| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 |
Have you ever wondered why in the Old Testament God often effected immediate consequences for sin, whereas now he "appears" to be more merciful. For example, look at the stories of Lot's wife, Nadab & Abihu (Aaron's sons), Samson, Gehazi (Naaman's servant), and Uzzah. God pronounced immediate judgement on them for sins that people commonly commit today, yet we do not suffer the same imediate consequences. I could be wrong but in the new Testament, I only see one situation where God responded in a similar manner. That was in the situation with Annanias and Sapphira. One must ask the question, is God more merciful to us than to them? I've often asked myself this question. This morning a thought came to me that I wanted to bounce off others in the forum. Does this have anything to do with the Ministry of Death (Old Covenant) and the Ministry of the Spirit (New Covenant)? Under the Old Covenant, God was teaching the Children of Israel of His strict requirements of righteousness. He extended them grace through the sacrificial system, however it was important for them to understand that if they rejected that grace, the consequences would be severe. However, under the New Covenant, Jesus has already paid the price for those sins, and therefore God reserves pronuncement of judgement until the end of time when he executes judgement on those of who have rejected His Grace. The consequences at that time will be just as severe as they were in the Old Tstament. As it says in 1 Corinthians (I believe), the things that occurred to the Children of Israel were given to us as examples. My analysis may be somewhat simplistic, and I am somewhat rushed so I don't have time to be more specific, but I'm curious as to how others may feel about this. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Windmotion |
In Galatians 4:1-8 Paul compares the Jews under the Old Testament regulations as children of the owner of a large estate. As children, they were under the control of the guardians and trustees of the estate just as if they were slaves. Their relationship with God was as little children with a father. When a parent disciplines a small child, it must be done immediately to show the direct consequence. Older children may receive delayed punishment. Being grounded doesnt affect a child right away, only when he wants to leave the house. Many different aspects of society have matured over the past 5,000 years. Look at art back then versus art now. It's not that artists were all deficient 1,000 or 3,000 years ago. What artists and scientists know today is because they stand on the shoulders of giants. Why cant Christianity be the same way? Art had its flashpoints, notably the renaissance and the impressionst era. Humanity's understanding of God took a big leap forward when God came to us in the flesh. The small child/grownup child analogy also relates to the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant when you think how many more rules a small child has to follow compared to an older child. You will go to this school today, you will eat this now, you will go to the grocery store etc. This is my view anyways Hannah | ||
| Chuckiej |
Ananais and Saphira certainly would disagree! ;-) And on the other hand, God put up with a lot from Eli's sons before letting them go down in battle. Seriously, they were definitely the exception, not the rule. After thinking about it, God was usually more immediate with Israelites than with non-Israelites. I guess that lines up with what Jesus says in Luke 12:47-48 about those who don't know versus those who don't. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Doug222 You raise (above) a key question in understanding Grace. Let me attempt to answer your quest by first saying that you were NOT SIMPLISTIC. You were to the point and the answer to your question is as important as understanding God's eternal plan itself. Here is how I read the Bible, and please, no labels of "over-dispensasionalism" since those of the dispensasion movement despise me for reading the Bible in the way I describe below: Paul tells us that we should "rightly divide the word of truth", from the Greek "to cut asunder". My division is the same dividing unit of measure as Paul uses, to wit, TIME. In Ephesians 2 Paul uses expressions such as: TIMES PAST... (law and prophets and the "vain" manner that the Jews trusted in the Law, which actually led to lawlessness and perversion) AGES TO COME... (The fulfillment of all things, prophecy fulfilled) BUT NOW... (that which we have now through the blood of Jesus) Have you ever wondered why Jesus in Luke 4:18 APPARENTLY misquoted Isaiah 61 by leaving out the portion that speaks of the "vengeance of the Lord"? Jesus was not misquoting the O.T. but was OBVIOUSLY proclaiming the arrival of the time where God would open a "hiatus" or a "Grace Period" in His plan whereupon he would allow EVEN THE WICKED TO PROSPER (read the Book of Psalms). In this period we have evidenced in the Bible two types of Grace: 1 - Common grace (small "G"), in which God apparently overlooks the perversion of mankind. Read your local paper and you will see that in there everyday. He also allows the wicked to prosper. Watch your favorite talk show on TV and you will see Geraldo, Oprah, Sally, and others making a mockery out of Christianity and getting rich out of it, and ENJOYING GOING TO HELL. 2 - Specific GRACE (capital letters intended). This is the Grace that is applied only to His "elect" if you allow me to use such a "forbidden" word in this forum. This is the ETERNALLY SAVING GRACE that is applied to those whom God gave to Jesus. We can exemplify the two above by the scripture of Mark 4: 34-39 where Jesus calmed the storm. In this passage, we assume that Jesus' boat was not the only boat in the sea at that moment. So, when Jesus calmed the storm, NOT ONLY the boat carrying Jesus benefitted from the sudden calm but also every other boat in the ocean. BUT ONLY THOSE IN THE BOAT WITH JESUS GOT TO THE OTHER SIDE IN THE COMPANY OF JESUS! PRAISE HIS NAME. The people such as I mentioned above, will "get to the other side" because God will allow them to go without IMMEDIATELY PUNISHING THEM, as you point out in your original question. BUT ONLY YOU AND I, US, THE SAVED ONES, WILL GET TO THE OTHER SIDE IN THE COMPANY OF JESUS IN OUR LAST DAY. PRAISE HIS NAME! I hope this helps and does not incite controversy or provoke people to lose their peace since it is just my humble opinion based upon years of study and not some emotional religiosity... A Fraternal Embrace Grace Ambassador | ||
| Loneviking |
G.A., You have some very good thoughts on God dealing with man differently in different ages. Like you, I'm a bit of a dispensationalist--and yet, I wonder if we aren't seeing something else here. Israel had entered into a covenant relationship with God and had promised to oby and allow God to dwell amongst them. God is, therefore, very close to them both literally and through the mechanism of a covenant promise. Could it be that this is a claim on the Jews lives such that God is able to apply justice as He sees fit and when He sees fit? Wouldn't this also apply to Christians? We too are in a covenant relationship and live close to Him. Doug 222 mentioned Annanias but there is another larger group mentioned by Paul. Here is what 1Cor. 11:27-30 says: "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgement to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. FOR THIS REASON MANY AMONG YOU ARE WEAK AND SICK, AND A NUMBER SLEEP." NASB version. Under the New Covenant, there are only two symbols of that Covenant---Baptism and the wine/bread of the Lords supper. The Jews had hundreds of signs of their covenant, which were the laws under which they lived. Hundreds of chances to breach the covenant relationship and suffer punishment. Today, two ways to abuse the relationship (of which the Lords supper is the easiest to imagine) and here we have an example of punishment being meted out for such a transgression. Could it be that the same thing is happening in the congregations around us and we, like the Corinthians, just aren't recognizing this? A blessed Lords' day to all! Bill | ||
| Graceambassador |
Loneviking: You're right! The PUNISHMENT IS THERE, but is now called DISCIPLINE, or CHASTENING, words used in the New Testament. There are various degrees of such discipline and the N.T. (Paul) uses the words that in Greek progress from "training" as "training up a child_ to SCOURGING. Scourging to some EXPERTS IN CHURCH DISCIPLINE (yes there are those too...) is an untimely death as in the text of the Lord's supper that many were sleeping (dead) because they abused food and did such in the Lord's Supper. You can surmise whether this people died of overeating or GOD USED OVEREATING TO SCOURGE THEM. (NOTE THAT IT NEVER MEANS LOSING ONE'S SALVATION). Looking in Romans we see how GOD DELIVERED SOME TO THEIR OWN PASSION, just to punish them. So the untimely death here could be because of the overeating and the overeating could be because God scourged them with such a habit because of their disrespect for the MEMORIAL of the Lord's Supper. Also, there was a fellow that Paul tells us not to even pray for him because his sin was so shameful to the Body that Paul "delivered his body to Satan so his soul would be saved". This is the HEIGHT of Godly discipline. Again, you are right. Note that my point is that some do the same thing as the people mentioned above and do get away with it. I believe is because of what I called in my post "common grace". ONE LAST IMPORTANT POINT: since we know that God only disciplines and scourges those whom He loves, according to the Bible, PERHAPS NOT TO BE DISCIPLINED, OR CHASTENED BY GOD CAN BE THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT. As J.S. Bach said in his wonderful piece "OH SACRED HEAD NOW WOUNDED", last stanza: LORD LET ME NEVER, NEVER, OUTLIVE MY LOVE FOR THEE! This is my prayer! It is always a pleasure to chat with you Brother Loneviking! A Fraternal Embrace Grace Ambassador | ||
| Kelly |
I agree with the comments about "common grace". All of mankind (believers and unbelievers) receive this common grace in the form of everyday living. God extends to ALL the grace of breathing and eating. It is a miracle in itself that the epiglottis opens and closes allowing us to eat with out aspirating the food into our lungs. This is grace. There are special blessings that are extended to those who chose to believe that I'm going to call efficacious grace--efficacious means having the power to produce an intended effect. The moment that we hear the gospel message we are recipients of this efficacious grace. The Holy Spirit makes the gospel message understandable to us giving us the first opportunity at "the power to produce an intended effect"-salvation! However, as a baby/immature believer we remain under this same efficacious grace as we continue to grow spiritually. The "intended effect" for all believers is that they reach spiritual maturity. At the point of spiritual maturity we receive "Super-grace blessings" in our time on this earth and in eternity!!! All Believers are not equal!!! All Believers in heaven will not be equal!!! Some will have nothing but the minimal amount of "grace blessings" in time and in eternity and others will have "super grace blessings" in time and eternity. Some believers in heaven will be nothing but "a common soldier" and others will be "decorated officers". There are "decorated officers" on this earth that have reach spiritual maturity. They have passed through the different levels of testing by using "God's problem solving devices". They have claimed God's promises and have rested on them. They have relied on virtue love--doing everything based on the fact that they love the Lord. They have reacted toward others based on who and what they are in Christ rather than who and what the other person is. They have daily exposed themselves to Bible doctrine. Eating and metabolized the word of God. These are the decorated officers. On the other hand, you will find those who believe but have never understood God's plan for the Christian way of life. They may be a pastor or and elder; they may be active in every part of the church. They may seem very holy. The problem is they have never seen the importance of daily intake of God's word; they don't distinguish the difference between hearing the word and eating the word. They don't thing that claiming God's promises really works; they feel you have to "work" your way or "give" your way to get something from God. They are emotional Christians always linking the way they feel to their level of spirituality. They are looking for the spectacular--miracles, tongues, prophecy, etc....these were spectacular gifts!! But they never see that these things are not spiritual maturity. They look at the spectacular as the climax of spiritual maturity. They are wrong. These "common soldiers" are completely ineffective to the advancement of God's plan. They have completely lost site of the fact that God calls us to the "routine". The "routine" Christian life of daily eating and metabolizing the word of God is the Highest form of Christian maturity. Most "common soldiers" find this routine boring, uninteresting, a waste of time when they could be involved in the spectacular. This is the same problem the Corinthians had!!! They wanted the spectacular. They wanted the emotional high. Paul told them that all those gifts were going to pass away. Those gifts were on their way out. He told them that when "perfection" came (<teleios> is the Greek word) the imperfect would disappear. <Teleios> is a neuter gender word--it does not refer to a person. <Teleios> refers to the completion of the canon of Scripture. Christian today still want the spectacular. This is why the tonques movement is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. The gift of tongues is a false gift today. It was a legitimate gift. But it is no longer. The gift of tongues was done away with when the canon of Scripture was completed. I write all this to emphasize the point that there are two groups of believers. Both groups believe and both groups are saved. But only one group is fulfilling the plan of God in their lives-this group is receiving the super grace blessings that belong to the spiritually mature. The other group has accepted emotional highs, their feelings or their works as proof of their spiritual advancement. They are saved but they have "quenched" and/or "grieved" the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. They will receive the blessings of Grace that God will grant to all who believe but they will miss out on all of the wonderful Super-Grace blessings in time and in eternity. We have the power of efficacious grace as long as we are alive. God wants each of us to live to reach spiritual maturity. He provides us with ample opportunity. However, if we chose to be negative to these opportunities God will chastize us; he will discipline us. He only disciplines those he calls his own. This is why the wicked seem to prosper. They are not disciplined by God, they are not His children. That is why a believer can do the same wicked act as an unbeliever and the unbeliever seems to go unpunished and the believer suffers the consequences. We can become so ineffective to God that he "takes us out". He delivers our body over to Satan--allows him to kill the body but HE saves our soul because we believed in Christ. Believers can die a horrible death of insecurity and doubt OR they can die be under the "dying grace" of God. Have you ever known a Christian that was dying but they had a certain peace and assurance about them through this experience? This is a super grace blessing!!! **Lori, most of these terms will be so familiar to you. I visited the website of the tape ministry that you mentioned and have been listening to these tapes. This ministers understanding of the Koine Greek is amazing. He understand things that you simply can not find in a Greek lexicon--His ministry has been so central in my new found security in Christ. I just wanted to thank you for sharing that website. Kelly | ||
| Graceambassador |
"TELEIOS" It is a common explanation that the word "perfect", from "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor. 13 means "the cannon of the Bible" as described above. Let me, however, dispute that traditional view of theology. Here it is as follows: 1 - In order to come up to a common and reasonable explanation of a text, theologians use a few different rules of hermeneutics. One is high criticism of a text, which proposes to check the wording of the author of the text and verify his trend as he was illuminated and inspired of the Spirit to write. When it comes to the word "teleios" in 1 Cor 13:10 THESE THEOLOGIANS TOTALLY DISREGARD PAUL'S LANGUAGE SINCE PAUL USES THE WORD "TELEIOS" MEANING SPIRITUAL MATURITY AND ALSO REFERRING TO THE RESSURRECTION OF THE DEAD. We find the above IN CONTEXT in Philippians 3: 10-15 where Paul: a) tells that "he may attain the ressurection of the dead and the fellowship of His sufferings" b) THEN PAUL STATES, "NOT THAT I ALREADY ATTAINED THAT WHICH IS PERFECT, OR IN SOME TRANSLATIONS, HAVE ALREADY BECOME PERFECT. The word is the same here as it is in 1 Cor 13:9-10 "TELEIOS". SO IN THE LANGUAGE OF PAUL, ANY FUTURE PERFECTION REFERS TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, OUR FINAL REWARD. PAUL COULD NOT BE POSSIBLY SAYING, "NOT THAT I ALREADY HAVE ATTAINED THE "CANNON OF THE BIBLE" when he is dealing with the issue of the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. Theologians ignore that even knowing that this is the case. 2 - As per the above, THEOLOGIANS, biased, not to say outright deshonest and with an understandable aversion for the Pentecostal movement, because of its fleshly exageration, INFERRED that TELEIOS in 1 Cor 13 vs. 9 and 10 MEANS THE CANNON OF THE BIBLE. But NO! The gifts will end only when we are made perfect BY THE RESSURRECTION OF THE DEAD. I debated all kinds of theologians and none of them could show me one iota of evidence that the early fathers believed this text to be interpreted any other way than the RESSURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The exagerations and the mockery made by the Pentecostal movement of the gifts of the Spirit cannot be a reason for us to remove it out of the Bible and its CORRECT practice in the Body today. Modern theologians, and a few others, have attempted to remove a big chunk of the Bible by explaining away predestination and the Gifts of the Spirit. The funny thing is that some take one and leave the other. The Pentecostal take the Gifts and leave off predestination. The Reformed take predestination and leave off the gifts of the Spirit. As a NON COMFORMIST I believe that both are in the Bible, are for today, and to be understood within the framework of Gods Revelation through the ages and practiced and taught in reverence and respect for God in the Body of Christ. On this frame of mind THE CALVINIST CALL ME CHARISMATIC AND THE CHARISMATIC CALL ME CALVINIST. I take this to be a testimony of Biblical balance. The other assertions on the post above are right to the point. Please, I have to say this again: NO ONE, PLEASE, SHOULD LOSE THEIR JOY OVER WHAT I WRITE AND LABEL ME ANYTHING THAT MAY DISPLEASE GOD. Just ignore me or go back to your study desk... By the way, I AM DOING THIS MYSELF RIGHT NOW... You're all blessed according to Eph 1:3 and you do not need my opinions for such, neither my opinion can remove you from such! Praise God! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Kelly |
"TELEION" This word is a substantive, an adjective used as a noun equivalent, it has several meanings: "perfect, completed, mature". "Perfect" has a qualitative connotation describing something that lacks any flaw, an idyllic or utopian state. "Mature" or "completed" carries a quantitative connotation, describing the conclusion of a process, a whole instead of a part. IF the qualitatvie meaning, "perfect" is assigned to teleion, then it would refer to the ideal condition that will exist following th Secon Advent of Christ. This would mean that partial knowledge communicated by prophecy and Scripture would continue throught the Church AGe and be replaced by "perfect" knowledge when the believer is face-to-face with Christ in the Millennium or in heaven. Though it was common for Greek philosophers to use <teleios> in a qualitative way to refer to a perfect man or ideal state, this meaning is foreign to Scripture. In contrast, the use of <teleion> and it cognates in the New Testament refer to the quantitative meaning, completed or mature (I Cor. 2:6; 14:20; Eph. 4:13; Heb. 5:14; James 1:5). Since the immediate context of 1 Cor. 13:9 focuses on the partial or incomplete nature of revelation through prophecy and knowledge, <teleion> in verse 10 must also be understood in the quantitative sense of God's "completed" revelation of doctrine. Since it is in the neuter gender, it cannot refer to the coming of the person of Christ, a masculine noun. Therfore, both context and grammar eliminate the qualitative meaning of "perfect"-the return of Christ, the Millenium or heaven-as a possible interpretation. This word refers to the completet revelation of the the Canon of Scripture. One the WHOLE Canon was in writing, the gifts of prophecy and knowledge that had gradually revealed PORTIONS of the mystery doctrine would be terminated. 1 Cor. 13:11,12 are illustration of the partial and complete related to "when the perfect comes" in verse 10. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child (the partial) when I became a man (the complete), I did away with childish things. verse 12 "For NOW <arti> (adverb of time that refers to the immediate present) we see in a mirror dimly (partial) but then face to face (the complete); now <arti> I know in part (partial) but then I shall know fully <epignosis>(the complete) justas I also have been fully known. When Paul wrote the Christians were totally dependent on the apostles' and prophets' revelatory gifts for learning doctrine to live the unique spiritual life of the Church Age. But he saw a time in the future when believers would have the entire realm of mystery doctrine to objectively know themselves as never before and become spiritually self-sustaining. Paul uses a mirror analogy to illustrate this principle. In a mirror a person looks at the reflection of himself. The believer who looks into a "mirror dimly" (the incomplete Canon, cannot see himself clearly. But the believer who gazes "face to face" into a unclouded mirror (the complete revelation of Church Age codtrine, is able to see and evaluate himself "fully" in relation to the absolute standard of God's Word. The unclouded mirror is refected in the believer's soul when doctrine is metabolized into <epignosis>. From the Word of God in his soul he has a clear image of himself as he truly is in the light of the truth. With this objectivity, he establshes new priorities, revamps his scale of values, and gives top priortiy to the daily intake of Bible doctrin. He reaches spiritual maturity. Therefore, when Paul says. "Now I knoe in part, but then I shall know fully he is referring to partial revelation, imcomplete doctrin, in contrast to complete revelation, the entire Canon. Just as God has known us perfectly from the eternity past, now we can know Him fully as He has revealed Himself through His complete Word. Chapter 13 is concluded with Paul reinterating the permanence of virtue-love. "But now <nuni> (this is a different adverb than the "now" of verse 12. <Nuni> weakens the idea of time, indicating not the specific time of Paul but the broader scope of the Church age in general. The central focus of the dispensation would be virtue-love defined by the unabridged mystery doctrine revealed in the completed Canon. "Now" faith, hope, and virtue-love, not temporary spiritual giftw, continue for the entire span of the postcanon Church Age. As for the reference to Phil. 3; I will have to study that under the context of "why" Paul was writing to them. Thank you for your comments on the subject and as you stated we must all "study them for ourselves and not allow others to distract us". Kelly | ||
| Loneviking |
Kelly, Amen! Kelly, I couldn't have said it better myself. The interpretation that you have laid out (and that I believe as well) is the only interpretation that is both safe and sustainable. If Scripture were not closed and the gifts still active with more revelations being disclosed---how would we distinguish between where Gods' wisdom ends and mans' begins? This is exactly the problem with EG White and her 'revelations', as well as the prophet of the Mormon church and others. The revelation of the scriptures was completed by the time the last of the apostles died. Only because the Scriptures are complete can Christians be both secure that the Word is the complete truth (as we have the testimony of the apostles to that), and that we have a guide which we can trust as the basis by which to compare any teaching against (because those who knew or were taught by Jesus wrote all of the books of the New Testament). The reason for the miraculous gifts has ceased to exist.......... And even though I disagree with you G.A., you're still my brother in Christ and still get a long distance hug! :)) Bill | ||
| Graceambassador |
Loneviking and all: To say that I believe that the Gifts of the Spirit did not end IS DIFFERENT THAN SAYING THAT THE SCRIPTURES IS NOT CLOSED, FINISHED AND PERFECT. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING! This is a cheap shop of denominational churches and theologians. Specially those who for 10 bucks a month have web sites for unadvised believers who seek agreement to their own biases. These theologians say of believers like me, seeking to intimidate them into submissive belief: "If you do not believe that I Cor 13:9-12 is referring to the Cannon of the Bible then you must not believe that the Cannon of the Bible is perfect and it is finished". When one means the other? Where is the logic in it? This after I wrote a long piece saying that the "revelations were closed with the Revelation of Grace..." Also, to play with the noun form of a Greek verb and its adverbial form in some instances and not in ALL instances is another trick of self proclaimed theologians. But I accecpt Kelly's explanation, because it is technically correct although I still do not see how it proves "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor 13 means the Cannon of the Bible. Why God would inspire Paul to "prophesy" (with "s", the verb to prophesy) what theologians would do years later with the Cannon of the Bible. So, after the death of the last Apostle and till the putting together and officiating of the Cannon of the Bible one can say that the Gifts of the Spirit were in force? What an illogical thing! What a disorganized God! Can we say that in obscure corners of the world, where the Bible is forbidden, and people have only little pieces of it, and have little knowledge of a Perfect Cannon God still allows the Gifts of the Spirit to be in force? See, this is the question we have to ask before we conclude that "becase of the completion of the Cannon then, God removed the gifts". By the way, to the surprise of many, there is such a thing as a place that go beyond one's ZIP CODE!. You might say: "Ah, but I speak about the completion of the Cannon that God will reveal to people by the Spirit even in REMOTE PLACES WHERE THE BIBLE IS NOT AVAILABLE". If this is your answer, then you just confessed that you believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are for today... If you believe that God speaks to a person who is mentally ill, or has Alzheimers and cannot understand revelation, but somehow is saved, then you believe that the Gifts of the Spirit is for today... If you believe that God speaks to a deaf and mute person, like my aunt, and allows her to understand the entire story of Salvation and repeat it in sign language, without ever hearing it (how can this happen if faith comes by hearing...?), then you just believed the Gifts of the Spirit as for today and that hearing is Spiritual hearing and not physical! I could go on and on, but you probably caught it by now. And if you believe any of the above, then you must ASK GOD FORGIVENESS FOR EVER HAVING SAID THAT THE HIS PRECIOUS SPIRITUALS (THAT'S THE GREEK) ARE NOT FOR TODAY... To be objective this is my belief: "I believe that we have a perfect Cannon. An inerrant Bible, an finished Revelation. I believe that nothing must be added to the scriptures and nothing must be taken away from it. I believe the scriptures are authoritative and the supreme authority in matters of faith and that there is no other and there will be no other like it". Having said that, I hold that: to maintain that believing that the Gifts of the Spirit somehow exist to change such a "perfect Cannon" is an old fashion view that the Pentecostal (in general) may hold, but NOT THIS SERVANT OF YOURS AND GOD! I always refer to my own record of writing in this forum since no one knows me personally. The gifts of the Spirit were not then, neither are they now to change or add to Revelation. Prophecy, for example in the NT church is different than Prophecy in the OT and it is to be supported by the Bible, as Paul taught, and NOT TO WRITE THE BIBLE. The Bible is the authority to JUDGE PROPHECY IN THE N.T. Therefore, if it judges prophecy, it is the basis of prophecy and prophecy is then not an "agent of change". I'd suggest the study of the Gifts of the Spirit from an unbiased source! Tongues are mysteries spoken to God as Paul said. I do not see that speaking in mysteries to God can change, add or nullify Scripures. There is nothing that refers to that in the Bible. I'd suggest the study of the Gifts of the Spirit from an unbiased source! The gifts of knowledge and wisdom are a MUST TODAY in the body of Christ, and it is WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON THE FINISHED AND PERFECT CANNON OF THE BIBLE. Not to add, change or nullify. I'd suggest the study of the Gifts of the Spirit from an unbiased source! BIASED TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER IN THE ISSUE! If because of the our perfect Cannon we do not need the fourfold ministry of Ephesians 4, and we can know it all only by reading it, then, why the need for teachers, writers such as Mark Lucado, and others who aid us in undesrtanding better and seeing more clearly what God wants from our lives? And if we do need these ministries, is this the same to say that it is because we do not have a perfect Cannon? NO! The same is applicable to the gifts of the Spirit when properly applied with the "decency and the order" required in its application! Again, to say that I believe the Gifts of the Spirit is the same as to say that I do not believe we have a perfect Cannon is BEARING A FALSE WITNESS! Thankfully, it is not here in this forum that I will demonstrate what I really believe! My ministry is my witness! By the way, I could exegete the word "perfect" using teleios, teleion and telestati, and still would not find that it means in 1 Cor 13 the Cannon of the Bible! Thank you and I hope you at least believe my set of beliefs as written above! A Fraternal Embrace and you can disagree with me that it will not change my admiration for your candor and kindness! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
L.V. and Kelly: I was conceived in a strict Baptist Church (we had confortable pews...). I grew up in it and ultimately "killed" in it. I defended the position you now maintain as a warrior. When I finally changed my views, NOT TO THAT OF PENTECOSTALISM, but to that of Biblical balance, (not saying that yours is not...) I did as Zacheus voluntered to do after his encounter with Jesus: I made restitutions. I went all over the place announcing that I had defrauded people of a blessed part of the Bible by preaching against it. The same with "predestination". I really did! I was not afraid to make restitution. Today, the Pentecostal reject my position and so do the Baptists. But I feel confortable in God's perfect balance and well aware that I am still learning... Just so you know that I am not so off-shot of any denomination, but at the same time there is a background in my beliefs that through much fear and trembling was changed for the better... I hope ALL PREACHERS, would go around making restitutions for the errors they have taught for years unde the guise of "theology". And here is one who is often called a "theologian". Love you in Christ! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Kelly |
Hi, GA, I just read over the passage in Philippians 3 that you referred to. I agree Paul is referring to himself when he uses the word perfection in that passage. And, he clearly states that he has not attained perfection. Whether the word in 1 Cor 13:10 and the word in Phil. 3:12 has the same meaning or not is irrelevant. What is revelant is what that word is connected to in the sentence, in the passage and in the book. In 1 Cor 13 the word perfection is used as a noun. It is not used as a description of status. Since it is used as a noun in a passage that contains nothing but contrasts. Then you must interpret it within that context. In Phil. 3:12 it is used as an adjective. Describing the state of perfection that Paul is striving for. And you are correct it matters not whether we agree with each other, this too is irrelevant. However, it is of greatest importance that we agree with the word of God. I understand your position on the subject you do not need to clarify it. As we have both already stated our views on the matter it is unnecessary for us to further exchange comments. The truth is out there. Whether we choose to be positive to the truth or whether we choose to arrogantly reject the truth is between each individual and the Holy Spirit at work within them. I will prayerfully take your position before the Lord and ask the Holy Spirit to impress upon me the truth. I truly regret that you have taken a defensive stand on this subject. I believe that you sincerely are seeking the truth; and have confidence that God will lead you to all truth as long as you continue to seek it. We must remember that we are all at different places on our individual journeys. Our "suitcases" don't all contain the same amount of truths. Some are just beginning their journey and they only have the basics and others have traveled faithfully without straying from the path for decades and still others have strayed repeated even though they have been traveling for decades. And still others, have packed alot of useless junk in their suitcases and they are having to unpack some of those things in order to make room for the truth. There would have been a time (not so long ago) that I would have arrogantly passed judgement on those who disagreed with me because I thought I knew it all. But I will stand with Paul as he says, "I have not attained perfection" (but, I do have the "Book of Perfection" to guide me). May we all do as Paul suggests "Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead". Kelly | ||
| Graceambassador |
Kelly: Thank you for the words and thank you for your exhortation of what you view as a "defensive" stance. I was (and am) just trying to prevent you or L.V. to think that I am as the Pentecostal that I am sure you have in mind and that I hold a "weird" view that the Cannon is not perfect of complete. I was protecting anyone from bearing false witness against me. In any case, your exhortation is relevant and for me and it is taken as a Spiritual advice. IT is a proof that the Spirituals are in work in you EVEN TODAY! Praise the Spirit Gifts Giver! Again, thank you for your exhortation! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Windmotion |
I myself do not speak in tongues, but I have known many people who do. What's more important, I have never heard anyone confess to "pretending" to speak in tongues or wishing they didn't speak in tongues. In such a wide and varied movement as the charasmatic movement you would think this would be the case if tongues were not genuine. Paul goes into great detail in I Corinthians 12-14 explaining the purpose of tongues in the church, more than any of the other gifts, which would seem odd if it was a gift that was going to be taken away from them shortly. I. Cor. 14:26 says "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." How do we know this is not needed today? Perhaps 1,000 years from now we will look back and see the greatest travesty of 20th century Christianity was taking those who had an essential gift and suppressing it or sequestering them off into their own private churches instead of allowing them to spread it around. I. Cor. 12 talks about the different parts that make up the body of Christ. If the gift of tongues were the legs of the body, charasmatic churches are like centipedes!! Christians to whom Paul was writing to had the opposite problem of today. They set tongues on too high of a pedestal. They enjoyed the gift that could not be easily explained or rationalized. If someone says, speaking in tongues brings me closer to God, how can you judge them for that? If someone says, avoiding meat offered to idols brings me closer to God, you do not judge. Many of you are here in this forum because someone told you that leaving the Sabbath would bring you closer to God, which you did in the face of opposition. My only point is, we cannot judge a person's spirituality or their connection to God. No where in the Bible does it say tongues is right for everyone. But I believe to those whom God gave the gift, it is right for them to use it. --Hannah | ||
| Lori |
Kelly, you have been doing a lot of studying!!!! I am in the midst of a study of virtue love and the passage that I just studied was 1 Cor. 13:8-11. Here are some of my study notes about that passage that will add to what Kelly already posted. Subject: Self-command and Emphasis are critical in order to live inside the plan of God. Those who have the wrong emphasis in life are compared to a child in 1 Cor. 13 Vs. 9 begins with a post positive conjunction particle GAR, an explanatory conjunction to amplify the gift of academic knowledge-the last thing referred to in vs. 8 was knowledge. At the time of Paulís letter to the Corinthians (pre- NT Canon) knowledge was received via the spiritual gift of knowledge. GINOSKO-means the function of the temporary gift of knowledge. MEROS-means in part-in this passage it would refer to ìthe part of church age doctrine pertinent to the Corinthians PROPHEUTEO-means to preach (forthtelling)óthe prophets would tell to the churches what the Canon of Scripture would say before it was written. (This must have been a fabulous faith building experience to have heard some one say the words that would be written in the Bible and then 30-40 years later to read those exact words penned from anothers hand. Vs. These temporary gifts (tongues, prophecy and knowledge) were to supply momentum in the spiritual lives of the believers during that pre-Canon period. The Doctrinal perception and teaching of the post Canon period by way of contrast is give in vs. 10. The temporal particle HOTAN (translated when) introduces or anticipates the completion of the NT Canon of Scripture. With it is the very important post positive conjunction particle DE used as an adversative conjunction to set up a contrast to how the doctrine was communicated before the Canon of Scripture was completed. It was communicated through temporary gifts, the teachers of that time had the gift of knowledge. Knowledge of the Word NOW comes from personal study; the pastor/teachers of our time must STUDY, STUDY, STUDY !!! This was what Paul was telling them!! The subject is TEILEIOS in the nominative neuter singular, which is generally misunderstood. It is in the neuter. ìBut when the completedî (it is referring to the Canon of Scripture) the definite article indicates a specific category (the NT) ìhas comeî the aorist active subjunctive of ERCHOMAI. ìWhen the complete Canon has comeî is a reference to AD 96 when the Canon of Scripture would be completed. The cumulative aorist tense views the completion of the Canon of Scripture in its entirety but regards it from the viewpoint of its existing results which are the expository teaching of the pastor/teacher from AD 96 and forward. The active voice-the NT Canon produces the action-it is the completed. The subjunctive mood is potential. it implies a future reference from the time Paul wrote and is qualified by the element of contingency-the completion of the Canon. In the next phrase we have ìwhat is temporary will be abolishedî. The future passive indicative of KATARGEO means to be abolished, phased out. The passive voice-temporary gifts receive the action of the verb. Only a few people had these gifts even at the time when they were valid spiritual gifts, but every one wanted them!! The subject of 1 Cor. 13 is Virtue Love---Paul used opposites to illustrate the permanency of virtue love. Virtue love is for all believers and is permanent. The spectacular gifts were limited to a few and limited to a specific period of time. The purpose of tongues was prophesied in Isaiah 28:11,12. So how do we know that the prophecy in Isaiah is connected to these passages in Corinthians? Because Isaiah 28:11,12 is quoted in 1 Cor. 14:21. I realize that this discussion is not centered specifically on the gift of tongues however tongues does seem to be what many former Adventist are confronted with upon their rejection of SDA doctrines. I know that it was hurled at me from many different sourcesóall with the same general assertation. ìI didnít believe that tongues were a legitimate gift BUT I have a friend who is very spiritual, very religious and when I found out she spoke in tongues thatís when I began to reconsider that it might be a true giftî. None of those who approached me with tongues found a reason to believe in tongues from the Bible. Their reasons for believing in tongues was because of some wonderful Christian lady or man that they knew. I know some marvelous SDA, Mormons, Jews and Catholics. The fact that they are extremely moral, appear to be very spiritual and extremely persuasive doesnít make what they believe Biblical. The legitimate purpose of tongues was to evangelize the Jewish nationóit was to be a warning to the Jews that they were about to fall under the 5th cycle of divine disciple as described in Lev. 26:29-33. Hope these notes are helpful to someone. Lori | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Hannah, I had transferred my article from microsoft word and didn't read your post until after I had posted. You bring up a very good argument. The Scripture you were referring to "If anone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret; but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God". IF in this sentence is in a third class condition (there are four conditions that the word if can be written in) The 3rd class condition recognizes the possiblity that this COULD happen but also indicates that this is not probable. The Corinthians had already been told that the gift of tongues was on the way out 1 Cor. 13:8. Therefore the commands of Chap. 14 are a warning of the danger in ignoring edification. Another question that one might ask themselves in relation to tongues is this: If tongues, prophecy and knowledge were to continue until the time that we reach our eternal state then why were we told that they would be ending in Scripture? This information has no spiritual value for us. After we reach heaven we will no longer have to be warned against false teachings. The Corinthians (because of their involvement in the phallic cults) were especially draw and excited by this spiritual gift; the gift of tongues held their fascination more than the gifts that were of real value to them spiritually. Tongues was a means of evangelism and really had no viable purpose in a congregation of believers, especially a congregation of believers who all speak the same language! The purpose of tongues has always been to spread the gospel message to someone who did not speak the language--by someone who was ignorant of their language. This purpose does not fit the purpose for which denominations "use" tongues today. In a church that is filled with only people who speak English why do you need someone to speak in a language that is uncomprehensible to anyone? There is no purpose to it. The Corinthians just liked it!!! It made them FEEL good! It made them FEEL spiritual. It made them FEEL like they did in their phallic rituals. And, Satan effectively uses this "gift" as a distraction to believers, today. Just as he keeps Adventist distracted by the gift of the Sabbath and the gift of prophecy he keeps others distracted by the spectacular gift of tongues. Bring everything you believe against the Canon (the Standard) of Scripture. If it can't stand against the standards of Scripture then it must be throw out or it will distract you from the goal(the prize) before you that Paul speaks about in Colossians. Lori | ||
| Graceambassador |
Just food for thought: Lori said (or her source said): PROPHEUTEO-means to preach (forthtelling)óthe prophets would tell to the churches what the Canon of Scripture would say before it was written. (This must have been a fabulous faith building experience to have heard some one say the words that would be written in the Bible and then 30-40 years later to read those exact words penned from anothers hand. But Paul says: 1 Cor 14:3: But he that PROPHEUTEO, prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation (what Kelly did to me) and comfort... (Where it does it say that they were fortelling the future Cannon?) Lori, or her source, teaches: The purpose of tongues has always been to spread the gospel message to someone who did not speak the language--by someone who was ignorant of their language. But Paul teaches: 1 Cor 14:2 But he that speaketh in an unkown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto GOD: FOR NO MEN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries... (Does God need to be evangelized? What language does God NOT SPEAK? Why using a language do evangelize that no one understands?) I will take Paul's teachings in both counts. His teachings are recorded in our Perfect Cannon. I studied the Spiritual Gifts as one who wanted to disprove them. Later, I continued to despise what Pentecostals and Charismatics do to the gifts, but have never written them off the Bible again. So, I suppose I am not biased. Anyone who is taught by me heard me say that: PAUL TAUGHT THAT THE THESSALONIANS CHURCH WERE AN EXAMPLE TO OTHER CHURCHES... HOWEVER HE NEVER MENTIONS ANY OF THE SPETACULAR GIFTS. JESUS SAYS OF JOHN THE BAPTIST THAT NO MAN HAD THE HOLY GHOST AS HE HAD AND THERE WAS NEVER A MENTION OF JOHN THE BAPTIST SPEAKING IN TONGUES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, JOHN RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST EVEN BEFORE HE WAS BORN... THERE IS NO MENTION THAT HE EVER SPOKE IN TONGUES... As I teach the above, people realize that I am not bias to either side of the teaching of tongues or any other gift. It appears that Paul commands the Ephesians to speak in tongues because he uses the expression: "Pray in the Spirit and also with understanding". Pray in the Spirit as opposed to praying with understanding in 1 Cor 14 specially in verse 19 is in the context of speaking in tongues. Indeed tongues is the smaller of all gifts. It is true that is rendered unuseful today It is true that Prophecies are abused by the Pentecostal who believe that we are still receiving word from God whether it matches the Bible or not... and this is WRONG! It is true that the Charismatic movement made a mockery out of the Gifts of the Spirit. It is true that Charismatics and Pentecostals confuse the gift of knowledge with the "ability to tell of someone's life". They call it personal revelation, which is not in the Bible. It is true that Pentecostals and Charismatics, specially TV preachers, have taken the gift of HEALINGS to an extreme that is USED OF THE DEVIL, and SERVES THE DEVIL MORE THAN IT DOES GOD. I believe all of you have good sources, however, a little balance will help US all understand this subject with no prejudices (to judge previously) or preconceived ideas. This is not a personal attack on anyone, it is just a plight for us to study the Gifts of the Spirit through an unbiased source. I could help, but because of all the prejudices against my teachings in this forum I believe I should take my teaching to a more receptive source. With them PERSONALLY I can go through the Bible and Systematic Theology and different theologians and Greek Lexicons, so we can learn together. But I do feel that I have the right and the duty to beg our brothers and sisters to study the Gifts of the Spirit (The Spirituals) without the load of the traditional views. You're all blessed whether or not you agree with me... As I often JOKE, you all will agree with me when you're in heaven since then, you will know all things... (just a joke!) As for me, I will continue to pray for the GREATER OF ALL GIFTS: LOVE and attempt to apply this LOVE in my teaching. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
TELEIOS Since I am unemployed,with no place to preach until Sunday, I studied this TELEIOS word again and again today with all its variations. I used Taylor and Spyro Zhodiates and few other concordances and lexicons. Also, I have a Greek N.T. with a copy of one of the earliest manuscripts and am able to read a little Greek since my teacher in Bible College was really good. The summary is that TELEIOS: IS INDEED THE COMPLETION OF A GOAL OR A PURPOSE. SO, 1 COR. 13:8-12 SPEAKS OF TELEIOS AS A COMPLETION... "WHEN COMPLETION COMES..." HOWEVER IS THE COMPLETION OF A GOAL AND A PURPOSE AS MENTIONED ABOVE. IT HAS TO BE GOD'S GOAL AND PURPOSE, (MY INFERRENCE) SINCE IT COULD NOT BE MAN'S PURPOSE, NOT EVEN PAUL'S GOALS. THEN I WENT TO THE BIBLE AND TRY TO FIND ANY EVIDENCE THAT GOD EVER HAD "A PURPOSE OR A GOAL" TO LEAVE US A BIBLE OR EVEN IF HE MAIN GOAL OR PURPOSE WOULD BE TO LEAVE US A CANNON. AS MUCH AS I LOVE MY BIBLE AND THINK IT TO BE PERFECT AND COMPLETE AND INERRANT AND GOD'S WORD I COULD NOT FIND ANYWHERE IN IT THAT GOD HAS OR HAD AS HIS ULTIMATE PURPOSE TO LEAVE US A BIBLE. IT ITS HIS GOAL TO PRESERVE HIS WORD, AND TO LEAVE US A REVEALTION, THAT THIS IS NOT HIS ULTIMATE GOAL FOR OUR LIVES. WHAT I DID FIND, THOUGH, IS THAT HIS ULTIMATE GOAL AND PURPOSE FOR US WAS TO: RESTORE US TO HIS GLORY RESTORE US TO HIS IMAGE BY MAKING US INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS OWN SON MAKE US INCORRUPTIBLE AGAIN TAKE US FOREVER TO BE WITH HIM THESE THINGS HE WANTS TO COMPLETE IN US AND IN COLOSSIANS 2 AND HEBREWS TELLS US THAT IN HIS SIGHT WE ARE ALREADY COMPLETED AND MADE PERFECT. BUT WE'RE STILL SEEING OURSELVES LIKE LOOKING IN A PIECE OF POLISHED BRASS, THE MIRROR OF PAUL'S DAYS, WHERE BECAUSE WE SEE OUR IMAGE DARKLY WE DO NOT KNOW OURSELVES AS GOD KNOWS OURSELVES. WHEN WE KNOW OURSELVES AS GOD KNOWS OURSELVES, WHEN WE ARE RESURRECTED AND INCORRUPTIBLE, THEN "COMPLETION" HAS OCCURRED. THEN WE WILL NOT NEED ANY AID ANYMORE! I probably need help! If anyone can find a scripture that shows me that God's ultimate purpose for us was to leave us a Cannon, show me, because I wore out two pairs of contact lenses looking for it and could not find such a scripture. I really beg for help! No sarcasm intended. After these few posts, MANY OF YOU WILL PRAY THAT I GET A JOB SOON SO I WILL NOT WRITE ANYMORE, AND IF YOU PRAY, I WILL START SPENDING, BECAUSE GOD WILL HEAR YOUR PRAYERS! (CHUCKLES...) Grace Ambassador | ||
| Kelly |
GA, I am shocked by your last post--again you have responsed defensively (appearing to be in the attack mode)and arrogantly. There was nothing in Lori's post that was directed toward you personally and nothing in her post that was not based upon the original Greek language. Her interpretation of this passage is identical to mine. You speak of LOVE but then you attack those who post an opposing opinion. Others have honored you with respect by reading your post and not responding in a defensive way. In virtue love you should easily be able to respond in a similiar appropriate manner. I just read your "thank you" note--and then to find another venomous post so near it????? Paul also writes: "But avoid FOOLISH CONTROVERSIES and genealogies and ARGUMENTS and quarrels about the law, because these are UNPROFITABLE and useless." I will take the advise that Paul gave to Titus: "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." I believe that in the past you have shown through your post on this site that you are only here for a single purpose-to flaunt self and cause division. I have read many of your attacks on others who post here, enough is enough. And, I am confident after you read this post of mine that I will become your most recent target. My heart goes out to you--it seems that you desperately want others to see, notice and respond to your intelligence. Why must you set yourself against those who post here as "enemies"? That is the way your postings have come across to me. Are you desperately seeking for happiness, love and approval? You will not find satisfaction even if all the others who visit here and read your comments write you back and say what great revelation you gave them. If we all made the decision to take your comments as the gospel truth this would still not bring you lasting happiness. Your over-reactions to what others post indicate that you must have a huge void in your life--only Christ can fill that void? Mutual affirmation will not do it. |
