| Author |
Message |
Sabra
| | Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 7:45 am: |     |
Brian,
I really like your letter. It was very honest and I know you did the right thing. You spoke of not being able to belong to "the club" if you have differing opinions. In Adventism this is true, however, there are wonderful, Christ-centered chyrches who don't feel that way. At our church, if you understand the birth, death and ressurection and have accepted Jesus into your heart and been baptized by submersion, those are the only requirements formembership. If you don't understand or believe in the other doctrines such as the rapture, you are free to let the Holy Spirit guide you in your beliefs. That is the way it should be. Unfortunately, if you are under the false and arrogant assumption that yours is the only "true church" this can't be possible. There are other denominations much like Adventist who believe they are the only ones going to heaven, even some who appear to be quite mainstream. I found this out by my own search and steered clear of that! I believe the Body of Christ, which is the true church is made up of believers of many different faiths, this is biblical, unity of brothers. Well, I know this is very hard and I am glad that your wife has agreed to study with an open mind. God can not reveal anything to a closed mind! Trust in the Lord, lead not into your own understanding and He will direct your path!
Sabra |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 9:42 am: | |
Brian, I'd like to support you also in this time of transition. I have read your story, and I understand how you have analyzed and how you have needed to have things "make sense". I applaud that. Following the Spirit is such an exercise in letting go of control! God has brought you to a place where you can grow in him free of the subliminal influence of the twistedness of Adventism. Even though we don't believe it or practice it personally, when we are around it, it influences us, even if only to make us feel heavy or depressed. I am praying that God will protect your heart and mind and that he will bring you to that "valley of love and delight" (words from the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts") that was his amazing provision for me when I struggled with the details of leaving.
God will place you with believers who can strengthen and enfold your wife and you. He is so faithful!
Colleen |
Brianglass
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 8:33 am: | |
While in principle I agree with what you folks are saying, in practice it is more difficult for the following reasons.
There are a couple of SDA families with whom we have remained strong friends. In fact, these families have been a tremendous support to us. These families have been so turned off by what happened at this church that they have begun attending at Toledo. While I certainly don't advocate the SDA message, I do find it very difficult to leave these people behind.
In addition, I don't want to play the part that many SDAs have played in my life. I don't want to force my beliefs upon my wife and insist that I am correct. I want her to make her own decisions based upon her study and relationship with Christ. For this reason, if she would like to attend an SDA church I will make that compromise with her. She has been extremely cooperative with me in my desire to attend a non-SDA church (which we do every Sunday) and I want to return the favor. We are becoming more and more involved in our non-SDA church, but we need to take things one step at a time.
As for wasting a lot of time, I would have to respectfully disagree with you Lydell. So often we have the tendancy to rush things to get to the goal that we believe we need to reach. What we don't realize is that often the process of getting to the goal is just as important as the goal itself. Not only that, but often the goal we reach is only a stopping point on the way to another goal. Life is a learning process that God guides us through and each step is important. While you may have "wasted" a lot of time checking out SDA churchs, you probably learned some valuble lessons in that process - as will we.
So, while I would love to take Lydell's advice and completely sever all participation in SDA churches, I will probably not be doing that in the immediate future.
Thank you all for your input. I truly appreciate it! It's nice to have a place I can turn to for support.
Now, what I could really use is some advice on how to broach this subject with my conference worker parents... Yikes! |
Sabra
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
I think it is very supportive of you to consider your wife's feelings and likewise for her. As far as your parents go, my mom could not be more -disapointed, for lack of a better word, but, since she sees that I am following what I truly believe and that I didn't leave because I wanted a easier route to follow, but because I truly believe it is not truth and my desire to follow truth must override my desire to follow my mother. She states that she knows my convictions are sincere and that God knows my heart. She sees the difference in my life. You just have to be honest and let it go from there. Also pray A LOT!! I trust the Holy Spirit will give you comfort and strength. :) |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 4:53 pm: | |
Brian,
I visited your website and read your testimony and letter to the church. You have quite an interesting site there. I enjoyed going over the genealogy data. I also appreciated some of your health findings.
You have had some interesting experiences on your journey. Thanks for sharing. Now Brian, from reading your story, I find you to be articulate, logical, tenacious, honest, and relentless in pursuit of truth. It is hard for me to imagine you are jittery and at a lost as to how to broach the subject with your parents.
Did they know where you were spiritually? Did they have any idea how much you struggled internally trying to make sense of the whole thing? Will your parent lose their job or status in the conference because of your decision?
Your letter to the church seems like a pretty good starting place.
I think your parents will welcome and rejoice with you over the idea that you are so centered on Christ. I think they will appreciate and commend you for walking with your wife as you allow her to search for herself.
"Be anxious about nothing but in every thing with prayer and petition let your petition be made know to God."
Blessing to you. |
In_his_service
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 5:50 pm: | |
Brian,
I think I know what you are talking about with your parents. Mine were the same as yours, dedicated to the SDA Church, heart and soul. My entire family, some of whom you know in the Adrian area, are all SDA. You are right they probably will not understand. Initially, they will most likely not be willing to hear what you have to say. There will be anger and tears and real thoughts of personal rejection. They will be concerned for your soul and your salvation. It took my Mom a long time to realize that I had a real and genuine walk with Jesus. I praise Him that she came to that realization just a few short months before her death. My Father died when I was a kid in Academy, but I really believe that my Step Father really learned the Gospel and developed a real relationship with Jesus, shortly before he died, a year after my Mom.
It was Jesus who said that he would put "Mother against daughter and father against son". He knows your heart and has promised to never leave us or forsake us. He promised that all things would work for good, to those who love Him and are called to His purpose.
How do you "tell them" in an easy way? There isn't one. You will have to demonstrate to them, as you are to your wife, a Christ centered and Spirit filled life. It will take time and patience. It will take a great deal of prayer and probably a lot of time. Let Jesus lead you in this, as well in all of the rest of your life. Keep your eyes only on HIM and never let ANYONE take Him away from you!
I pray for courage for you, and for understanding and enlightenment for your parents.
In His Grip
Thomas
<>< |
Sabra
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 7:55 pm: | |
BMorgan
I think your view is very optimistic but, honestly, I can't say Brian's parents will rejoice or welcome his decision. In the world outside of Adventism parents are thrilled to see their children turn to Jesus, in the presence of the veil, however, they only see one leaving the "truth". The word cult is a very strong word but unfortunately, it is indeed just that, and while we would love for them to see that, they wont until they are able to put aside their own understanding and turn to Jesus to direct their path. |
Snowdove
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 7:39 pm: | |
hi Brian:
The only advise I can give you about how to tell your parents is:
The Day you tell them before you tell them.
1. Praise and thank God for the truth that He has given you.
2. Pray for the Holy Spirit to be present with you when you tell them. To give you the wisdom & strength to do His will and express what He wants you to.
3. Pray that the Holy Spirit open thier eyes to your relationship with Jesus.
4. And Bind all evil that can/will cause interference in the name of our Lord Jesus.
5. Praise His Holy Name and Thank Him for answering your prayer. And hold tight to your faith that the Lord will never leave you.
And when you get together to talk with them..
Say a prayer together with them inviting the presence of the Holy Spirit.
I hope this help for it has always helped me.
May the Spirit of the Lord Guide you always.
Your Sister in Christ
Snow Dove |
Brianglass
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 7:31 am: | |
Well, my father talked to my wife on the phone this morning. Seems she filled him in on recent events. I guess he got on my website and read my testimony and is looking for all sorts of places to lay the blame. I'll be talking with them this weekend.
What I am not looking forward to is that my dad mentioned something about have a person from the White Estate come and talk to me. This is not something I am looking forward to at all (if it happens). I understand that I am also slated to read a slew of books on various topics including the sanctuary.
I think things would have been better if I could have kept them under the rug... ;)
brian@glassbrian.com |
Dennisrainwater
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 10:18 am: | |
Hi Brian,
I can relate to your 'jitters'. When I tendered my letter of membership resignation, our pastor called requesting a chance to 'visit'. I agreed, on the terms that it would not become a session of his trying to convince me I was wrong. I told him that I had studied the matter long and carefully enough (twenty hours a week for a solid year!) to be sure of my conclusions. But, if he felt a need to get together in order to understand why we were leaving, I could understand that... But again, please don't try to "talk me out of my convictions". Well, that was a condition he didn't just break -- he shattered it!
So that we could be on the same page, and actually have something of value to discuss when we got together, I shared with him a paper I had written for the purpose of explaining our reasons for leaving to friends and family members... In this paper, I had quoted Mark Martin (a former SDA pastor now pastoring a 5,000 member or so Calvary Chapel in Phoenix who hosts the " Seventh-day Adventism: What you should know" web site) on a few items regarding Ellen White.
This all seemed fine until I learned that the Pastor had turned my paper over to the head Elder of the church -- who had been a theology professor for years at PUC! And it so happened that Mark Martin had this professor during while he was at PUC... Coupled with the fact that I had heard this Elder and Pastor Martin had gone head to head a few times over issues of grace vs. law, the idea of my pastor calling in the aid of a 'theology professor' (regardless of who he had taught) made me tremble!!
Yes, I was sure of what I had discovered, but this was the "Big Guns" -- and 'little peon me' wasn't so sure I was ready for that kind of debate. Have you ever listened in on an argument -- maybe a lawyer in trial -- where the argument is presented so well that, while you know that the guy doesn't really have the truth on his side, the argument is made so well that it seems impossible to counter effectively? That was exactly what I was afraid might happen in my "interview" with the pastor -- now that he'd called in this 'high-power-attorney', so to speak...
So, what happened to me? Our pastor met with my wife and me -- alone. And proceeded to spend two hours in a heart-wrenching sales-job -- trying his best to convince us that we are still in bondage to the law, and that if we didn't go to church on Sabbath, we would eventually be lost.
What became of the "Big Gun"? That was total confirmation to me -- not only was he not present, but the only comment he had to pass along through the pastor was that he didn't agree with my findings... Duh! ;-)
I hope you may have a similar experience -- but in any event, remember: "Greater is He that is in you!"
I'm sure there will be many of us here at FAF lifting you up in prayer over this weekend. I know how traumatic the whole thing can be! God bless you as you defend the real Truth!
Confident only in HIM,
Dennis<>< |
Doug222
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 11:08 am: | |
Brian,
I had very similar experiences as Dennis. After, I advised the Pastor of my decision, he asked to visit with me. Like Dennis, I had some aprehension too. At the meeting, he mostly listened, but he also did attempt to convince me that I was making the wrong decision and recommened I read EGW thoroughly before I made any rash decision. His main point of argument was the Sabbath. A week later, I got a call from the Head Elder asking if he could come over and visit with me. He brought a DVD presentation that was produced by "It is Written," which extolled the perpetuity of the law--once again the focus was on the Sabbath. The main point for both the Pastor and the Elders was that I should continue to attend the SDA Church, even if I did not assume any leadership positions--kind of an insurance policy (my words not theirs).
The Elders'presentation was full of proof texts, some of which I clearly saw because I had studied them recently, others I wasn't sure of, but know that the position that was being taken is not consistent with scripture. Just as Dennis received confirmation, the Holy Spirit confirmed my actions as well. The next day, I went back to my Bible to look at some of the texts they mentioned. Romans 2:13 was one in particular. When I read these texts in context, I realized they said 180 degrees opposite of what the presentation espoused on the previous evening. For me, this was confirmation that God is leading me and I am not leaning to my own understanding.
After my discovery, I wanted to share my findings with anyone. I found that there were not too many people who I could share them with. I realized then why SDAism is so deceptive. Most Christians are not very well versed in their Bibles (nor do they have a strong desire to be). For the most part, they take in what they have been taught, but do not investigate for themselves. When, a group like the SDA's come in with text after text supporting a particular point, it is overwhelming. The listener assumes, all these texts cannot possibly be wrong and relents without ever checking them out for themselves. I am not pointing the finger, because I realize that is what I have done for most of my life. I knew a lot about what I had been taught, but I had not really "studied" for myself.
My suggestion to you is to take the same approach that Dennis took with his Pastor. Be willing to explain the reason for your decision, but do not get dragged into a debate or allow them to berate you about your decision.
Something that you said that disturbed me was, "I am also slated to read a slew of books on various topics, incuding the sanctuary." The thought that came to my mind was, "why?" One of the gifts that God gives each of us is the power of choice. You have a right to make decisions that affect you and your family--even if others do not agree. I have struggled with this point all of my life. Because of that, it made my decision to leave extremely difficult. However, exercising that option has meant freedom beyond my wildest imagination. I now know what John meant when he said "perfect love casts out all fear." Yes they will be angry and upset, but those are their issues not yours. Others will say that you are going to be lost and will receive the Mark of the Beast. Those are their issues not yours. These are all attempts at control--something SDA's (including all of us) are very good at.
May I recommend the book "Boundaries," by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.
May God bless you, and DON'T LET ANYONE BURDERN YOU AGAIN BY A YOKE OF SALVERY.
Thoroughly entrenched in His Grace
Doug |
Sabra
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 11:13 am: | |
Brian,
I feel for you, when the SDA pastor came here to talk to me, it was a two hour discussion also. Instead of telling him he was wrong and I was right, I just shared my own experience. He assumed that I felt Sunday was the Sabbath and compared it to my husband celebrating my birthday a day late. I told him that the Sabbath was not changed, that I did not believe that, but that it was fulfilled to a much bigger purpose. I explained how in Adventism I tried to put my secular life on hold for 24 hours a week, but with the relationship I was able to build with God through hours of study and prayer, everyday was pretty much the same for me and if we strive everyday to do God's will and do all to the glory of God, how could any day be different than the next? A jewish man who had converted to christianity explained that the 10 commandments were an outward sign of obedience. If you were caught committing adultery or breaking any other commandment, you were publicly stoned to death. The new covenant deals with the heart and soul. While they did not have the Holy Spirit living in them to convict them of wrong, we do, therefore we are not mandated to outward, physical obedience, but spiritual growth. With the new covenant if we even THINK of adultery we are sinning. God deals with the heart. The 7th day Sabbath was a temporary institution that came as a result of sin because of separation of man to God. With the cross we are no longer separated and therefore the physical rest became our spiritual rest-Jesus. I was able to show the pastor that I have a meaningful, growing relationship with my Heavenly Father that I did not have before and he seemed to be spinning a lot of wheels and said he wanted to study and get back with me. It has been about 4 months and I don't know if he is still studying or what but he has not contacted me again except to send me a very nice Christmas card. Evidently, he is no longer concerned about my salvation. One thing I did tell him before he came was that I would only listen to Bible discussion and that I had no interest in hearing about anything Ellen White had to say. This helped a lot. Galatians is a very strong book. He told me Paul was tired and persecuted and gave excuses for the book. I told him the Bible was inspired in it's entirity and we must accept all that it says or scrap the whole thing. The Lord will give you confidence and lead you in saying the right things. Don't think you are going to change anyone's mind, just stand fast on your own convictions and don't seem uncertain. Your confidence is something Adventists don't have and it sort of takes them back! I will certainly be praying for you. I have confidence you will be fine!
May the Spirit annoint you with all wisdom,
Sabra |
Lucias
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 11:19 am: | |
Brian it isn't easy to deal with the family on this topic. There is no silver bullet. And the long term pain that will ensue is, unfortunately, the reality. It is one of the side-effects of teaching a bunch of folks a lot of false and incoherent stuff and then convincing them that anyone who doesn't agree with it cannot be trusted and should not be listened to.
You mentioned being asked to read a bunch of books including on one the "Sanctuary Doctrine".
Perhaps no other doctrine so completely illustrates the entire problem.
That Wm Miller taught a definite time for the Lord's coming, even down to a day, is a fact. That doing this is entirely contrary to what Christ told us from the Mt. of Olives while on Earth is a fact.
Yet this clearly counter scriptural, and heretical IMHO, teaching of Wm Miller serves as the basis for the entire SDA Movement. All other distinctives were added later. It is this that gave the group identity and continues to be so integrated into itself that it is immovable.
Now the party line is "He was right about when but not about what". But the SDA's taught, Ellen prophesied, and they continue to teach that those who followed Miller were, although mistaken and completely counter to scripture, sincere and led by God. Those who rejected Wm Millers teaching, although correct about scripture, were not led by God but rather by the Devil.
The entire rest of the sanctuary doctrine is nothing more than an attempt to get out from underneath that fact.
And then when you read the "Day Star Extra" which was written by Crosier, which Ellen "was shown" by God to be the truth on the matter, we see Crosiers arguing that the day of atonement, what they claim was mirrored in heaven in 1844, could not have happened at the cross because if it had happened at the cross there would not have been any forgiveness or Salvation after that event. Hence there was not any forgiveness after 1844. And you can't get out from under that by claiming Ellen was uneducated or didn't know everything yet because "I was shown" by God that this was truth.
The trick of claiming all the "good" parts of 1844 ( ie. stressing the nearness of God's coming something that was NOT unique to miller ) while distancing themselves from all the unarguable positions by pointing out Miller was NOT an Adventist, and then insisting that those who didn't follow his incorrect position were incorrect is enough to require me to go take another Tylenonl.
There is no rationale way to justify this. And frankly anyone, no matter how "educated", will be hard pressed to make any headway on this matter as long as you keep bringing them back to the core issue and not letting them redefine the questions.
Ditto for Ellen.
She stole every last word she ever spoke. She stole her first Vision from Foy ( or was it Foss ) who was so aggrevated by that fact he lept up in the middle of the meeting to declare that what she was saying was what he had already said. He got mad and left and was never seen again with her.
Her plagarism was NOT the result of a "uneducated woman not knowing about footnotes". It was the result of a willfull and intentional intent to decieve, to take the works of others and pass them off as her own. It was used to wield power over any who would fall for the lie. It was used for personal gain and extravagance.
Having to argue with anyone, even an Estate person, on this point would seem to me to be like shooting fish in a barrel.
The only way to get out from under the truth of these things is to redefine the question, change the topic, answer part of the question, but not the core question.
There is a reason SDA's do not welcome public debate on a point but instead prefer to "spread the message" in orchestrated, scripted, presentations. Because you just can't pull it off under any amount of scrutiny.
Thats my thought. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 3:34 pm: | |
Brian, of course we'll pray for you this weekend. I agree with Doug--you don't have to read those books! Lucias above stated well the problems of the party-line representatives, too. You don't have to have any conversations you don't wish to have.
The Holy Spirit will give you wisdom and words and authority and love, and your parents' reactions may be favorable or unfavorable. Either way, God will keep you confident and at peace, because he is your center and your great reward. Your parents may well be furious and hurt and spiteful, and they may even be that way for a long time. But God wants to save them and your wife from the deception of Adventism, and this coming into the open is an oppportunity from God. Even if you see nothing but trouble right now, God is at work. And God himself is faithful to fill the void in our hearts that we all long for our parents to fill. In fact, he is the only one who can fill it.
Just KNOW that the Holy Spirit will give you your words, and he will give you calmness and focus. Jesus will reveal himself to you in new and deeper personal ways as you walk into the light and speak for him as the opportunities come. This talk with your parents is one of those opportunities.
You will be in our prayers.
Colleen |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 7:30 pm: | |
Isn't it frustrating that they won't take up the challenge to set EGW on the shelf and just read the scriptures for awhile? How amazing that this would be considered something "dangerous" to do, and yet "we don't hold the writings of EGW on a par with the Bible". Yeah right.
Praying for you, too. And please try to remember that you are only called by God to say what He prompts you to say. You are not responsible for the results or reactions. His Spirit annoints our most meager words. It is the hearers choice whether or not they receive what is said. Praying also for your wife to be more than a trifle annoyed by their effort. And that SHE will be troubled by their encouragement for you to get into EGW's writings over the Bible. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 4:49 pm: | |
Brian, how did it go with your parents this weekend? We're waiting to hear! Still praying for you!
Colleen |
Brianglass
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 6:33 am: | |
Hello all,
Thanks for all the kind words and prayers. I greatly appreciate them.
Things went remarkably well, though not as I expected them to. I expected my dad to be more open minded and my mom to be very upset and closed. However, it was exactly the opposite. My mother grew up non-SDA and converted. She told me that her parents had been very upset when this happened, but that she had studied her way into the church. Therefore she understood where I was at. My dad on the other hand had grown up SDA (I'm 6th generation) and has always been SDA. He took this news a lot harder than did my mother.
On the whole they were very non-threatening and though disappointed, they were not spiteful or stand-offish. They have not disowned me and are not sending in the big guns (it was never even brought up). They have not suggested I read any books and may even consent to read some other books (I'm going to review "Cultic Doctrine" and if I like it I'll send it to them. My wife's reading it right now).
As for the church members, we actually received a couple calls from members expressing their belief that what the board did was wrong and still wanting to be our friends - regardless of the fact that we disagree on issues of theology. It's good to know that there are people like that in SDAism. But on the whole we haven't heard a peep out of the rest of the church.
Things are turning out quite well. We haven't been back to the SDA church for several weeks now (we did go once to Toledo SDA) and things are starting to settle down. I don't think I'll ever be able to leave SDAism and its effects behind, but things are getting better.
I was listening to Steve Brown (his program is "Key Life") on the radio this morning and he put it very well. Sometimes we look at scars and recall all the pain they caused. But in reality we should be "proud" of our scars because they are evidence of our healing. Our scars will always be with us, but they remind us of what Jesus went through so that we might be healed.
Again, thanks for all the prayers and support. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 8:51 pm: | |
Hey folks...I'm still looking for further interest in Southwest Michigan for a FAFellowship, or get-together. If you know formers in the area, pass the word on or let me know if you might be interested. Thanks or you can e-mail me too....sherryreinbold@attbi.com. |
|
