| Author |
Message |
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 9:22 am: |     |
For me, it was some information a family member sent me about Ellen White. Once I began to research further and found her to be completely unreliable as a prophet, the foundation cracked. As I studied more and more into the history and development of the SDA church, I found that the whole organization was built on that foundation. The building crumbled once the foundation was gone. There is absolutely no reason for the SDA church to exist except for the "ministry" of Ellen White. Remove her and everything eventually comes crashing down around her dead body. The Sabbath, the Investigative Judgement, the "health message", etc. It all originates with EGW or her advisors and contemporaries. The Sabbath came from Joseph Bates, the health message from Kellogg, the time-setting and prophecies back to William Miller, etc. etc. etc... |
Madelia (Madelia)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
Doug,
I agree with you; my experience with my husband is that he is so firmly entrenched in the beliefs, he won't consider looking at anything else. Nothing I try to show him or say to him makes a difference; it's going to be the work of the Holy Spirit on his heart |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
Speakeasy,
I tend to be of the opinion that seeing the light about the real Gospel and the errors of Adventism HAS to be a God thing. I donít mean to suggest that we shouldnít try to witness to our Adventist friends and family members as the Spirit leads. I am just saying that we shouldnít be surprised when information that seems to be so clear and so obvious falls on deaf ears or passes right over their heads. Until Christ removes the veil over their eyes, they simply CANNOT see (2 Cor. 2:14-16). I mean this quite strongly. I really believe there is an oppressive darkness there in some cases were it is not so much ìwill not seeî as it truly is ìCANNOT seeî. For me the single biggest trigger was when I actually started to read the Bible. I donít mean just the familiar proof texts, but whole books in context (especially the Pauline epistles). I had an encounter with God on a plane one evening (too long to tell here) and the experience of his very real presence and peace changed me to the point that I actually wanted to pick up the Word and find out more about this Lord I had just met. When I began to read I experienced severe cognitive dissonance because what I read didnít line up with what I had been taught. Believe it or not, diet was one of the things that first threw me for a loop. Being a strict vegetarian (who also tried to impose vegetarianism on my family) I was shocked to realize that not only did the Bible not particularly advocate for vegetarianism, but it actually said that ALL foods were clean for new covenant Christians. Eating meat didnít keep you from being translated to heaven and eating pork or shrimp wasnít a forbidden sin after all! This made me question Ellen White. Once I began to research Ellen White the whole façade came crumbling down. Once I knew that Ellen White was not Equal to the Bible, was not an authoritative interpreter of the Bible, wasnít even an accurate commentator on the Bible the flood gates were wide open to accepting the cleansing stream of the Gospel message contained in scripture. Salvation by works and the damnable Investigative Judgement doctrine were revealed for the lies they were. For the first time in my life I realized I could be assured of my salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. This one truth changed everything for me. Like most, I suppose the Sabbath issue was the last to be fully resolved for me, but I found the study of the covenants to be beautiful experience. Studying the covenants brought the whole Bible together into one spectacular arc that showed the leading of God and His revealing of Himself to mankind over time. Suddenly the Bible no longer seemed confusing and contradictory but displayed remarkable internal consistency. I have since studied the covenants with three other SDA families and found this study to be very helpful to others as well. All three families have now left the SDA denomination. But the fact remains, that it was not studying the covenants that made us ìseeî or caused us to leave. That was a sovereign act of God. I sometimes ask myself, ìWhy me? Why have I been blessed with this journey and not others that I know?î I do not know the answer to this question, but I praise the name of my Lord and God for what He has done in my life, in my family, and in the lives of our friends. He truly is an awesome God! |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | |
That was great Chris you are so right about everything you wrote. How did you get others to study? I often wonder why I was able to see it and not others. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading your post. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:27 pm: | |
TerryK,
I was sitting in a Sabbath School class/discussion group that was kind of a free-form thing were we sat in a circle and discussed various topics. Someone was going off about how he wanted to start a website so that he could proclaim the ìSabbath Truthî. He stated that this truth needed to be spread and preached above everything else (Neither the name of Jesus Christ nor the topic of the Gospel were ever mentioned). Someone else chimed in to say, ìYeah, thatís right. It seems like everyone out there just thinks that as long as they love God and love other people everything is okay. They act like thatís all you need to do to be saved.î (Iím not kiddingÖÖÖNebraska has a lot of hard core historic Adventists). All of these blatantly ludicrous statements began bringing scripture to my mind. As people began to chime in with similar statements, I found myself replying by reading scripture to them. I was providing almost no commentary. They would make one of these EGW inspired statements and I would simply read back to them what scripture said (I now think the Holy Spirit was enabling and directing this and bringing these scriptures to mind). This was a real eye opener to me because it was amazing to see how ANGERY some people became based on nothing more than hearing scripture read. At one point I literally thought one hotheaded guy was about to jump out of his seat and strike me. He was absolutely purple. After class a friend of mine said something like ìI donít know where youíre getting all this stuffî. I said, ìWell if youíd like to see why donít you and your wife come over after church and weíll look at some of these texts in the Bibleî. We studied the covenants together and he was so blown away by what scripture said that he called one of his friends and said that they had to hear this too. The six of us studied the same material together the next Saturday, then met together many times after that to study other topics. Later on the moderator of that Sabbath school class and his wife also met with us to study. All three families have now left Adventism. Thatís what I mean when I say, ìItís a God thing!î
Chris Lee
Lincoln, NE |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:43 pm: | |
Chris, what a wonderful post. I agree very strongly with your belief that "seeing" the problems and the truth does not come by means of information but rather by God's unveiling of our minds according to his own timing.
The first unsolvable problem for me was trying to figure out how the Sabbath figured into salvation by grace alone. I'd decided EGW was eccentric and fairly unreliable, and I'd relegated her to the back closet of my mind--but had not dismissed her entirely. In the meantime, I could see how all the other nine commandments could be revealed directly to a person by the Holy Spirit after they accepted Jesus, but I could not find evidence that the fourth commandment was revealed to true believers. I'd met just too many Christians who were living the other nine while worshiping on Sunday. It did not compute for many years, yet I believed it was necessary. (Major cognitive dissonance.)
Finally, I began asking God to help me read the Bible without my overlaying my SDA understanding onto the words. During the years I began reading the Bible and praying to read it for what it said, I began to read "stuff" about EGW that Richard began to find on the just-burgeoning internet.
For me, finally recognizing EGW as a FALSE PROPHET came almost simultaneously with discovering that the new covenant actually fulfilled the old. The moment I understanding that the transfiguration symbolized to Peter, James, and John that the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) would disappear and Jesus alone would be left with the God-given command, "This is my Son; listen to Him!"--that was the moment I KNEW I would eventually leave the SDA church.
I had to be able to call EGW a false prophet and dismiss her entirely from my life. That opened up my freedom to study all the SDA doctrines, and one by one, they all fell.
No, Speakeasy, I don't know a method for witnessing to an Adventist. God deals with each person individually, and each person's questions begin in different places. The best thing we can do is to tell our own stories and to answer questions they have. Oh, and pray for them!
Praise God for taking off the veil and for opening our eyes and hearts to Him!
Colleen |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:13 pm: | |
Great response Chris! I have been studying the Books of Moses (Genesis - Numbers) over the last several weeks. It has made more sense to me than ever before. I now realize why. I had always been taught that we were "Spiritual Israel," which meant we were a party to the promises and laws that God gave to them. So when the Bible says that God "made a covenant between Him the the Children of Israel for all generations," I took this to apply to me--sometimes. That's where the confusion arose. When does the promise/law apply and when does it not?
I now realize that by taking this approach, I was in effect rebuilding the wall of partition that Jesus broke down by His death and resurrection. Under the Old Covenant, salvation came only by becoming a Jew. A foreigner could be included in the provisions of the Old Covenant, but only as he submitted to circumcision and the other Jewish laws. Essentially, he had to become a Jew. Ephesians 2 (I don't have the exact verse in front of me) is clear that Gentiles were excluded from the promises under the Old Covenant. However, when Jesus came and died, He broke down that wall of separation and made salvation available to all, Jew or Gentile. There is no difference.
By identifying ourselves as Spiritual Israel, we are in effect denying that the veil has actually be rent and that we do not have direct access into the very presence of God.
Adventists have adopted this false interpretation in order to support their view of the law (since Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 are clearly addressed to the Children of Israel)and the health message among other doctrines. Althugh they hold that Jesus has become our High Priest, it is after the order of the Levitical Priesthood rather than after a new order which is based on better promises. It also prevents them from seeing the light of the New Covenant, which is why most Adventists will tell you that the New Covenant is simply the Old Covenant re-stated.
The result of all this is that, as Christ stated, reading the Bible becomes a tangled mass of conflicting texts which is best interpreted with the assistance of an inspired prophet. Because the Bible is so confusing, many Adventis do not trust their own judgement when scripture is plainly set before them, because they know that it can not be trusted to say what it appears to say, and therefore someone more "learned" must interpret it.
Once again, just my opinion. Others may see it differently.
Doug |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:18 pm: | |
Colleen,
I am sure you are aware that EGW interprets Moses and Elijah's presense at the Transfiguration as their coming to minister to Jesus. Having walked the steps that He was walking, they were better equipped than anyone else in Heaven to give Him support. Its hard to phatom how we accepted some of the things we used to believe isn't it? Doug |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:23 pm: | |
Doug, I've often pondered that fact. Somehow EGW's interpretation of the transfiguration never made sense; it seemed too significant of an event to be explained that two mortals came to strengthen the immortal God!
BTW, your post above perfectly explains my old confused thinking about the covenants. Thanks!
Colleen |
Leigh (Leigh)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:28 pm: | |
Last Tuesday, Thomas posted a great prayer in another thread. I shared the points of this prayer with a friend of mine. The only way to see the truth is to be taught by the Holy Spirit. To let go and to step out in faith.I liked what he asks of the Lord:
..........."Show me the truth as it is.
Not the way I think it is,have been taught it is,
or wish it were......"
Thanks again, Thomas
Leigh |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 6:31 am: | |
Guys and Gals. What powerful stories that you have. The things that you have gone through that was posted so far are great. Like I said I was just getting sucked into the Adventist teachings. It was not very long that I was going to there services. O'h but how fast you start to believe that they have the truth and it's so hard to this day not to believe that they have the truth. But anyway. When I was coming out of the SDA. When I found this web site. I would search this web site and others for people that were telling how they are leaving the SDA and what they are finding out about the SDA It was these type's of things that helped me the most. Learning what other people were going through and to learn HOW to study about things. Is there on the forum a thread that has more of this type of posting? You guys are great for sharing your stories. keep them coming. You never know who from the outside is looking in. And this maybe the food that they need.
Speakeasy |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 1:35 pm: | |
Richard and I have often heard people say that the stories of those who have left have been one of the most helpful things they've found.
SO MANY people who leave feel that they are alone and completely without support or understanding. Sharing stories really is powerful and helpful!
Colleen |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 8:44 pm: | |
when I was first coming out of adventist teachings the first thing I would come to on this web site was the stories. And for months I would go to the stories. And reading the letters of how other people were coming out of faults teachings. To me it was like gold. Then the forum along with a few other web sites. I truly learned how to study the bible and how to use it properly. One of the best web sites I have ever found on the study of the bible and a verse by verse study was www.lesfeldick.org He has audio on every study he does. the study's are 30 minutes each.I live in Tulsa,Oklahoma I found that he has a bible study in Tulsa I was floored. He has a T.V. show called through the bible. You may be able to check him out. He is usually on the independent christian channels.
Thanks
Speakeasy |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 11:59 pm: | |
Speakeasy,
Learning how to study the Bible and use it properly might be one avenue to reach SDA's. Remember, the SDA church believes in 'thought' inspiration where the 'words' are not important, but the thought is (and this is right out of the '27 Fundamentals' book.)
For me, the real disconnect was in seeing the lives of non-SDA christians. They didn't have the do's and don'ts, they wore makeup and jewelry and did all sorts of things that 'good' SDA's never would.
And yet, these wonderful Christians had the joy, the peace, the love, the care and concern for others that I didn't see in most of the SDA members. How could these good people be bound for hell and yet show the fruits of the Spirit? I had to figure out how to reconcile the two.
The first (and easiest for me) to figure out was that most of the stuff EGW wrote on diet, dress and health was ludicrous or ripped off from somebody else. Once I realized that, I realized I was dealing with a false prophet and it was all downhill from there.
I truly believe, though, that the urge to search is a God induced phenomenom. I just spent a week at the Redwood Campmeeting and heard SDA's admitting to being very uncomfortable with the deceptive practices used to bring people into the church---and admitting that often when the 'truth' is sprung on them, the deception is what causes these new folks to leave!
These same folks then turn around and listen to Doug Batchelor (who was at the campmeeting) who uses these same deceptive tactics, and comment on how wonderful his messages are and how much insight he has!
There is just so much that is contradictory within SDA'ism---because of their hermaneutic, because of their belief in thought inspiration, because of 'progressive truth'---that it is like being lost in a maze where it doesn't make sense but eventually it feels like home. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 5:00 pm: | |
Wow, Bill, that's a great phrase: "it is like being lost in a maze where it doesn't make sense but eventually it feels like home." So true!
This phenomenon points out the reality of the satanic claim on the denomination. (I know; some people get really upset when they read those words and think I am angry!) The reality, though, is that deception is not a spiritually neutral phenomenon; it is from evil. If God does not initiate deception, then Satan must. There are only two forces.
That foggy confusion that feels like one is in a maze but at least it's comfortable is the antithesis of the clarity of the gospel and the power of the living word of God when read with true paryers for the Holy Spirit's guidance.
In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul says that a veil covers people's hearts to this day when Moses is read. Only when people turn to Christ is the veil removed.
Praise God for truth and for the true revelation of God's will for us!
Colleen |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 6:15 pm: | |
Well I praise God you proclam truth. If someone teaches a different gospel then Jesus it is satan. Who else is there? I know people think that when I say cult. The church teaches a different gospel. It does not teach what the Bible says it was finished at the cross. They say there is more. I am angry but not a anger that eats at me and ruins my life I take that anger and tell others so they do do not fall in the trap I did. I tell others of Jesus love and the relationship they need. Thanks for speaking truth and calling sin sin. |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 7:54 am: | |
After reading almost all the posts and threads on this forum. And the ways that people started to discover that the SDA and Ellen White teachings do not add up to the word of the bible. Then all the things that you discovered of deciption and hiding the truth about Salvation alone in Jesus Christ. Not all people on this forum but most people on this forum were born into the Adventist Church and some were brought in at a very early age. And some were like me never really thinking that the Adventist way was nothing to worry about. What I am upset about. That most ALL churchs. DO NOT teach why Christians do not have to observe a Sabbath day and all the Trappings such as food laws and all the feasts and festivals that the Sabatarian and Jewish people say you must still observe. And when you are presented with things like these topics. And the verses and scriptures you WILL be shown about these subjects. If you are not ready for it (And a good chunk of Christians will not be) If you are not ready for the onslot of verses that you will be shown from the Adventist and other legalistic groups. It will shake you. And I have to put much of the blame. Not all the blame!! Back on the churchs and pastors. Because they do not teach you about why we do not keep the Sabbath and etc. Why do Most Pastors do not preach against deception? These same Pastors week after week after week. Will preach about how to keep a marraige strong and week after week about how to keep a family strong and how to make a marriage work. But never subjects like the cults will bring out to decieve. The Pastors I have talked to say well that is usually a Sunday School topic. And need to be taught there. Then you ask I would like to go to that class if you have one. And NONE of the churchs ever have a Sunday school class that is teaching about the Law. I think that the bulk of the pastors do not want to rock the boat. But I maybe wrong!! But When I was shown the things in a Sabatarion view point. I was quickly sucked in Because I wanted to follow the Bible and do what God said to do in the bible. I knew some things in the bible was for the Nation of Israel. I was never told that SUNDAY is NOT the Sabbath. But to this day I do not think that the normal Christian does not know the whys and how comes of the laws. And some if not a good chunk of christians could be sucked in by a Legalistic siminar. Just like me and my 8 other friends that were. And 3 of my friends do not go to any church any more and 5 are heavly into Judiasm and have denounced Jesus as the Messiah. So why do most Pastors and churchs do not stand up for the truth about the church down the street may look good but there teachings are not biblical? But I have found 1 Pastor that has been listing to my story and is willing to set down with me and help me out on some questions that I still have today. 4 Years after I left the cults. I have looked for one person that could help me. ALL of the pastors before just thought you want to argue with them about the law. Am I missing something that this maybe a week point in some or most of the churchs in America?
Speakeasy |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
Speakeasy, what you have experienced is the reality that many of us have seen: most Christians do not know how to defend the gospel against the teachings of legalism.
I suspect there are many reasons for this inability; one of the main ones for most Christians is a lack of depth in their Biblical knowledge. Most Christians believe that they need to acept Jesus in oder to be saved, but they don't always understand that the gospel continues to work in a person's life AFTER he accepts Jesus.
Most people do not study deeply into questions such as the law vs. grace, etc, because their experience does not bring those questions to their attention. Added to that lack is the fact that many Christians do not understand how connected to the Old Testament the New Testament is. Since the New Testament contains the details of how to live as a Christian, many people do not study to find the connections between the Mosaic law and the New Covenant fulfilled in Jesus.
Those people who do have a deep love of true Bible study often do find those connections, and they do become familiar enough with scripture--even with just the New Testament--that they can effectively rebut the arguments of legalism.
I remember our women's ministry leader Elizabeth Inrig saying one day in a conversation with me that most women (the focus of her ministry) don't think theologically. Her goal in developing inductive Bible studies of entire books of the Bible is to train women to discover the hidden treasures in God's word, and to discover the deep truths about God and about salvation contained in this amazing Book.
I'm speculating now, but my personal suspicion is that most people are satisfied with a superficial understanding of the gospel and of Jesus. To pursue more than a superficial understanding requires a huge investment of time and a willingness to grow and change in ways they might not want to change. Many people have accepted Jesus and are grateful for salvation, but, like the Corinthians, they are "stagnating" in their growth and are not pursuing a deepening relationship with Jesus through careful study of His word.
In fact, one of the flaws many people have when they study the Bible is that they read a passage and immediately ask themselves, "What does this mean to me?"
The real questions they should be asking when they read are, "What did this mean to the audience to which it was written?" "Are there any other places where the author of this book talked about this subject, and what did he say elsewhere?" "Are there any other authors in the Bible, Old and New Testament, where this subject was written about? What was said there?"
Then, as one compares other the writings of different authors in different settings regarding the same subject, one can begin to evaluate what the consistent message from and about God is in the text. Only after one has examined the meaning of the text to the audience who received it and compared that meaning to other instructions elsewhere about the same subject can one safely ask, "What does this mean for me?"
Of course, all of this study musst happen with prayer for the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth.
Yes, Speakeasy, there is a weakness in Christianity today; that weakness is a shallow understanding of the Bible and a limited understanding of how God works among men and women.
But God is faithful; he nudges each of us to know him and to pursue a relationship with him, and he reveals himself as we ask to know him!
Colleen |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
I sometimes get the impression that some of the legalistic teachings that SDAs grow up with are such complete non-issues, for most most Christians, that they don't see these issues as being worth in-depth study. I think most can't imagine wasting any great amount of time or energy investigating food laws or the proper observance of the Jewish Sabbath when it is so clear in the New Testament that these things don't apply to Christians. It sometimes bothers me that some Christians sort of brush off the Sabbath issue without truly evaluating and understanding how the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. Most are content to dimissively say something like, "Well as long as you worship God and spend time with Him, what does it matter what day you do it on?" While I happen to agree with what they are saying, I also believe that going no further than this leaves them ill prepared to refute false teaching and can actually lead to being confused or decieved by false teaching. Adventists are quite good at stringing together proof texts that seem to suggest that it matters very much what day you worship on. If you do not understand the covenants and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant rituals and holy days in Christ, how are you going to refute this type of legalism? I do wish more evangelicals knew more about what SDAs *REALLY* teach and knew more about how to refute this type of teaching. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
I couldn't agree more, Chris. One of the reasons the epistles, especially Romans and Galatians, are so powerful is that Paul explained how the New Covenant related to the Old. The New Covenant wasn't in a vacuum; it was the reality to which the Old pointed.
I believe that evangelicals could benefit greatly by really taking seriously the study of the Old Covenant and its relationship to the New.
You're right; by not really understanding the covenants, they are wide open to deception and to confusion when faced with legalistic proof-texting.
Colleen |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
When I was in the beginning of my relationship with B and hearing all of his claims about those of us who he decided didn't really care about the word of God, etc., I remember my pastor saying one day that all the 10 commandments still had relevance for today except the 4th, to which he said "it just doesn't apply". I thought he just opened the door to any new Christian to the influence of the SDA. In my limited exposure, they start with the 10 commandments and ask if you think they're applicable. And if you say yes, they go to #4 and nail you. A slight problem is presuming that we think Sunday is the Sabbath of the 4th, which most people I know don't.
Another general challenge to non-SDA churches is to even comprehend the role of the Old Testament, as a lay person. I remember asking a minister in my church one time if we weren't under OT law, why did we even bother with it. He said "first you'll never understand Hebrews if you don't understand the OT, but that's a great Bible study topic"...which never materialized. We spent hours and hours studying the books, but I still never recall hearing a sermon to explain the covenants, for example. Oh, I knew we were under the new, but didn't really understand what it meant to be under the old.
Hear this, though. It's my fault, primarily. I was lazy and allowed my church to spoon-feed me and got complacent with those feasts 1-3 times a week, and starved the rest of the time. Let's carry out that analogy... SDAs are "vegetarian"...meaning they feast on only certain foods within scripture. By ignoring other foods, their theologies are deficient in other "vitamins" (B12, for example, is only found in animal products, and there is ample information by secular vegetarian groups, particularly warning pregnant/nursing mothers against non-supplemented diets...because it causes retardation in children). Now it's not a perfect analogy but let's use it. In order for calcium to be absorbed in the body, a mineral is needed (and since I can't spell it) we'll just call it M. So you can get tons of calcium, but without that mineral, most of it passes through unusable. Maybe that's a little like fringe theological systems, not just SDA. They take in the "foods" they want, missing a balanced diet, and their body is deficient and missing things. or they take in adequate amounts of other foods but are unable to process it because of missing "minerals" or correct study skills. When our bodies are missing things, it does strange and unusual things. That's how scurvy of theology begins.
We've been talking about spiritual maturity at church, and the pastor made the comment how everyone likes babies, for a while. Then you get to a point where you enjoy them growing up. Spiritual babies aren't any different. Lots of churches starve their babies because they never learn to feed themselves properly. Others are given an imbalanced diet and their problems result in bad health (spiritual health).
Colleen, amazingly, did our Sunday school lesson this past week in regards to "how" to read the Bible. Thanks for the recap! :-)
And Chris is absolutely correct from my perspective. My 10 year old asked me one day how we knew Jesus was real and not just something people made up. The same week, B was arguing why the SDA view of jewelry is 100% correct. Now, in the grand scheme of life, do you know which I spent my time trying to answer at an "age appropriate" level?
There are lots of rabbit trail thoughts in my post, some might make sense and others may be too abstract. But they have helped me sort through the wide diversity of what's important. I hope they make sense and help somehow! |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 8:47 pm: | |
Somehow my main point got lost in my last post, so let me try to clarify what seems confusing now.
I, too, went through a period where I blamed the church for my not knowing about the traps in Adventism. Weíve had seminars within my church about Jehovahís Witnesses teachings and Mormonism, but why not Adventism. We were warned how they took verses and pulled them out of context, but why not Adventism?
When I first found out B was an Adventist, I asked all of my Christian friends what they knew about Adventism, none of them knew anything. Months after I was in this relationship, my children were involved with this man, I became very angry at the church. Why hadnít they warned me about this theological system? I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and my kids would have never gotten in a place for their little hearts to be hurt had I only known. I eventually had to realize that had I taken the teaching they had given me (about how to study the Bible and very sound theological teachings on salvation, grace, etc.) when faced with something that contradicted that, even if I couldnít clearly articulate what it was, I should have been in a position to identify the problems with more confidence. Iíve been proclaiming myself a christian for 25 years. Yet, I had not studied and could not explain the hope that was within me as I should have. As another popular radio teacher says, become so entrenched in the truth, that when faced with a counterfeit, you will know it. Though I now try to educate everyone who will listen to the enticements of Adventism, I had many years to prepare myself so that I could have given an answer to the challenges he had asked. Not everyone has that opportunity, I realize. I am only saying for me, and my own personal journey, I eventually had to look in to the mirror to find out why I didnít know better...based upon what I had done or not done to know the scriptures.
I hope I am not speaking out of place. Your stories encourage me. I am a stronger Christian because the people who write here are transparent with their pain and their learnings. It helps me feel less alone, though I canít always relate completely. Those who have traveled farther to experience the greater joys outside of the bondage give me hope for those I care about who are still ìinsideî. I try to share my story with others so that hopefully they learn from my mistakes. I am thankful that I did take the time to study things out pretty thoroughly rather than follow my heart. But a lot of that was my own pride that I couldn't possibly have missed it all these years. It has been a painful lesson for my whole family, but I am determined that Satan WILL NOT get the victory. Hopefully, my pain and the loss we have experienced will ultimately be able to bring GREATER glory to God. Thatís why I try to be transparent before others. Thatís why I tell my story. Mine is different than most on here, since I am more on the fringe than most. But there are others toying on that fringe and I hope to influence them away from such pain. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 6:40 am: | |
ìTheological Scurvyî. Ha! I like that. :-) |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 7:45 pm: | |
Melissa,
Guilty as charged. I've presented numerous seminars in the SDA church (a few elsewhere) regarding all those "other" cults.
Now I feel like a monomaniac. I want to proclaim to the world, and especially SDAs, the lies and shadows they believe, and point them to the New Covenant, in which the Father and the Son agreed to pay for our sinfulness, and redeem us, without our being involved at all, save from the point of receiving the results of Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection.
Steve |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 6:17 am: | |
Melissa,
I could be writing your story because I too had to learn the hard way. That is to get into my Bible and know why I have such a hope.
God was nudging me many years ago to read the Bible and study and I just kept doing a little devotional every day(I am not saying this is not good or there has to be more, but for me I needed more and God was telling me and I was not following)and just kept saying to myself ya I will some day.
Some day came in October of 1998 when scripture was read in preperation for the sermon from Romans 14 and I sat straight up in my pew and said to myself whow I did not know there was such in the Bible. Then when pastor got up and said He had given brother*** the wrong text I knew what I had to do and the rest is history. I might add a glorious on going history that has made me so captivated by the Word of God that I literally read it every chance I could and when I was not able to read I was thinking about what I had read or thinking I can't wait to get back to more.
Sometimes to try and forgive myself a little I think; I think it took this very thing to make me understand total Grace and no amount of Bible reading before would have done that as I needed a platform to spring off of and that was like you say maybe a little pride in finding out why I hadn't known all this before.
God knew how to get me to do this and that was to make me mad and when I get mad I work hard and thus my God knew that and here we are. I am not mad anymore only sad that a once loving relationship between my daughter and son-in-law and myself is entangled with knowledge of the law or how it was seen in the days of Paul or you have to read it in the Greek or Hebrew etc.etc. This is a verse that just came to me in my Bible reading today. 1 Corinthians 8:[1] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. This is love 1 John 4:10
This love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[1] our sins.
Thank you for coming and sharing your journey because it is thru the witness of others that we grow stronger as we thru no effort of our own come to a total understanding
of each others burdens because we have been there, thus God puts us together and thru this wonderful medium can be 2 or more gathered together for one purpose to glorifiy God because of what He did for us: Jesus
Carol |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
You see how important to tell people Not only what we have found out in studying the bible. But to tell people our Stories and struggles that we have and have had. the more detailed the better. We have tons of people everyday that come to this web site and read every word and letter of the forum and just like me in times past doing this very same thing helped me get through tuff times and understand that I am ready for the coming Of our Lord and savior. And I can stand in front of him with all my faults and sins Hidden or not. And I can say to him That I believe in you that you died for me a sinner and it is your shed blood that saves me. Not the LAW!!
speakeasy |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
Praise God that you can give that testimony, Speakeasy!
Colleen |
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