| Author | Message | ||
| Sherry2 |
Good to hear from you Lydell. I am not sure, but when I read Karl's "kept by the Sabbath" I thought he was speaking as GA often says about he doesn't keep the Sabbath, the Sabbath keeps him...in other words resting in Jesus. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I took it. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Bmorgan, Thanks for your wonderful post! It's good to see you here! Thanks to everyone who sincerely posts and questions here. Every day I pray that God will be here, that the Holy Spirit will be the moderator of this discussion. Isn't it amazing that God is even in cyberspace? (Not that it should be surprising; everything we know is inisde his divine power!) For several years, actually, I believed in grace as an Adventist. I truly did believe that nothing I did would save me or in any way secure my salvation. Simultaneously, however, I struggled to know why there was an arbitrary 24-hour period for us. I used all the rationalizations I could think of: it was something we did to show honore to the God who saved us, it was a time to devote ourselves totally to him, it was a time for our whole family to focus on God and each other without being stressed by work, etc. I just couldn't make the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle fit, however. If nothing we did would count for securing salvation, why was there an arbitrary 24-hour period? When I finally understood that Jesus WAS the new covenant; that God keeps the new covenant with Jesus, not with us; when I finally understood that Jesus superceded the law and the prophets, when I finally saw that the Sabbath had always pointed to rest in Christ which is a 24-7 phenomenon, with nothing more special in any time period--when these things finally went home in me, the freedom I experienced was inexplicable. I wasn't looking for a way out of the Sabbath. I loved the Sabbath and couldn't imagine being without it. But the freedom andrelationship I experience now that I understand that I live in Sabbath rest, that Sabbath isn't about time, my relationship with Jesus is completely different from anything I ever experienced before. Also, none of this could have made sense to me until I released EGW. Either she was a prophet in the biblical sense and her writings stand the Biblical test of a true prophet, or she is a false prophet. There is no middle ground. What I discovered when I finally admitted EGW was a false prophet was this: my reasoning had been good. My understanding of salvation by grace had been accurate and biblical. My desire for truth had been totally real. But I had been standing on a presupposition that was untrue, and even though all my reasoning and thinking and searching had been sincere and logica;, as long as I was standing not on a bedrock of Biblical truth but a false foundation of a lie--a false prophet--all the superstructure had to tumble down. If we operate truthfully on top of a false premise, we are still promulgating and living in deception. If a person is a brillinat surgeon and saves hundreds of lives, but buried deeply is the dark secret that he never passed medical school, everything that person does is a lie. He may be doing everything well, but he's NOT a doctor, and he's deceiving his patients and he's not living in freedom. He has no assurance of being always accepted and welcomed into professional circles. He lives in constant fear of discovery. A person who understands the biblical concept of grace and preaches it but still knowingly embraces a system of deception (or refuses to acknowledge the deception) is not living in freedom. The grace they preach is still a theory, not a full reality. I know this from painful experience. Thie miracle of having the veil come off and meeting Jesus face-to-face is unlike any other experience. It is everything. Jesus alone is enough. No inspirational "inspired" writers, no required days, nothing but Jesus. I keep remembering something Dal Ratzlaff said, There are only two kinds of Adventists: dishonest and deceived. God in his grace and mercy works with every one of us to exppose our deception and to give us the courage of his love to walk away from the temptation of dishonesty. Praise God that he continues to complete--for years and years--the work he alone begins in us! Colleen | ||
| Mrkarl |
Well folks, seems like I may have stirred up a little conversation. Between Colleen and Bmorgan, I must look pretty foolish. Bmorgan doubts I have the gospel and Colleen by way of Dale says all adventists are one or the other, decieved or dishonest. I guess there isn't much I can say except let things lie where they are. Sherry2, you are correct. My Sabbath rest is in Christ. To be "kept" by the Sabbath is to be kept by and in Christ. To lay the world aside, to come out of it to spend time with Christ. Karl | ||
| Doug222 |
Colleen, I had the "pleasure" of teaching a lesson on the meaning of the Sabbath today. I was asked to teach it a few weeks ago, and took the time to look through the Sabbath School Quarterly at the three (count them) consecutive lessons on the Sabbath. I knew immediately that I could never teach that lesson. There were so many half truths, and assumptions drawn from vague scriptural allusions and statements from EGW that were quoted as fact with no scriptural support. I actually contemplated going back to the person who asked me to teach and telling them that I cold not teach the lesson in good conscience. However, at the non-denominational church I attend on Sundays, the Pastor gave a sermon last week from Acts 5 where Peter continued to preach despite opposition from the chief priests and the captain of the temple. I knew then that I could not shrink back from the opportunity to present the gosepl. I used Dale Ratzlaff's "Sabbath in Crisis" as a jumping off point and spent considerable time preparing a study on the Sabbath and Jesus as our Jubilee. My study solidified my belief that both those who hold to a rigid belief in the Sabbath as a binding requirement and those who casually toss the Sabbath aside as unimportant miss out on an incredible blessing. God gave a tremendous lesson on the sufficiency of Jesus' death by giving the Sabbath to the Children of Israel. To teach that it is still a binding requirement on all Christians is to deny the very heart of the Gospel--Jesus. It was interesting that as I gave the example of the man who was found gathering kindling on the Sabbath and was subsequently stoned, I asked the class for their opinion on why God would have been so harsh in his punishment. Almost unanimously, the class responded that God was showing how serious he was about the Sabbath and that this was to be an example for Christians of all time--including us, about the consequences for desecrating the Sabbath. I suggested the fact that in the Sabbath God had given an object lesson. Adam and Eve had nothing to do with the blissful condition (rest) of creation and the Children of Israel had nothing to do with their deliverance from Egypt. In the same way, we have nothing to do with our redemption. If we attempt to contribute one iota of work to that equation, we deny the gift of salvation and therefore are worthy of death. For the most part, I got blank stares. One of thie things I learned about Jubilee is that there were three ways that a slave could be released from his/her debt. They could pay their own restitution, they could be released at the Sabbatical year (every seven years) or they could be released in Jubilee. The slave had one other option, he could also choose to be indentured to his master. I realized that in the Jubilee that God demonstrated the same dealing with sin. We can choose to pay our own debt, we can accept the "Sabbath" liberation, or we can choose to remain under bondage. Isn't it wonderful that God provided such a wonderful object lesson. It is sad to see so many who cannot see the gold mine that God has given us in the Sabbath. Although people use the correct language, the truth of the matter is that most Adventist see it as something you have to "do" right in order to curry God's favor. In my case, I can say it is something I strived (or is it strove) for, but know in my heart of hearts that I never came close to achieving. And i certainly did not understand the freedom that I find in CHrist. It was comforting to come home and receive my first copy of Proclamation in the mail and see your article on how to read the Bible. Particularly comforting was your confirmation of my experience when you said, "...it became clear to me that what the quarterly said and what the Bible said were not always the same. The quarterly, in fact, often seemed superficial, never really examining what the Bible said about the subjects." I see now where the "truth" that I was so proud of and that the SS did such a good job of indoctrinating me to, kept me from truly experiencing the liberty that is found in Jesus and Jesus alone. I say Praise God from whom ALL blessing flow. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Douug: Your insight: Adam and Eve had nothing to do with the blissful condition (rest) of creation and the Children of Israel had nothing to do with their deliverance from Egypt. In the same way, we have nothing to do with our redemption. If we attempt to contribute one iota of work to that equation, we deny the gift of salvation and therefore are worthy of death. For the most part, I got blank stares.... ...is one of the reasons why I continue to come to this forum! I get JEALOUS here sometimes because, at least former SDA's received an understanding about GRACE. On my side of the theological spectrum, affirmations about GRACE are understood as licensiousness, lawlessness and abuse of liberty. Hence, ("THEY SUBTLY SAY": IT IS BETTER NOT TO HAVE ANY GRACE AT ALL SINCE IT IS SO INCONVENIENCE AND SO POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS! As I always say: "WHAT A TRAGEDY!". The stares you received were not "blank" alone: My Grace Ambassador INTERPRETATION of a familiar text: "THE BLIND WILL ALWAYS GUIDE THE BLANK!" People do not think; refuse to think; others impose their thinking on them and THAT REFLECTS IN THEIR EYES! When they see the LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL coming against them, they are caught as a deer by the headlights! Praying that the "fat cats" of GRACE (denominations that claim to be Grace oriented), have some, one of these days, I congratulate you for your insight, that has been pasted to my "hall of fame" with proper credit to you. As Spurgeon once said: Our flesh screams DO, DO, DO. BUT FROM CALVARY WE HEAR THE ETERNAL CRY: IT IS DONE, IT IS DONE, IT IS DONE! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Draper |
Here's a question for you all: Why are the accounts of the 4th commandment slightly different in Exodus and Deuteronomy, why does the first account tell to remember God made heaven and earth in six days,etc.............and why does the second account tell them to remember you were slaves in Israel. Both say that these were the words that God spoke to them there on the mountain and they were written in stone. Anyone know? | ||
| Mrkarl |
You know, I was just thinking about Draper's post on the difference of the Sabbath account in Ex. and Deut. If we were talking about an Ellen White reference with those different approaches, we would be getting back letters of "false prophet", ect. Kind of makes you think of what a level playing field really looks like. Karl | ||
| Doug222 |
Draper, There ie a cliche that I once heard that I really like. It says, "A text without context is a pretext for a prooftext." I think the "alleged" difference you are talking about is just that--a prooftext. Actually, both texts are a reminder to Israel of their deliverance from Egypt. Look at Exodus 20:1,2. It says, "And God spake ALL these words (the ten commandments), saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Now, let's look at the text in Deuteronomy 5:6. "I am the Lord thy God which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Both texts have a similar foundation--the deliverance from Egypt. God gave the law (the entire law) to the Children of Israel at Sinai. It (including the Sabbath) was to be a reminder of the deliverance they had just experienced and to point them to the coming Messiah who would introduce a similar liberating ministry. Some would have us believe that the Sabbath was about honoring the fact that God created us; however God is not a narcissist. He doesn't need us to remind him that he did a great job at creation--he knows that. Instead, his loving nature is such that he gave Israel the Sabbath as a token (a downpayment or promise if you will) of the great thing he was going to do for and in them. You could look at the Sabbath command in Exodus and say that it was a memorial to creation, but a closer examination of the text may reveal otherwise. Verse 13 says "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." So why did he bless and hallow the Sabbath? Was it because he created the earth? NO! The reason he blessed and hallowed it was because he RESTED. In resting, he ceased from all his work, in the same way that he exhorts us to cease from our own works [at salvation] (Hebrews 4:10) Even before sin entered the picture, God had already made provisions for our salvation and redemption. He really thinks of everything doesn't he? In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doug222 |
Draper, I looked back at your question and Karl's response and see that I may not have answered your questions specifically in my previous response. It seems to me that the mention of creation in Exodus was give as a point of reference to God's rest (in the same way that the writer makes mention of the Sabbath in Hebrews, but is in fact not talking about the Sabbath at all, but about entering into a spiritual rest). However, the focal point of the command was the fact that God created, but that he rested from his work (which is the meaning of the word Sabbath--to cease or to rest). As far as both commandments being written in stone, but having "different wording." Both Exodus and Deuteronomy were written by the same writer (Moses) at different times. These are summaries of what was shared on Mt Sinai, and (obviously) not an exact transcript. Its no different than you sharing a story with me today, then repeating it tomorrow. The words may not be the exact same, but the gist is. I do not see a contradiction between the two accounts, but do find it interesting that in nearly 40 years of Adventism, I almost (and I might be able to strike the word almost) never heard any mention of the Deuteronomy account. Do you have a possible explanation for why that might be? Doug | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Mrkarl, That was an interesting observation that Draper made on the difference of the Sabbath account in Ex. and Deut. It reminds me of the difference in the accounts of the life and death of Christ in the gospels. If you apply the different emphasis that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make to the different emphasis that Moses made, it really makes sense. Especially, when God inspired the different emphasis! REMEMBER THAT THE ENTIRE BIBLE WAS INSPIRED. Now, to even put a person that has entered into the world picture after the closing of the cannon of scripture, on the same "PLAYING FIELD" is utter blasphemy. Whether EGW was a prophet or not is not even the issue here! Putting a person and what they wrote in remotely the same playing field as the Bible is just unconscioncable. Never forget that God has His OWN playing field. He chose who wrote the scriptures. Cannon closed! Period. Maryann...IBC=Insured By Christ...Not man! | ||
| Draper |
Excellent point Maryann!!!! Whether Mrs. Ellen White contradicted herself is irrelevant when she clearly contradicted the Canon (measuring stick) of Scripture. | ||
| Lydell |
Colleen, you made an excellent point here: "A person who understands the biblical concept of grace and preaches it but still knowingly embraces a system of deception (or refuses to acknowledge the deception) is not living in freedom. The grace they preach is still a theory, not a full reality....Jesus alone is enough." I would venture to say that most of the formers who are here spent at least some time within the walls of the denomination (if not physically, then at least mentally still present there) telling themselves that they knew their salvation rested ONLY in Christ...nothing added. They were delighting in the knowledge of their salvation being assured. And so "we could also keep the sabbath", no problem, "our salvation doesn't rest in it." And yet I don't think there are many of us who didn't have to still fight with the churning, underlying, ever present, no other name for it but fear when they first began going to church on Sunday instead of "keeping the sabbath day". And what was the troubling thought that we all faced? "What if the church is right and I am going to be doomed for not keeping the sabbath?" No matter what truths the Lord would try to show us in the Word. No matter what promptings he would lay on us to examine topics in the scripture, there was always that underlying whining question, "but what about the sabbath?" Every topic, every single one of them always would come back to, "but what about the sabbath?" It was amazing wasn't it, that something that we were supposedly realizing was not important to our salvation still seemed to be so darned important to every topic we thought of? If salvation doesn't rest on it, then why is every topic somehow always tied to it? We leave the denomination. But for a long while the denomination is still there present in us in the EGW quotes that play over and over. We reach a point where no further progress in the Lord is happening because our minds won't let go of the question. It's not a feeling of conviction of truth, but rather a nagging feeling of condemnation. Not a conviction of something we need to do (when we are under conviction and ask Him why, He always answers the question), but a feeling of being somehow dirty (condemnation tells us that we are hopeless. Condemnation tries to lay on us requirements that aren't coming from the Lord.) But as you noted, Colleen, once that point is reached of truly seeing Jesus Christ as being our completed sabbath rest, sufficient for every moment of our lives, the change is overpowering. Our spirit shouts, "I AM FREE!" As you said, the feeling is inexplicable. It is peace, complete peace. It is very much like one must feel being set free from prison. A whole world opens up before us. We find were like a little kid sitting on the floor in front of one open cabinet that contained only a couple of toys. We were thinking how lucky and blessed we were to have a couple of toys we found inside. But all the while our Dad has been trying to get us to open the doors of all the cabinets around us. And the house is chock full of them from floor to ceiling stocked full of wonderful delightful things that we didn't bother to explore. You formers, does this pretty well voice what you experienced as well? | ||
| Sherry2 |
"My Sabbath rest is in Christ. To be "kept" by the Sabbath is to be kept by and in Christ. To lay the world aside, to come out of it to spend time with Christ. Karl" You wrote this, and to me in sounds like a contradiction in what you are saying, Karl. First Sabbath is in Christ, and then it means coming to spend time with Christ. Either Christ is your rest, or a date in time is your rest...which is it? I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. If Sabbath rest is in Christ(and I'm not referring to one day out of seven), then every waking moment 24/7 is in Him period. It's not about time, it's about your whole life being in Christ who is timeless. I agree to those above who mentioned the thinking of being fully in Christ as SDA while observing Sabbath the way we did as SDA's is quite contrary to truly living in His grace....it's odd to see the difference now. I can only think that the answer is because we are told that in Christ we have everything to live Godly lives, and we do know the secrets of God's heavenly kingdom, imparted by the Holy Spirit and only through this. I don't know...but the walk sure has lead me to know Jesus in such a more fulfilled way. Blessings!! :) | ||
| Mrkarl |
Sherry2, Yes, I refer to a point in time as a symbol of my timelessness with Christ. God doens't need the Sabbath, we do. There is a big difference between being caught up in the busyness of our lives and often self-centered desires and putting worldly things aside, including self-centered desires to spend time with the master. Lets face it, He is with us 24/7, but are we ALWAYS with Him? I hear what you are trying to say. I have and read Dales book "Sabbath in Crisis" about four years ago. I don't agree with his methodology. That is, he read the Bible in the order it is in, and came to conclusions "before" he continued. A more proper method, (hermenutic [spelling])is to 1) interpret scripture with scripture, and 2) The New Testament interprets the Old. By this method, he would more readily use the New to add light to the Old. But his progression would not allow that. To claim that the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Testament, while the Lord's Supper is the sign of the New is just not tenable. Karl PS: and yes, I also have "Cultic Doctrine" | ||
| Mrkarl |
Maryann wrote: "That was an interesting observation that Draper made on the difference of the Sabbath account in Ex. and Deut." Yes, Maryann, that was an interesting observation Draper made. But my point concerning a level playing field seems to have gone right past you. But never mind, I almost expected a return comment such as I recieved. I also believe that the canon is closed. Karl | ||
| Colleentinker |
Doug, what a great lesson on the Sabbath. I can imagine how amazing it must have felt to you to work through that study and to find the Bible leading you to those conclusions. I remember Elizabeth Inrig, our pastor's wife and the leader of women's ministries at Trinity church, saying once that when we have the Holy Spirit in us we recognize the same Spirit when we read the Bible because He inspired it. Yes, Lydell, those doubts and questions are exactly what Richard and I experienced. But I still can't get over how astonishing it is to actually experience the presence of Christ daily. I knew, as an Adventist, that He was always with me, but not until I risked letting Him BE my Sabbath did I experience that sense of having his peace and rest with me every day. I remember Richard saying to me soon after we risked not keeping Sabbath, "I feel closer to Christ every day than I ever did on Sabbath before." That actually summarizes my experience, too. The Sabbath was a powerful symbol, as you mentioned, Doug. And there is no question that Saturday is the Biblical Sabbath day of the old covenant. If people are going to live their lives by the law, Saturday is the day they should keep. But in Christ ALL the law is fulfilled. Everything necessary for our salvation, for our reconnection to God, has been done. Because Jesus died and rose and ascended to his Father, He can send the Holy Spirit to indwell us and to give us living spirits. We can now literally live personally in the presence of God--because He personally lives in us. We are restored to rest in Him when we accept his finished work! Praise God! We are his, and he is ours, and nothing can ever separate us! Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
We can step aside from the busyness of our lives and step into His presence in an instant. It doesn't need to happen in one set aside 24 hour period. That's the marked difference in then and now. So there is a greater realization of the reality of His presence literally being with you now. I think the rest in Him comes because the continual self-examination is gone. We are no longer forced to focus on the question of whether or not we are striving to enter rest. Are we making enough preparations (my own work)beforehand to "enter into the sabbath"? No need to worry about whether or not a particular conversation is "appropriate" for a particular day. No need to stress over, for instance, if it is doing my own pleasure or His to turn the TV on on the Sabbath to see if the hurricane has turned and is going to make landfall over my house later in the day (been there, done that one!). No need to stress over how you can get out of working on Saturday so you can enjoy your sabbath rest (while causing your co-worker to have to work in your place. And isn't it interesting to stop and consider the number of folks you caused to have to work on the sabbath day while you were resting?) You stop the continual self-examination because now the matter is settled in your mind. You are for sure enough never going to measure up by any of your own efforts. You know there is absolutely nothing more you can do to make yourself more acceptable in his presence. Nothing more you can do to prepare yourself for a time of being in His presence. We are either living in His presence or we are not. | ||
| Lydell |
Karl, haven't read the book you are speaking of, but I can tell you that the way we view sabbath keeping now does not at all begin with the Old Testament. Rather, a rejection of sabbathkeeping comes from beginning with an understanding of what was fully accomplished in Christ's sacrifice for us. And that, obviously, only begins with an understanding of the New Testament. We look at it the way the first church did. We take what was seen in Christ and look backwards to understand what was going on in the Old Testament. | ||
| Sherry2 |
To me when I read Hebrews and Galatians it was very obvious the Old Covenant was nullified. There is now a new. To people of the law, that's scary. Where do they stand now? Yet what I realized was the "sign of the Old Covenant" which is definitely sabbath-keeping cannot be kept if I truly believe the new covenant. It's like owing the debt to my grandmother for helping me consolidate my credit cards. We had a contract, and under this contract there was rules to my future use of credit cards as to not get myself into that mess again. The sign of the covenant was paying her back so much money every month on such and such a date. Once I paid up, it would've been foolishness to continue paying her - the sign of the covenant. The contract was anulled by the full payment of the debt. However the principals of the contract that were helpful in daily life 24/7 were those principles about how to handle my spending in the future. I no longer paid my monthly payment, but I still lived by the principles, because they were timeless. So Jesus paid my debt in full, and established a New and different covenant. For me to continue with the sign of the old is a blatant denial of what He has done for me. Boy is that clear! I am so amazed by His grace and His love! When I even picture myself in His very presence, I just want to fall down and worship. To serve the old while I have the new is such a lie to truth for me. Blessings. | ||
| Sherry2 |
"There is a big difference between being caught up in the busyness of our lives and often self-centered desires and putting worldly things aside, including self-centered desires to spend time with the master. Lets face it, He is with us 24/7, but are we ALWAYS with Him?" I wanted to respond to this. We as people, do not always live the 24/7, yet we can. We were crucified with Christ and our old man is dead. We live life in the Spirit right now. Every moment is ours with Him. So living in Sabbath-rest every moment of your life is a God-given gift that yes indeed we can have. To be consumed with Him and His will daily is the best way to live. In fact it is glorious! It is the peace that passes all understanding as well. What a wonderful spiritualy reality. It grabs a hold of my life more every day. It's Him keeping me and working through me. Thanks, Sherry |
