| Author | Message | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Hello Friends, I'm currently engaged in a conversation with some old friends (the friendship is old, not the people! ;-) who are still SDAs. This is not new for me -- I have done it often. However, they have asked a question that I sure could use some perspective on. So, I'm going to post part of their latest e-mail below -- and I'd sure appreciate any entries from those who would like to offer their ideas as how to answer. I'm especially thinking of question #1. I think each of us might have been carrying different burdens as SDAs, but I think there is a kind of "universal" 'burden' which we each experienced. How would you articulate what our primary "burden" in Adventism was? I've got some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours! Thank you in advance, Dennis<>< Here's the e-mail: _________________________________________________ Hi Den, We have been horrified by the terror seen on TV yesterday.... May God help our country and guide our government in the future. Ken asked me to ask you these questions: 1.What is the burden that was lifted when you left your former church? 2. What do you no longer believe? We will not reject you, because we love and care about you and your family. Please give us your feelings about yesterday's happenings and the questions asked. Love to all, | ||
| Loyal_seeker |
Dear Dennis and Ken: The greatest burden of being born into the SDA church has been the weight of fear of not measuring up to God because I fail to acquiesce to the 'standards' of the church. As a CHILD, I could not accept the idea that my mind was too small to distinguish reality from fairytales, i.e. fiction; and yet in a very large measure, that is just what happened to me regarding EGW. What an appallingly awesome thought! I am thinking as I write and hope you will forgive me for any possible disjointedness in my post. The lack of friends in public school because I was different, in my actual name, as well as the far reaching implications of the Monday morning questions of "How many went to church this week-end? How many went to the movies?" The answers to these questions resulted in the classroom with the most church attendance being allowed to keep the Christian Flag and the American Flag on the teacher's desk for the week. I was proud that I was able to contribute very often to my class having that privilege. However, when the Walt Disney "True Life Adventures" came to our local theatre, my Dad, who had been raised a Methodist, scraped together the money to take us kids to see at least the first one of this series. We moved not long after to the nearest SDA College where he was employed, (many of you may know him when I feel comfortable enough to reveal who I am)and where they showed the series in the auditorium as they became available. But the financial deprivation I personally suffered at the hands of the institutional work/pay policies are still a point of hurt and, yes, even bitterness, at times. While I understood the necessity of paying my school bill, I could not understand why I was not allowed to give an offering as well as paying my tithe. This was a situation where my parents were working hard to get out from under a business-related bankruptcy. If my memory serves, they were relieved legally from repaying the debts they owed at the time of my father's employment by the denomination, but my dear Mother's sense of ethics would not allow her to not pay those monies legitimately owed. As a result, I NEVER had money to spend on anything and this fueled a great lack of trust in God and His mercy to me personally. This whole area seems to be fed by the 'poverty is a virtue and sacrifice is preferable to pleasure of ANY KIND' attitude prevalent in almost every page of her writings -- at least those I have tried to read. But that same pervasive 'caution against worldliness' absolutely devastated me emotionally and put me into a hopelessness that I am still trying to dig out of. I have almost always paid a faithful tithe and offerings. But it seems to me that God has not fulfilled His promises to me in the degree that I would have expected from so many stories of "the rain parted to save my field of wheat from destruction, and then went on to wipe out my neighbor's field' kind of stories so often told to bolster the belief that SDA's are the only true remnant of God. It seems to me, however, that much of those experiences have been instrumental to my final freedom from EGW. Are there questions? Yes, but I have asked God to lead me in His truth and I can now trust Him to do just that. Don't know if this is the kind of story you want, but it is mine and I share it with you all. God is in control. I do not always understand His workings, but I do have peace that He will provide for me through His El-Shaddai, "the God who nurtures (literally, the 'breasty one')" nature. Without Wax, Loyal Seeker | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Hello, I will give my answer to question #2. I was raised in the Catholic Church, baptized SDA in 1960, west LA. I left the Catholic church becaused after reading the Bible I saw things that as a Catholic we didn't do, and things we did that are not in the Bible. After asking a lot of questions I just left the church. Forty years as an SDA, holding many jobs in the church, also working with an Evangelist for about 5 years, I ask one question, the answer I recieved brought on the second question, and the third, and on and on. Now I question every (so called) standard of the church. What I have found is awesome. Not enough time and space to list them all. I will list a few items that opened my eyes. 1. Daniel 8:11-13, 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? I can't believe that the little horn is the Papacy because in order for the Papacy to do what the little horn did, the Papacy had to do this before Jesus died on the cross, do you get it? No daily sacrifice or sanctuary after the cross. The little horn can't be Rome because the angel didn't say anything about Rome also Rome didn't come out of one of the four Generals of Alexander the Great. Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. If you want more please let me know. Andrew Adams | ||
| In_his_service |
Dennis, What led me to the truth was reading the Bible and ONLY the Bible, without aid of other "inspired writngs". When I did that, I discovered that the New Testament contains a new covenant. The SDA movement takes their beliefs from the Old and ignores nearly all of the new. What I had always been taught, simply was NOT in scripture. So much of what I believed to be scripture was EGW. So much of what we were taught to be hallmarks of God's people in the last days were things which St. Paul stated were no longer in effect for Christians. The only way any Adventist can ever see the truth is to put away the denomination's writings.........forever, and read only the Bible. Ask the Spirit to fill you and lead to to all truth. Read the scripture IN CONTEXT and completely, front to back. KEEP READING IT IN THAT MANNER UNTIL THE MESSAGE IS UNDERSTOOD. The message from Genesis 1:1 TO Revelation 22 is J E S U S. Not law, or diet, or sanctuaries, or special days, or judgements, or special "last day messages", but J E S U S. <>< | ||
| Doug222 |
Dennis, The burden that lifted for me was the burden of always having to measure up to some undefined standard. I knew that I was saved by Grace, and not my works, but at the same time I knew that I had to be "ready" when my name came up in the investigative judgement. Of course being ready meant adhering to a long list of do's and don'ts. The problem is that I never knew how much imperfection (which I have plenty of) would qualify as ready. As a result, i was like the hamster on the proverbial wheel. I was constantly striving for that that could never be obtained. Now that I have been relieved of that burden, I am free to enjoy God more fully. Now rather than attempting to "measure up" by keeping the Sabbath, payng tithes, being involved in church administration, attending evangelical crusades, having the right doctrines, etc. I can focus my energies on worshipping Him for who he is. The terrorist attack has simply confirmed that. I have mentally placed myself on one of those hijacked planes time and again. I have tryed to consider what I would have done. Unfortunately every alternative ends in death. The only possible exception is if someone were to miraciously come and offer to exchange places with me on the plane. It doesn't matter how circumspectly I act on the plane, it doesn't matter how much I struggle with the terrorists, it doesn't even matter if I got them to change their course. The end is the same--death.. I see the same thing in terms of my Christian walk. Except that I accept the free gift of salvation, with no strings attached, I am headed for "ground zero" and no amount of "proper behavior" is going to change that fact. Adventism never taught me that. But realizing it has relieved me of a tremendous burden. In His Grace (and no longer on the plane) Doug | ||
| Lydell |
I think another burden that is lifted is being separated from brothers and sisters in Christ. The Adventist mind definitely has a wall up between them and Christians of other denominations. There is this subtle thinking that takes hold that somehow "those people" will pollute you or something. I think you are right Doug, the biggest one is the constant mental "measuring". | ||
| Sherry2 |
I had never heard of the New Covenant before leaving Adventism. It was like a breath of fresh air filling my whole being with peace and love from God above. The incessant measuring can drive someone nuts...are you holier because you don't eat cheese and I do? If I wear a watch with a diamond in it is that a sin? If I wash my kids bedding because they wet it on the "Sabbath" is that a sin? Should I cook all the meals before sundown or can I cook on Sabbath? Should I even turn on the electricity? These and a thousand questions I wrestled with incessantly as an SDA. The more I read EGW the more hopeless I felt....oh sure I'd get glimmers of hope...especially from "Steps to Christ" and "Desire of Ages" but lingering in "Adventist Home" , "Spiritual Gifts Vol 1-3, and such would leave me feeling utterly lost and depressed. What I left behind was guilt, bondage, a false prophetess, a bunch of man-made rules that aren't even Scriptural (boy was I surprised this year when I found out David brought cheese to his brothers in the army!)...for me I left what was a piece of hell on earth. But then sometimes living under the law is necessary so we can know and understand how sweet Grace is. Your application to the plane was a very good analogy, Doug. Thank you. Oh, I'd agree with Lydell too. One of the reasons I inititally had in my letter of why I was leaving was prejudism. I knew I was raised in a prejudiced environment....after spending 3 years in a mom's bible study group and seeing these wonderfully strong Christian women who were not SDA and not seeing that in my own church ever, I was impressed and realized something might be amiss. I have prejudism to work on on a regular basis because of this upbringing. Also, I enjoyed the awesomeness...(this is the best part) of security in Jesus Christ and Him alone without needing to be tied to SDAism. I realized by God's grace that even if I attended the SDA church for the rest of my life (Lord knows that doesn't happen once you start making these steps of freedom but lets just say...)having my name physically removed from the books meant that I was taking a stand for Jesus and Him alone as my salvation. That was truly freeing and liberating. I realized that I was truly standing for Jesus and understanding that salvation was totally in Him. Thanks for this thread, Dennis. I am enjoying reading what everyone has to say. :) | ||
| Dennis |
Just a few lines to say how thankful I am for the wonderful gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. How could we have missed such a wonderful message for so long? Indeed, God, in His own timetable, has called us out of legalism. Like the Apostle Paul, this background gives us a special appreciation for the New Covenant. We are no longer burdened with a paradigm of fear as we formerly believed. Jesus has promised to never leave nor forsake us. The recent WTC and Pentagon tragedies, create intense terror in the hearts of our SDA friends. As they view their eschatological charts, doomsday is right around the corner when Sunday-keepers will hunt them down, and even kill them. Furthermore, without any assurance of salvation, they are soon destined to stand before a holy God without a mediator. Their message of fear, finds them never good enough to be saved. This "escalator effect" causes many to give up their Christian journey entirely. Despite their desperate attempts to place Christ in Christless doctrines, Adventism stands powerless to transform lives. Thank God, some of their adherents find the gospel, in spite of their cultish dogma. Yes, but for the grace of God, I would still be enslaved. What a sobering thought that is! LET FREEDOM RING! In His grip, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker |
This really is a great thread, Dennis. I relate with everyone's responses. One of the biggest burdens that was lifted for me was the burden of not being sure I was saved. I KNEW I was secure forever! Another burden that was lifted was that of the fear of death. I knew, finally, that nothing could ever separate me from God. Even if I were to die, my spirit would be with Jesus. No "sleep" would destroy the essential "me" that communicates with God. I will always be safe and held in the love of Jesus! Another burden that left was the existential "angst" that always ran just below the surface of my life. I can actually live in peace! I really praise God for choosing me and saving me and giving me His Spirit. Praise God for truth and reality and justice and grace and mercy. Praise Jesus for his death and resurrection. Praise the Holy Spirit for living in us and for making Jesus real to us! Colleen | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Wow! Thank you friends for you wisdom and perspective! I'm trying to run out the door to an appointment right now -- perhaps I can reply more properly and completely soon, but I want to thank each of you for your contribution. If anyone else has any other thoughts, please keep them coming... In Christ, Dennis<>< | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Oops! Make that "YOUR" Wisdom and perspective... Only perfect in HIM! Dennis<>< P.S. Richard -- when are you going to get a spell-checker installed on this thing, so I can look smart!! ;-) LOL! | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Greetings again friends, Another question has come up in my discussion with my friend Ken that I'm hoping perhaps someone can help me with... I made the statement to him that it seems there are an increasing number of Adventists who are moving out of Adventism and into a more accurate and fulfilling walk with God in other churches. He is wondering if there is some source that documents such a claim. (He is not antagonistic -- it is an honest question...) I have one acticle in my collection from (I think) Adventist Today -- and my observation of all of you/us. I know that somewhere along the line, I remember reading some kind of information that suggested some kind of numbers... Does any of you know of some more concrete form of documentation to show the growing exodus of SDAs into the truth?? If you have any ideas, I'd be very much helped and blessed if you would share them. God bless you all, Dennis<>< | ||
| Martin_l_kale |
The biggest burden that was lifted when I left the church was that of constant fear. I never felt saved. I was taught in church school that even a sin that you did not know you had committed would damn you. I believed that if I were to do something like swear in anger and then get hit by a car I would go to hell because I had sinned right before death. So for a good part of my childhood and early teen years I would go around praying "God please forgive me for sinning and for any things that I don't remember or didn't realize were sins." Often I would pray this prayer over and over. I'm talking like 100 times a day. It was almost like obsessive compulsive disorder. But I was just so afraid of going to hell. I was never asured of my salvation. I thank God that he showed me the way out of falsehood and into salvation. Take Care, Martin | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Thank you Martin! I can relate to that fear. I've prayed your prayer often, too. I was talking about that very subject with my wife a while back, and she was relating an experience she had which made her 'aware that time was short', and she had that exact reaction. Instead of feeling excited that we are nearer His return, she was always scared because she might have some unconfessed sin that she would get snagged on. She then related that to the WTC tragedy, rejoicing that she no longer has that fear spring into her consciousness now! Freedom from fear is an awesome thing!! Thanks for writing. I don't know if I have seen your posts before -- are you new, or have I not been paying attention? God bless, Dennis<>< | ||
| Lydell |
Welcome Martin! Isn't it a precious thing to be free! I've been thinking alot about Adventists over the past month. You know that they must all be gasping and poking each other and saying, "oh yes, this is IT, you're going to see some bad stuff happen now. It's just what sister white said. Yep. It's going to be terrible, awful, horrible, pack your bags, run for the hills....." Sad sad sad... Had a most surprising thing happen in me over the past month. On one occassion when I saw the tape again of the towers collapsing I was suddenly struck powerfully with the thought "majesty!" Certainly not in keeping with the visual image on the screen! Definitely not like the reaction I had been having of deep sadness and tears for lives lost and lives touched. But what the Lord showed me that day was that the image of those towers collapsing was like a near perfect representation of the essence of pure evil and hatred...of all that satan is. And it is such a glaring visual contrast to all that God is! Perfect love, perfect power, perfect compassion, perfect strength, perfect glory... He IS majesty! Far bigger than all that has happened or will happen. The Sovereign LORD who is in control. It's almost laughable that satan would dare to think that by these acts he can somehow destroy the faith of God's people! Or that he still thinks that he is going to win his battle. I've just really been struck over and over this past month with the contrast between how the truly committed Christian body is reacting to these tragedies as compared to how the sda's are reacting. What a blessing to be free! | ||
| Martin_l_kale |
Actually I found this site a few years back. It's been very helpful in my recovery from the SDA church. I left the church about 11 years ago but it wasn't until I started researching Ellen G. White 2 years ago that I found this site. I've come here often but just recently registered and started contributing. Thanks for noticing, Martin | ||
| Sherry2 |
I prayed that prayer a thousand times too, Martin. That constant fear was such a choker on living life....never sure of salvation, always a bit apprehensive about every new president, every new disaster, with thoughts of "Is this it? Are the Sunday laws coming next?" It's such a different attitude free from that now. Boy the hit by a car and swearing was something we talked about in high school at Great Lakes Adventist Academy all the time! It must be an SDA scenerio that we'd talk about! And isn't it funny how we'd fear hell even though we talked it down by saying it's not a forever thing...we were still scared spitless about it! We've been talking about sharing the Gospel in our Sunday School class. And our friend shared the bridge demonstration with the two chasms and the cross in the center except for he gave us a physical demonstration, not just the board demonstration. That was real impactful when he showed man doing works, rituals, etc., and falling in the chasm, and then he just stood between in the chasm and stretched out his arms...what a cool visual. Jesus did do it all. Sometimes I forget how wonderful that is to know that I'm not depending on my works to help out my salvation in any way. Jesus made the Bridge and all I did was cross over through a personal relationship with Him. And the best thing is the security, realizing if I blow it, I'm not instantly put back on the other side. It's not about me. Religion is spelled DO, Christianity is spelled DONE. Thanks be to Jesus! | ||
| Jtree |
Gee, I surely could use some of the testimony shared here, with those within SDA still. You peoples testimony is moving. I appreciate the honesty in the above testimony's. My spouse also met with this, that her constant study of Scripture led her out and of Adventism. Come share your testimony, I give you the URL: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/seventhdayadventists I have been witnessing to this Yahoo club over 2 years now. The result is 3 people are now former adventist from constant witnessing to this club. --------------- "walk by faith, not by sight. | ||
| Fdauns |
Questions along the line that Dennis originally posted are invariably stemming from the underlying question why are you right and why are we wrong. Attempting to answer this question with an Adventist is usually like trying to nail jello to the wall. That is to say, futile. You wind up using the same words as the one you are talking with but you each are using different definitions for those words. Following is an essay I wrote for my own purpose over lunch many months ago as I was thinking on this topic. I was contemplating the problems I was facing in discussing similar questions from Adventists. I offer it for what it is worth. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The core of Adventism is by definition built on the belief in a conspiracy. The SDA church, by virtue of the divine guidance of its founders and its prophetess, knows "The Truth". All others do not and cannot be trusted. This is a premise to their logic and not a conclusion from logic. All external sources of information that hold or demonstrate things not squarely in line with the founders or the prophetess are therefore false. They are the result of the devil and demonic forces influencing humans to conceal the truth. The reason for this disinformation is to decieve the world and damn their souls. Internally, that is within the ranks of the members, the statement of the prophetess is sufficent to establish "The Truth" of the fact of the conspiracy. Although she is declared not to be equal with the authors of scripture her words define the meaning of scripture. Externally, that is to non-members, other avenues of proof are required. Arguments are built from scripture. To prove that their interpretations have historical validity, and that they are not a recent invention, a variety of historical sources are cited. This is in an attempt to demonstrate "The Truth" through the ages. But the record of history does not generally agree with Adventism. Many historical sources are at odds with the claims they make. Often the same sources they cite contradict their claims. The fact of this is not a deterrent to them. Things that don't prove their point are inventions of the Devil. Attempts to counter their historical assertions with other historical assertions is often met with the declaration that "We can't accept tradition but only scripture." This further compounds the dillemma because apparently the only authentic historical information is that which agrees with them. Ultimately they argue from assertion only. Under the illusion of fact a person can often believe that they have historical truth on their side. This sustains the new convert until "The Truth" becomes established. Then because evidence to the contrary is part of the conspiracy the convert is immune to any and all assaults by logic, evidence or reason. Of course to the above the question is asked by Adventists, "Give me an example to substantiate your claims". It is impossible to substantiate the claims made above because to do so one must first start with any example of any teacher or publication present or past within their ranks. To whatever valid example is given the declaration will be made that the teacher or publication is not the "official" teaching of the church. And you can't judge the entire movement based on the mistaken teaching of a specific person or publication. On its surface this logic is sound and certainly no one can take issue with such an answer hence the matter is resolved. "The Truth" still lives on. But this highlights the deepest irony of "The Truth". Everyone believes it but it is not defined. An entire organization and denomination is built around "The Truth" that Adventism is tasked, in their own minds at least, with presenting to the world. Yet there exists no single official declaration of what "The Truth" is. Even a work such as "The 27 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists" voted into acceptance by the world wide governing body is not official. It was officially voted in as unofficial. "The Truth" is not stated nor defined. Yet within the ranks there is a material, though not 100% uniform, agreement as to what comprises "The Truth". Internally one can certainly speak, teach or write things that are not in line with "The Truth". And one can get into trouble, on a personal or professional level for doing so. But when a critical evaluation from outside is begun then cover is immediately sought behind the statement "Define what it is you are disagreeing with". And of course however you answer you find you have incorrectly defined what adventists believe. You have relied on an unofficial source. Any problematic points, even those common to the entire denomination, are sacrificed as being mere opinions of an incorrect individual. Defining what adventists believe is the saving tarbaby. It is what sheilds them from having to answer objections to clearly false, clearly contradictory, and clearly non-biblical teachings. This is not an intentional attempt to decieve people on their part. Those who do this do not believe they are dishonest, and in fact they are not. This method of logic exists and is used because it is the only one that works. It is the only way of answering objections that are not answerable. Without this mechanism it would be impossible for Adventism to remain. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Fdauns, I completely agree with your conclusions. You've stated the problem very clearly. Adventists have an apparently logical, evangelical apologetic for their beliefs when they talk to the "outside". The problem is that all their logic is built upon a deception, or a false foundation. If a person can perceive the falseness in the foundation, then the entire logical structure comes tumbling down. Until one sees the deception hidden in the darkness of the (usually) unstated foundation, they think Adventism is orthodox. And they feel free to restate their beliefs as many times as they need to to come into line with the Christian community at large. They can do this perpetual redefining because deception is in the core of the foundation. It feels normal. Praise God for the objective truth of His word! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Fdauns, thank you for your essay. You nailed it on the head. The game play. Boy oh boy. It's round circle with them, and yes nailing jello to the wall is most descript. When we used history to show the Sabbath/Sunday differences before Catholism ever was, we were accused of using that as "our Inspiration" like EGWhite. It's amazing how with some you can't discuss it worth a darn. But thank you for stating it so well. | ||
| Dennis |
Well stated, Fdauns. Adventists delight in endless, circular arguments. They love to ignore and restate plain evidence, both Biblical and historical. I have found, that in reaching out to Adventists, the best method is to emphasize that Jesus is not merely important in Christianity, He is our ALL-SUFFICIENT Savior. After Jesus, with His indwelling Spirit to guide us into all truth, who else could we possibly need? In a very real sense, Adventists distrust the Holy Spirit to fully direct their lives, because a Spirit-led life may not include old covenant Sabbath observance, tithing, etc. They prefer to direct the Holy Spirit themselves (as though that was even remotely possible), to tell Him what to do, and what laws to write upon our hearts. The end result is a righteous by sight, not by faith. Praise God for the HIGHER STANDARD of righteousness found in the new covenant of Jesus Christ. Without a clear concept of covenant, how God has dealt with His people throughout history, Adventists cannot fully comphrehend Christology and its related soteriology. Secure in His hand, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point, Dennis! Today I had a discussion with my 10th grade World Lit class. We're studying Pearl Buck's "The Good Earth", and I asked them, relative to the main character's growing self-centeredness as he became wealthy, why people became greedy and self-seeking when they get money. (Obviously not all people do, but this was a discussion-starter!) No one could really explain it; they just knew it happened. I asked them why some people didn't get greedy when they had money. Someone finally ventured, "God?" (This is a Christian school, by the way.) I asked them how God accomplished this phenomenon. No one knew. We finally came to the point where one or two students mentioned the Holy Spirit, and we talked about the new birth. A small number of students in the room understood what I was saying, and the idea of becoming a new creation with a new reality made sense to them. But we made the point that ALL of us naturally become self-serving when given the opportunity. It takes a new identity to be unselfish. The take-home for me was this: it seems that a surprisingly few number of people really understand the role of the Holy Spirit in a Christ-follower's life. As you said above, Dennis, Adventists truly distrust the Holy Spirit. In addition, I think many Christians who DO believe that Jesus is all-sufficient only dimly understand the Spirit-led life. Adventists have the additional obstacle of the teaching of the Latter Rain. They keep looking and praying for the Holy Spirit to come sometime in the future. That's far less "threatening" than the Holy Spirit directing us and changing us now! Praise God for grace! Colleen |
