| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra |
Yeah, It overwhelmed me! I'll stick with the simplicity of the plan of salvation I know and understand. whew!! Haven't tried to make sense of something that much since Religion 101 Freshman year when we studied the "3 angels messages" ;) Sabra | ||
| Sherry2 |
I find that both schools of thinking have flaws and both schools of thinking have truths. In my opinion we as people like to seek dichotomy - something plainly black and white. These two schools of thinking seem to do that from what I've studied. And my own opinion is that truth lays somewhere in the middle. The fault that you said Calvinism has, Richard, about never having assurance of salvation is quite what I find Armenianism gives. Because as long as one may sin he cannot have surety of salvation either. How can one know that they've lapsed from grace. SDA, being of the school of Armenianism, did just that for us. I remember having discussions (as many of you probably did) about if a person swore just before they died in a car accident, would they be lost or saved. Or the discussion of David during his time of adultry being unsaved, and then coming back to God and being saved again. So what you've said as a fault of Calvinism (which I haven't found it to be so), is the fault I've personally experienced from Armenianism. I'll take Jesus any day but I pray to never get pigeoned holed into a follower of a simple man. | ||
| Richardhardison |
Sherry, you introduce problems that simply aren't in the system. In the case of Calvinism you literally have no way of knowing you are one of the elect until you stand before Christ. if you haven't found this fault then all I can say is you haven't really looked at the system and Calvin described it pretty plainly in his own writings. In the Wesleyan system you have the witness of the Spirit that assures you of salvation. Arminianism doesn't cut anyone off because it isn't known at what point God cuts a person off. 1 John 1:9 seems plain enough, however. Sin is forgiven only if confessed, not because you bought fire insurance when you were 7 years old. Yor faith in God's provision is what saves you, and if you believe God then your actions will reflect what is inside. What you saw in the SDA was not Arminianism, but a legalistic system that has existed at many times in the Church age and will crop up in many fellowships. I don't worry about being pigeonholed, I just accept the description that others have made so I can speak with people intelligently. Richard L. Hardison | ||
| Sherry2 |
I've only found that fault in hyper-Calvinism. And sorry, SDAism does follow an Arminian system. And see how Arminianism does infact not assure you of salvation by what you just said. You must forgive every sin or you are not forgiven and therefore not redeemed. So if I miss one, and Lord knows my life has had plenty of sin, then I will not enter the kingdom of God. Salvation teaches that Jesus died for all sins once and for all. We confess in agreement with God that we have done wrong, and we turn away from what we know as sin, but it does not mean that we must make sure we've confessed each individual sin in order to be saved. Then salvation is not through Christ, but in my ability in memorization. | ||
| Sherry2 |
I miswrote.. you must forgive should be you must confess.......... | ||
| Lydell |
As I've said before here, once we come to Christ our label has changed, we are no longer "sinner" we are now "saved by grace". "Sinner" stands in need of salvation. "Saved by grace" is a child learning to walk. He is one who stumbles, falls, trips over his own feet, doesn't have an understanding yet of how he is supposed to behavve, and even causes his own trouble sometimes, however he is still a child of His Father. You know, maybe I'm just too simple to grasp this, but I don't see what difference the label of Calvan/Wesley/Arminianism makes. At least not if I am looking to the Holy Spirit to be my guide into all truth rather than one of these three systems of thought. You take what you hear or read to the Father and let Him sift it out and show you what He has to say...chuck some, keep the rest, always allowing Him to breathe life into His word. But, I guess this is the same thing you were saying Doug. | ||
| Richardhardison |
Lydell, you are on the right track. I mentioned the difference between biblical and speculative theology somewhere here before, but the different systems are a result of man's arrogance in trying to understand how God does things. It led Calvin into serious error. the Wesleyan system was compiled by others after him as Wesley had no desire to enter into theological rhubarbs. he just wanted to preach Christ. God will breathe life in his word for those who are right with Him. If there is sin in your life the heavens will eventually become brass to you until you confess your sin and repudiate it. Sherry, you still don't get the point. The witness of the Spirit does a number of things for you, first he will lead you to the truth in His word, and second when you have stumbled He'll tell you about it. As for having to confess, you're argument is with John, "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). The promise is conditional. That may bother you, but that's God's word. If you will look in the word you will see that God gives space to repent. There is a red herring that gets thrown up by the fire insurance types, "what happens if I commit adultery then get run over by a train a microsecond later." What I have observed in those people is they are seeking a way to live in sin yet be Christian. I think you will agree those people aren't Christian and never have been. I will also point out that Spurgeon, a staunch Calvinist also taught that you must confess your sin before it can be forgiven. Spurgeon was so staunch, in fact, he called Wesley a heretic! Richard L. Hardison | ||
| Sherry2 |
In all honesty, Richard, I'm thankful you're not my judge but God is. That's all I can say. You've got your opinion of God from the Word, and I've got mine. God bless ya! | ||
| Windmotion |
Here is the point of the matter as I have been thinking about it. Maybe this is a stupid question, but where in the Bible does it say you have to have all your sins confessed before you can enter heaven? That seems to hint at catholicism. And if there is such a verse, how does it meaure up to verses such as John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (somehow to not confess sin is to cease to believe?) or Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (how can the gift of eternal life be taken back? If it is taken back, by definition it wasn't given in the first place.) I don't mean to be combative. I know this is an old old argument. But I know I would have wondered what kind of love my parents had for me if they would have kicked me out of the house every time I disobeyed them. Isn't our Heavenly Father better than our earthly father? BTW Sherry, I think meeting sometime would be FUN. --Hannah | ||
| Richardhardison |
A person who is truly striving to follow Christ will be sensitive to the Spirit and will follow His urging to confess one's sin. This, Sherry, is where the rubber meets the road. It's not that I'm your judge (Romans 14:4), and your throwing that up is merely a dodge. The Lord wants you to confess your sin and get it behind you. God wants you to judge your own sin, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11, "31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." Repentance is taking God's side against yourself when you have sinned. Remember the price that was paid so that your sin could be covered. Hannah, God doesn't kick you out simply because you disobey. Remember, however, God turned against Israel when it was clear they had turned away from Him. There seems to a point, known only to God, at which He will cut you off. No person actively seeking the will of God for their life and living according to that need ask the question of where that point is. The person who is merely buying fire insurance needs to worry about the passage found in Hebrews Chapter 10, "26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Richard L. Hardison | ||
| In_his_service |
Richard, call yourself what you will, you write from a very Arminian/westlean slant of theology. No matter what you believe, everyone develops a System of theology for themself. Call it one thing or another, most don't even know they have done so. Your eveluation of Reform (as you call calvin's) Theology is stated from an Arminian viewpoint, and doesn't reflect the doctrines of grace as known from Reform orthodoxy. This is not a forum to discuss in depth theology, so I won't do so. However I would hope that those reading will NEVER doubt their complete assurance of salvation, if they believe in Jesus....put their complete trust in Jesus....and live in His Spirit. This is the simplified thrust of Reform theology when the fat is cut away. Arminius was wrong. When you are in Him, you can't "accidently" loose your salvation. He paid for it and as He stated, "Those who the Father has given me will come to me, and those who come to Me, I will NEVER cast away". I KNOW who I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that day. Always in His grip Thomas <>< | ||
| Richardhardison |
Thomas, Calvinism is patently unbiblical. I've read Calvin, Gill, Toplady, Pink, Spurgeon, et.al, and found their theology shot through with Greek philosophy and manicheeism. I didn't reach my conclusion in a vacuum, or allow someone else to do my thinking for me, I studied the subject. And you bet I write from the Wesleyan viewpoint. I arrived at the Biblical standpoint which is couterpoised in many points to the Calvinist system. I have seen a number of debates between theologians of both camps and have never seen a Wesleyan lose the debate. the only way Calvinists have been able "win" is by executing their opponents such as they did for 200 years, starting with John Calvin himself who presided over 50+ executions in Geneva, the most famous of which was Michael Servetus (I disagree with Servetus, but the point is Calvin was so insecure in his power and theology that he had to silence anyone who opposed him). I know of no Wesleyan who thinks you can "accidentally" lose your salvation. that is an intentional misrepresentation of the Wesleyan viewpoint. You can repudiate or neglect it, but that is something that takes an act of the will. Your last line speaks volumes, just as it did when Paul made the statement. A person who is committed to Christ follows His will and will repent when they stumble. Do this and you will stay "always in His grip." Richard L. Hardison | ||
| In_his_service |
As I said Richard, this is not the place to debate theology. Adventism is an Arminian/Wesleyan based religion/ That's where most of it's early members came from, so I suppose those who have come from that movement will always tend to lean that way. As a second generation SDA, I too believed you could loose your salavation by some unconfessed sin...even an "unknown" sin. That used to be held as a club over my head It scared the "hell" out of me! My mother died in mortal fear of that doctrine, wondering if she had been "good enough" or if there was some single sin she had forgotten to ask forgiveness for. Then as a Methodist, I discovered what the Wesleyan doctrines lead to. A religion based on "doing good works", not in being born again in Christ. I would never call Arminius or Wesley a Heretic as you have chosen to call men of the other stripe. I believe they were men who loved Jesus with all their hearts and were trying to serve Him to the best of their ability. I believe they were flawed in their belief. Men who wrote on the other side had flaws as well in some of their writings. Calvin wrote some really silly things, So did Luther and Wesley....what's your point? The only perfect, revealed, written, word of God is the Bible. Wesleyans, Calvinists, Baptists, Arminians, all have been amoung Christian groups who have died for their beliefs. Ours is not a perfect world and the Christian church is composed of human believers. The arguments you have used have always been used by Arminians, from the beginning. They make perfect sense to an Arminian. To say that they always win the argument is to hold that these arguments are always held in Arminian/Wesleyan gatherings. I know of many who would not agree with you. They too are widely read and have not reached their conclusions in a vaccum. I have not reached mine lightly, either. The subject of Grace is so vast that I don't believe it is possible to understand completely. I am not a Calvinist or a Wesleyan. I am a Christian who KNOWS I am saved because in the New Testament there are too many promises of assurance to be ignored. The bottom line is that Those who come to Jesus will be saved. That is what we should proclaim. Those who believe in HIS name will be saved and will not be cast away. To put lables on simple beliefs only tends to complicate the issue for believers. It is a game to be played by theologians and students. As Paul said, I boast only in Jesus and Him crucified. As a Christian, I am not required to know all things or to understand all things. My mind is not capable of understanding all things. Thank God that is not a requirement. I am only required to "believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ". and yes I will always be, In His Grip Thomas <>< | ||
| Colleentinker |
The subject of Calvinism vs. Armninianism vs. some other interpretation of predestination and judgment has been discussed quite exhaustively on this forum in the past. The discussions are still in the archives. We ultimately ended the threads on which these things were--actually--being argued because people were beginning to defend their particular viewpoints at the expense of respect for each other. This forum is not the venue for theological arguments. Some doctrines, as Lydell has pointed out, are not spelled out in absolute detail, and fellow believers may never agree on certain understandings. I'd love to hear what you all are doing for Thanksgiving. What has happened in your life since last Thanksgiving for which you are thankful? Are you travelling or hosting dinner? Are you going to be with family, and is your relationship with Jesus causing friction with any of them? I am deeply thankful for God showing us this year that our lives are his, and what we have is his. God has provided in an amazing way for us to landscape our yard--something we were despairing of ever being able to afford! He took my father to Himself, but he has blessed me with insights that have given me times of deep gratitude as I've been washed with memories of my dad. In addition, I'm thankful for God's hand on my sons' lives. He has directed Roy to enroll in Cal Poly Pomona in the electrical engineering program, but he is also a ministry intern at Trinity church. The most amazing detail for which I thank God is that Roy carpools with two other ministry interns who are also engineering majors, and they read the Bible to each other on the road in the mornings. Ray is growing in wisdom and confidence, and I praise God for the opportunities that have opened for him in the high school media ministry team. I praise God for developing deeper trust and contentment in both Richard and me. We are learning that we must hold everything in our lives loosely; God is sovereign, and what happens in our lives is really up to him. We don't "own" anything; our lives and livelihoods are in his hands. I praise God for strengthening and protecting Richard at his work. We're looking forward to spending Thanksgiving with family, some former Adventists, and one of Roy's intern buddies. Richard, my free-but-still-vegetarian husband, has taken ownership of carving the turkey and disposing of the carcass. He can't think of it as food, but he does all the handling! I praise God for Jesus and for the Holy Spirit and for the new birth which has changed my life! Colleen | ||
| Richardhardison |
Thomas, Most of the debates I've witnessed the Arminians have been a very small minority of the audience and participants. The Calvinists, like SDA types and EGW, even when they don't admit it are competely poisoned by Calvin's Institutes and it shows as they keep referring to Calvin's teachings. Bluntly, and I'm not trying to be hurtful, Calvin's institutes and things like "once saved always saved" are patently unbiblical. Anyone who buys into that trash with their lives will pay with eternity as God does not tolerate sin. You are correct that there is too much in the NT on assurance to ignore. On the other hand, there is too much about faith and how salvation depends upon it, and the fact that what you believe determines how you act to ignore either. Calvinists and their ideological descendants accept what they will and ignore what they don't like. I've never seen an Arminian deny assurance, just the unbiblical assurance that those who think you can buy fire insurance then do anything you like thinking that God will accept them. Search the Bible as you will, you will never find God tolerating sin among the world or among those who call themselves by His Name. After all judgement begins in the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17). Your statement "I am only required to "believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" is true if you accept what is said in James 2 " 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe----and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" Scripture must be taken together or you can end up with God contradicting Himself. Sorry, it ain't happening. As I said, if you are seeking God and His will and striving to stay in it you will remain in His grip. If you neglect that you are in for a surprise. Even Romans addresses obedience my friend. All this is boiling down to is the deaf shouting at the deaf. I seek God's will and to know His word. At times what God has to say is not comforting, but I must listen any way. While I speak from an Arminian standpoint I arrived at the position by serious Bible study before I ever started looking at historical theology. I wanted to know the word first so I could judge the truth and spit out the rest. Your protest of not being a Calvinist are at best a shallow front. I'm the one who pointed out there is a difference between biblical and speculative theology. Calvinism is shot through with speculative theology with a God straight out of NeoPlatonism, a form of Greek philosophy, which infected Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin. Once more, your argument is with the author of the word and not with me. Whether you are saved or not is between you and God. Just make your calling and election sure. The way to do that is to seek His will and remain in it. From what you are saying as you "live in His Spirit" that is what you are trying to do. Richard L. Hardison | ||
| Richardhardison |
Colleen I don't have any trouble arguing the matter with Thomas. I used to get caught up in this stuff when I was in the Navy at 19. I became quite distressed when i saw one of my friends from the servicemen's center in Naples, Italy, who was also a shipmate hit the beach in Palma De Mallorca, Spain, get drunk and patronize a prostitute. That guy avoided me and the other shipmate who was also a regular at the servicemen's center for two weeks after we went back to sea. I finally cornered him and talked to him about what happened. He reacted negatively at the time, but came around before we got back to Naples. I'm reminded of James 5:19-20, "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." I'm not willing to see a brother stumble without offering a helping hand. Many times that's what is required to turn a person back from a path that can lead to destruction. After reading the experiences recorded in scripture and seeing people's lives destroyed myself, I will never allow a person to start down that path without tryingt to turn them back to the way they should be going. I've met a number of "formers" who have stayed vegetarian. I think it's silly myself, but having been a committed carnivore all my life who am I to deny a man his pleasures. Seriously, I think it's more habit than anything else. I've seen a few former new agers who do the same thing. I've yet to see anyone condemn them, Romans 14 in action. Ricahrd L. Hardison | ||
| In_his_service |
Endless arguments about the law are meaningless and serve no use. Good advice to Titus from St. Paul then.....even better now. I am thankful for so many things. For a nation which still has a shred of principle. For a church which teaches from the word, in context, and bravely assures the Saints of God's promses. For a loving family. I don't get to see them alot, due be being "way down here" and they being "way up there", but the couple of visits a year are wonderful. I am thankful that even though in young age, I have been afflicted with debilitating health that has left me disabled, yet even in this I can KNOW that God is in charge! I am thankful for a nice home and a great wife who has been saddled by a worsening wreck like me, yet works harder than she should have to, to make my life acceptable. I'm thankful for the sunshine that makes up nearly all of our Florida days and the way it warms the neighbors and makes them different than they were when they fame from parts unknown. Most of all, I am thankful for the doctrine of Grace, which allows a wretch like me to be saved dispite anything I have ever done or ever will do, just because God gave me a gift.....and in faith I hang on to that every day of my life, through disability and pain, through joy and peace, and someday this friend who has walked this way with me for so long will take me home. That is something to be thankful for! I Love Him, He will never let me go, cause HE PROMISED! <>< | ||
| Sammi |
Happy Thanksgiving to all! I'm thankful for the journey I've taken this past year, the way God has led and delivered me, the awesome family and home I have, the health of me and my family - I am so blessed it's almost scary at times! I have family coming in from a number of places this year, will have a house full! The stressful part of it is that it's the first time I'll be seeing some of my family since I left the SDA church. So please, if you think of it, say a little prayer for me! Love, prayers, and best wishes to you all (or I guess I should say "ya'll", right Lydell?) Carol | ||
| Lydell |
You got it right Carol! haha I'm thankful for all the blessings of God over the past year, too numerous to mention really. The greatest of blessings, I believe, is my godly husband and two sons whose hearts are for God. I'm a wealthy woman right there! As you said, Colleen, the thing that we have been struck so forcefully with over the past year is the sovereignty of God. He truly is in control of our lives, truly is constantly working behind the scenes to care for us today and in the future. I really want His timing, not my own, (even when I get a bit impatient at times! ha). Doesn't it blow your mind to really think of what He must be doing at any given moment to prepare situations, etc. for what you will need tomorrow, next month, and 10 years from now, all at the same time? man, he's good! Now Carol, I'm a fixin' to go make a punkin pi'. | ||
| Trippllb |
Dr. Bacchiocchi's response to Greg Taylor Part II. Instead of posting the entire message again, here is the link to his site. I haven't finished wading through it myself yet, but I'm interested in your thoughts. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_77.pdf |
