| Author | Message | ||
| Therese |
Hi Nate,Bob & Gro, Welcome to the Forum! I am on the same road as all of you, just not as far along. I've been a SDA 20 years. Was raised Roman Catholic (schools & all) and joined SDA after attending Mark Finely Daniel & Revelation seminars. Thought I found the true church and was very committed - gave a lot of time and money to it. 10 years ago, after being exposed to Willow Creek Church (I live in Chicago area), I began to question if SDA was God's movement. The contrast with what Willow Creek is doing and what SDA is doing is incredible. I first blew off Willow Creek as a "celebration church" with no real substance. After all they didn't have the "truth". A few years later my husband came down with a catastrophic illness and we needed spiritual, emotional and practical help. SDA has nothing to offer. They do not emphasis "bearing one another's burdens" or "helping the least of the brethern". We turned to Willow Creek and a Willow Creek Association church for help. They had established ministries that helped us very much. This type of non-denominational church is doing a marvelous job in reaching people for Christ through ministries and a simple grace-centered message. After a Willow Creek sermon, I leave feeling God loves me, is on my side, is helping me and I love Him back. This has a transforming effect. After most SDA sermons, I would feel guilty because I wasn't measuring up, hadn't completely surrendered in order to perfect my character, wasn't sacrificing enough to give more money to the cause, afraid I wasn't going to get it together enough to make it through the investigative judgment, mark of beast and be able to stand without a mediator. My view of what was important to God began to changed. I began to understand the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. SDA seems to focus on 3 things - keeping the law (Sabbath observance, dietary, etc.), giving lots of money to the church organization, and recruiting others to keep the law and to give lots of money to the church. SDAs are not emphasizing the things Jesus taught and did. Math 25 describes those that go into the kingdom as those who met the needs of the least of the brethern. Jesus also says that bearing one anothers burdens fulfills the law. I understand the concept of being saved by grace and not works, but I still have a major hang up with keeping the sabbath. I don't want to keep it, but I still think the SDAs may be right on this one. I've read all the rebuttals as to why the sabbath is not binding (Jesus is the sabbath, Jesus gave two new commandments, new covenant, etc.), but I don't have a peace about not keeping it. At this point, with a 17 year old son, it is very difficult to impose it on him. I don't want to do it if it's not required. Can you two Pastors shed any light on this? Nate - I've heard many, many SDA pastors are going to Willow Creek leadership training seminiars. Is that true? Do you see this training changing their theological positions? I know many local SDA lay people that attend Willow Creek services regularly. Once you see the gospel at work there, it is hard to go back from where you came. Perhaps God is using the Willow Creek movement to bring about change in the SDA church and maybe you are part of it. Regards, Therese | ||
| Therese |
Nate, I just saw your post under Sabbath Worries. That is an interesting point you make. The keeping of the sabbath really becomes "anti-christ" because it is our effort to work for our salvation rather than let Christ do it. Is there material I can read further on this? Therese | ||
| Violet |
I struggled with the Sabbath after coming out of Adventism too. When I really sat down and reasoned it through how could I be judged on how I kept a day for my eternal salvation? I could not put grace and Sabbath keeping together. If you want to have a day to spend time with God, good for you, but just don't try and tie it to salvation. I have found that with not taking all the "preperation" time for Sabbath I spread my time with God over all the week. where as before I was preparing for Sabbath and then spent Sabbath at a dead run trying to cram in all the activites my church required I be in, or be considered a slacker. In my old church Sabbath rest was more like Sabbath race day. I think this is the hardest one to give up because it was what made Adventism "special" you were better than others because you knew a "secret" noone else was privy to. I still recieve the Adevntist Review because my subscription does not run out for a few months. I still flip through it and I now see the Sabbath as their god. The one that came yesterday talked about the Sabbath coming into more light, nothing about Jesus coming into more light. SAD SAD SAD :(:(:( | ||
| Dennis |
Dear friends, Oh, how my heart aches for many struggling Seventh-day Adventists! Adventism operates largely as an external, works-oriented religion(i.e., Jewish food laws, cosmetic & jewelry prohibitions, Old Covenant monetary directives, no coffee, tea, or colas, Sabbatarianism, vegetarianism, extrabiblical "inspired" literature, etc.). Sadly, many legalists end up becoming almost tourist attractions. An extraordinary number of elderly, traditional SDAs suffer from severe osteoporosis from a lack of dietary calcium(easily noticeable in the larger SDA communities). Younger SDAs sometimes suffer from Bell's palsy(and other disorders) related to a vitamin B12 deficiency. Consequently and wisely, vitamin B12 is now routinely added to many meat analogs and most soy milk to alleviate these dietary problems. The closest followers of Ellen White are virtual prisioners in their own homes(they refuse to eat out and socialize with friends and family). Their dietary restrictions become so severe and obsessive, that their friends and relatives delete them from their social calendars. Unfortunately, those most faithful to the Counsels on Diet and Foods, soon discover that there really isn't much left that one can place on the table. There is a subtle treadmill progression toward perfectionism that is never attained. While agreeing that we cannot eat our way into heaven, they nevertheless fear that they may somehow eat their way out of it. The constant fear of not being saved is exhausting and detrimental to spiritual growth. Adventism engulfs the whole being. Many do not realize the enslavement they are under. Still others come to the point in their lives when they actually like their brand of legalism. There is not such a thing as a "lone ranger" Christian, we need fellowship and support with each other. We greatly enjoy our new church family at First Evangelical Free Church. My wife and I have an active part in the adult Sunday School and worship ministries. There are many other Christian churches that former Adventists can appreciate as their church home. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Boy do I hear you on the diet stuff, Dennis. I worried about it lots. Didn't always abide by everything, but felt guilty all the time. Sometimes would go through a rampage and throw out chocolate, anything refined, be totally vegetarian, and vegan if I could do that...and then find myself within weeks slipping back to "old habits". I'd make my friends feel like crap if they were SDA and touched caffeine...it was a heaven or hell issue you know, cuz once you know a truth, you'd better obey or lose salvation. Just a month ago, a girlfriend and I went to a Women's Expo. They had a bone density test to see if you were at risk for osteoporosis. Anything less then 0 was at risk, anything above was doing well, and ofcourse the higher the better. I was .6. That's pretty close to the negative side, and I'm only 30. My girlfriend who ofcourse is an avid milk drinker was 2.5 and she's 40 something. Gosh, did that put me to shame for all those years I thought my diet was so superior! I just cannot express enough my gratitude for God's gracious leading me out of that church. I am so thankful. It was killing me on the inside with the constant guilt and never measuring up. Nate, and other newcomers, I am so glad you are here and sharing your stories. My prayers are with you and your situation, Nate. My folks work for the conference in MI as literature evangelists. Ofcourse they've done the drug prevention end of things with LISTEN so it wasn't doctrinal material. Well they left the church this year too, but for now are maintaining their job as long as the conference allows. I'm not sure how long that will be, but my dad loves lecturing in the schools and helping kids with these type of problems. They've been told they are part of Babylon now and they've been told by a LE that having them allowed to work for the conference still is like having the Russians work for the US (Cold War era meaning)...and my dad asked what he meant exactly." Well it's like having enemy spies in the camp" was the reply. You are up against a hard spot. Keep praying, and we will too. Blessings. | ||
| Sherry2 |
I'm going to add some more. I was reading Ephesians this morning for worship and I was struck by Ch. 1:17-23. This is a prayer for revelation. It's a prayer we can pray for ourselves as well as our SDA brothers and sisters. "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to yo the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the gory of His inheritance of the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." | ||
| Nate |
Therese, I don't know if you have read Dale Ratzlaff's book called the Sabbath in Chrisis, but if you have not, it is a must read. You can get it through www.ratzlaf.com. Also you might contact Clay Peck at Clay@graceplace.org and ask him to send you a copy of his paper "Is Sabbath Observance Required for New Covenant Christians?" There is nothing wrong with observing a Sabbath as a spiritual discipline. As long as it does not become an issue for judgement of others, or one in which you are judged. The problem with Adventism is, that the system lays a guilt trip on its members and on anyone on the outside that dows not agree. Sabbath becomes the cosmic non negotiable by which the loyalty of all people is judged. This is totally unbiblical. May God bless you on your journey! Sherry2 and others, thank you for your prayers! It is so good to know that God isw in this process, and while it is painful, the Truth truly does set us free! God bless, In christ, Nate | ||
| Doug222 |
I cannot begin to tell everyone how impressed I am with what I am seeing on this forum. Instead of debating scriptural points-of-views, people here are actually being vulnerable with one another about their concerns and weaknesses. In return, instead of beating them over the head with scripture, others are providing loving support. This would NEVER happen in Adventism. This is what God has called us to do. What is particularly helpful to me is seeing others who are in the same boat that I am. It is helpful hearing the stories of others who have walked or are walking the same paths that I am. Nate, I can relate to where you are at. I am an elder in a local SDA Church and find myself at the crossroads. Do I step out, or can God use me to change the system. I realize that this is a futile effort, but that with God all things are possible. Everytime I get the opportunity, I turn discussions toward God's amazing grace. For the last several months, I have been attending a non-denominational church on Sundays. The message of grace that is taught there is so unbelievable. There is an attitude of acceptance of people where they are at. Adventist would say this is a condoning of sin, but what I see is a realization that people are at different levels in their spiritual journies. It is the job of the Spirit to change people, not the church. What they do do is have an equipping ministry that helps members become "transformed Christians." This is the thing that I find missing in Adventism. We give new members this long list of do's and don'ts, then we don't lift a finger to help them grow in their relationship with God. Is it any wonder we lose so many new members. I was just reading Luke 11-13 for my devotions this morning. I see so many parallels between the Pharisees and their attitudes and that of Adventism. Jesus' philosophy was directly opposed to that. Their focus was on the observance of the law (like Adventists). Jesus' focus was on freeing people from the bondage of sin. COrrect me if I am wrong, but he never condemmed anyone for their sins, but the Pharisees. Now, isn't that interesting. Anyway, I am rambling. I just wanted to say that I can truly see the Spirit moving on this forum, and I just want to let each of you know how you have blessed me. Thank you. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Nate |
Doug, Thanks for sharing. Right now this is my outlet to be able to talk about some of these issues. My wife and I talk a good bit. She is pretty much where I am. We have some friends scattered across the country that are in the same situation as well. Most of them are pastors too. It seems that God has led us to this point all about the same time. The problem is that we are all in transition, We don't know what to do. We have hearts of compassion for those caught in the same trap we were caught in. We have a responsibility to nurture those in our trust, at the same time, how do we go about changing the system. I am leaning toward the leaving option, because inside the system so little honest bible study and sharing can take place without ruining our credibility to bring about change. This is not a free and open system to dialogue. Most discussion like this takes place behind closed doors. That in itself says something about the system. It is a clear sign of dysfunction. Really all we can do is what you described, and that is keep pointing people to Jesus. I definitely do not teach anything I do not believe. It gets a little difficult at times to walk the fine line. So I am praying that if God wants me to step out He will make it plain. At that point, I would be free to share the reasons for my leaving and be ethical in doing so. I too visit churches in our area. It is so refreshing to just go and worship without having to sort through the baggage. God is truly working in so many churches right now. It sounds like you have found a great church to nurture your own soul. I could not agree more. You said that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to change hearts. This is onw of the key problems in the SDA system is that it tries to play Holy Spirit. This was the problem with the Pharisees as you mentioned. They laid heavy burdens on people... instead of letting the Spirit lay the burden on them in His own wisdom at the right time for the individual, under grace. Where is your pastor on these issues? I have one elder who is truly open. He is a "fix the system" kind of guy, but we have been able to talk somewhat openly. Not so with some of the others. A couple of our other elders got some questions about my theology because of some things I said about Sabbath being a good spiritual discipline. I had said that I did not think we should make it a judgement issue for other Christians based on Rom 14. They were pretty upset. I think things are cooled down for now, but I definitely know that this church is not ready for where I am in my walk with the Lord. These are frightening times on the one hand but freeing on the other. It is good to know that there is another brother out there going through the same struggle. Thanks for your prayers and concerns. I will keep you in prayer. A big thanks to all of you on the forum for your shating and prayers. You are in my prayers, too! God bless, In chirst, Nate | ||
| Sherry2 |
It may be that things should be opened up by pastors that feel this way, and preach in the "Synogague" as it were until they kick you out. What a switch that would be to have pastors who are learning these things to unite together in prayer, and start preaching what they've been learning through the grace of God, so that others who are struggling can find hope (there may be those who would never approach you with their doubts about sdaism out of fear but you openly preaching these things one bit at a time may save them years of pain), and let the conference kick you out just as Paul continued preaching in that situation. I don't know...all I know is that I would think it would be awesome to see this happen. God's blessing. | ||
| Bob |
Nate: I would like to correspond with you in greater depth than may be appropriate for this public forum. I am a member and co-moderator of the Redlands, CA chapter of Former Adventist Fellowship, so I see this Forum's moderators, my good friends Richard and Colleen, on a weekly basis. I will give Richard my permission to privately share with you my home email address if you wish to correspond directly. I understand your need to maintain privacy, so feel free to continue using an "anonymous" email address when you write to me. I am no longer SDA - they can't do anything to me, but your employment is at stake! | ||
| Nate |
Bob, Yes I would welcome that. If you could have Richard or Colleen give me the contact information through my e-mail address in the forum files, I would gladly contact you. Or if they wish to give mine to you that would be fine... either way. I welcome the opportunity to learn from those who have been this path before me. Nate... Sherry2, I am considering your suggestion. I have been praying about this for a long time. If I come to the point that I believe that is His call for me, I will do it. right now I still do not have clarity on it. When I shared a few things with some of our elders, one of them was somewhat open, and the two were quite closed. My issue is that I do not want to damage the church if it is not time for them yet. The timing was not right for me at one point in my journey. When this issue first came to the forefront, I was angry at those who were teaching it. This church (the place I serve now) has made great progress over the last few years. Because of this, it has it's share of naysayers. I do not want to hurt the progress or give unecessary ammo to the critics, unless I am sure it is God's plan. I appreciate your prayers and wisdom. In some ways I would welcome the chance to teach on this because it is burning in my soul. I have a teaching gift and it is chaffing at the bit. The other side would be the financial side if I got fired. The severance package would surely help. If I took a leave of absense, I would get nothing. The one thing that is reassuring is that Jeus , my Sabbath rest, has promised to make His way clear. He has brought me to this truth and He will make it clear what the next step will be. I will definitely put your suggestion into the prayer mix. Thanx. God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Therese |
Nate, Thanks for the info. I know about the "Sabbath In Crisis" book, but had not heard of Clay Peck's paper. I will try to get it. Just yesterday, a friend of mine (current SDA, but has attended Willow for 11 years - has a foot in both camps) was at the Willow Creek leadership training and saw some very prominent SDA leaders there. She spoke with them and asked why SDA have not embraced the Willow style of church and outreach. Although they defended SDA position, they admitted SDA has need for change. They blamed a lot of SDA ineptitude on lack of money from the local churches to do programs. Sounded to me like passing of the buck. SDA leadership seem to be very intrigued with what Willow is doing. A young SDA couple I know who were very active in a large SDA church began an alternative contemporary worship service with much success. The SDA pastor supported them, but they had resistence from some church members. They continued doing it for several years. It was a good outreach for young people. This couple, however, has quit SDA and are now on the staff at Willow. They told me that most SDA young people their age do not believe in EGW, feel the Sabbath is not a condition for salvation and disagee with other SDA doctrines. They have had a similar experience as you in discovering other SDA contemporaries around the country coming into the same theological thinking as they have about SDA doctrines. They believe large numbers of SDA people are beginning to embrace "grace" and see the errors in SDA. Perhaps God is trying to turn the direction of the SDA church with a grass roots movement. There are many local SDA people going to Willow. The Worldwide Church of God recently made a move out of legalism and no longer require Sabbath observance,etc. You can read about it at their web site www.wcg.org, under their history section. Nate, you are in a tight spot. God will direct you in what you need to do. You can work from the inside the SDA organization, but you can also work from outside too. I'm sure you have many SDA contacts you can continue to influence if you decide to leave. God bless. I'm praying for you and your family. Therese | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Nate, I tend to drift in and out of this forum, so I am not very up-to-date on who you are or the progression of events in your life. But, it seems the Lord is doing a tremendous work in your life right now! I can guess that this is a tremendously difficult time for you. I cannot imagine being faced with the decisions you have on your plate right now! (Though I have tried! I have been non-SDA for about 2 1/2 years now, and only within the past year have acknowledged a calling to ministry -- which I had been fighting for several years. I have often contemplated how different things would be for me if I had "accepted" that calling before leaving Adventism.) Interestingly, there have been five Adventist pastors who have had a significant impact on my life over the years -- wedding, two baptisms, and some serious, grace-oriented Bible study, etc -- and of these five, only one is still an SDA minister. I am right now faced with a very challenging situation which I wonder if you might find time to lend me your thoughts on. The one remaining Adventist minister (and his wife) on the above list are dear friends, though we have been separated by large distances for several years now. Recent conversation has brought us to the point where I feel we will be required quite soon to reveal the fact that we are not "in the church" any longer. (The years of separation have caused the topic not to come up before.) This revelation feels very risky for me -- both because they are precious friends whom I do not wish to alienate, and because I have an inkling of the responsibility -- if he "gets it" -- which will fall upon his shoulders. (He pastors a university church.) I have been wishing there was someone who I could discuss this with who was in a position to understand the ramifications of the situation. I know that we do not know each other, but if you have some time, I would love to hear your input. (Of the former SDA pastors I mentioned above, the only other who would be in an position of understanding about this situation, went home to be with the Lord last year.) Somewhat as Bob mentioned above, both for your privacy, and for that of our friend, this discussion falls outside the scope of this forum. If you are too busy, I certainly understand. But if you care to take the time to visit with me, my e-mail is DenRainwater@wwdb.org Thank you in advance, Dennis R. <>< | ||
| Dale |
It has been sometime since I have logged on; I do check in quite often and thank all of you for your support during my "recovery" period from Adventism. I have been experiencing Freedom in Christ since February, 2000 and am much better now, thank you. As to a church home, I feel so blessed because of Grace Place in Berthoud, Colorado. Although my wife and I drive close to 150 miles round-trip each Sunday, we cannot wait to get on the road!! Those of you who are aware of Grace Place know that it was started as an SDA outreach within the Rocky Mtn Conference, by Senior Pastor Clay Peck who had come from Damasus Road. The true gospel could not be understood by those with a veil, and before too long, the "remnant" church disavowed Grace Place, revoked Clay's ministerial credentials and probably thought that would be the end. Praise God it was not!! Grace Place continued on as a non-denominational church and I would like to share with you a portion of Clay's letter last week on the growth of Grace Place as a fantastic testimony to the Holy Spirit: New Growth (by Clay Peck) I want to welcome all the new folks to this mailing list who have signed on during the last couple months. Our worship attendance at Grace Place has increased rapidly over the last year - and especially during the last few months. Here's what has happened with average attendance: Summer (2000) - 187 Fall - 218 January (2001) - 252 February - 263 March - 312 April - 416 May - 467 What an awesome God we serve! This week, Clay is flying to England at the invitation of an SDA Military Chaplain who has been in intense discussions with Clay and wants him to come and present how the Lord has led him. Please pray for those who hear his testimony on the other side of the pond. If any of you are in Colorado, please stop by Grace Place. It is a tribute to the Lord of heaven and earth! You can also visit the website at: www.graceplace.org Free in Him, Dale | ||
| Colleentinker |
I don't remember if it was in the summer of '97 or '98, but we visited Grace Place one Saturday when they still met that day and were sharing a church building with a Sunday church. Clay wasn't there that day, but I had talked with him by phone several times because I had interviewed him about his experiences for an article in Adventist Today. Our whole family was overwhelmed by the presence of God and by the warmth of that fellowship. His wife told me that Clay had given his six-part series on New Covenenant Christians the previous February, and they had lost about half of their regular attendees. God has really blessed Grace Place, and I do praise him for being faithful to Clay and his family and the whole congregation. Your are so fortunate, Dale, to be able to drive there! We will pray for Clay as he talks to this chaplain. Praising God for his goodness, Colleen | ||
| Dan_anderson |
I studied my way out of Adventism. As I became old enough to think for myself and strong enough to assert my beliefs (at Walla Walla College) I could see I would have to leave my church of heratage. I could never accept the story of the flood even as a young kid. God is Love- God is changeless- these were truths I accepted, but for a vengefull God to destroy the freewill creatures of His own creation was just too much for me to believe. What is the point of creating freewill creatures if you are going to kill them if they do not follow your will? I have found a wonderfull chuch in Fairbanks Alaska. My wife and I chuch shopped for about a year and picked one based on positive sermons, beautiful music, and a good youth program for our kids. It happened to be a First United Methodist church. This particular one is liberal and intellectual. I found out (to my delight) while studying to join the church that Methodist churches have no creed! I can have my goofy ideas and even discuss them without being scourned-in fact people come to me after Sunday school and thank me for saying what they have wondered about. I had an interesting discusion with an Adventist minister (I still have lots of Adventist friends and contacts) about my church with no creed-He said "Well then you can believe what ever you want to! Isn't that a cop-out?" I said that I thought it made it more difficult not easier because I am responsible for my own spiritual progress and have to decide for myself how to proceed. My family has found the Methodist church to be a wonderfull foundation and social structure for assisting us to advance our spiritual growth. For those of you who are church shopping be sure and check em out. John 8-32 In fellowship, Dan Anderson | ||
| Doug222 |
Dan, Attending a church without a creed is indeed a liberating act. It is also frightening when you're used to having everything provided to you in a neat little package--especially the first time you come across a situation where you don't have a pat answer. I'm curious though. If you do not accept the idea of the flood, how do you reconcile the Biblical account in the book of Genesis? In His Grace Doug | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Dan, Like Doug, I too would like some clarification on your stance about the Flood. That isn't the only time when God punished people for sinning. The Egyptian plagues, Gehazi's leprosy, 42 kids mauled by she-bears, just to name a few. Whatever His reasons are, it's pretty clear that He will punish people for abusing their freewill. What do you do with all these accounts? Just curious. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Welcome, Dan! The freedom we find when we find Christ is amazing. I echo the above questions--by the way, Richard found a book advertised on the internet about five years ago called When The Earth Nearly Died. It's published in the United Kingdom and written by two non-Christian scientists, a geologist and one other who is more of a social scientist such as anthropology or something like that, but I can't remember their names right now because I've loaned it out! These two men have written a textbook-like volume showing their support, including photographs, satellite images, and ancient documents to suggest that a flood DID occur about 11,150 BC. It's fascinating, really, and quite compelling. It describes the events and causes differently than we normally think of them, but if any of you ever get a chance, I think you'll find it a fascinating read. Praising God for freedom and grace, Colleen |
