Archive through July 26, 2001 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 2 » A (Not Quite) Former Adventist's Dillema » Archive through July 26, 2001 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Doug222
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I watched an excellent movie this weekend that illustrates the point we are discussing. Actually, I was reading an even more excellent book called "Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue and he (Blue) referenced the movie "Sleeping with the Enemy," staring Julia Roberts.

In the movie Roberts' character is married to a controlling, tyrannical, high powered business executive. Like all conscientious Pharisees, he is obsessed with detailed performance. He demands his wife hang the bathroom towels straight (keep the Sabbath flawlessly) and that she perform perfectly in public. When she accidently trespasses one of his rules (read laws), he verbally, emotionally, and physically punishes her. His abusive power over her is virtually total and makes her life unbearable.

She must break free of him. DIvorcing him is out of the question, he is too possessive and powerful to allow that. One of them must die if her freedom is to be secured, so she fakes her own death. Successfully accomplishing this, she flees to another city hundreds of miles away and assumes a new identity. By her death, she apparently delivers herself from a life of torment. As you might expect, in the movie, she meets another man who is the exact opposite of her husband.

I could go on, but I don't want to ruin the movie for anyone. But the movie is a rough depiction of Romans 7:1-4. As you watch the movie, you will see the struggle that all of us who came (or are coming) out of the adventist system have dealt with cocerning nagging feelings, doubts, and insecurities.

I don't often recommend movies, but I highly recommend this one. The entertaiment value is fairly hig, but I especially recommend it for the spiritual lessons that I am sure the producer had not intention of including.

In His Grace

Doug
Windmotion
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wanted to include something I heard in a sermon a while back that applies to this thread and changed the way I thought about life. The pastor said for a Christian there is no difference between the sacred and secular. I think he used the Colossians 3:23-24 passage "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."
The pastor said for Christians all ground is holy ground and every bush is a burning bush, referencing Moses' experience in the wilderness. In the Old Testament times, being in the presence of God was a rare event, but in the New Testament times, the Holy Spirit is with us always. A really good devotional book called"Experiencing God" by Blackaby and King made the statement that God is always at work around us, and He invites us to join Him in His work.
I am remembering a chorus too, popular a few years back that also makes this point. "This is holy ground. We're standing on holy ground. For the Lord is here, and where He is, is holy. These are holy hands. He's given us holy hands. He works through these hands and so these hands are holy."
Isn't that an awesome thing to think about as you go about your day?
--Hannah
Graceambassador
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Hannah!

Your point above is excellent. I also read a book that kills this old fashion DUALISTIC idea of two different worlds going side by side, i.e, secular world and spiritual world. The book was called "Secular work IS FULL TIME MINISTRY", by Peabody. It changed my mind as to WHO YOU'RE WORKING FOR ALL THE TIME. The boss may sign the check by YOU'RE WORKING FOR GOD!

The elimination of this dualistic thinking deals perfectly with the Sabbath issue of Rest. Our rest is eternal whether is still Wednesday or a rainy Monday as it is today in Holland-Michingan.

When Paul wrote the letter of Colossians, he was inspired to do so because of a few heresies and vain phylosophies that were common in those days. The same is common today in many circles.

Paul says that even "if we join our bodies to the one of a prostitute" the Holy Spirit is still there... Serious uh?

Now, if "all we do" we do it "unto the Lord" (I believe that the Greek gives an idea of "on behalf of..."); if we are PERMANENTLY in the presence of the Lord by the Holy Spirit; if God chose to abide in US temples made by His hands and not made by the hands of men; then:

--what day is today, or what I am doing (or not) today because of what today is in the calendar has NO RELAVANCE ANYMORE IN OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Thus those who still keep the Sabbath, even as the Jewish people kept, have no CLAIM OF RELIGIOUS SUPERIORITY: they do it at best as somenthing "vain" and "in vain", and at worse, they do it as a sign of comtempt and disrespect for all the Christ's did and IS for us. As such, the effects of keeping the Sabbath ARE CONTRARY TO THE DESIRED EFFECT!

I submit to all that the teaching of Sabbath keeping as necessary for salvation, or to MAITAIN one's salvation, and the reverse, not keeping it leads one to perdition ever after a "salvation" experience, is contrary to the Sovereign Work of God accomplished in Jesus. Furthermore it goes against THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST. Consider this:

If Christ is not OUR REST then we still must be working to earn our Salvation. If we must be working to earn or Salvation, or not to lose it, then CHRIST MUST NOT HAVE COMPLETED HIS WORK. If CHRIST HAS NOT COMPLETED HIS WORK, then, what is CHRIST FOR?

We cannot miss the point of the REST given by God.
The Sabbath points to this rest. We do not HAVE TO WORK for this rest, otherwise the idea of rest would be an oxymorum. One cannot say: "I am resting working". Neither one can say: I rest on my Salvation but I must accomplish this festival, day or ritual to be saved.

One of my most inspired messages I ever preached is about Jesus telling His disciples: "Let's go over to the other side"... Then Jesus is found sleeping amid a storm. Jesus slept, RESTED, the disciples WRESTLED. As God, Jesus knew a storm was coming but he chose to find whatever cushion He could find in a fishing boat and "REST". Perhaps to be swang to sleep by the rocking of the boat. The disciples, however, WRESTLED...

Christ was about to teach us an eternal LESSON ABOUT THE REST HE IS AND PROVIDES:

To "GET TO THE OTHER SIDE", our final destination, one MUST REST IN JESUS. One either RESTS on His Salvation or WRESTLES FOR SALVATION.
The former brings about CALM AND COMFORT in the middle of the storm. The second brings the ominous panic generated cry "DON'T YOU CARE THAT WE DIE"... The point of the sermon was/is GRACE BRINGS PEACE, WORKS BRING THE EXPECTATION OF DEATH!

I chose to REST IN HIM WITH HIM AND THE REST THAT HE IS! Amen

Grace Ambassador
Windmotion
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GA, you are from Holland MI? I applied for a newspaper job there, but I ended up in Port Huron. How are those tulips?
--Hannah
Graceambassador
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Hannah!

The tulips are great: for a couple of days in the spring. It seems that the city has not figured out the "timing" of planting these last two years.

This year they (the city) allowed me to dig out the bulbs and keep them as my property. I have 150 of them!
My frontyard and backyard will be a Tulip farm next spring!

Holland is one city in America where unemployement is NEGATIVE. As such, they allow free immigration here for the Mexicans. So, this city has become Mexican and obviously 99,99% of them are illegals! I am Brazilian, am here solely for ministry and I am LEGAL!

The major companies of America that provide for the automotive industry is here. Only I AM OVERQUALIFIED FOR ANY JOB! SO, I stick to ministry!

As far as the SDA, there are here three major SDA run companies (or individuals who claim to be SDA). The most famous is Tiara Yachts that manufactures Yachts (spelling???) for the most famous people in America. No hope of overtime on Saturdays for these folks: only on Sundays.

These businessmen built a new and beautiful SDA church in the woods here and are very proud of it. So, here we have the Reformed in one corner, the Christian Reformed accross the street and the SDA's in the woods. SINCE I HAVE NOT SEEN THE DEVIL RUNNING FOR COVER YET, I AM OPENING MY OWN CHURCH! PERHAPS NOW, YOU KNOW...

Grace Ambassador
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm re-reading C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" because I'm going to use it on my outside reading list for my freshmen this year. How long has it been since you've all read The Chronicles of Narnia? For me it has been 11 years. I needed to re-read it as a born-again Christian!

I'm so struck by the symbols Lewis uses. In this book he has an ape, Shift, creating a false Aslan. (Aslan, as I'm sure you all know, is the Christ-figure. He's a lion, and he's good, but he's not a tame lion!)

I'd never thought about a point Lewis makes before. When the false Aslan is finally uncovered, (read Antichrist), many Narnians refuse to be comforted and to align themselves with Aslan. "How do you know you're not deceiving us?" they ask the king of Narnia. "We've been deceived once; we refuse to be deceived again! There is no Aslan!" (Or words to that effect.)

The obvious intent is people's refusal to accept the real Jesus. It struck me last night, though, that to many of us the Sabbath is that false Jesus. If that is exposed as only a shadow, many refuse to embrace the real Jesus. "We've been deceived once; we refuse to be deceived again!"

The bottom line is a personal relationship with a real being, Jesus. If the day is too important, Jesus can't be God.

Just a thought! I praise Him for being everything for us!
Colleen
Joni
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah,
How could you end up in Port Huron going to Holland? I live in PH and Holland is 3 hours away. Next time call me and we can go out to lunch!

Joni
Shereen
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 6:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I swore I would never post here again but, being deceived has done strange things to my thought process.

While recovering from the deception of the Adventists, my mind tried to wrap itself around what is really true. What does one believe now without the fear of deception.

I have been reading, online, bible vs. Koran, other belief systems, etc.

The only thing I can really believe now is God. I am having a terrible time even believing the bible anymore because I am not sure if Jesus is real, if Noah was real, if Elijah, Adam & Eve, Jonah, or almost any of what the bible says is real anymore.

Just think of how hard it was to come to the realization that SDA was false. Now, lots of other 'religions' believe that the christian faith is false and that we are all being deceived. This has me going down a road of very tough questions. What is real? Who is telling the truth? Am I still being deceived?

The only thing I can be sure of is God. I pray to God to help me find the right answers but don't trust anyone or any thought anymore.

*sigh*
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 7:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You'd be referring to the Slikkers, GA? I went to school with one of the boys. Boy does $$$ help people in the SDA system. Kids get away with tons if the $$ are there. We live in Grand Rapids. We heard they had "Stem Festival" this year in Holland. We usually go down for the festival but missed this year.

Shereen, it's ok to struggle. I truly believe that your faith cannot be as strong until you've wrestled with the doubts. Can I recommend two books to you to read? You can find them at a Family Bookstore or order them online at christianbooks.com. The first is "Jesus among other Gods" by Ravi Zacharias. A very good books from a man who lives in the eastern culture and was raised Muslim I believe, and how in the eastern culture (which is the culture Christ was in) looks at the claim of Christ and why he chose to become a Christian himself. It's actually a good book to share with Hindu and Muslim friends. It gave me insight into understanding Christ's words better then before. Second book is "Reaching out to the Invisible God" by Philip Yancey, a book dealing with our doubts, struggles, and being honest. Thank you for being honest, Shereen. Blessings to you. God does indeed love you very much. His promises are true.
Trippllb
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although my better judgement tells me otherwise, my twisted sense of humor is forcing me to share. Impulse control has never been my strong suit. GA said "Paul says that even "if we join our bodies to the one of a prostitute" the Holy Spirit is still there..." Even though I haven't stepped foot in an SDA church for 12 years, this is a good example of just how ingrained the ideas are. When I read that statement, the picture in my minds eye immediately went to that of a long line of angels standing up against the wall outside of a movie theater just waiting for the patron to come back out. How can the holy spirit be in us if we are with a prostitute if our angels won't even step foot into a movie theater with us? What happens if we join with a prostitute while we're IN a movie theater?
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Trippllb:

I failed to understand your point, sorry...

I will give you the courtesy of answering it:

Please read with the same open mindness 1 Cor 6:15-20.

Compare it with 1 Corinthians 3:16-17-18.

If the Spirit would leave the body when a man sins or defiles it with a prostitute for example, why would God have the need to "destroy the man who "owns the body"?. Would not the "body" stop being the "temple of God" if the Spirit would leave, thus no need to destroy it? Does not God destroy the body to release the Spirit from abiding in a defiled temple?
Is Paul not saying that out bodies REMAIN the temple of the Spirit during the same time that is "joined" to a Harlot...

Just rethorical questions.

My points were pertinent to THIS THREAD in the whole context, AND I WISH TO KEEP IT THAT WAY!

The issue is the Sabbath. Any insights?
Thanks anyway for this one.

Grace Ambassador
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2:
Yup! That's the name... Does it mean anything figuratively: SLIKKERS? (chuckles...) you tell me!
Imagine if they have a William in the family...
In his correspondence, where the last name shows first... does it say SLIKKERS WILLIE? (chuckles...)

Grace Ambassador
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi again Trippllb:

I forgot to mention that your sense of humor is not twisted at all...It is actually WHOLESOME! I thought your proposition was actually very funny. It also depicts the faulty logic of "religiositymongers" that probably, you and me alike, grew up with.

I failed to provide scriptures in a blunt statement (I often do it assuming people are in the same trend of thought that I am). So I decided to use your humor to ask rethorical questions.

Please do not feel that I did not take your humor as I am the one who ALWAYS DEFENDS HUMOR as a means of healthy argument.

Thanks anyway!

Grace Ambassador
Trippllb
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry GA, no point at all really. If your raised traditional SDA, you are taught that your angel will not go into a movie theater with you. After all, I was always taught that they are evil places and your angel won't proceed into evil places with you. Hey, it didn't make sense then either! I can remember many conversations with my brothers debating whether your angel would enter the theater to save you if the place was on fire. Just bad attempt at SDA inside humor I guess. I'm just glad I'm free of those beliefs now.
Larimobley
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Shereen,

I can relate strongly to your post about
wondering what, if anything, is real once you
have left Adventism. When I stopped being an
SDA, I gave up believing even in God for many
years, and would never have imagined myself
a Bible-believing Christian again.

I think the starting point for me was answering
the question, "Who is Jesus?" I had to come
back to faith in Jesus--and particularly in
salvation through grace alone--before
anything else. If you haven't already read it, I'd
recommend "The Case for Christ," by Lee
Strobel, another former athiest.

One thing I have learned in my journey back to
Christianity is that God does answer our
earnest prayers seeking the truth about Him.

I'll be praying for you, and I wish you grace and
peace.

Lari
Sherry2
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2001 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! Beautiful testimony, Lari. Thanks for sharing.

I think what Colleen wrote above about the Chronicles of Narnia...the false Aslan..is quite true to our walk out of Adventism. You do tend to go through this struggle with "maybe everything is a lie. maybe nothing is true at all." I mean, I know I did. I felt like who can I trust now? If a "christian" organization can deceive me, where can I go that is truly safe and in God's will? A foundation of trust had been destroyed in a day...is it possible to build one again? All I can say is Yes it can, and God is alive and well on His throne. And soon, when I die from this world, I will see Him face to face. If not sooner. I hope sooner, but His will be done. For me the claims of Christ cannot be ignored, and they have been superior to what I've found in other religions that I've looked at. Jesus is the answer.
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2001 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shareen:
Since you're searching, which, by the way, is Biblical and welcome by God (Come and let us reason together..., and also chapters 38-42 of Job), and because Christianity was never afraid of publicly confronting with other "religions" since the time Moses' serpents ate Pharaoh's serpents, humbly and with brotherly love, I recommend you to read the booklet:
"MORE THAN A CARPENTER" by Josh Macdowell, and see if anyone can in good conscience deny the claims made by Jesua about Himself. In addition, read selected chapters of "Evidence that demands a Veridict" of the same author. Read the proofs of the accuracy of the NT.

In Christ,there is no condemnation for you Shareen, as long as you are seeking His truth.

The promise to you is:
Isaiah 42:3 - "A BROKEN REED SHALL HE NOT BREAK, AND THE SMOKING FLAX SHALL HE NOT QUENCH"

He will not beat you for going through what you're going through and for having such questions! Rather, He will show you His truth!

Thus saith the Lord: "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, thoughts of peace and not of evil to give you an expected end"

I pray it will help you

Grace Ambassador
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen, thank you for your honest sharing. I also understand those doubts. While mine haven't been exactly like yours, I've also wondered how I can be sure the Bible or God are real and true. Especially I've wondered how I could be sure Christianity was really the truth.

I appreciate Sherry and Lari's responses, and I second the recommendation that you read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. I found it powerful. I will also be praying for you.

I want to mention The Chronicles of Narnia again. I finished reading "The Last Battle" on our way home from a conference in Central California today. It is a completely different book to me since I've left Adventism and become truly a Christian.

One of Lewis's metaphors that I found powerful and surprisingly moving was the stable. Narnia's king and several others watched a showdown in a clearing in front of an old stable. The leader of the Calormenes, followers not of Aslan but of another god, Tash, insisted that Aslan and Tash were one and the same. He insisted Tashlan (the amalgamated name of the supposed one god) was inside the stable, and that he would kill anyone bold enough to enter.

To make a long story short, the Narnian king Tirian finally entered the stable dragging the Calormene general in with him. When he entered the stable he was shocked to discover that he was standing in a beautiful meadow with blue skies, a soft breeze, and exceptional beauty. There was no sign of a stable. There he met five humans who had a history of visiting Narnia at Aslan's direction to assist in times of trouble. He asked how they got there, and they said, "We came through that door you just entered."

Tirian turned and saw to his surprise a door in a door frame, free-standing behind him. He walked around the door, and could see nothing but more of the beautiful meadow on the other side.

"What do you mean?" he asked King Peter.

"You have to walk THROUGH the door," Peter responded. If you walk around it, he said, you will find only what you already see. If you walk through it, you will find something new. "Look through the crack between the boards in that door," he instructed Tirian.

Tirian peered through the crack in the door, and there he saw the same forest, the dying bonfire, and the unhappy people gathered before the stable.

Interestingly, those who entered the door who did not honor Aslan, those who lived only for themselves and refused to believe in Aslan or in Tash, those people entered and found only a dark, smelly stable.

"The stable," Peter told Tirian, "is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside."

Isn't that profound? I never caught that when I read it before. You must walk THROUGH the door to find the real Narnia, the land of joy and peace and beauty. You can't walk AROUND the door. And if you aren't open to knowing truth, if you're not willing to know Aslan, you won't find that land. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and if one is spiritually closed, he will not find freedom. He will only find fear and darkness and filth in the stable.

Reality is only available when we're willing to know what's real. And reality is much bigger than we can see. Spiritual reality is MUCH bigger than anything we can merely see. Once we walk through that stable door, once we risk losing ourselves in order to see truth, what we find is bigger than what we perceived before.

We do have to honestly deal with our doubts. That's part of commitment to truth. Part of that dealing is being willing to KNOW even if the truth is something we haven't believed. God is faithful to reveal truth when we desire it. And the experience of knowing Christ and living with the Holy Spirit is truly a new reality. It truly is bigger than anything else. And it's true; you have to walk THROUGH the door; you can't go around it and find that reality.

I highly recommend re-reading Narnia if it's been awhile since you've read it. I was surprised how emotional I felt when I finished The Last Battle. To read Lewis's allegories of Jesus and salvation and judgment and eternity on top of understanding how real his love is was a powerful experience.

Praising God for revealing truth to us,

Colleen
Shereen
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 7:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you.

I will go tonight and purchase The Case for Christ. It is hard to be so unsure of the bible and Jesus, then have everyone point you to parts of the bible for answers?!?!?

I guess most of our thinking is so limited that we can't see beyond what we are told to believe.

My common sense tells me there is a God. How could life possibly exist without some higher power. So, God I am sure of. The rest I need to find out for myself and I have to truly believe with my whole heart and soul before I ever commit to anything again.

Oh for the days when I was blissfully, ignorantly, a sheep in the SDA church. Things seemed so simple then. I had so much to look forward to and peace in my heart. Why couldn't it have stayed that way. At times, I enjoy blinders but God has given me a very curious mind and a thirst for knowledge. It is very hard to live with blinders but a wonderful escape.

Shereen
Trippllb
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

When I first started questioning my fundamental belief system, the first step I took was to determine if I believed the Bible. I was wrestling with some issues that the Bible was speaking directly to me and telling me NO. But if I didn't believe that the Bible was inspired, how could I follow the advise of NO when I so desperately wanted YES. My wakeup call came when I asked a good friend who was actively participating in the sin I was struggling with entering into how he justified his actions to what the Bible said. After all, he always said he was a Christian. His answer knocked me back but really made me think. He said that he had taken the Bible and thrown it away. That it was written by men and men made mistakes. It was a book like any other with some good advise, but that he did not believe it was inspired. He said that he believed in a God, and that his God knew his heart so he didn't have worries about what the Bible said. Well everything inside me screamed that it was the wrong answer. That the Bible COULD be trusted, but I had no good answers as to why. So I decided that if he could justify his actions by tossing out the Bible, I had to decide if I believed the Bible before I could continue on the path I was heading for. I talked to my brother and he sent me The Case for Christ. It was a major stepping stone in my decision to believe that the Bible was truly inspired and wasn't just another book. I chose not to enter into the sin I was contemplating as a direct result of reading it, and honestly, it was the best decision I could have made. Since determining that the Bible was trustworthy, my walk with Christ has been better, and my relationship with Christ has become a reality.

It's so hard to get shaken to the core and realize you may have been lied to all these years. But there is also an amazing freedom and peace that comes from studying for yourself and believing what you believe because YOU studied it and nobody else GAVE you the answer. It's a hard struggle to start, but I can suggest you continue to pray for wisdom (even if you don't know who you are praying to) and guidance. If you ask for it, you will receive it.

Your statement about being blissfully ignorant in the SDA church reminded me a scene in the movie The Matrix. When the main character Neo is freed from the lie that is the Matrix, it's so overwhelming that he just wants to go back to the blissful ignorance he once knew. But once he is freed and knows the truth, he can't go back again. At first, he is overwhelmed and doesn't accept that it's the truth, but once he accepts it, and embraces it, he grows stronger in the truth and eventually ends up overcoming the enemy. LOL....no, I'm not a SciFi geek, just thought it was a pretty good movie with great salvation symbolism. Anyway, good luck in your search, but don't stop searching. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Lisa

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration