that reason was not to destroy anything, not even a jot or tittle. Till when? "Till all is fullfilled." What do you think? What is your explanation? Now lets take a look at John 19: 28-30: 28- "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29- Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put (it) upon hyssop, and put (it) to his mouth. 30- When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Verse 28 seems to tell me that Jesus acknowledged(on the cross) that all things WERE accomplished, so that scriptures might be fulfilled. Verse 30- Seems to very srongely indicate to me that since He, (Jesus), came to this earth to fulfil the law and the prophets, and Jesus, on the cross, acknowledged that all things were NOW accomplished, so that the scriptures might be fulfilled, He very simply sealed the price of our redemption with, "IT IS FINISHED." What does the entire Old Testament point forward to? The cross! Redemption! Our Redemption!! Your Redemption!! What does the New Testament Point backwards to? The FINISHED/FULFILLED work on the cross! FINISHED/FULFILLED Redemption!! Your FINISHED/FULFILLED Redemption!! Now when you read Mt. 5:18, PLEASE read Mt. 5:17 and John 19: 28, 29, 30 too. The not one jot or tittle passing (I don't think) applies after "all is FULFILLED/FINISHED! Why? Because it is FINISHED and Jesus said so and that is all the authority I need to believe it!!!!! What do you think? What is you explanation? Now, how about reading this to understand it and SIMPLY believe. Jesus 3 words, "It is FINISHED," sealed your REDEMPTION. Let your 3 words be, "YES, I BELIEVE," to seal your SALVATION? Would you please answer the above questions. If I don't understand, or my understanding is messed up, show me when I missed it. Your friend, Maryann |
