| Author |
Message |
Doug222
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 7:14 am: |     |
Dennis,
Thought you might be interested in something I heard on the radio yesterday. One of the proinent ministers in my community was preaching on the topic of giving. He advocated for "anticipatory giving." That meas if I want to make $70,000 a year, I should tithe $7,000--even if I am not making that amount. In faith, God will bless me with that amount. I cannot say whether he said that is an absolute law, but he cited the example of someone who did it.
I guess the question I would ask him is "if tithe is defined as a tenth, and I give $7,000 on a $50,000 income, isn't $2,000 of that a frewill offering and not a tithe?
The other thing he said is that the tithe is to be brought into the "storehouse." He went on to say that in the Old Testamament, the storehouse was the temple because that is where the sacrifices were offered. But, we no longer offer sacrifices because the ultimate sacrifice has already occurred. But since the Christian Church practices the Lord's Supper and Baptism, which represent that sacrifice, then the local church is the "storehouse" today.
I think this is an excellent example of what you mean when you say that ministers twist the scriptures for their own benefit.
Doug |
Grok
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 8:02 pm: | |
Doug, your post about "anticipatory giving" absolutely blows my mind! I can't even think of anything to say (and that is a rare phenomenon!) |
Doug222
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 6:34 pm: | |
Grok,
I can do you one better. I remember attending a bord meeting at an SDA church a while back where one of the members mentioned that he had just learned about "anticipatory giving." He said he was stepping out on faith, and was going to give it a try. Rather than anyone correcting the misguided member, he was asked to give a testimony about his plan the next Sabbath. He did to a round of amens. I sometimes wonder if he ever got his raise. <smile> Doug |
Sabra
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 7:15 pm: | |
Ok, let me tell you what happened to me. A few months ago I was impressed to pay tithe. I had just started going back to church recently and had been SDA so I was used to paying tithe. Well, I did not have the whole 10% and my mortgage too so I prayed about it and the next day a preacher was on TV quoting Malachi and I felt like it was an answer to my prayer so, I withdrew the money from the bank and paid it, praying that my mortgage wouldn't bounce since I knew there wasn't enough in there for it. A couple of days later there was an extra 300.00 in my account and then a week or so later another 350.00!!! The bank claimed they had made an error in posting a withdrawal twice some months prior! I told the bank clerk that I had paid my tithe and she said that was amazing! So, I got blessed, the teller got blessed and the little country church got blessed! Coincidence? |
Fdauns
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 3:55 pm: | |
Well as I read Doug's post it was a minister of another denomination but I'm not sure. In any case pleading for money is something that many have perfected into an art form.
I see nothing wrong if one wants to give more money to charity, for any reason, that should be commended.
But I do have to stop and scratch my head at the segment of preachers, from any persuasion, who are out beating the war drums about the more you give them the more you'll get materially blessed. Besides the fact that I'm pretty convinced thats not biblical I have to ask "Why don't they just try it themselves ?"
I mean don't they have last weeks haul ? Can't they just donate it to themselves instead of making fiscally responsible decisions with it ( paying the lightbill, their salary, etc ). If their plan works as good as they say it does they'd soon have so much money coming in from their ever increasing blessing that they could stop asking for donations all together.
Would you believe I spent a good part of my youth in trouble for being an annoying question asker ? ;-) |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 6:01 pm: | |
Frankly, Fdauns, I'll bet you had teachers that loved having you in class!
Sabra, I absolutely believe that when people give to God from their hearts because they want to give to him, whatever the percentage they are impressed to give, he does see to it that their bread and water will be sure. I agree with Fdauns that tithing is not a New Covenant idea. EVERYTHING we are and have belong to God, and when we walk with him we discover more and more how totally he wants all of us, including our money. But that doesn't mean that all our money goes into the offering plate. The Holy Spirit helps us know what to give and when to give it. Our call is to hold everything lightly and to be willing for God to give or take as He sovereignly designs.
Remember Jesus' wonderful statment in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5? He asked why we worry about what we eat or what we'll wear. The lillies of the field don't worry, and they are beautifully arrayed. Your Father in heaven knows you need these things. Seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you!
Praising God for his faithfulness,
Colleen |
Grok
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 6:58 pm: | |
I attend a "mega church" (i believe the definition is over 2000 attenders, but I might not have that right). Our budget requires almost $100,000 per week. Our pastor has only gotten up and spoken about specific financial needs 3 or 4 times in the last 11 years (and we have gone through two building programs). Even then, he puts the need before the people and urges each one to examine their own giving in relation to their walk with God.
Since September 11 giving had dropped off each week. In November, our Pastor merely pointed out the shortfall. Within two weeks we had caught up completely and within another two weeks we were well over the budget. Sometimes we just need a little nudge to remind us. It probably doesn't hurt that people are doing their tax related end-of-the-year giving either!!
PS: when I started attending this church 11 years ago there were about 70 people and we met in the band room of a middle school. In 1992 we moved into a new building, but we had outgrown it before it was built. In 2001 we moved into another new building, but we still have to have 2 services every Sunday morning. "Sola Scriptura" is the what draws the people in. There is not "tickling of the ears"; no extra-biblical teachings. I am so blessed to be a part of this fellowship! |
Andrew_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 12:55 am: | |
Oh do I know what you mean about asking questions, that's how I Got into trouble.
I use to work with an SDA evangelist, from 1992 till I ask him a question in 1997, his answer will floor you.
I still give to God's church (church meaning people). Can you say that God is happy to see multi million dollar buildings that is said to be in His honor, and homeless people pass every day?
AA |
Doug222
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 7:38 am: | |
Andrew,
What was the question, and what was the answer?
Doug |
Grok
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 12:11 pm: | |
AA, I am not sure if your "multi million dollar" buildings vs homeless people comment has something to do with my mentioning the budget of the church I attend. But I feel I need to address a few things.
First, I am going to speak from my own experience. Second, I do agree that there are "christians" who sit in multi-million dollar facilities and return to their million dollar homes---completely insulating themselves from those less fortunate.
But there is much more to the story than the emotionally charged suggestion that Christians neglect the poor and homeless to worship in expensive buildings.
The Homeless: I am by no means and expert and I have never been homeless, but I have followed this issue on and off since the early 80's when the media and special interest groups became very interested. I happened to catch some statistics on TV yesterday----this program suggested that studies have shown that some 40% of the homeless are veterens, 50+% are substance abusers, and approximately 40+% are homeless as the result of domestic violence. (Also see this link: http://nch.ari.net/who.html)
I have a personal experience with helping the homeless. My ex-husband took a guy to Taco Bell who was hanging around a construction site. He then brought he and his "pregnant" girlfriend home. They stayed for several weeks; they ate thanksgiving dinner with us; they cried over the sharing of the gospel and "accepted Jesus as their Savior"; our church gave them clothes, shoes, money, food, and a car. Then this couple disappeared. I got a call several months later from the girlfiend (who was faking the pregnancy, by the way) asking me to come and get her from jail (she had been put in there for drugs and beating up her boyfriend). When I finally got there...it was way out in the boonies in a place I had never been...she had hitched a ride with some men. Oh, yes....they stole a bunch of valuables from us and from the church.
Bottom line...I believe it takes expertise and experience to deal with the majority of the homeless. There are agencies out there that are equipped to handle the veterens, the criminals and the addicted. There are also churches and religious groups that have resources and experience to help these people.
Personally, I was ill equipped, and had no business putting my family in danger by bringing criminals and cons into my house. I don't think God required that of me...it was more out of the idea the "good people" and especially "Christians" recycle, feed the homeless, and don't use airsol hair spray ;-)
I would suggest that churches in different geographic and socio-economic areas have different "mission fields". Churches first meet the needs of their community, then region, then nation, then the whole world.
Again, my own experience...
yes...my church has an expensive building, but it is more due to the cost of the land it sits on and the square footage necessary, than to any kind of plushy, comfy building.
Our sanctuary is a gym. There is a family who volunteers to take up and put back all 1300+ of the chairs several times a week for the different events that take place. Each movement of the chairs takes well over 4 hours.
This is the 2nd building we have had to build, and we were debt free in the first building before we started the 2nd building. In addition, a company bought our first building and allowed us to stay in it for about a year so we had the capital to to complete an extra building that houses all the children's ministries.
There is a large home-schooling enrichment program that runs each week.
We have a very large Hispanic population moving into our area of the country. We now have a Hispanic pastor who is coordinating an outreach to that local population.
We have huge childrens and student ministries.
But, the main focus of our church is missions. We have two "sister" churchs we support in communities within about 25 miles of our location. Members from 9th grade on up will have the opportunity to participate in any of 13+ mission trips this year which include construction, teaching, medical ministry, etc. In addition, we provide support for a large global staff located in areas such as India, El Salvador, Canada, Japan, France, Eastern Europe, etc.
In fact, our mission budget is larger than all the other budgets combined, including the building payments.
So yes, AA, the Lord does bless large churches and small churches. Each church has its mission field---we are not all called to be teachers, or leaders, or pastors, or to minister to the homeless.
In a study I read, approximately 6.5% of the population who were surveyed claimed to be homeless at some point during their life (self reporting surveys are always fraught with statistical problems and "at some point" could mean for 1 or 2 days) what are we going to do about meeting the needs (both body and spirit) of the other 94% of that population? And that covers only those who were sent a survey and is only in the US...what about the rest of the world? |
Andrew_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 8:02 pm: | |
Grok, that comment is not for you and others that are doing what God ask us to do.
Doug, the first question I ask was from the book Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, page 64, and 75.
The amalgamation comment troubled me because this was the first time in 35 years as an SDA that I had a question. I just knew that my leader, Pastor Allen Sovory, would give me the truth about this. His answer, I have heard so many times since then it make me sick. He said,"bro. Adams, I will study that and get back with you. Well after about 18 months later I ask him for the fifth time, he said, and I quote, "I will not talk to you about EGW." Five meetings a year, for over five years he was teaching EGW to people, and he would not talk to me about it. I just couldn't understand why no one would talk to me about EGW and some of her comments. Well I know now. There were more questions and the same answer, or no answer at all. I ask some of the same questions on VOAF and got kicked off. I am back on now but I don't ask questions any more.
AA |
Grok
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 8:24 pm: | |
Thanks AA...it was a good exercise for me to think about it!
I remember being very interested in the amalgamation thing myself...it appeals to my scientific interests.
There was a guy who wrote out that kind of stuff and also a book "proving" that EGW was a true prophet...Does anyone remember that author or the name of the book?
The other day I read about amalgamation on another SDA related site (I think it was linked from this site). I had never heard the racism/amalgamation connection before...makes sense! |
Andrew_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 8:39 pm: | |
Grok, haave you ever read what the SDA church says about the amalgamation statement?
AA |
Grok
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 10:13 am: | |
Not the actual statement...just about the issue. Is there a link or a resource you could direct me to?
Grok |
Andrew_adams
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 9:49 pm: | |
Sorry, been so busy. Yes there is, Do this
(type in your search line) ellen g white
when you get the next page
(click on the ellen g white web out of Andrews Univ)
The next page you will get
(click on) Unusual statements made by Ellen G White.
AA |
Grok
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 8:04 pm: | |
Thanks AA.
I found it!
The article I read seemed like an amazing attempt to justify or obfuscate what EGW really said. What they couldn't explain right out, they tried to cover up by circular arguments and suggestions.
The Flood story to me is another link in the chain of God's amazing love and grace! Over and over again God has pursued us, loved us back to Himself, forgiven us, wooed us---died for us!
My Jesus I love thee
I know thou art mine
For Thee all the follies
Of sin I resign.
I love Thee for
Wearing the thorns on
Thy brow...
If ever I loved Thee
My Jesus tis now.
Grok |
Andrew_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 11:07 pm: | |
Grok, great, even if we think it's bad God only works out of love for us.
AA |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 3:01 pm: | |
Here is an archived devotional for you from Charles Spurgeon that I thought I would paste in this thread.
Janice
THE LAW AND THE GOSPEL
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10
The moral law does not consider us as weak human beings at all, it takes no account of our heredity and infirmities, it demands that we be absolutely moral. The moral law never alters, either for the noblest or for the weakest, it is eternally and abidingly the same. The moral law ordained by God does not make itself weak to the weak, it does not palliate our shortcomings, it remains absolute for all time and eternity. If we do not realize this, it is because we are less than alive; immediately we are alive, life becomes a tragedy. "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." When we realize this, then the Spirit of God convicts us of sin. Until a man gets there and sees that there is no hope, the Cross of Jesus Christ is a farce to him. Conviction of sin always brings a fearful binding sense of the law, it makes a man hopeless - "sold under sin." I, a guilty sinner, can never get right with God, it is impossible. There is only one way in which I can get right with God, and that is by the Death of Jesus Christ. I must get rid of the lurking idea that I can ever be right with God because of my obedience - which of us could ever obey God to absolute perfection!
We only realize the power of the moral law when it comes with an "if." God never coerces us. In one mood we wish He would make us do the thing, and in another mood we wish He would leave us alone. Whenever God's will is in the ascendant, all compulsion is gone. When we choose deliberately to obey Him, then He will tax the remotest star and the last grain of sand to assist us with all His almighty power. |
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