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Lori
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The statement was made "Paul did not have the gift of healing", this is a false statement. I just wanted to post Biblical texts that showed Paul did have the gift of healing!

Paul heals a lame man-Acts 14:8-11

God does extraordinary miracles through Paul: Acts 19:11,12

Paul raised Eutchus from the dead: Acts 20:7-12
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lori:
ThankYou for your correction. I hope it was in a Godly Christian way. But if you want to be vindictative of my exposure of your disregard for the accuracy of your source. Fine! But THE CONTEXT what I said is that PAUL NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE THE GIFT OF HEALING. The context of what I said was Paul did not heal the people I mentioned because then he was not using the gift if he had one as you pointed (correctly) out. He clearly said he had the gift of tongues but never clearly CLAIMED to have the gifts of Healing.

To call my statement false, when I gave you the courtesy of mentioning that "your source" was wrong and not you is something that I believe requires prayerfull reflection.
It is okay that you did not read 1 Cor 14 when mentioning your source and making your evaluations of PROPHETEUO AND TONGUES, I can understand such a slip, but if you do not consider the context of what I was saying, then it shows a pattern of writing without reflecting on that which is written.

Unlike you, I can take some antagonism! I am grown mature Christian who is willing to take correction and MAKE RESTITUTIONS when proven wrong!

So, if the false statement QUOTED BY LORI is perceived as FALSE, let me tell ALL OF YOU, I CARELESSLY PROCLAIMED A FALSEHOOD. But if my statement should be read in context, as probably ALL did, because they were not seeking "vengeance", then I am not the one who is spreading false statements.

By the way, what do you make of the rest of what I wrote?

Thanks anyway. I will notate your scriptures so when I write on the subject again I will be more careful.

So..., now you do believe in the Gifts of Healings as for today, Uh?. Either that or your bitterness set you off to look for something in what I said just to show revenge! It seems you're the only one who noticed and only noticed what you noticed!

The above question is just a rethorical question! No need to respond! I am done with the subject!

Grace Ambassador
Lori
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the clarification GA. Just for the record, I don't believe in the gifts of healing for today.

I do believe that God works miracles in people's lives but as far as these "healing ministers" I think they are false. Paul did not heal his friends for one of two reasons, either because it was not the will of God or because the gift of healing was no longer a viable gift at that time.

Regarding Cor. 14, I did not post a reply because the discussion of tongues was said to be ended--I abided by that.

I have completed a word by word exegetical study of those chapters all based upon the prophetic announcement of tongues in Isaiah 28.

Just as the Sabbath had a beginning and an end; Scripture set guidelines for the usage of tongues also.

I agree that many of the statements about tongues are confusing; and it is very easy to be mislead that is the reason that I posted a portion of the exegetical study that I had done in order to help given a more extensive basis for what Kelly had already posted.

I posted no more of it because whenever anyone contradicts your opinion your post come across with anger and you seem to take it as a personal conflict.

It seemed as if you said "Paul did not have the gift of healing because he didn't heal"--I was simply posting text that showed he did heal.

Please notice, I did not even include your name in the post that I wrote. I did not say GA made a false statement IN BOLD COLORS like you directed toward me.

It is not by intention to rise into a personal conflict with you--that it is of no benefit to anyone.

Kelly wrote that you both had stated your sides and that it was unprofitable for more postings yet you persisted. And you persist with bold colored printings that wreak of anger and accusations.

As for me, I am at perfect peace regarding my belief on what I'll call "the temporary gifts". Kelly said she would "prayfully take your viewpoint on the subject to God"; I did the same. If my viewpoint on the subject has deviated from Scripture in the slightest, I want to rectify it with God. I placed this issue between God and I; as of yet, I have felt no conviction that my opinion should change.

I don't have the need or desire to prove myself to you or anyone else. Because I'm living for God, not man.

The Canon of Scripture is our Manual for the Christian way of life. It is of great importance that mankind should know when the Manual is complete? This aids greatly in our Spiritual Journey because anything outside these pages can no longer be held up as Divine Inspiration, it limits the falsehoods that Satan can hit us with.

The Bible is the Mind of Christ. The complete character of God is revealed within those pages.

Isaiah 55:11 says, "So is my Word that goes out from my mouth, it will not return to me empty. but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it" God's purpose and desire for all those who believe is that we become spiritually mature!!! We can only become spiritually mature by means of diligent study of God's word.

The utmost important thing in my life is the daily intake of Bible truths and I will not wallow in distractions of meaningless arguments; these distractions are the devil attempts to sidetrack my spiritual life. We would all do well to avoid these things!

It's O.K. to have a different understanding of certain Biblical issues, no one has to get angry, We all came from different backgrounds, we all have different heresies to overcome. And, we all have not had the same opportunities for study. We all have to struggle through well meaning human viewpoints that sometimes distract us and put us in the "fog".

I have no desire to stand in the "fog" of confusion and arguments. I'm pressing forward to the goal Christ has set before me and I hope each one of you can do the same.

GA, I'm sorry, but you simply aren't big enough to make me feel bitterness toward you. Any bitterness in my mind, no matter where it originates, only hurts me!

Have you ever heard the saying "whoever controls your happiness, controls you". I learned a while back to never surrender my happiness to a stranger--not even in traffic!!

Jesus Christ is the commander of my happiness and in Him there is no bitterness, vindictiveness, anger, jealousy.......

"Forget what is in the past and press on to what lies ahead"

Lori
Loneviking
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of study groups, Colleen, is the FAF group still meeting this summer on Fridays? What time? I'll be in town for the July 20th meeting if you folks are still meeting during the summer. Let me know what time, O.K.?

Thanks,
Bill
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori:
My sincerest thanks for approaching me this time with such a kindness and courtesy. I think this is the REAL YOU!

Next time I sound "angry" to you, please, think of a middle aged man, with some gray hair, with his hand on his chin responding to others in a rather faltering tone of voice, like he is thinking to himself as he speaks: "is there anything I missed in this subject".... I guarantee you before the Lord, it is not "anger" as "anger" is construed in the world.
That was my tone when I asked for example: "What language God does not speak?"

Without being defensive, I tried a better tone before and it came accross as though I was being condescending... So, I think it is demanded of me what no one demans from another member in this forum...

There were other occasions in which I felt that your points were great and I mentioned that. So, I felt that I had the right of not understanding why you were saying what you were saying!

I am glad you're not bitter at me since as you said, my smallness is so insignificant that how can anyone be bitter at me?

I am also glad we can for a change finish this series in a lighter note and in a courteous tone.

May God richly bless you and continue to give you wisdom and favor before Him and men (as in mankind).

Be blessed above measure!

Grace Ambassador
Dennis
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God authenticated His message and the messenger through signs, wonders, and miracles. Anyone could have claimed to be a teacher or an apostle in the newly established church. The believers were rather naive and childlike and probably could have been easily misled. This new religion (Christianity), in its infant stages, had no Bible (NT), few leaders, and absolutely no support from the government.

Astounding that it survived, isn't it? How in the world did it survive with so little going for it? POWER. Not just a force, but mighty, visible power. This new church had speakers--apostles--but how were the followers of Christ to know the speakers were authentic? How did the believers know that men weren't making up things? If you were being persecuted for your belief, wouldn't you want to make sure the data you were risking your life for was accurate?

I personally believe there were sign gifts in this infant church as well as ministry gifts. They had different functions. The sign gifts (i.e., tongues, miracles, etc.), as previously stated, were to validate the message and messenger. The ministry gifts, listed in Romans 12:6-8, were for the members of the body to build one another up. In Corinth, the immature Christians were trying to outdo one another spiritually. Some could have misused the gift of tongues as a spiritual show-and-tell. Paul was trying to grow them up. They were supposed to be helping one another grow up, and that is seldom done through babbling. Telling forth the truth, yes. Uninterpreted talk, no.

I firmly believe tongues was a gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe the gift was legitimate and for a purpose. But what about the permanence of it? Is the gift still to be employed today? There is not need to the sign today because we have the complete revelation of God in the Bible. No new revelations are coming forth that need a sign to accompany them. The revelation is finished, and it does not need validation or authentication. The Holy Spirit gives illumination to His children so that we understand the truth in the Word, but the canon of Scripture is complete. Paul knew that day would come when the church would reach a level of maturity where it could put away the things of childhood (I Cor. 13:11).

Evidently, the gift of tongues was given to one church, a carnal, immature one at that. They were out of balance, and all the indications point to the fact that tongues caused problems. Paul did not mention the gift in Galatia and Ephesus, where he spoke much about the Spirit. If I live for signs, I am a spiritual babe. Oh, I believe He heals and does miracles today, but they are not for a sign. He does them out of love for His children.

The emphasis in the New Testament church was evangelism and growth--not healing and tongues. Paul stated his focus, "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (I Cor. 2:2). He told the Galatian church, "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of or Lord Jesus Christ." (Gal. 6:14). His emphasis is the Cross. It must be ours as well. Who is magnified in tongues? Who is magnified in the Cross?

In some churches, there is an invisible caste system. There are those who claim to have the sign gift of tongues and those who do not. That is totally unscriptural. When people say the "haves" have spoken in tongues and the "have-nots" have not spoken in tongues, they set up a harmful division between Spirit-filled believers. And it's not anybody's prerogative to claim the Father has a caste system of "haves" and "have-nots." We might. He doesn't.

In Christ,

Dennis J. Fischer
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Loneviking, we meet during the summer. Sometimes our numbers are smaller, but we still meet. Our meeting begins at 7:00 at Trinity Church in the ministry center. You are welcome!

Colleen
Graceambassador
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few questions to all:

I need to finish some material for some debate I will have in the near future about things we've been discussing here as of late. So, please, THESE QUESTIONS ARE NOT CONFRONTATIONAL.
I am seeking to have as many opinions as I can in the following questions

1-Since we know the anti Christ and his reps will use sign and wonders and such "if it would be possible would deceive the very elect", how can this be so powerful if the "elect" have already established that signs and wonders are a thing of the past?

3 - In the Bible, the pattern of the devil (the anti Christ boss) is always to "counterfeit" something very similar to what God did, but also very CURRENT AND ACTUAL. I can prove this with many and many scriptures. (Obviously, he can only get to 666 since 7 is GOD ALONE).

Why then, would the devil use

a - something totally out of his pattern of deception,

b - i.e, use something ineffective seeing that the object of his deception ALREADY KNOW THAT SIGNS AND WONDERS ARE NOT FOR TODAY, THUS, IF EXISTENT, THEY MUST BE FROM THE devil? to attempt to deceive "many" as the Bible says? (and we know he's not so creative...)

Basically, I am looking for the answer NOT so much as to WHO WILL BE DECEIVED, but why GOD IN HIS SOVEREIGN WILL would PLAN that the devil would use something so out-of-date, and ineffective as a tool of deception.
Why would God in His Sovereign will PLAN for the devil to use something that ended thousands of years ago when the Cannon was complete?

AGAIN, BEFORE THE LORD, THERE IS NO CONFRONTATIONAL TONE HERE. I actually have my own OPINION, but I NEED AS MANY OPINIONS I CAN POSSIBLY GET. I will not wirte a rebuttal since this is a REQUEST FOR HELP!

Thanks to anyone who wants to cooperate.

Grace Ambassador

Grace Ambassador
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well all I'm going to say is that God is fully able to do what God wants to do. I personally believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are relevant today. And I hate the divisions that this type of disagreeing has caused. I've had a Pentecostal tell me that Baptists and Lutherans aren't real Christians because they don't believe in all the gifts, and I've had Baptists tell me how sorely the Pentecostals/Charasmatics are deceived. Bahhumbug to it all. My truest baptism was in a Charasmatic church. But ofcourse Adventists fear that too, so when I came back to the church (this was 7 years ago on a short exodus I made), I was told that such a baptism would not be accepted, and therefore was rebaptized. Boy do I regret that but by gones are gone.

Fortunately there are balanced churches out there as well. To let it divide the body of Christ is sin... period.
Joni
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all! May I comment on this subject? I don't want to drag it on... but it is one that is dear to my heart.

I have studied the gifts, and manifestions of 1 Cor.12,13,14, Romans 12:1-13, Ephesians 4:1-17, 1 Peter 4:10 and Acts Since 1991. It is now 2001. I have almost every book on the subject and have looked at all sides.

Precepts has a study on "Spiritual Gifts". She is very Baptist and she definetly believes that all the gifts and manifestations are for today until The perfect comes, Jesus.

The difference is in the intrepretation of what a few of the gifts mean. I do not need to go into which gifts I am talking about because they are the ones that always bring controversy as you know.

If you read each of the above verses you will see that love is the key to all of the gifts.

The SG are for the upbuilding and edification of the body of Christ. So that we all attain to unity of faith, the knowledge of Jesus, the Son of God, to become mature. As a result of this we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in decdetful scheming, etc. This is found in Eph. 4:8-15

Mark 16:15-18 says "And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; But he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed; in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpants,and if they drink any deakly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover". I believe that this is for us to do also. Only as God leads. Not on your own in your own imagination.

Luke 24:49 "And behold I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

Jesus said in Luke 10:20 to rejoice not in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but that your names are recorded in heaven"

In Acts 1 & 2 the promise came. They were clothed from power on high. (The gift of the holy spirit.)

When we are born again we are sealed with the Spirit. it is the deposit (seal) until Christ comes. Eph.1:13,14. We have this same power today. The same power that raised Christ from the dead. Phil. 3:10 Eph. 1: 19,20. We have the deposit of the holy spirit in us, of which also is the gift of the holy spirit. Eph. 4:8

The holy spirit in us is what gives us the power, strength and whatever we need to walk by the spirit, to do great things for God, to share our faith, to love, to walk in obedience to God. This is not about salvation. Some do not utilize the gifts because they are ignorant of them.

To say the gifts are not in effect today would leave us adrift and tossed to and fro with out the armor we need.

Every one of you have the holy spirit and gifts and manifestions if you are born again...If you have confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that He rose from the dead. When you believed you were sealed in Him. See above.

"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood". Not against each other, not physical. It is "against the rulers, against the powers, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" Eph.6:12 This means it is a spiritual war.

How can we fight a spiritual war without the Spirit within us? We need to be on the offense with the aide of the holy spirit and the gifts that are placed within each of us, we can not fight physically.

We are born of the seed of Christ.

God does not want us to be ignorant of SG. Paul had to set the the Corinthians straight. But he didn't say to forget about the gifts. He taught them how to use them properly.

It took me 10 years to finish my study on SG. I have come to the conclusion that yes, they are in effect for today, all of them. God does not leave us helpless here on earth. He gave us SG for our war against the evil one.

Yes there are counterfit gifts. But we don't need to throw the more showy gifts out because of this.

The treasures of the Word of God are hidden for a reason. If we keep asking and keep seeking, we shall find. Jesus spoke in parables to weed out those who were not truly His.

Until Jesus comes we will war against the evil one and his evil. Every one who is born again is in this warfare. You can be on the defense or the offense. But please don't fight people. Always remember it is a spiritual war.

"1Cor. 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,...: See also Ephesians 6
I guess I have said enough. I pray that we all grow into mature christians, and unite in spirit, and work together to bring others to Jesus and His wonderous love for us.
Joni
Graceambassador
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2:
I laughed so hard at what you said (pasted below) because I get it from both sides:

I've had a Pentecostal tell me that Baptists and Lutherans aren't real Christians because they don't believe in all the gifts, and I've had Baptists tell me how sorely the Pentecostals/Charasmatics are deceived

My Pentecostal "friends" tell me that I'm backslidden because I believe in the things I believe, specially the Preservation of the Saints. The Baptists, Calvinists, Presbiterians Icecreamerians, The Church of the Frigidaire, and even the Vegetarians call me "deceived" for defending the what I defended in this thread...

Funny that we discussed and established here that the Church is mature and it is not a baby anymore, which is true, but with these kinds of accusations from one "church" to another, that you very apporpriately called by its name, i.e, SIN... there may be a mature Church, but I surely have not found one yet! And if I do find one and join it, it will not be MATURE anymore because I'll be part of it. THANK GOD FOR HIS GRACE!

Thanks!

Grace Ambassador
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Sherry; when discussions of spiritual gifts divide the body of Christ, that is sin. How antithetical to the unity of the Spirit--spiritual gifts dividing the body of Christ!

I don't think we have to explain why some gifts are or aren't showing up today. I believe that when God has need of certain gifts in certain situations, he makes sure someone is there to practice it. The problem is that we humans tend to think we're in charge of the gifts we have. Somehow WE get to decide if and when and how to practice a gift. It's all up to God.

I heard a zealous Christian say once not long ago, "If I can't have all this [spiritual gifts and power] then I don't even want God."

How truly sad. The power and the gifts became more important than Jesus himself. He is everything. He must be central. He must be enough. He will provide everything we need for us to do his will. Ultimately, the point of our lives is for Christ to glorify himself through us.

Praise God for his love and grace and sovereignty!

Colleen
Darrell
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Grace Ambassador,

This vegetarian isn't going to call you deceived! (Note the lower case "v", it is not my religion.) Thanks for the laugh!
Sherry2
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, thanks so much for what you shared. I appreciate it greatly. Wow! You've spent a ton of time studying the subject too. Glad you got a laugh GA. Thanks Colleen.

I think that we (and it definitely includes me) in our fleshly nature can really get a bent for proving "we" are right, while dividing the body of Christ. I think there's only one thing we should be bent on, and that is sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so our lost friends don't spend eternity in hell, and can have a fulfilling life here and now and for eternity with their personal Lord and Best Friend.

Thanks.
Graceambassador
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

testing, 1,2,3 - testing,1,2,3...

Well, I hope is nothing I said...

I hope it is only the "Silence of the

Sheep"...

I'm Looking forward to great exchanges of ideas with you all!

Darrell: I knew someone who is married to a Brazilian that would be joyful enough to laugh as you did!
And "yes" I know that you are not a "vegetarian" by religion, and this is good. But you just don't know what you're missing by not eating a Brazilian churrasco, with raw salt, that's it, all the juices preserved by the salt... You can even cut it with your fork... The meat still mooing...dripping. Did I say juicy?...
I am starting the "church of the churrasco" and inviting all to join me!
I am sure you know what churrasco is...

Thanks for laughing!

Grace Ambassador
Lydell
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, GA, I agree with much of what you have said. I'm agreeing with your statements on having balance. If satan has a counterfeit of something, then you can bet that the real thing is worth knowing about.

Colleen, you said, "I believe that when God has need of certain gifts in certain situations, he makes sure someone is there to practice it. The problem is that we humans tend to think we're in charge of the gifts we have. Somehow WE get to decide if and when and how to practice a gift. It's all up to God."
I would agree with your comment that the handing out of gifts is up to the Lord (but I believe that any of us at some time can expect to have any of the gifts operate thru us for ministry.)

Our will IS involved however, just as it is with so much of Christian life. The Lord can only use the one who is willing to be used. So, to that extent we are in charge of the if. There are times I think where the Lord will use you without your knowledge to minister to someone (as in suddenly speaking something that turns out to be just THE right thing that the person needed to hear, for instance)however, there are other things like laying hands on someone to pray for their healing does take a matter of your willingness to cooperate with what He wants to do with you. Otherwise, as you have pointed out, He will have to stir up that gifting in someone else who IS willing to be used.
Graceambassador
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell:
Well said:
If satan has a counterfeit of something, then you can bet that the real thing is worth knowing about.

A long time ago, still in Bible school I learned an interesting concept:

"Have you ever seen a brown supermarket paper bag being conterfeited? Have you ever seen the FBI going after anyone who counterfeits a brown supermarket paper bag?" The answer is obvious to me: NO!

What if we ask then, the following question:

"Have you ever seen a one hundred dollar bill being counterfeited? Have you ever seen the FBI going after anyone who counterfeits a one hundred dollar bill? The answer is obvious to me: Yes!

The "counterfeiter" will always look for something to counterfeit that HAS INHERENT VALUE!
Probably that is why there are "counterfeit christians" around... The devil sees a value on being what we are in Christ! Praise His name!

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HELP!!!
Today we went to church, something my husband has started doing with me since coming out of rehab. I'm not sure how much he believes in it yet (he may not either)but I think he is trying to give God a chance. (He has also talked to the local sda pastor since coming out of rehab and said he would start going back to church there too, but hasn't yet)
Anyways, today the sermon was on "how to manage your busyness" the main focus being what you are busy doing is not as important as strengthening your relationship with God. The first point on the notes handily included in the bulletin along with the scripture written out, was to set aside a day of rest!! with exodus 20 being the main text!! (the second of the two points was having daily devotions)
This is a fairly young church, an Evangelical Free Church (alert dennis)and they are in the process of building their first sanctuary. The pastor is an honest down-to-earth Godly person with a really cool Scottish accent. His sermons make you WANT to be a better Christian. He called the Ten Commandments the ten priorities of God for Christians. To his credit, he differentiated between his interpretation of the Sabbath and the "high and holy Sabbath" he had grown up with.
I don't know what I should do. He further said a Christian can have his Sabbath day on whichever day he chooses, which to me is an obvious logical flaw, since he is referring to Ex. 20.
I kept telling myself during the sermon that 1. God brought David to church today for a reason 2. His Word would not return void, but I don't know what to do next. I brought up the subject casually after the service, and David said he wondered what the pastor was going to say about that, and then he changed the subject.
So what is my next step. I'm of half a mind to call the pastor and give him the scoop on the Covenants Clay Peck style. Also I don't know if I should try to talk to David about the issue again. He doesn't even pretend to keep the Sabbath, but somehow feels in the back of his mind that it is still binding. I have brought the subject of the Sabbath up once since he came back from rehab not counting today, and he said he was focusing on more important things right now (like not drinking)
I'm afraid this sermon will somehow validate all the confused thoughts in his head and he will somehow see it as a message from God to start attending the SDA church again. Thoughts anyone?
--Hannah
Loneviking
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah,
I find it interesting that the attitude and mindset of Christians who were raised outside of SDA'ism is so very different. Sometimes it's very hard to get across to them the problems that we (as formers) are experiencing.

Our church is studying Romans, and the law in Romans. The pastors position is that there are several versions of Gods law. There was a written one given on Sinai that was done away with in favor of one that is given by the example and commands found in the New Testament. That raised alarm bells for me, as in studying my way out of SDA'ism I had come to the conclusion that the 'Law' was temporary. I even pointed out to this pastor the text that says so and how Christ brought an end to the law. It seemed to take him forever to get a glimmer of understanding as to what my problem was!

Anyway, I just now finally received all of the back copy of this study on Romans and I'm going through it trying to get a grasp on this whole issue of 'Law'. I do know that nowhere are New Testament christians under the New Covenant commanded to worship on the Seventh Day. I do know that Hebrews 4 says explicitly that when we refrain from our own works we have entered into Gods' rest. I guess this is the best thing to stick with. If there is a Christian bookstore near you check for the Bible study on Hebrews by Max Lucado or Chuck Swindoll.

Also, share this text with him:
Exodus 31:16,17
'Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the sabath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever'.

So, what I get from this text is that unless you are a Jew, the Sabbath is not a covenant sign. What do you think?

Bill
Graceambassador
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ECHO! BILL
(this means in Italian, I echo what you said...)

Also, Hannah, once you've quoted the Scripture suggested by Bill, you can tell your husband, Hebrews 8: with special attention to verse 6:
(key words in Hebrews)We have a BETTER COVENANT ESTABLISHED UPON BETTER PROMISES!

Grace Ambassador

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