| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 |
I'm sure it has happend to many of you before and it happened to me today. I'm not exactly sure how to respond and am looking for advice. As many know, I am a leader in a local SDA Church, but have difficulties with many of the doctrines of the church. Today I was asked to conduct Bible studies with a "backslidden" Adventist. I (as well as most of you) know that this means I am to re-indoctrinate him to SDA beliefs abd prepare him for rebaptism. I would love to study with him, but cannot in good conscience teach from a SDA perspective. Should I go ahead and study with him--teaching him the wonderful gospel of Grace, or should I decline the offer? The individual came to church with his mother (an active SDA), who was visiting from out of town. His mother asked one of the sisters in the church to take care of him, and she in turn asked me. What would you do? If I study with him, it is sure to cause conflict within the church--the fact that I am sharing "heresies" with this young man. If I decline, he may never have the opportunity to hear the gospel of grace. The sister who asked me knows that I have some "strange" ideas--we even joked about it. She just doesn't know to what extent. Thanks. Doug | ||
| Madelle |
Ah, Doug, a dilemma worthy of the name! To be or not to be. Several questions, I guess. Is this a several week study? If it's several months, then the dilemma is more severe. Can you study with him and concentrate on the gospel? You know how you study with people. Can you give weeks of study without getting into SDA doctrine? Who is going to ask why you have not covered SDA doctrine? The man? Maybe not. He may not even know the plans his mother has for him. He may not WANT to study with anyone. Will the mother ask what you're covering? Or will she assume that you're doing what you're supposed to do? And if you are questioned about what you're studying, can you with a straight face answer, "Well, most Adventists have been pretty well taught the Adventist beliefs. I wanted to rekindle the "first love" experience." This PR answer assumes he had a first love experience, which is doubtful, all things considered. But it would probably keep your questioners quiet. Now the real rub is if he asks you specific questions about some of the unique doctrines Adventists have. How to answer is a problem. Course, not all questions require answers. If you keep showing him Christ, and the Spirit is with you, couldn't he come to his own conclusions? Without you ever addressing those things? If you can also give him the love and patience so he can sit there in church with his mother and quietly keep from disturbing her by telling her the truth he know believes. . . . then everyone is happy. If he is a young man under 30 he may not have that level of maturity and wisdom. He may still want to rebel. If he has a difficult relationship with his mother, he may want to use his new beliefs to hurt her. You will have to evaluate this man's personality, maturity, and character for yourself to see how much you think he can handle with grace and decorum. Course, on the other hand, this may be the pivotal point in your own life. Who knows. Can you turn down a honest request to study? Assuming, of course, that the man really wants to study. I'm afraid I have more questions than answers. But isn't that the way life usually is. | ||
| Doug222 |
Madelle, Just to answer your some of your questions. I spoke with the man after church briefly and we hit it off pretty well. He is my age (40'ish) and has a son who just graduated from high school. He is apparently aware of his mom's plans and said he looked forward to me calling him to study. In my opinion, he is not the problem--and neither is his mother. His mother is returning home very soon. I suspect that as a former Adventist, he would probably be receptive to a Grace approach to the Gospel. I am more concerned about the church. I cannot point him to the "remant church." So, even if he does reach the point where he would like to rededicate his life, he cannot do that under the Adventist system unless he is willing to accept the 27 fundamental beliefs. As a leader in the church, I think I would be viewed as disoyal if I teach "another gospel" than the "Three Angels Message." My question is whether I should acknowledge that up front (to the person who asked me to study, or to the Pastor) or should I teach him about Grace and the New Covenant unbeknownst to the church leadership? Thanks for your quick response. Hopefully this clarifies the situation. I am supposed to contact him this week so any feedback is much appreciated. Doug | ||
| Lori |
Doug, I think that you are asking the question "Would I be causing dissension if I study with this man in the manner that I would be comfortable with (teaching the gospel and exposing the heresies of Adventism as they become an issue for him in our study)?" Ultimately, you will have to rely on the Holy Spirit for you answer. I would just briefly tell the man what you believe and why. Then let him decide if he would like to study with you. Does he want to be an Adventist again? Is he wanting to study to re-commit to that lifestyle? Then you are not the study partner he needs. Or, has he questioned the beliefs in the past and wants to find answers to his questions? Does he desire to find the seemingly "elusive relationship with Christ"? Then you would be ideal! What do you feel God is telling you to do? He will let you know. I will pray for you that you will have His wisdom in this matter. Lori | ||
| Madelle |
Lori has a point. Maybe a preliminary step is to find out what the man expects, what he wants, where he is. You could ask him to talk about his experience. That might give you a better idea. Decisions are frequently easier when we have more information. You know, in a way you are assuming that when you study with someone the results are a foregone conclusion--that YOU will lead him into a decision about which church to attend, that you are in control. I know that's the way Adventists usually study with people, but it doesn't have to be that way. I know some Christians who study together, sharing equally in contributions--with no one person having all the answers. Is it possible to study in this manner with this man, referring questions back to him? If you're not "leading the witness" then how are you responsible for the decisions he makes? And if he actually sees these things for himself, he might understand the need for discretion. If he doesn't join the church where is the possibility for dissention? He will be the one who got away. In a way you're wondering if you really want to lead some unsuspecting person down the painful road you've been down. That's a good question. Course he may already be half way there. As for the question of loyalty, commitment to the church, that's probably a question only you can answer. In a way it's a very difficult question between the theoretical and the practical reality. Theoretically your commitment is to the gospel--nothing else matters. In day to day reality, you live in a community, worship with people to whom you've made certain unspoken commitments. Dissention is not always bad, but it can get out of hand quickly. Course I'm reminded of Esther. She knew what she was doing was right and so she did it. The consequences were up to God. They're his commands (in this case to spread the gospel). The consequences are his. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm reluctant to give advice in a situation like this. I'm trying to raise some issues/questions that will help you think this through. Although instead of calling him, why don't you arrange to meet him at some quiet restaurant, have a snack and just visit with him. Find out more about him. Madelle | ||
| Doug222 |
Lori and Madelle, Thank you for your input. Both of you made excellent points that I had not really considered. Lori, the idea of asking him for his input never crossed my mind. If you notice from my previous post, I was prepared to talk to the Pastor o to the person who asked me to do the study, but never thought to talk to him. I guess this is where you see how much adventist evangelism methodology affects you--even when you detest the way it is done. Thanks for pointing it out to me. Madelle, you also provided excellent input in your assessment of my end expectations. Unconciously I guess I had fell into the trap of feeling the need to "teach" this guy something and to lead him to a particular conclusion. Once again, the basis for adventist evangelism. Thank you both for helping me to see the situation more clearly. I think I will incorporate both of your suggestions. Hmmm, no pressure evangelism. What a novel idea. <smile> Thanks again. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Madelle |
Doug, Good luck! Let us know a little about how this turns out. | ||
| Mrkarl |
Doug, as a current Seventh-day Adventist, TEACH THE MAN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. | ||
| Doug222 |
Well, here is the update. I contacted the guy as we had planned, and I got the polite brush off. Just to provide a little additional clarification. The conversation between this man and the lady who asked me to study with him took place during the fellowship time--before the sermon. She introduced me to him after church. Well, it just so happened that the sermon that day happened to be a chastisement of the church for not keeping the Sabbath better (Isiah 58), including a statement to the effect that "a walk along the beach on the Sabbath could be okay, but you have to ask yourself the question 'who is getting more enjoyment out of this, me or God.' If the answer is you, then it is probably something you shouldn't be doing." Of course this is the same person who said (in the same sermon) that its okay to have sex on the Sabbath. Go figure! Anyway, needless to say, when I followed up with the guy, he gave me the brush off and essentially said, "don't call me, I'll call you." Do you blame him? I'd run too. Doug | ||
| Lori |
Doug, I was just curious--does the man realize that you do not represent the traditional views of the SDA? Did you tell him that you do not accept the "legalist" views, either? If not, his brush off may be only because of what "he thinks" you believe! Did you tell him what you believe? Lori | ||
| Mrkarl |
Doug, don't let this man brush you off untill he knows the gospel. I am a current SDA, and have had conversations with my conference president, and other top leaders of the conference. They know where I stand on the gospel. I have a whole presentation (about an hour and a half) on the gospel. It is basicly the same one put together by Kennedy out of Florida in the early 70's. Lori gave some good words on why this guy may have brushed you off. Jesus is coming to save people, not denominations. Karl | ||
| Doug222 |
Karl, You said you have shared your presentation with the conference president and other top leaders. What was their response? Thanks to both you and Lori for your advice. I'll try to make contact again. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker |
Doug, I'll pray about your contact with that man. As a matter of fact, you might consider praying that God would clearly show you if you should contact him again, and if so, to show you when and how. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't contact him. I'm only saying that sometimes people are ready to hear, and sometimes they're defenseive and argumentative. God knows when each person is open and reachable. He has an amazing way of sending people into each other's lives at precisely the moment his words need to be spoken and his love needs to be demonstrated. I have definitely experienced God showing me when and how to speak to people when I've prayed for his guidance to know how and when. I've also experienced never clearly receiving the "Go ahead" about sharing. Something I'm finding that I do more and more as I interact with people in varying stages of spiritual growth and sometims feel unsure what role I should play or what I should say, I ask God to glorify himself through our relationship and ask Him to hold the relationship in his hand and put his Spirit in it. I ask God to reveal himself through our interaction and to help whatever needs to be said, to be said, and to direct the nature of our conversations and the shape of our continuing (if there should be any) interaction. You know, Doug, sometimes God asks us to speak for him, and we find he teaches us and empowers us to stand for him in new ways because of what he's doing through us. I do pray for you and yours! Karl, I'm interested, too, to know how the conference officials have responded to your presentation. I agree that Jesus is coming to save people, not denominations! I totally agree that the gospel is IT--Jesus is the center, the beginning, the end--everything. I also know that I've heard people proclaim the gospel and grace and Christ in ringing, repeated words, yet their whole attitude and loyalty and even their words said, the denomination isn't to be blamed. The denomination cannot be blamed for indiscretions people have committed. (This is very fresh in my mind because I just had conversation with such a person very recently.) Upon closer questioning and careful listening, it becomes clear that the grace and the gospel and the Jesus these people proclaim is still not the Jesus and the gospel of the Bible. Unless a person is truly willing to KNOW what is true instead of defending what he or she BELIEVES to be true, he or she cannot truly proclaim the gospel. But God knows our needs and our hearts, and he teaches us unfailingly when we want to know him. Isn't it great that God doesn't micro-manage us when we proclaim him? He actually allows people sometimes to misrepresent him--he has allowed me to misrepresent him--but he teaches us and even redeems our ill-guided attempts to speak the truth when we're still learning it ourselves! Praise God for loving us and claiming us! Colleen | ||
| Mrkarl |
Colleen, I get Dale's newsletter, and have "tinker"ed around in various places and sites. I know your name and I hope that you won't fall over when I tell you this. But there are many people in the SDA church who bleive the Real Gospel of Grace of Jesus Christ. In fact, this Sabbath I'll be preaching a little sermon I've called, "Working the Works of God", I've renamed it for tommorrow, "The Gospel on the Way". I'll preach basicly on Rom 1:17 (from Hab 2:4). "The just shall live by his faith". The other sermon was approached from John 6:28,29 where Christ tells the jews that the work of God is to believe on him who sent him. The word "believe" is the same word for faith, and then we go to Hab 2:4 and Rom 1:17 (and Pauls other two places in Gal and Heb where he quotes Habakkuk). The President and the Ministerial director are both gospel preachers. Just this past thursday the Ministerial director and I were talking about the gospel and it's power to change lives even for those who may never hear the name of Jesus. We've had some good talks about it, and works are never the case. Not even good Sabbath Keeping...or bad Sabbath keeping as the case may be. We know our best efforts at Sabbathing fall far short, therefore, we are not Sabbath keepers. Rather, we look at it as being kept by the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a call to relationship. We are not saved anymore by keeping the Sabbath then we are by not murdering anyone. Even my pastor is gospel centered. Before any Net series he makes sure that those involved are trained in "The Gospel Presentation". This presentation was basicly outlined by Kennedy of Coral Ridge in Florida. He figures that if you cannot lead someone to Christ, then you are no good to the church as a worker. If you know and can share the gospel, then you're safe. We've had people in the church get re-baptized after going through the gospel prensentation. It's not all legalism and "Pope" Ellen in the SDA Church. Don't get me wrong. I believe Ellen was used of God. I believe she was a "prophet". I just don't use her for proof texts in converstaion, teaching or preaching. There are a lot more gospel centered Christians in the SDA church then you might quess. If it ever comes to a choice between the gospel or membership in the SDA denomination, then I guess I'll be out of church office. As I've said before, when Jesus comes again, he's coming to save people, not denominations. Karl | ||
| Mrkarl |
Colleen wrote: "I also know that I've heard people proclaim the gospel and grace and Christ in ringing, repeated words, yet their whole attitude and loyalty and even their words said, the denomination isn't to be blamed. The denomination cannot be blamed for indiscretions people have committed. (This is very fresh in my mind because I just had conversation with such a person very recently.)" Colleen, Isn't it great to know that no church organization has the corner on salvation? I may be a Seventh-day Adventist in the Temperal sense, but I'm a member of the body of Christ which includes the host of heaven as well as those here on earth regardless of what "church" they belong to. This greater church is the Church of God. A name picked up by the Church of God (seventh day) and their offspring. Even though they don't like organizations, they nonetheless have take thier eyes off the master to focus on temperial stuff. As far as the SDA org. not taking blame for anything, this has been the case for 140 years. Weiland and Short wants the GC to lead out in corporate repentance for the rejection of the gospel in 1888. The GC can't admit they did anything wrong today, let alone a 100 years ago. Seems we make things harder then they have to be. God Speed Karl | ||
| Draper |
Karl, One sentence in your letter jumped out at me. You wrote, "The Sabbath is a call to relationship." This sentence when taken by the mind set of the little Adventist lady I know (and all of her friends and family that I have met thus far) means "a day", "the 7th day", "a 24 hour period". So, "A day" is a call to relationship. The "7th day" is a call to relationship. A "24 hour period of time" is a call to relationship. In my own life the call to a relationship is none other than Jesus Christ. He's the eternal Sabbath rest and he is what calls each one of us to a relationship. In my recent contact with the Adventist doctrines I have come to realize that they have no knowledge of the mystery doctrines that Paul speaks about. Correct me if I am wrong but the Adventist that I have come to know reject anything that falls outside of the framework of OT laws. When in reality we don't live in that dispensation and we must interpret the OT inside the contraints of the mystery doctrine that Paul reveals in the NT. I have come to understand that in order to talk with these people that you MUST know what their definition of certain words are. To me, Sabbath rest is Jesus Christ himself. To Sabbath rest means sitting back on my haunches in His great big palms (7 days a week, moment by moment) that are cushioned with Grace bigger than all my needs, wants and desires. WOW!! Can you imagine the integrity of God???? He created the most wonderful creations, the most wonderful beings, all in perfection. Then some arrogant nobody came and messed up his beautiful creation and tainted everything that would ever come to live in it. Instead of just throwing his beautiful world in the trash and destroying all the innocent beings that were in it. He came and lived in the nasty remains of what had been ruined and showed us the way that we could live in a perfect world of His again. He decided out of great love to restore His creation in all its beauty and grandeur and to grant special priviledges and blessings to those who would chose to reject the lies of the one who ruined it all and take the hand of the Creator and allow Him to restore them to perfection along with the world. It would have been a lot easier to have thrown the whole kit and caboodle in the incinerator and start over. But LOVE restores, it does not discard. To my little lady SDA, the Sabbath means Saturday from sundown to sundown and thats all. What I'm asking Karl is what is your definition of the word Sabbath in that sentence? Does it mean the day or does it mean the person? Thank you much, Draper Matthews | ||
| Mrkarl |
Draper Matthews wrote: "What I'm asking Karl is what is your definition of the word Sabbath in that sentence? Does it mean the day or does it mean the person?" Draper, You seemed to have answered that question yourself. Don't make my words say more then what they mean, or enlarge them to mean more then they say. Our relationship with the master is 24/7. Every day I am amazed that I am here, in His care. What I shadow I am of my former self, I hardley relate to my past. It's as if it's about someone else. He is my all, my power, my joy and my peace! The one day each week is only a 24 hour time period in my sphere of existence, but it is a time that I am called to leave the world behind, to lay down the tools of my trade. Not to worry about providing because He says that He will provide. It is a time for my to set aside the busyness of my life and take up the more important things of my being. It is not a time of inactivity, but a time of "not me" activity. A call and weekly reminder of my relationship with the master of the universe, who created the world without my help or counsel yet bids me to join him in His rest as if I had anything to do with it. The Sabbath reminds us always of the creator of the universe, the all powerful all knowing, all loving Father. It points back in time before sin poluted this world, it now promises us rest in the new where sin is forever exspounged from the universe and will not rise up a second time. Draper, don't let the Sabbath do more then it's intended, nor rob you of that special invitation from Jesus. Karl | ||
| Bmorgan |
Hey Karl, Your explanation about some SDAs preaching and understanding the gospel is pretty interesting. I have been a faithful member for pass twenty five years and did hear and read about the gospel as you described. I read Weiland's and Morris Venden's materials, as they tried to explain righteousness by faith. I never considered my self legalistic. I was open-minded enough to read "Sunday Christians'" literature, however, it was until I left Adventism mentally that my mind could grasp the message of the gospel of Grace as it is in Christ Jesus. I believe some like yourself may try to preach a message, but who hears it when people's ears and eyes or covered. It is hard for members to comprehend just what's the gospel message is. They are the same scripture text, and church words yet they interpret it quite different. Besides, it makes no sense to hear sweet sounding scripture words, yet there is no evidence of the life changing reality of Jesus in the lives of church members. People live in fear of death and losing their salvation. I find that no matter how one looks at the SDA church, even if they believe the gospel is preached in one or two congregations, the concept of grace is hard to grasp for they are still in bondage. Few members may understand it intellectually -if they do at all-but will never be able to experience the freedom which the gospel promises.. I realize that I am painting with a broad brush, however, there is not other way to state my observation milder. Can one be a Protestant and Catholic at the same time? The further away I move from Adventism, the darker it looks. I have observed that in order for the vast membership of the church to function, they operate with cognitive dissonance, something common among cults. One has to go directly against adventism to preach the gospel as it is in Christ. Why would one choose to live constant tension with the church hierarchy or others of the members, who really understand the REAL message they think SDA (Remnant Church)has and are called to preach? I thank God for the constant dryness, the mental confusion and the tension I felt all those years. Yes, He used them to pull me to himself. Blessings BMorgan. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Wow is it great to hear from you, BMorgan!!! I haven't seen you post in a while! Hope all has been well. I find it interesting to see "preaching of the true gospel" in Adventism. I know it doesn't exist where I live. It is tainted gospel, water trying to mix with oil. The very fact that people are baptized only after agreeing to a list of things is not baptism into Christ at all! I was so amazed when I started attending a Baptist church, and they baptized people who wanted to accept Jesus Christ and believe on His name. Nothing else. If they wanted to be a member of that church, then later they could go through membership classes if they desired. When I shared with them my baptism into Adventism (which is exactly what it was -baptism into a denomination), they couldn't believe their ears. They had never heard of such a thing. What the church does is perverse. It is spiritual adultry. That may sound harsh, but the Bible makes it clear on how one comes to Christ. To consider EGW a true prophet after just taking the Word for itself is impossible. The very tests of a prophet given in Scripture disqualify her. I know I've said this before and I will say it again, when I saw manifestations in a charasmatic church that they said was the Holy Spirit, and I wasn't sure, or had prophets speak, I did a very intensive study on the tests of prophets. Study the Word, it is there. I never knew God would take those same texts and bring them to my remembrance when I grappled with wrong things in Ellen White's writings (like Jesus being in the Holy place and moving to the Most Holy Place , and wearing Aaronic garments when Jesus is never considered part of the Aaronic priesthood but the priesthood of Melchizedech(sp)). My mind wanted to justify her with all the SDA sayings I had heard, but I had to come to a decision. Either the Bible said what it said and was correct, or the Bible really was abit faulty and I needed her to fill in the blanks. Well folks, you know what I decided. The Word of God was truthful, and she had to go. The tests of the prophets spoke against her. The simple honest reading of the Word of God spoke against her. Someone once said "Give me liberty or give me death".....I say "Give me Jesus and nothing else, or give me death". The SDA message perverts the Gospel, and tries to add unto it. Are there honest seeking Christians in Adventism? Yes. I know I was one. My insatiable hunger to know Him more and more led me to this place. I pray for those who are trying to be a Jew to reach a Jew so to speak, God bless them. To those who know they can no longer remain, may God give them boldness to go wherever He leads them. To those who are so hurt by the pains of religious abuse, boy does Jesus know and care for you - His words to the religious leaders of His time bear witness, He is not ok with religious abuse. He loves you. Follow Him, and not religious opinion dressed in only "righteous-looking garb." Seek God's opinions in your life, not people's. He is faithful! Grace to all. I am so thrilled with Jesus and His grace. Every day is indeed a miracle. | ||
| Lydell |
Karl, you said: "We know our best efforts at Sabbathing fall far short, therefore, we are not Sabbath keepers. Rather, we look at it as being kept by the Sabbath." Why do you see a need to be "kept by the Sabbath" when we are told in Eph. 1:13 and Eph. 4:30 that the believer in Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit? Hi Sherry. Finally! made it home! Went up to visit my mom for five days and discovered her health was such that I needed to stay and care for her for 3 weeks. She's better now, praise God. And I'm HOME at last! Lydell |
