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Kelly
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Lori, for taking the time to post your study notes. They were extremely helpful to me!!!
Lori
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly: I'm pleased the notes were helpful. You really shouldn't have risen to my defense, it's O.K., I fear that you have only set GA's mind against you as well.



GA, your difficulty with the passage in 1 Corinthians 13 seems to be based upon your refusal to acknowledge it as a noun.

Does the Canon of Scripture does not HAVE to be "God's ultimate goal for mankind" in order for it to be represented by the noun teleios in that passage?
Graceambassador
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Lighten up!!! My APOLOGIES!
Please, it is long, but read it all:

Have some fun, this is an Internet Forum! It is not like we'll solve the problems of the world here!

I intended (and obviously failed miserably) to be humorous... I wish you could see my face while I was writing. I have more misunderstandings here that I have in foruns where people are allowed to call others bad names... They at least can take a joke! Note my total disregard for the English language in the elluded post... It was intended to be a joke. You guys sound like the "democrats" who run the indgnation industry. I am proud to say that perhaps I am to you what Rush Limbaugh is to the Democrats... However, I INTENDED TO BE HUMOROUS!

I APOLOGIZE IF MY HUMOROUS ATTEMPT SADDENED SOME! As I often say, please, do not lose your victory and try not to be preachy. And instead of calling me defensive when I am trying to be humorous, why not deal with the "counter-arguments" I presented?

NOW SOME ANSWERS:
No! I DO accept it as a NOUN. TELEIOS IS A NOUN! I agreed with the technical arguments of Kelly right at the start. I just REFUSE to see it why it is the Cannon of the Bible. If we have to infer something ALLOW THE BIBLE TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE AND LET'S DRAW OUR INFERENCES FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF!

See, the SDA's always had the Bible interpreted to them. Interpretations were given with additions and inferences based upon junk-theology. Now I AM DEFENDING THAT THE BIBLE HAS TO DEFEND AND INTERPRET ITSELF BEFORE WE DRAW INFERENCES FROM HISTORY and this is the only protection we have from people who want to ADD interpretation to the Bible. This is my only point. If God had a purpose to reveal to us in any scripture that He would leave us a Cannon, which He did anyway, there would be a CLEAR TEXT AND CONTEXT WITH NO NEED FOR A PRETEXT.SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS IS THE MODALITY, OR GOD'S COMMON PRACTICE IN ALL OTHER REVELATIONS. WHY WOULD HE CHANGE NOW ONLY IN THIS INSTANCE? Again, the Mormons would say that God's word needed to be complemented with the Book of Mormons. Thus, "that which is perfect" for them could be construed as the Book of Mormon. This is an inference that it is as bad as any other PICKED AWAY FROM THE BIBLE. Hence I prefer to go to the BIBLE and find what it was promised about PERFECTION, COMPLETION AND THE NOUM TELEIOS, and conclude with the AID OF THE BIBLE what it actually means. I use such a technic to debate theologians and they cannot show me an iota of BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE NOUN TELEIOS IS REFERRING TO A FUTURE CANNON. That is it! My opinion based upon some reasonable Biblical outlook, where the BIBLE IS SELF SUFICCIENT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE. I do not believe that I am the one who is trying to make a point without reasoning!

I would expect of anyone who believes that the Bible is the PERFECT CANNON, AS WE DO, THAT THEY WOULD USE THIS PERFECTION TO CHECK ITSELF AND FIND ITS OWN EQUILIBRIUM. I find it strange when people say that that they rightfully believe that the Bible is a PERFECT CANNON and then go elsewhere to ADD INTERPRETATION TO IT... That is my miserably humble opinion. I am defensive of my point of view, not of what I am.

Why would God, when inspiring Paul to write about the Spirituals, would inspire him to reveal to us that something SUBSTANTIVE and PERFECT was coming, and then He would reveal something OUT OF THE REST OF THE REVELATION WHICH IS THE SAME REVELATION THAT HE THROUGH THE AGES INTENDED TO REVEAL? I can quote many scripures of God's intended TELEIOS future to us that are far more important than revealing to us that a Perfect Cannon would be coming. Think about it! That is my point... the BIBLE INTERPRETS BIBLE

I was also surprised that points were made with total disregard for the continuation of the subject in chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians and that's why I asked the "rethorical" questions as to "what language God does not speak"... etc... no evil intended, PLEASE!. I expect that one who argues the Bible, at least so much as READ IT! hOW CAN THEY HAVE IGNORED CHAPTER 14? (I am referring to the sources of Lori's comments).

This is not so uncommon. People often refer to sources that totally disregard the whole body of writing on the subject in Corinthians. Therefore, they draw inferences from chapter 12 and attack tongues. Then they do the same and attack prophecies... Then they make statements as Lori's source made above... It was not intended directly to Lori but to the common sources today of commentaries on the gifts of the Spirit (The Spirituals). Furthermore, I cannot believe that people think TODAY that the Spirituals are somehow a threat to modify the Perfect Cannon when they WERE not AND THEY ARE NOT, in spite of the explanation of Lori or Lori's source.

Please, again, if I have to treat subjects here with the seriousness of solving the hunger problem in the world, then I will refer you back to the names I've been called in this forum that I never used myself of anyone. AND I THINK THEY WERE FUNNY AND I NEVER SAW YOU KELLY WITH YOUR SEASONED (proven here, no doubt) EXHORTATION TELL THEM THAT WE SHOULD NOT CALL OUR BRETHREN SUCH NAMES! You could have been a great help to all of us then! WERE WHERE YOU! Neglecting your gift? (here I am joking again...) And there is vast evidence of that in the archives of this forum...

But I promise to be more of a failed Calvin that a successful Jay Leno next time...

Before I am "yelled at" again, please, deal with my proposition: LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET THE BIBLE!. Also reflect a little bit on my arguments and not my presentation. Don't kill the messenger!

Again, if I offended anyone, MY APOLOGIES!!!
Let the PEACE OF GOD rule in your hearts!

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not really want to belabor the argument on tongues, but I want to stress my original point. I see you as judging others and that is wrong. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, those tens of thousands who claim to have the gift of tongues are either crazy in the head, lying (pretending) or telling the truth. You can delve into the tenses, conditions, roots and cultural interpretations, but no where can you tell me that speaking in tongues is wrong. The purpose of I. Cor. 13 is an aside in Paul's dissertation on the church's spiritual gifts to properly explain to them the greatest gift of all, that of love.
The future time that Paul is speaking of in these verses refers to a time far greater than when the canon is complete. It refers to when we meet Jesus. In v. 12-13 it says, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Who can say the completion of the canon has ever done that? For that matter, why does "knowledge pass away" when the canon is complete like it says in v. 8?
Lori, I confess to being confused. In one post you say the gift of tongues is given to those who do not speak the same tongue as those to whom they are witnessing, and in another you say it is to evangelize the Jews. Putting those together, to you, speaking in tongues is a giving of the koine Greek to those who speak another language for the purpose of evangelization, something never even hinted at in Scripture, especially in I. Cor. 12-14. If the purpose is for evangelization, then why does Paul say there should always be an interpreter when tongues is spoken in public? (I. Cor 14:27-28) And why does he say unbelievers will be confused if they happen upon the church while tongues are being spoken? (I. Cor 14:23-24)
My only point remains: don't judge other Christians for what they are doing/not doing if it is not condemned in Scripture.
Graceambassador
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windmotion:
I agree with you in your assessment, but I think Lori was referring to a source that did not read chapter 14. Sadly so!

My quest is still on: To discuss with someone who:
1- Reads the Bible
2- Interprets Bible with the Bible
3- Shows me corroborating evidence that God changed His:

a - method of revealing His plan
b - structural organization
c - system of revelation
d - that we need to "discover" because He failed to reveal, thereby making the mystery not revealed
completely.
c - changed His Modus Operandi through the ages of how He discloses His future plans to us.

All just to insert the "Cannon of the Bible" using the NOUN Teleios in 1 Cor. 13.

One has to CHANGE GOD'S ENTIRE process, including to claim that he left parts of His revelation still "ocult" (I speak about Grace and not prophecy or the book of Revelation) and left for us to conclude what He was saying.

This is my only quest!

If I've been disrespectful, I APOLOGIZE TO YOU AS WELL. But to atack the messenger when not agreeing with the message should not be a practice among God's Children.

Again, you MAKE GREAT POINTS. And if it sounds that I attacked anyone who speaks in tongues, here goes another APOLOGY.

I am in an apologetic mood today...

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

grace, I accept the biblical canon as a man-made thing, but a thing certainly guided by the hand of God. To do anything less is to deny the power of God in my view.
--Hannah
Loneviking
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly and Lori..

Please, sisters in Christ, lighten up a bit as G.A. isn't attacking you. As he mentioned, its' very difficult to convey emotions through writing. Further, you should be giving him a pat on the back for doing what the Bible commands us to do----read it/study it carefully/ and then do what the Bible says. That was the model for the Bereans and thats' what G.A. is doing as well.

G.A.....
I have one big problem with finding the end of the world as the 'perfection' that is foretold. My problem is that this is self evident!! Of course miracles will cease then---so why mention this? This is why I still stick with the idea that the completion of Scripture is what was mentioned.

Further, on your 'show me' list, numbers A and C are ones that you know are answered in the affirmative. I don't have time this a.m to look up the verse, but you know it well that says:

'But in ages past, holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, but in these latter times'...............then what does it say? Something to the effect that we know have the testimony of Jesus? Clearly, there is a change.

This also goes to point C, that the method of Revelation has changed. Another corroborating text is the Gospel text that says that "He will leave us a Comforter, and He will lead us into all truth." Clearly this is something that the Jews didn't have and is a method of Revelation that is 'new'.

Finally, the structural organization question is the easiest. The Jews had the temple and the Law. We Christians have the Spirit and Grace. These two are not, and cannot be, the same.

In Christian love,
Bill
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L.V. Great arguments! They are indeed more within my style of argumentation!

My refusal to believe that the "Cannon" can be inserted there is purely because there is no pattern in the Bible of the same kind of "injection" of a subject such as that. I am sorry that I cannot convey this more clearly. Perhaps, when I debate the issue personally, I have a broader opportunity to make my point.
Such point, however, is being accepted by a few scholars that I know since if we INSERT THE INFERENCE THAT IT IS THE CANNON, then, we can INSERT JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IN SCRIPTURES THAT ARE APPARENTLY NOT FULLY REVEALED (AND I CAN EXPLAIN ALL OF THEM) SUCH AS:

"I have much to say but you cannot bear now"
There is a author today that explains all the exagerations of the Charismatic movement based upon this scripture. He uses this scripture to prove that "revelations" (not the book of Revelations) go beyond the scope of the Bible. He is very famous and I discussed his material with a vicar of the C.E.C. or Charismatic Episcopal Church, a very erudit scholar. He agreed with me that what the Jewish disciples could not bear then was what Paul was to teach later about Grace and the ending of the "shadow" period. SDA's, jewish people and others cannot bear this even today! But as you see, it is an APPARENT UNFINISHED text that leave room for a "continuation" beyond the Bible if we are careless and allow non-standard biblical injections to be made in there.

Also, John says that there were many things that Jesus did and could not fit in the Book...
Many inject their interpretation and say that historically Jesus did this and that and that the "church" should follow the insight of their leaders of what such a thing is...

Also, Jesus said that the Spirit would remind us of many things that Jesus did. I know of cults that take this scripture to mean that they would know the above that was not recorded in the Book. Simply because the Spirit would REMIND THEM! (you can't take part on these cults if you have Alzheimer's)

All these injections and insertions and assumptions so called "interpretations" can be fully justified,whether you like it or not, if we allow them to occur in SO MUCH AS IN ONE text.

My point is that there is no pattern in the Bible of any of the above that we can infer from. And there is no pattern in the Bible that God ever planned to leave such an important revelation so obscure that we had to "insert it" and "infer upon it".

As I said, Kelly's arguments are correct but I believe the insertion is wrong.

Paul was talking about us not seeing very well through a polished brass (the mirror). He said that to compare how we see ourselves today. I do not believe that our Perfect Cannon allows us today to see us as PERFECTLY AS GOD'S SEES US. Then this mirror would be a methafor (or is it metaphor?...whatever) for our faith. Plus, something must be wrong with me since I cannot see myself as I am seen by God by reading the Bible. I still need a lot to go. We can ONLY see ourselves PERFECT, or PERFECTION (THE NOUN FORM OF THE VERB PERFECT) when we'll see us as He sees us. But now we can know it by faith in the Revealed word that says in Colossians that "we are complete (perfect) in Him".

To say that we will not need a Cannon when we are made perfect is rather circular. Of course we will not need a Cannon then! So PERFECTION must mean our incorruptible Bodies. Then all that is temporary will cease and the eternal will remain. I hope you are willing to agree with me that ONLY THE ETERNAL WILL DO AWAY WITH THE TEMPORAL!. You ALREADY ADMITTED, I GATHER, THAT WE WILL NOT NEED A BIBLE WHEN WE ARE TRANSFORMED FOREVER, THUS THE BIBLE IS NOT "ETERNAL" AS THE WORD "ETERNAL" THAT WE DISCUSS HERE!
I like your arguments! They are within the approach I take to revelation (again I called the body of the Holy Writ "revelation" and I am not refering to the book of Revelation) I appreciate your effort to attempt to understand this pityful (for some pit bull) servant of God. Also, thank you for giving me credit and at least appearing to read my arguments in its entirety. But I will not insert PERFECT CANNON in there for a lack of a previous pattern and because I have to go outside the Bible to interpret the Bible, and do that just to write off a tremendous portion of the early church history as NOT AN EXAMPLE for us. Sadly for most, TO DO SUCH an insertion, or to interpret that way ONLY TO justify our aversion for any manifestation of the Gifts of the Spirit.

On the specific answers to my arguments, remember that each one of your points (correct answers) above HAD A PREVIOUS PATTERN. You can find most of them either promised or prophesied in the O.T. and early N.T. God had forecast in the past the:

1 - New Thing
2 - New People
3 - New revelators/new speakers/new spokespersons
4 - New Covenant

This is what I call pattern: You have to find a hint of it in the Bible! WINDMOTION is correct! There are people today that consider even the division of chapters and verses as "INSPIRED".
I do not see the same PATTERN for a prediction or prophecy of a "PERFECT CANNON" and could not inject that in there. (Again, my point DOES NOT, DOES NOT AGAIN, INTEND TO DEFEND THE PENTECOSTAL/CHARISMATIC STANCE. THEY DO NOT ACCEPT WHAT I MAKE OF THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT EITHER. MY POINT DEFENDS THAT THE BIBLE IS SELF SUFFICIENT TO INTERPRET ITSELF AND TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.

You put up with my jokes before, so, again thank you for your understanding!

A rib-popper fraternal hug! (not rib-breaker). A sloppy agape kind of hug!

Grace Ambassador
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L.V.
Forgive me for leaving out a VERY IMPORTANT AND FAIR POINT YOU MADE IN YOUR PREVIOUS POST.

Don't take it as lack of courtesy, but I will answer you with another question:

G.A.....
I have one big problem with finding the end of the world as the 'perfection' that is foretold. My problem is that this is self evident!! Of course miracles will cease then---so why mention this?


my answer, again is a question:

Why would John, writing about heaven had to REVEAL that God will wipe away all our tears?
Of course we know that there would be "No tears in heaven" as Eric Clapton said (not inspired).
Of course the Bible and the Epistles were written for the consolation of the Church. As a matter of fact Paul tells us to use the words of the end time to "comfort one another". Thus the need to "reveal" what there was not need to be revealed.
It is as me saying to you (not inspired...):
Brother, don't worry about your woes here on earth! They will all end in heaven! Of course they will...

Again, sorry for leaving this point out of my answers!

Another sloppy Joe Agape!

Grace Ambassador
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more thing:
(I watched too many Columbo shows...)

Want to know why some of the Bible writers were inspired to write the "apparent obvious"?

Because of the very issue we're discussing here:

"THEY DID NOT HAVE THE BIBLE AS WE DO TODAY".

To propose that a Bible writer could not possibly be writing the obvious is obviously unfair to the early Christians since WE AS THE READERS OF TODAY, THE BENEFICIARIES OF A BETTER COVENANT OF BETTER THINGS, HAVE THE MANUAL IN OUR HANDS!

Now, I untangle my cape from your door and leave in my beat up car! (speaking of Columbo... not inspired...)

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GA, could you explain simply, without a lot of clutter, what your position on the gifts of the Spirit is?
--Hannah
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Hannah:

1 - they are for today
2 - to be practice strictly under the guidance of Paul in Corinthians 12 through 14.

Some clutter is required: (1 Cor. 14)

-The one who speaks in tongues, speaks mysteries unto God. (I can only surmise that they are praying for something that God wants them to pray. Perhaps a form of Spiritual prayer, in the will of God. Some say it is the "groaning" of the Spirit that cannot be uttered interceding for our weaknesses refered to by Paul. Compare ch. 14:14 with Romans 8:26.
It was present in the Ephesians Church as well because Paul commands them to pray "in the Spirit" (see verses 14-15-16 and Ephesians 6:18. This is the same term Paul used of himself in 1 Corinthians when refering to praying in tongues. Tongues is the smallest of all gifts and the most "selfish" of all since the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself. vs. 4

- Interpretation of tongues is NOT EQUAL TO PROPHECY. It is unclear what is the purpose other that what Paul says: "so others can understand and say AMEN", verse 16. The term "understand and say Amen" indicates that it must be a Spiritual prayer supernaturally in the will of God. (There is a Biblical pattern for this inference)

- Prophecy: A word seeking to exhort, comfort and edification of the Church. They (prophecies) are to be judged by the Bible and are not to modify the written word. It is also a supernatural disclosure of the secrets of one's heart for EDIFICATION, EXHORTATION AND COMFORT. See verse 24 and 25 of 1 Corinthians 14. I've witnessed this many times. It is great to promote EDIFICATION, EXHORTATION AND COMFORT TO THE BODY. BUT IT IS NOT GOD'S NATIONAL ENQUIRER, OR TABLOID, AS THE PENTECOSTAL NORMALLY USE

- Knowledge and wisdom are the God given knowledge perceived so many times in the Bible where His servants had insights that they could not have had by human means

- Healing are PEOPLE who have the gift of promoting healing in the Body of Christ as well as in the physical body. Note that this is the only gift referred to in the PLURAL, or COLLECTIVE NOUN.

- Working of miracles is self explanatory. Not related to TV ministries...

Note the difference of words such as:
administration
operation
manifestation..

Now,JUST AN ASIDE...LONEVIKING will love me for this:
If we take chapter 14 entirely and in the context, we have to take verse 34-35. It 1 Cor 14 is a UNIVERSAL part of this Epistle, then verses 34-35 must be taken as UNIVERSAL. If it is a local problem, than we must check SCRIPURE WITH THE SCRIPTURE, meaning, we have to look elsewhere in the Scriptures as to what Paul says about women.

All the above gifts DO HAVE A PATTERN IN THE BIBLE BOTH IN THE NEW AND THE OLD TESTAMENT AS I DEFINED PATTERN IN ANOTHER POST. So, the inferences on what these gifts are can be RICHLY found in the Bible.

DISCLAIMERS:

Paul speaks of the Thessalonians as an EXAMPLE to other churches, (1 Thess. 1 verse 7) and there is no mention that they practice the Gifts. THEREFORE MY TAKE IS THAT GIFTS ARE NOT A SIGN OF SUPERIORITY OF OVER SPIRITUALITY. God is THE GIVER, THE ADMINISTRATOR, THE OPERATOR AND THE MANIFESTATOR.

PAUL, HIMSELF DID NOT PRACTICE THE GIFT OF HEALING, (ACTUALLY "GIFTS") NEITHER CLAIMED TO POSSESS SUCH A GIFT WHEN TIMOTHY HAD AN ILLNESS IN HIS STOMACH AND EPAPHRODITUS WAS SICK.

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE AMONG THEOLOGIANS THAT PAUL HAD AN INFECTION IN THE EYE PROVOKED BY HIS CONSTANT BEATINGS. HE DID NOT EXERCISE HIS GIFTS OF HEALINGS HERE OR NEVER CLAIMED TO POSSESS SUCH A GIFT. THE BIBLICAL PATTERN, TO USE MY OWN METHOD IS THAT HE SAYS IN GALATIANS ABOUT HIS GROSS APPEARENCE AND HOW THE GALATIANS WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM THEIR VERY EYES PLUCKING THEM OFF THEIR OWN FACES. GALATIANS 4:12-15. (THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TORN IN THE FLESH WHO WAS AN ACTUAL ANGEL OF SATAN).

You did not ask me why the Pents and Charis do not accept my explanation so I am not telling you either... (chuckles)

THE KEY WORDS ARE: BALANCE, MODERATION AND LOVE in all matters of theological practice and relationships in the Body of Christ.

THE ABOVE IS WHAT I TEACH HERE, IN MY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE I TEACH IN THE SUBJECT. NO SECRETS, ONLY THE REVEALED WORD.

I hope this is clean enough for you.

You're blessed according to Eph 1:3

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GA, thank you, that was insightful and essentially what I believe. I do have a couple of clarifications though. You say you cannot find where the Thesselonians practice any of the gifts. But you must realize the possiblity that Paul just neglected to mention it. Or you can argue that he did mention it in passing in I Thesselonians 5:19-20 when he tells them "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt."
Also, referencing I. Corinthians 12, I believe every Christian receives at least one spiritual gift that he is to use as part of the Body of Christ. What a Christian does with that gift is up to him. Not everyone is expected to have the gift of healing or the gift of tongues if they have received the Holy Spirit.
What is your view?
--Hannah
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Hannah!
Correct! You gave me new insights! And you seem to be very well seasoned in the subject!
Thanks!!

Grace Ambassador
Trippllb
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! I go away for a long weekend and look what I come back to. :-) I just thank God that he hasn't sent me on a quest to find the truth on this one yet. As a newbie here, I'm still looking at the Sabbath. I think that this is a great forum for an open exchange of ideas, but this one seems to have brought out the fire in people.

GA, I don't agree or disagree with the points you have made above. The spirit (pardon the obvious pun here) in which you presented them from time seemed a bit antagonistic, but you present your case well and maybe I am misconstruing your passion for the subject as antagonism. It's so hard to read the face of a computer screen. I believe that people can differ in their beliefs and still have a good FRIENDLY exchange of ideas. To be honest though, you made a statement a good way up the string that concerned me. You said "Thank you and I hope you at least believe my set of beliefs as written above!" I truly hope that this was a typo and not the view that we needed to believe what you believed in this case. We can all disagree in the things that are nonessential, and last time I checked, spiritual gifts were in no way essential to our walk with Christ.
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey All!

How about ending in the nice tone I had with Hannah and Loneviking?

I do not want this threat to have to be ended as the one about Predestination where I was censored for defending such an important Biblical principle.

I do not think it is wise to GO BACK TO WHAT TRIPLLBB, or whatever his/her name is, CALLS ANTAGONISM JUST BECAUSE HE/SHE missed all the "action".

So, I am stopping here. Please do not feel that I am hard of hearing if I do not respond to any more answers to my points: I am not hard of hearing neither had a computer failure. I just chose to stop in good terms...

A sloppy Agape to you all. (this means an "akward fraternal, loving, Holy fraternal embrace).

Grace Ambassador
http://embassyofgrace.net
http://embassyofgrace.org
Grace.Ambassador@embassyofgrace.org
Kim
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GA and all,

I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this forum. I'm a newbie at studing the bible on my own and this forum has helped me to find scriptures. The only church I ever knew was SDA and it is so confusing to find a new chruch. Everyone interprets scripture in a different way and there are many different denominations out there. I don't want to leave one false belief for another. I don't have people to study with, but I do believe God is guiding me in my search. (Basically, that would make you guys my study group.)

This subject is of particular interest to me at this time. I have several christian friends who have joined churches that believe in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, healings and prophecy. They have invited me to visit their churches. I've been hesitant, never really believed or understood the gifts and how they would relate in my life. I am open to where God will lead me on this subject.

Just wanted to let ALL of you know, that each and every one of you has/and will have an impact on someone's life.

p.s. GA, I enjoyed your above post about your position on the Gifts. You stated that the Pents and Charis do not accept your explanation. Would you explain?

Kim
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any discussion of the gifts of the Spirit is incomplete without mentioning the fruit of the Spirit. Paul is clear, especially in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, that Christ-followers do receive spiritual gifts. The key to understanding their importance is this: "All these (gifts) are the work of the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." (1 Corinthians 12:11)

The Trinity is the source of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:4-6), and Christ-followers receive them from the Holy Spirit according to God's sovereign will. The purpose of the gifts is for the building of the body of Christ. (Ephseians 4:12-13) Spiritual gifts are for all Christ-followers, and God alone knows when and to whom each gift should be given. In fact, I believe that God's spiritual gifts to us sometimes come to us with work God assigns. That work may change from time to time, and God's spiritual gifts to us may increase or change depending upon his call to us at any given time.

The reason 1 Cor. 13 is between 1 Cor. 12 and 1 Cor. 14, I believe, is that Paul was emphasizing that spiritual gifts are essentially pointless without love. Love is the greatest of all gifts--in fact, true love is God in us. 1 Corinthians 13 is saying that everything we know will ultimately disappear when we see Christ face to face. Only then will we know him fully, as he now knows us.

The take-home message from 1 Corinthians, for me, is that spiritual gifts are God's provision for us as long as we live in sinful flesh in a sinful world. We will have no need for them when we are given new bodies and enjoy perfection when we see Christ face to face. Everything--prophecies, tongues, knowledge--will disappear when we see face to face. (1 Cor. 13:8) Love alone will remain.

1 Corinthians 13:13 has the most powerful statement of all: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." Even faith and hope will disappear when we see face to face. What we hope for and believe in by faith will be tangible reality. Faith and hope will be swallowed up in reality, just as the law was only a shadow pointing to Jesus. The reality always replaces the shadow pointing to it.

The amazing news is that Love is not a shadow. It is the one thing we have that is eternal. Love is truly the presence of God in us. When we see face to face love will continue--in fact, it will increase. Love is the one proof that a person is truly a Christ-follower. (1 John 2:9-11; John 13:35)

The fruit of the Spirit (and notice that it is not plural fruits but singular fruit) is the same for every Christ-follower: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." (Galatians 5:22-23, 26)

Gifts of the Spirit without the fruit are more damaging than helpful. When we accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, he changes us and gives us a new heart--we live in a new reality. The fruit of the Spirit is what the Hoky Spirit begins to imprint in us. The gifts become almost a moot point. In fact, sometimes we are conscious of what our gifts are; sometimes we function in the Spirit without being conscious of using certain gifts.

God never intended for the gifts of the Spirit to be points of conflict or division or argument. In fact, 1 Corinthians 12-14 deal with that very problem. The Corinthians, apparently, were focusing on certain gifts (especially tongues) and being manipulative and disruptive with them. Paul wrote these chapters to help them see the gifts in perspective.

Church history, in fact, tells us that the church in Corinth, which was sick and in need of repentance and growth, never really cleaned up its act in spite of Paul's prayers and epistles to it. By about 100 A.D. the Corinthian church had fallen apart and no longer existed. The lesson, I believe, is that whenever we focus on doctrines or practices or our differences and jealousies instead of the cross, we lose our power, our love, and ultimately our intimacy with Jesus.

I thank God that he reveals himself to us, and that he places his love in our hearts. I thank him that he lives in us, and I pray that we all give all of ourselves--our beliefs, our questions, our minds, our hearts, our bodies, our fears, our dreams, our families, our work--to him. Knowing Jesus and loving him is the one thing that makes life a thing of joy and beauty in spite of the pain and the self-surrender through which he leads us.

I praise God for his Love!
Colleen
Sammi
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 4:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Colleen for your post. I echo Kim, this forum has become my Bible study group in a way. Colleen, your posts always encourage me, and I can understand them a little more easily than some of the others (I'm still amazed at the depth in thinking and knowledge of many of this forum's contributors!)

GA, I've very much enjoyed your posts too, but admit to not knowing "what the heck you are talking about" :) (smiley face) at times - (if only we could show our emotions and expressions through the computer, so many misunderstandings would be avoided I think.)

Kim, I did not understand what GA meant by the Pents and Charis not accepting his explanation either, but it sounds like he is finished with us for a while.

Trippllb, I'm where you're at, still grappling with the Sabbath issue. The Bible is pretty clear to me on this issue, just trying/asking God to give me courage and a path to go where He is leading. I will continue to keep you and others in my prayers, and ask the same of you. Thanks!

Love and prayers to all, Sammi
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim and Sammi and all:
Thanks a million for your words! They mean a lot to me since my purpose is to cause people to think and reflect, rather than impose a "doctrinal" thinking (if I could...)

I take your "smiley face" Sammi! And, wow! Do I understand your "what the heck" in a rather friendly way! I got a kick out of it and laughed at it with great pleasure! I often say: IN THEOLOGY, WHAT IS NOT BROKEN, BREAK IT, and if it seems to be OBVIOUS, IT IS NOT!. This position makes me to go so far from tradidion that I am often misunderstood. So what? Paul was misunderstood and had TO BE DEFENSIVE ABOUT HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY. READ 1 COR 9. I am a frequent in foruns since my ministry is in the Internet. However I stopped because in some foruns "ad hominen" is welcome. I am a Reverend who depises this title, I pastored before and now I help Pastors. But, since I am in the Web, I often risk my credibility and give my insights "for free" to people who are only confrontational and do not want to learn BUT TO ARGUE. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING THAT FACIAL EXPRESSIONS SHOULD BE AT LEAST IMAGINED BEHIND THE WORDS SPOKEN HERE!

FINALLY NOUR ANSWERS:

The Pents and the Charis reject my teaching not because of any particular area of my teaching but because of this:

1- I believe "tongues" are the smallest and the most selfish of the gifts. Paul says that.
2- I believe that "tongues" must have some structure, such as grammar and a vocabulary. Paul says that if interpreted the tongues would be understood as a language. The BABBLING we hear in the Pent and Chari movement is more akin to an emotional jolt (it is not a sin to be emotional, God made us this way) but is not the tongues of the Bible.
3- I rejected to be the TV translator for the major TV preacher in the Pent/Chari movement to go with "himn" (pun intended) to Brazil and interpret for his cruzade there a few years ago. I rejected about US 1500 per night. (If you read this forum for long, I served as the TV voice for many ministries in America for the Portuguese Speaking world. Since I got paid well, my voice is still preaching WITH THEIR FACES in countries of the world where the Portuguese is spoken: about 300 million people). His internatinal diretor was baffled! I rejected for theological reasons. I cannot work with someone who preaches what I teach as error. This made the Pents and the Charis believe that I hate them. So they do not accept my teaching. (Do not attempt to make sense)
3- I teach PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION, thus, including PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS, meaning, God will PRESERVE us to Himself and we will not lose our SALVATION, the P's & C's decided that I am either anathema to them or TOO CALVINISTIC TO THEM. Funny is that the Calvinistic render me to CHARISMATIC! Great, perhaps this is God's balance!
4- I preach "balance". I teach that AN APPARENT TRUTH IN THE BIBLE THAT IS NOT BALANCED BY ANOTHER BIBLICAL TRUTH, IF EMPHASIZED, BECOMES ERROR. THEREFORE THE OVER EMPHASIZING OF THE GIFTS NOT PROPERLY BALANCE BY THE FRUITS, THE OVER EMPHASIZING OF TONGUES WITHOUT OTHER IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF OUR SPIRITUAL LIVES IS ERROR! IF GRACE IS TAUGHT AS LICENSIOUSNESS, THEN GRACE IS AN ABUSE OF GOD'S GIFT, THUS NOT GRACE. IT IS AN ERROR. I maintain that balance is not in the center of the scale, BUT IT IS IN BOTH SIDES OF THE SCALE WHEN WE PUT IN EACH SIDE WEIGHTS OF EQUAL VALUE!
They do not like that as the Mormons do not like it, the Jehovah Witness do not like it etc.. I refuse to accept the credentials from the A.G. because of this posision which the General Superintendent of the distric where I lived wanted me to recant!

I consider none of the reasons above "reasonable". But I have been cut from invitations to preach from even dear friends of mine because of ALL the above or one particular point.

Thanks for the interest! And Sammi, I hope you found the "heck"...(chuckles...)\

I sincerely want to end this subject in the nice tone of the latest posts. I agree with COLLEEN that we should consider the FRUITS ALONG WITH THE GIFTS. Unfortunately we could not even get there because, I think, THE MORE I TRIED TO MANAGE MY APPARENT ANTAGONISM, THE MORE I FAILED, AND I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY. In other foruns people say: THANK YOU MILTON FOR THAT JOKE, IT REALLY RELIEVED MY TENSION AND RAGE AGAINST YOU... Here people seem not to have their SDA's scars properly treated and this caused a "NEUROMA" like the one I have in my foot. A Neuroma can be very painful and I probably cause it to hurt by the way I speak. Be it far from me to make anyone hurt. So, I am stopping here in this thread, and the Web Sites addresses above, plus the e-mail address above can be used to reach me. BUT PLEASE, THIS IS THE MOST PERFECT FORUM IN THE WEB TO FORMER SDA's. So, do not go to my site since it is not its ministry to help former SDA's. If you are a former SDA, THIS IS YOUR PLACE! Perhaps in other threads I can be more sucssesful!

Although I poorly demonstraded, I love you all IN THIS FORUM in Christ and pray for your INNER HEALING!

Grace Ambassador
Milton Almeida

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