| Author |
Message |
Snali
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 5:21 pm: |     |
Lydell and Sherry2,we allready have plans to attend another church this coming week,so we havent been knocked to far for a loop.I was helping my neibhors with their computer and I asked them to tell me about their church and I asked them some rather pointed questions about some of what they believe.So,baring anything unforseen, we will attend their church this week and see what happens.I try very hard to keep an open mind so I will go in there with optimism and see.Any ways dont mean to babble to much just thought Id let you know.
Snali |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 6:57 pm: | |
Snali, I'm glad you're trying another church! God will continue to direct you.
I agree with Lydell's and Sherry's understandings of tongues. After studying 1 Corinthians, I also concluded that tongues can be for the purpose of evanglism or they can be a private prayer language. The one thing that does seem clear, however, is that worship services are to be orderly and for the benefit of the assembled believers. The Bible doesn't set a standard including falling down, barking, etc. Paul is really clear in 1 Corinthians 14.
Let us know how your church search unfolds!
Lisa, keep us posted on your husband's surgery. We'll continue to pray!
Colleen |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 7:02 pm: | |
By the way, Snali, while you're looking, check out your local Evanglical Free Church. (Chuck Swindoll is an example of an EV Free pastor, although I can't guarantee they all are like him!) Theologically, however, EV Free pastors should all be similar.
Colleen |
Ishmael
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 3:08 am: | |
From "legalism" to "spiritualism" is not for me. I left the SDA church many years ago to find Jesus and my christian "walk" has been full of contradictions and doubts. There have been many times when I did not act like a christian although there has never been a single time that my profession has been anything other than that. I have been sorely troubled by the charismatic emphasis, even insistence, on the "requirement" that the manifestation of a "bunch of utterings" is indicative of being "baptized by the holy spirit". It doesn't work for me any more than the legalism of the SDA church did. Why the emphasis on this "gift" has become so pronounced in these churches is beyond me, except that perhaps, as with the SDA sabbath and emphasis on the law, there is some "claim of validation of the truth" by those who possess and practice the "gift". Personally, I would rather have Jesus. If that is not enough for the spiritualists or the legalists, then so be it. I have to keep it simple. Jesus is first, last and everything in between. When he speaks to me by his spirit I hear it in the only language that I know......the language of love.
Ishmael |
Snali
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 4:57 pm: | |
Hi Coleen,
Its interesting to hear your opinion about this topic,my wife and I were talking about it last night and after reading everything we could find in the bible on the subject we came to the same conclusion.We believe that it can be for either private use or if in public their needs to be someone to translate what is being said,but without a shadow of a doubt it isnt required,nor is it the only gift of the holy spirit there is.
I have to say its nice to talk with people who have been there and done that,so they know what we are going through.
Would your church be listed as something else? In our area I cant find anything isted.
snali |
Dennis
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 9:33 pm: | |
Before the full canon of Scripture was in place, God used special miracles, including tongues, to authenticate the new Christian religion to unbelievers. God utilizes different methods, in different times, to reach His people with sacred truth. Now, however, God speaks to us through His Word and indwelling Spirit. Indeed, we can fully trust the final authority of Scripture as our sole guide to faith and practice.
Furthermore, tongues cannot be sought as a spiritual high. It is not the ultimate experience. The ultimate of the Christian life is "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death." (Phil. 3:10).
In Christ,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 8:24 am: | |
Dennis:
As a minister who is too Calvinist to the Charismatic and too Charismatic to the Calvinist, (some say wrong in both ends, I say perhaps in God's perfect balance) I fully agree with you in your post above.
We do have a PERFECT and FINISHED Cannon and God does speak to us through His perfect Word today.
Having made that clear, ALLOW ME HUMBLY to point out that, as I have written before in this forum, I do not believe that we need to resort to history to find out what Paul means when he says: "when that which is perfect should come". Paul made sure he emphasised the fact that when "that which is perfect would come" we WOULD NOT SEE OURSELVES ANYMORE AS LOOKING INTO A POLISHED DECORATED PIECE OF BRASS (THE MIRROR OF THOSE DAYS), DARKLY, BUT WE WOULD KNOW EVEN AS WE'RE KNOWN, 1 Cor 9:12.
Since the "time that I know as I am known" has not arrived yet, (unless I missed something...) I conclude contextually with the entire writings of Paul that "that which is perfect" is the same perfection to which Paul refers in other texts as a "future perfection": THE RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD.
The charismatic movement has made a mockery of the Gifts of the Spirit using them as TOYS rather than TOOLS. I believe and agree that this is the reason most "historic" churches decided to abandon it and find a combination of a "historic plus bliblical" way to explain it out of their teaching.
Again, I agree with you and there is no reason to engage in a lenghty discussion about it. I decided to make my point about "that which is perfect" clear which is a debate I have had for many year with theologians of all colors and none of them could show me Biblical evidence that God ever promised that in the future He would replace the Gifts with a Cannon. The reason is that neither the Cannon would contradict the Gifts and the Gifts would, rather CONFIRM AND REAFIRM the Cannon as stated by Paul in I Corinthians 14.
No, sir, the Gifts are not a spiritual high. I agree with this one too. The evidence is the church in Thessalonica that was a Church called by Paul as an "example to other churches" and there is only one mention in this church about Paul telling them not to despise prophesying. No other mention of the Gifts are mentioned. As such, its practice does not warrant spiritual superiority. If anything, the Gifts of Tongues denote immaturity since Paul calls it the "least of all gifts".
Grace Ambassador |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 9:12 am: | |
Dennis, when Christ was here on earth teaching, the people were able to see God in the flesh before their eyes. It was the purest most accurate teaching. Yet He still worked miracles. Why was that? To authenticate what He was saying. To prove the authority of God behind the words.
Is there today no longer sick people in this world? Of course there are. Has the Lord stopped caring about them? Is there no one anymore who is "possessed" and in need of deliverance? Are there no people alive now who have been so abused and neglected that they are unable to comprehend love except by some special revelation of God? Are there no missionaries out there working who are in need of miraculous protection? Is there no one at such an extreme in their life that they need a miracle?
If we say that miracles and the rest are no longer needed to authenticate the preaching of the Word, no longer needed in the lives of God's children, then we are saying that somehow folks today are just so much more intelligent and sophisticated that they don't need anything put to see or hear the Word to believe. Remember, the Spirit indwells the believer, not the one who has not believed. And those of us who believe are still "looking thru a glass darkly".
As GA has pointed out, the gifts are just the tools that the Spirit uses to minister to folks. But He uses His children to do those works. He moves through our lips, feet, and hands to get His work accomplished many times. There are always people who get a little goofy and lose the proper focus. But that doesn't negate that the Lord is still in the business of moving in miraculous ways and wants to use us to do those things, if we are willing. |
Snali
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 5:09 pm: | |
Hi folks,I am greatful for those who have differing opinions on these subjects but I am concerned when it is suggested that a subject shouldnt be discussed(maybe I misunderstand?)because there are a few of us here who are new to this and we need to hear what others have learned,that doesnt mean we shouldnt study the issues ourselves,its just good to have others opinions.
Also with all respect to Grace ambassodor,the first part of your writing kind of lost me, I tend to be a more simple minded person so I didnt get what it was that you were trying to say.
Thank you LYdell for more food for thought,we are heading to a new church this weekend and we already know that they believe in the use of tongues not to the point of saying that you have to speak in tongues only that it is one of the gifts of the spirit,not to the exclusion of other gifts so this should be interesting.
Thanks snali |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 6:04 pm: | |
Snali and all:
Please, tell me what you did not understand and I will be happy to explain.
Is it the term Calvinist?
If it is, then it is defining of people who believe, at least in part, on the teachings of the respected theologian (to many the king of theologians) John Calvin.
Is the term Charismatic?
If it is, then this is the term that defines non-pentecostal traditionalists who believe in the Gifts of the Spirit (Baptists, Presbyterians, and others). Pentecostals are the Assemblies of God, The Foursquare Church, the Church of God, the Church of God in Christ, and a few others.
Most Christian scholars assume that the two ideas above are diametrically opposed, hence the "fun" of saying that what I am too much for one I am not much for the other... It is as if I said, "I am too Latin for the Cockasian and too Cockasian for the Latin... Capice? (This means, "understand" in Italian, "comprende" in Spanish "comprendez" in Frech...)
I gave you a head start. Now, if you wish, tell me what you did not understand. In this forum, most people are well prepared to explain to you any part of my post. Also, because of the sweetness of your spirit as you've demonstrated so far I am confident that you are capable to understanding anything we discuss in this forum.
My comment as the necessity or not of discussing these issues too much is because they have been fully discussed in different cycles of this forum and you can find them in the "archives" of this forum. You can access the "Archives" then do a "search". Also, my comments were more personally directed to Dennis whose writings I really admire and do not wish to discuss with him an issue (to me at least) of lesser importance and that has been discussed fully as I said above.
I hope this helps.
Grace Ambassador
PASTOR OF THE EMBASSY OF GRACE CHURCH |
Lori
| | Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 6:23 pm: | |
Snali, I am guessing that your confusion lies in Grace Ambassadors mention of the word perfect (I Cor. 13:10) . A while back there was rather a lengthy discussion on this particular word on a different thread.
I believe that Grace Ambassador was only trying to show his non-agreement with Dennis' statement while at the same time evading more discussion on the subject.
There are several different views on this word <teleios>--perfect.
1) it refers to the person of Jesus Christ and his physical return 2)it refers to the completed Canon of Scripture-canon means measuring stick 3) it refers to the perfected state of the believer in eternity
Personally, I believe that it refers to the completed Canon of Scripture. Grace Ambassador believes that it refers to the perfected state in eternity.
It is an issue that does not pertain to salvation--and some people would say that it doesn't really matter if you've got the right view or not because it's not going to affect your salvation. However, just like most Biblical issues, this one also affects your confidence in Christ. The more Biblically correct doctrines that you carry in the "suitcase" of your soul, the more confidence/security you will have in your position in Christ Jesus.
The exchange on this subject should be easily found in the archives on this site. It's one of those discussion which many call insignificant but at the same time they sure can get emotional and defensive about it.(???--figure that one out) : )
Having stated my view on the subject; I'll leave it at that--if your interested in more indepth reason for why I believe the way I do. I'll be happy to converse with you about that through email.
Keep searching with all you heart (mind) and YOU WILL find the truth!!!
Lori
LoriCD@excite.com |
Snali
| | Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 4:45 pm: | |
Lori I sent a message if you dont get it please let me know.
snali |
Lydell
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 5:41 pm: | |
Snali, I'd encourage you to pay attention to stories from the history of the church, to stories told by missionaries, to the testimonies related to you by fellow Christians around you on the topic of the gifts as well as searching the scriptures. What do you see at work in the church? Does it measure up to what you have thought you understood about scriptures?
Is there no longer a gift of healing? Ask the one who was prayed for, felt a warmth or energy travel thru their body, and are now healed. Ask the one, like my friend's sister, who was told she was going blind...that her sight would be gone within 2 months...and instead is now seeing better than she has in years.
Is there no longer a gift of discernment of spirits? That would come as a real surprise to the pastor who is praying for someone and suddenly "knows" that there is something demonic at work, confronts it, casts it out, and sees the person freed. I believe GA has shared those kinds of stories before.
Are the gifts of wisdom, knowledge, and miracles gone? Check out books like "Gladys Aylward, the Little Woman" or "Through the Valley of the Kwai" by Ernest Gordon.
Is there no longer a gift of faith? That would surprise those who have been nearly crushed with despair, were prayed for, and suddenly felt faith leap to life and them never to worry about that thing again.
What I'm saying here Snali is that for someone to say that the gifts have ceased, they will have to explain away (and there is an awful lot of stuff to have to brush away!), or worse, attribute to satan, the works the Spirit is doing in the church today. You certainly owe it to yourself to do some investigating and praying on this one! As was said, it affects your confidence in Christ. It also will figure largely into where you decide to go to church, and what your Christian walk will look like. So your question is not just "is their a gift of tongues?" it is really "are there any spiritual gifts for the church today?" |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 9:24 pm: | |
I can't remember where I heard it, but a helpful rule of thumb for me regarding the gifts of the Spirit (which I do believe are still active today, by the way) is this: a person practicing the gifts of the Spirit needs also to be living a life displaying the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23).
Of course, Satan will counterfeit anything important that God does or is. Spiritual gifts are no exception. But one cannot truly and deeply counterfeit the fruit of the Spirit, because those things come only from God. The gifts are absolutely real; so is the fruit. God has promised his people that they will be filled with his Spirit, and he will dispense his gifts "Öto each one, just as he determines." (1 Corinthians 12:11)
Praising God that he lives in and through us,
Colleen |
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