| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra |
Oh, let's everyone e-mail this mail our personal testimonies!! I told you all how I discovered the truth through my own bible study and not the influence of anyone. No one even knew I was going through this, as I'm sure it was with Greg. I had my doubts at times as we all have I'm sure but every time I asked the Lord for assurance and claimed James 1:5 for wisdom, he came right back, many time immediately with confirmation for my faith. First with the Hebrews 10:32-39 "Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution, at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew yourselves that you had better and lasting possesions. So DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, IT WILL BE GREATLY REWARDED,YOU NEED TO PERSERVERE SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE HAS PROMISED. For in just a little while He who is coming will come and will not delay. But MY RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH, AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, I WILL NOT BE PLEASED WITH HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THOSE WHO SHRINK BACK AND ARE DESTROYED, BUT OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND ARE SAVED. niv About a week later, as if that wasn't enough confirmation, my neighbor's brother and wife came to see them and they weren't home so they came over to my house to wait for them. I had just met this couple the week before and we started talking about the Lord and giving testimonies and after I gave mine the lady, Abby, told me that she had gone to a revelation seminar not long ago and that she was almost taken in by the SDA's. She is pentecostal so this was far from anything she knew to be truth. She said she was SO worried about it that she prayed so hard for the Lord to show her the truth. She asked everyone she knew to pray about it, and she said she was driving down the road when 2 Peter 3:14 came into her head so vividly that she had to pull over to the side of the road to look it up immediately. It says: Therefore, beloved looking forward to these things be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. NKJV Praise the Lord, He sent her right when I needed that confirmation. You know, we have an obligation to preach the gospel and if it is not accepted, we turn to someone else. The Bible says God will put great dilusion on those who reject the love. I plan to e-mail this man in the most non-condemning letter I can write and I will pray for wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lift the veil, the seed has already been planted, thanks to Greg and Paula, let's water it with love! Sabra | ||
| Doug222 |
I am still seeing red after reading Bacchiocchi's response. I think mainly because I realize how I've been dooped for forty years by the garbage he is spewing. I remember a couple of years ago Mike Tyson weas fighting Evander Holyfield for the heavyweight title. When Tyson realized he was in trouble, he bit Holyfield's ear off. Some of you think I am exagerating, but that is exactly what happened. Well, Bacchiocchi's response reminds me of a fighter who is on the ropes, ready to go down for the count, who resorts to low blows. He acknowledges in his letter that over 5000 Adventists have left the church in the last five years (which does not take into account those who did not resign, but just left). He acknowledges that 20 ministers have left. He also acknowledges that many others are contemplating leaving. Rather than acknowledging that there could be a problem, he resorts to low blows. Watch his tactics: 1. He says he's not going to deal with the Sabbath, but then spends the next 33 pages dealing with just that. Is it because to Adventism, that is the gospel? 2. He attacks Greg personally. Earlier I said that he accused him of being emotionally and intellectually instable. Actually, he said he is mentally and emotionally unstable. He has no basis for making this accusation. 3. He minimizes the worship experience of anyone who does not worship just like him (or D. James Kennedy). 4. He challenges Greg's comments about the success of the celebration style of worship by questioning the numbers. His challenge is based on the use of "official" numbers. Now everyone who has ever been in an Adventist church realizes that those numbers are useless. There are always far more people on the books than those who actually attend, and there are people who attend who never end up on the books. 5. He makes the assertion that he shouldn't have to respond to Greg's letter because he has already responded to the likes of Dale Ratzlaf. He only responds now because everyone begged him. So much for humility. 6. He calls for further exclusivity to avoid contaminating the Advent message. 7. He denis the existence of apathy in the SDA church based on his own observations--as if they should somehow have more validity than Greg's, yours, mine, or the countless thousands who feel the same way. "Bacchiocchi says, therefore it is." 8. He measures the vitality of a congregatio on such "essentials" as "do they dress modestly, decently, and with reverance (whatever that means), especially in God's sanctuary." "Do they worship God in the beauty of holiness with "appropriate" sacred music." 9. He suggests that spiritual vitality is found in the physical, social, and spiritual rest of a 24 hour period, rather tnan resting in the completed work of Jesus 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 10. He gives anecdotal evidence of other churches who have "embraced the Sabbath message," without a comment on their understanding of the cross. 11. He makes excuses for EGW's plagerism by saying "she didn't copy as much as people said she copied." God was just being efficient by not having her reinvent the wheel. Sabra, if you're able to write him a non-condemning letter, I applaud you. I don't think that I could do it. This man is the "voice of Adventism," and he is leading thousands astray with this elitist garbage. Greg, you have been a blessing to me, and I am sure may other people on this forum. Please do not let this attack deter you from your continued service to God. Angry, but still in His Grace | ||
| Colleentinker |
Last Sunday we had a visiting missionary at church. He is Arab, descended from Mohammed, and he is now Christian and engaged in translating books of the Bible into Arabic and having them professionally bound for the Arab market. The discussion around his talk included repeated reminders that when the church is persecuted, it thrives. Perhaps the word "persecuted" is too strong for this Bacchiocchi response, but certainly we could say Greg and Paula are being reviled. In fact, all of us who have reached the same conclusions as Greg and Paula are likewise being reviled. I see this as an opportunity for the truth about the gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to be proclaimed. The fact is that Bacchiocchi's arguments do not stand up to inductive Bible study. The character slurs that are part of his defense are not convincing except to those who wish to be convinced. This letter reminds me of something the principal of the boys' high school said to us when we transfered them there from an SDA school. We told him our story, and he looked at us with deep empathy and said, "When they persecute you--and they will persecute you--remember you are blessed." Paul continually declared, in varying words, that he was not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. He joyfully endured beatings, stonings, and imprisonment for the truth about Jesus. Talk about leaving an arrogant, intellectual milieu when he left 1st century Judaism! Although we can expect these kinds of defenses and attacks, they still blind-side us and hurt deeply. But we can rejoice; God has revealed his grace to us, and the Holy Spirit in us reveals and clarifies the Holy Spirit's inspiration of the Bible to us when we sincerely seek truth. I praise God for the power of Greg and Paula's testimony and for their lives. I praise God for Bacchiocchi's attention to their testimony, and I praise God for using this situation to bring the issue of grace and rest in Christ to the front of our attention. I further praise Him for reinforcing and confirming what God has already taught us. Praise God for truth! Colleen | ||
| Sammi |
I have been feeling the same, that Greg and Paula are being "persecuted." Colleen, you're right, as painful and hard as this may be, God is definitely using it to bring our attention to this issue of grace and rest in Christ. Praise Him! I know we will all be especially holding the Taylor family up in prayer in the coming days. Love to all, Sammi (And a P.S. to Doug - I was the same way, somewhat fearful of reading what the great Bacchioche had to say, then it reinforced to me the sickness of the denomination.) | ||
| Madelle |
If you analyze the language and arguments/proofs used in most of Bacchioche's work, you'll discover some constant themes: He always finds ways to tell the reader how wonderful he is. He doesn't seriously consider the arguments of others--he dismisses them. He doesn't really prove what he says. He seems to think that if he says something it is true because he has said it. There are others, of course, but you get the idea. His writings would make a good project for a graduate student in speech. I won't read his stuff any more because of these things. I can't respect him as a scholar because of these fundamental flaws in presenting his reasons for his statements. Also I don't like the tone of his writing. He does not come across as a kind and caring Christian. He may very well be one, but what comes across is a rigid, authoritarian attitude--he's better than anyone else and so they should do what he says. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Didn't show too the sickness of our SDA society to look to one great man or woman to tell us what truth is. Something makes us afraid, unstable...we turned to EGW or some great conference pres. or something...not the Word like a Berean. It's true though and awesome to think that Greg and Paula's story has stirred up the church so that as Doug said "the voice of Adventism" has been asked to make a response. Let's pray for those people struggling right now for their eyes to be opened and be able to see between truth and error. Doug thanks for your sharing there too how this letter affected you. Isn't it amazing how now we hear the same SDA ways of explaining things and are eyes have been opened to the plain reading of God's word and we know those one verse explanatians are garbage. I just looked at him using Hebrews 4 was it v10? to make his point on Sabbath keeping, and yet what about the rest of the chapter that speaks so plainly that there is a day assigned "TODAY"!! Amazing. | ||
| Sabra |
Doug, I was furious when I read it. However, I know if I were to write a letter stating what I REALLY felt initially, he would delete it and I would get no where. My first impression was that I saw this man as someone falling off of a cliff and hanging on by nothing more than his fingernails. He senses that maybe he is wrong, I can see that, however he is so arrogant that he doesn't want to consider it for one moment for fear of losing his "salvation". I'm going to TRY to not walk in the flesh and send a lengthy letter to him with the response I hope Jesus would have. I'm just so glad that I am strong in my convictions and my faith. I was worried at first of how I would fare but now with the SDA pastor's visit and my family....I'm isolated but happy:) Sabra | ||
| Doug222 |
Sabra, I went back and reread the letter point by point. Specifically, there were two comments that were sum up the topic of this discussion: First he said, " it would be helpful to establish an International Evangelistic Institute, devoted specifically to develop new strategies to reach Christians and non-Christians with our message." My question is, why is there a need to reach Christians, unless you believe your message is better (a different Gospel) than theirs. Second, he said "The most happy and vibrant fellow-believers that I know, are those who follow the principles outlined in the writings of Ellen White." Nothing else should need to be said about that comment. If anyone has/had any doubts about the cultishness of this denomination, they (the doubts) should be dispelled by now. I pray that God will guide you in your letter. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lydell |
Good points Doug. Actually, as I was reading, I had copied and pasted that second observation of yours here to comment on. Isn't that a huge bit of B.'s problem, as evidenced by the statement "no one seems to speak to our spiritual needs as Ellen White does"? Yep, there's the problem. Start each day relying on Ellen, and you end each day relying on her as well. No thanks. I'll take the Bible instead. You know, as I read through the mess, I started laughing. Come on all you guys, stop and think back for a minute to the time when you had begun to wake up to the stench of the non-gospel of Adventism. Can't you remember reading articles or hearing about things like for example, the celebration churches being dissed. Didn't you feel a spark of hope leap up inside you? Didn't you find that you began to "read through the lines" of things to find out what these people had that you lacked? Adventist stuff just began to have this feel of disjointedness from what you were reading in the Bible. You saw what they said, but you became uneasily aware of the gaping holes in what you were reading in the SDA junk. The Lord is going to do the same with this mess. I think our calling is to be in prayer for these folks who are hungry thirsty seekers after truth..."oh Lord, make them truly miserable so they are driven to your Word for answers!" I mean come on now. This is one of the most visible spokesman for the partyline of Adventism ADMITTING that 20 pastors (I've heard the number is far higher) and 5,000 folks (come on! you KNOW it is far higher!) have left the church just in the past 5 years because of, and I quote!: the "supposed New Covenant Theology". This is good news we are seeing....they are scared because people are finding the gospel and leaving! How awesome! Anyone wanna join me in putting on some "beat music" and "swaying and dancing"? FREEDOM! Quiz time: what is the one subject that was mentioned FAR less than any other in B.'s tome? | ||
| Nate |
Dear Friends, Thanks so much for your encouraging words and personal contacts off line! We are so blessed by our FAF family! For our flesh it is hard to take untruths and twisted half truths that come against us. But The good news is that the message of God's amazing grace is coming to the forefront. People are being drawn to study for themselves. We believe that Dr Bacchiocchi himself is under conviction. We pray for him regularly. The apostle Paul was once adamantly Zealous for the Law and so were many of us! I must admit that once I too fought against the truth as it is in Jesus. Praise the Lord for this opportunity for people to study and be exposed to the word. Isa 54 says, No weapon formed against you will prosper, and every tongue that rises up against you in judgement, you shall condemn!" Thank you Lord! Let's pray for the freedom of our people, God's people, who are struggling with these truths! Love to all of you! In Christ, Greg | ||
| In_his_service |
The only thing he almost NEVER mentioned is the ONLY thing worth talking about.....and the One that they take their eyes away from to look at ancient symbols. That One is Jesus. I'll take Him over EG ANYTIME! Thomas <>< | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lydell--I'll bite on your quiz: I sure didn't read much about JESUS in Bacchiocchi's tome! I also choked on the phrase, the "supposed New Covnenant Theology". Isn't it wonderful to know JESUS--to really know him--and to know that He is guiding us to himself and to truth? Praise God! And praise God for this Bacchiocchi article surfacing to confirm to us that we really are growing in Him! Colleen | ||
| Sabra |
Greg, I sense that he is under conviction too. Don't you remember when people tried to get through to us before the "veil" was lifted? It's hopeless! Oh, Doug, it is most definately a cult. So powerful that the Holy Bible can't even be interpreted for what it says word for word. I think the Muslims are going to blow the Sunday Law theory right out the back window. Do you all see a second Hitler coming up here? This is most definately a christian/muslim war not sabbath/sunday and soon enough they will have to realize that. I'm doing a study on how the US will help Israel fight the anti-christ in Micah. I feel our president is a christian man and he has been called to a great purpose. I even feel that Gore may have won the election but God had a different plan. We are not babylon. The Bible says those who bless my people are blessed. I'm going to write Mr. Cult leader today, he probably wont respond, we'll see. The Lord is opening doors for us all to share the gospel. It is so exciting! Sabra | ||
| Sabra |
Ok, Here's what I wrote. Let me know what you think and pray an annointing on my letter.Dear Dr. Bacchiocchi, I have recently read you response to Greg Taylor's open letter. I do not know Mr. Taylor personally, however, I would like to share my own experience with you and then respond to some of your points. I was raised in the Adventist faith. Attended Adventist schools, and a few months ago I would have had a similar response to Mr. Taylor's letter as yours. I have shared my faith with people in the past and believed with all my heart that I was right. Recently, I saw just such an opportunity when new neighbors moved in next door and were interested in Bible study. I wasn't convincing with my own words so I turned to my Bible in the most extensive study I have ever done, all effort was directed at sharing the Sabbath with these people and enlightening them to the truth. I looked in the concordance and looked up everything under Sabbath, commandement and law. As I studied I prayed for wisdom in finding the texts that would enlighten my neighbors. The more I read, the more I felt I was being lead away from my beliefs! I was so distraught but unable to accept what I was seemingly reading. I prayed and prayed "Lord, help me show these people the truth!" This went on for some time and finally, I broke down and prayed my heart out to the Lord to show ME His will, to show ME if I was wrong. I laid down all my pride and self assurance in my beliefs and opened my heart and mind to the instruction of the Lord. Only until I prayed this prayer did the texts I had been so perplexed about make sense to me. The power of the Holy Spirit came over me so strongly and in a moment the veil was lifted! I now know that I have an eternal, permanent rest through my faith in God and the acceptance of His grace. I finally have the peace that passes all understanding. I'd like to add that no one had any influence on my journey. I told no one that I was going through this. This was a very private struggle for me. Now that I have assurance in the Lord, I have shared this with people and have been rejected by my own. At times I was discouraged and doubted myself and in one moment of uncertainty I prayed for God to show me without a shadow of a doubt that I was doing His will and understanding His rest. I said amen and opened my Bible directly to Hebrews 10:32-35, it says: But recall the former days in which, after you were iluminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; for you had compassion on me in my chains and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have an enduring possesion for yourselves in heaven. THEREFORE DO NOT CAST AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE WHICH HAS GREAT REWARD. When I read that last line, it almost made me cry. Every hair stood on end, I felt an awesome presence of God that I can not describe. Now in your response I have several concerns: First, you mention that several people had written and e-mailed their concerns to you and wanted you to respond. This made me think of the Catholics who always consult the priest about their concerns. Why not have the faith in God and the Holy Spirit to guide you in the way you should go? Part of the reason for the cross is that we don't need an interceeder, the Holy Spirit interceeds for us and God does have the power to lead us in the right direction if we will just ask...James 1:5 Secondly, why respond with a derogatory, lengthly letter, which has two more parts... drudging up all of the past sins of Mr. Taylor and discrediting his conviction? The Lord has forgiven him of his past, who are we to bring it to everyone's attention? Wouldn't the christian response be: Pray for our brother in Christ and his salvation? Next, I have several concerns with your belief that there is going to be a National Sunday Law. This belief has caused your organization to support the exclusion of Our Saviour in the public school system and decreased the spread of the gospel. How will Jesus respond to that when He returns? You support the right to freedom of religion simply out of fear. If you truly believe that a National Sunday Law will hasten the return of Our Lord, wouldn't you want to proceed with it? Do we want to delay His coming? If you can see the news and recognize what is happening in our world, I think you would see that we are facing a problem much bigger that sabbath vs sunday: The Muslims are declaring war on the christians! Furthermore, our Jewish friends worship on Saturday and we are their biggest supporters, why would we persecute them? The freedom to worship God Almighty is at stake here, not a day of the week! Jews are being converted to christianity in record numbers, prophecy is being fufilled and it is not Ellen White's version. I plead with you, if your true desire is to honor our Lord and accept the love and sacrifice that He has given to us and spread the precious gospel that He has left as our biggest work, that you will humble yourself and pray to God for guidance in truth, no matter what the cost. He will give it to you without reproach! You have to be willing to accept it with an open heart. Sometimes we don't want to listen for fear that it may alter our lifestyle or cause us to have to admit that we didn't understand what we were so sure of....the rewards of heaven are worth so much more! Don't accept my testimony, take it to the Lord with a sincere heart, please. Sincerely Yours in Christ, Sabra M. Reed Sorry so long, it took me forever to figure out how to move it here...duh | ||
| Windmotion |
Your letter was very sincere and nonjudgmental, Sabra, a completely different spirit than that of Dr. Bacchiocchi. I read his letter with a bitter feeling of distaste, as he happily put on the "Ellen White" hat to condemn two who dare to disagree with the church doctrines. A second answer to Lydell's question of what is missing from the newletter is the spirit of LOVE. John 13:35 says "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Dr. Bacchiocchi seems to think Christ's disciples will be recognized by their adherance to sda health doctrines. Even in the introduction, he loftily looks down from above at the multitudes of "uncritical minds" writing him for advice, and he condescendingly decides to repeat his arguments one more time for their sake. He credits Greg's mental instablility as being that which caused him to leave the church and not concentrated study. He clinically picks apart the "open letter" extracting phrases like a doctor writing a profile on a mental patient. Any weakness is pounced upon, for Dr. Bacchiocchi has no weaknesses, has never doubted his faith. It takes a strong man to admit weakness, and Greg is strong in that respect. Did Dr. Bacchiocchi meet one on one with Greg to confront him with the error of his ways, as Jesus says to do in Matt. 18, before presenting it publically to the church? Greg and Paula's letter in contrast puts honesty in place of self-glorification and love in place of bitterness or malice. This is the argument, which Dr. Bacchiocchi calls a "simple and sincere confessional story" that has touched the hearts of many, including my husband. Sda's can bounce back Sabbath arguments like an Olympic ping-pong player. But they aren't as able to respond to someone who says "Let me tell you what God has done in my life, and let me show you how He can do the same for you." Thank you Greg. --Hannah | ||
| Doug222 |
Sabra, Great letter. Definitely written with a different tone than Bacchiocchi's. The feedback I woud give you on the letter is to ask yourself what is your intended response? About half way through your letter, you shifted off of the issues that were contained in his letter, and began to talk about his position on religious liberty (i.e. prayer in school)and speculations about end time events). I think this gives him an opportunity to postulate and not deal with the issue at hand. I would keep the letter focused on your Biblical understanding of Jesus' substitutionary death and the testimony of your personal journey. I admit my own bias may be showing here, but I do not see the need to support the "inclusion" of Jesus in the public school system. Everything that is Adventist is not necessarily wrong. I believe they are right on target in this area. Let's look at it this way, how would you like for your child to be taught by a SDA teacher who is influencing him/her with the garbage we just read in Bacchiocchi's letter? You wouldn't, and neither would I. Jesus is already in the schools. Kids take him there ever day. have you heard of the program "meet me at the pole?" What the whole prayer in school argument is about is a smoke screen for compulsory observance of religious rituals. Notice I used the word "religious rituals." A person who does not believe in God cannot pray, its only a ritual. Anyway, this is just my feedback. Others may see it differently. In His Grace | ||
| Sabra |
Doug, I don't want doctrines taught in school. I only feel that the right of a student-of any faith-to pray should not be denied-even if they pray to Allah or Buddah. Religious freedom is denied when a school can't put God Bless America on the marquee. Doctrines should be taught within private schools for each person's choosing. I just wanted him to realize that the SDA church is not speeding up the process of preaching the gospel so that this work can be finished. He is going to most likely attack me either way but I have done my part. Sabra | ||
| Doug222 |
Sabra, Maybe this isn't an appropriate topic for this forum, so I'll say this and then leave it alone (so as to avoid a protracted debate). Are students prevented from praying in school? The only prohibition is to have government (school) sanctioned prayer. When you say that taking a stand for religious liberty hinders the spreading of the Gospel, you are in effect saying that the phrase "God Bless America" is a Christian phrase and not one that applies to any religion--in which case it would serve no purpose. Anyway, there is nothing that says that we have to agree on everything. We agree on the essentials, that's all that is important. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sabra |
Doug, Fair enough. Should we print new money since it says In God We Trust? OK, I'll leave it alone, really. :) Sabra | ||
| Lydell |
Sabra, your letter is really good! I especially liked your point about folks writing to him instead of looking to the Word and the Lord for themselves. You know, I think Doug does have a valid point about deciding what your goal is and making sure that all your points support that focus. I know, it's rough when writing to an SDA, isn't it? There are SO many erroneous teachings that we can hit on. It's always tough to narrow it down to just the one thing you want to address in your one letter so they don't go off chasing a rabbit that the SDA's find particularly attractive. HA and aren't there a bunch of those! Okay, I'll toss in my own two cents on the matter of prayer in schools. I think that kids ought to be able to pray privately, pray in groups, read their Bibles, write reports on the scriptures or religious issues, have prayer at graduations, etc. My concern is for the public prayer in the classrooms with kids who are basically a captive audience. To me, it isn't a matter of them having a right to speak the prayer, but rather a matter of what a kid would be forced to show respect towards. Christians aren't the only ones who pray. Should a Christian child be forced to show respect for a prayer offered to Allah? Or to some families favorite goddess? Or the earth? Or satan for that matter? Those are all very real possabilities in our world today. |
