| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 |
Well said Thomas!! Although you and Fdauns hesitate to use the word abuse, that is exactly what you both described--spiritual abuse. Webster defines abuse as "useing improperly or injuriously; misuse." Can anyone say that they have not seen the Gospel improperly handled or misused. Has that handling been injurious to the ability of millions of Christians to truly experience the abundant life? In most of our cases, I don't believe it was intentional, but it doesn't change the facts. I think your idea of praying for individual Adventist is a great idea. The system is not going to change anymore than the Jewish system did when Paul was preaching, but there are many souls who are hungering and thirsting for the Living Water. I plan to join you in your resolution. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sabra |
Great resolution Thomas, the key is whether or not they are willing to know truth. As I talked to my mother this past week, as I showed her text after text of Holy Bible Truth, she told me that she did not need to hear any of that because she already knew (knows) the truth. I guess my prayer will have to be that the Holy Spirit speaks to them. So incredibly sad to be on the other side, but so wonderful too. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, It has been a long time since I have participated in this forum. I have missed yíall sooo much! Many things have happened of which I may share at length at a later time, but will touch on a couple things now. The things that have become the most re-enforced in my mind is that, God IS God, God is Love, God Cares, God Teaches and God a wonderful sense of Humor. As to the Humor. Several Sundays ago I had and emergency root canal. That being about my 15th one, I was not concerned about it till the pain was so extreme a friend had to take me to the ER for a demurol pain shot. My brother from Aust. showed up the next day who is a nurse practitioner and had to get me to the ER again for extreme pain and demurol. My previous pain script had absolutely no effect on this situation. I was able to get a ìtriplicateî script for percoset and with 2 every 2 hours, the pain was finally managed to a degree. I was on several strong antibiotics to try to reduce the swelling that by this time was the size of ‡ a lemon! Anyway, with all the drugs I was on, I could not work as I was considered ìunder the influence.î I was worried sick that I would lose my job as I am the only person that is currently hired for my position. This week involved a lot of overtime too. My boss assured me my job would still be there and they could fill in by borrowing someone from another part of their company. Whew!! So, resting somewhat comfortably in body and mind, I agreed to let my brother take my son to the movies while I slept. They came back at the appropriate time but were wearing strange faces! My brother said, ìI have some bad news!î Though drugged I knew instantly what happened! I laughed and asked if he wrecked the still wiped out side of my ìnewî truck that a hit and run ìsinnerî in our church ìgiftedî to me in the parking lot in June of 2000!!! From the look, I realized I wasnít blessed! He said, ìI hit someone.î Of coursed I figured it was his fault, but was again blessed that it was NOT! An 18 year old girl that had just been given a 2001 Dodge Stratus for college, pulled out from parallel parking at our post office giving my brother absolutely no chance to even brake. No one was hurt in any way! The damage that her car sustained from a glancing angle swipe was amazingly minor($1200) and I would recommend that as a really safe car to anyone! My truck, on the other hand has a nice boo-boo! My brother handled this like he would have in Aust. and simply exchanged info and phone numbers without calling the cops though the police station was directly across the street! Well, financially things really looked bad because I lost a week of work at this time. I was in a bit of a bind with my house in Las Vegas and had a MUST, LARGE payment arraignment to keep on the 30th of Dec. to stay out of serious trouble! Back to the damage on my truck. The girlís father asked me to get an estimate and let him know what the damage was. I got three because of the high damage figure of the first one! I offered to go to any place of the fatherís choice and get a fourth but he declined. He instead invited me to his home and wrote me a check for almost the exact amount that I was short from the work week I missed!! You know, I had just tossed the whole money issue to God because it was out of my hands now. I really was resting peacefully on this whole issue. Through an amazing set of circumstances in which a young girl, my son nor brother got hurt in any way, I got just what was needed to replaced my lost work! From this accident, the young girl also learned a very valuable lesson of always looking twice before pulling out in traffic and may save her grief in the future. Isnít God amazing? Now to very lightly touch on a different kind of issue of Godís hand. Last June I was the recipient of a vile personal attack. Each of the approximately 8 accusations were prefaced with ìIî rather than in interest of the ìbody of Christî or ìthe Bible says.î My person, body, soul, spirit and very being was raped, then iced with a hug and a promise of continued daily prayer for me. Several times I was eternally denied the opportunity to further discussed or work this out. This was very painful to me and I really stumbled. It was the fact that I did and still have a relationship with Christ along with several new friends that I am still alive today and some of those close to me did not get hurt either. My despondency and depression was incredible for about 2 months. Death was only spared by Godís grace when I was driving. Adding to, and more excruciating than anything I felt from the attack was the absolute abandonment and indifference to me from someone I had confided in. I was also promised continued daily prayer by this person. Yet, never a phone call, never a knock on my door and never an e-mail except on a separate issue that ended in a mention of daily prayer. To this day, 6 months later, SILENCE. My primary purpose in touching on this is to possibly sensitize any reader out there how our actions can be either the healing salve or the burning, searing, mutilating iron. It will be with great difficulty that I will keep this brief because of the amount of things that I have learned out of this. While still in this destructive depression, I started to study and the first subject was criticism and how we are instructed to approach one another and uncovered some wonderful stuff. My healing began here when I uncovered the Biblical principle of ìHurt people, hurt people.î Further down the road of study, I uncovered the relationship between fellow believers that is commanded by the Christ in the Bible. What a wonderful revelation one can receive from this study. Very precious to me are: 1 John 2:10...Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 1 Cor. 10:31-33/11:1...So whether you eat or drink or what ever you do, do it all to the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews or Greeks or the church of God - even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. That last sentence should forever silence those that say that our actions put us under the law. We are not UNDER the law but IN Christ and IN Christ carries a responsibility of witness. Period! And: Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. James 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. The tongue is the only weapon that sharpens with use. We all need to guard this most dangerous weapon, myself as chief of sinners included because besides being an instrument of death and terror, God promises: Psalms 64:8 He will turn their own tongues against them and bring them to ruin; all who see them will shake their heads in scorn. God used the above experience to show me that I too have used my own tongue in a wrong way. A lot has been in ignorance and most have been to my own children. The abandonment I experienced showed me how I have emotionally abandoned my own children. I HAD to feel the sting of an un-just tongue and the total abandonment to fully wake me up to the needs of my own children. I would not trade this experience for anything in the world. If we as Christians think it is our responsibility to cull out those that are weeds, determine the motives of another fellow believer or control doctrinal differences, consider Philipp Melanchthonís thoughts. (Best as I remember) In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, charity; and in all things love. The danger comes when ALL things become ìessentials.î That, to me is the epitome of legalism. This is when families, friends, groups, churches fragment and pain and sufferings continues itís evil circular race of destruction. Consider Matthew 13:24-30 and the Parable of the weeds and wheat. 28-30...The servants asked Him, ìDo you want us to go and pull them [weeds] up?î ìNo,î He answered, ìbecause while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned: then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.î I think we all need to be very careful not to do the job that Christ has claimed for himself. Is there anyone of us that really wants to take the chance of violently pulling a weed and finding out too late that it was wheat or a young wheat sprout? I have been amazed at the people that God has brought into my life recently. One of the most special is a 75 year old SDA man. We have the most wonderful and vigorous discussions. I have the privilege of sharing some great tapes and books with him. But you know, when you leave his home you know you have been with someone that has a personal relationship with Christ and it doesnít matter what church he goes too!!!!! I still struggle with the churning and wretching of my stomach when someone says they are praying for me. You see, prayer became a DIRTY thing all the way to the depth of my soul when two people that hurt me so badly continued to pray for my eternal tent while they abandoned my earthy tent. When we joined the family of God, we were all issued a life boat fully equipped. We are all out in on the sea of life. There are sinking ships in every direction and it is our sworn duty to look for and put our oars out to all who will grab on and point them to Christ whether they are believers or un-believers. We may have to nurse these people till we get them to shore. Just imagine tuning your oars on the people as you pitch them overboard and stab at them as they come up for air grabbing feverishly for your oar. Then picture yourself hollering over their drowning screams of despair, ìIíll pray for you everydayî as you row away! Well, I do praise God for sending another life boat my way. I do praise God for opening my eyes to my own inadequacies of my dealing with my kids and others. I do hope that this insight may stop just one person for un-necessarily bludgeoning another. Gal. 5:15...If you keep biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be devoured by each other. We need to be soo sensitive to one another. We donít know what trials may be coming anotherís way. There are those of us that have lost jobs or are fixing to lose jobs for their faith. There are school, church and family problems. Just please think, WWJD. Maryann...IBC=Insured By Christ Rom. 8:28 God is in charge. | ||
| Lydell |
Hi Maryann, it's good to see you back. Sorry to hear you have been through a tough time. But so glad you shared too the things that the precious Lord has shown you and done to help you thru it. Aren't we glad that HE doesn't forget. People will always have the tendency to let us down (or hurt, as happened to you). It's hard to keep in mind that others are a work in progress same as ourselves, as you said, "hurt people, hurt people" whether they do it intentionally or without thought or malice. It's so true, isn't it? When we tell someone, "I'll be praying for you" we need to take it as a solemn vow before the Lord. As our pastor says, "someone you know is waiting on the other side of your obediance". It's so hard to keep the prayers going, too. All of us have many friends and family for whom we are praying, the folks here, our church families, the other needs we hear about, our own ton of stuff....the list is so long and we are so easily distracted. I've done it plenty of times myself! Yet it all comes down to the golden rule. When I ask someone to be praying for me I NEED them to be faithful at it! Sometimes the "request" can actually be a cry of desperation. I guess one of our prayers needs to be "Lord, remind me to pray for this person." Anyway, glad you are back. Welcome Grok. I'm in southeast Alabama...and I'm here to tell you that this 100+ year old house is COLD!!! | ||
| Grok |
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! For me, prayer has been a subject of study and contemplation in the last couple of years. During the last few months my focus in prayer has changed dramatically. For the time being, I have completely removed all "asking" from my prayers. I am instead focusing on praising and worshipping God. I began to think about how my friends and family would feel if all I talked about was myself and asked them for things. God wants to have a relationship with us. He wants to walk with us in the garden in the cool of the evening. But we are selfish creatures who like to focus on ourselves. I am not suggesting that we cease to ask God for things altogether, but as the song says, "we need to get back to the heart of worship, because its all about You, Lord." While it is certainly not the seminal work on prayer, I have been interested in following the hype surrounding the "Prayer of Jabez." A friend called me up and wept with excitement about the change the "Jabez" book had made in her life. I got it and read it and was completely turned off by it. I pursued a conversation with this person at a later date and discovered that she had only read the first chapter. There are a couple of things (actually there are too many to go into here) that I have thought about with relation to the Jabez book: First, I donít need to ask God to expand my bordersÖI need to expand my relationship with HimÖwho knows maybe He wants me in a different country! Second, the fact that the book is touted so vigorously in both religious and secular venues is suspect to me. Does it really represent a new and improved way of communing with God, or has it been really well marketed? (has anyone noticed all the calendars, study guides, notepads, bracelets, and even a CD? Itís everywhere you turn---at least in this part of the country) On a humorous noteÖwhen I first heard about the prayer of Jabez I thought it was one of those long, lost books of the Bible that had been found on a scroll in a cave somewhere!!! The main point I would like to leave you with is part of putting legalism behind me has been to change the focus of my prayer life. I donít have to focus on getting it all rightÖbut on the One who has made all things right. Instead of praying like the Pharisee--- "thank you God that I am not a gentile (or a Baptist)"--- I can focus on allowing God to use all of me to bless and encourage those around me. Happy New Year! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point about prayer, Lydell. I'm more and more convinced that prayer is THE thing we can do as Christians under any circumstances. Paul repeatedly asked the people to whom he preached to pray for him, and he repeatedly told them he was praying for them. Jesus prayed for his disciplies, and he asked them to pray for him. Prayer, in ways I do not understand, makes a difference. I certainly know I could feel the difference people's prayers made for me when my father died. When we pray for someone, we are only one person removed from them--we know God, God knows us and them, and God touches them. How we respond to God's touch is another matter, but prayer is something vital and real that we are asked to do for each other. We can pray when we cannot do anything else, and we can pray while we do everything. Yesterday I read some of the memories posted above this week, and I wanted to mention a couple more memories that live vividly in my mind. When I was about 10 years old, I heard my mom and one of my aunts discussing a mutual friend who had mentioned that she wanted blueberry muffins one Sabbath, so she got up in the morning and made some. "Did you hear her say she made muffins this morning?" one of them asked in an undertone. "Yes, I'm certain that's what she said," the other replied. There followed a quiet and abbreviated discussion of their shock that their friend would have baked muffings on Sabbath! (My mom, I have to say, now cringes at that attitude!) Also, when I was in academy my flute teacher (not an Adventist) wanted me to audition for the Oregon Youth Symphony. I wanted to so badly--but I couldn't, because rehearsals were on Friday night. My flute teacher asked me if I could get a dispensation from my minister, but I told him that wasn't an option--I personally couldn't do it. I remember how disappointed I was and also how certain I was that I made the right decision. I'm not sorry I did what I did, because it was a matter of conscience then. But I do feel bad about how many things people have given up that might have been good things because of a misunderstanding of the Sabbath. Welcome, Grok. Your memories are not crazy. We're glad you can share! By the way, Happy New Year! We had a group at our house last night, and we listened to our favorite music and had communion together about 11:30. It was a wonderful way to welcome the uncertain future. Isn't it great to know that no matter what happens, we are safe in Jesus and our lives are in his hands? We truly don't have to worry. Colleen | ||
| Fdauns |
Hey Grok, I'm in your corner with Jabez. I just don't get it. My wife on the other hand is really into it. I scanned it and wound up with the same basic thoughts that you did. The only thing that I can figure is that "enlarging my tent" a phrase from that work, may be applied to almost anything. Another word for bless me. And bless me can be taken to mean give me things, material things, or it can be spritual things to, including relationship with Christ, peace, etc. And yes it has appeared on just about everything, books, coffee mugs, study guides, etc. I'm waiting for the Prayer of Jabez Pajamas ;-) | ||
| Doug222 |
Grok and Fdauns, I too was turned off by all the Jabez hype. However, I think much of it is misunderstood. May I suggest you read another one of the books by the same author, Bruce Wilkerson. It is "Secrets of the Vine." Once you read this book, you will look at the Prayer of Jabez in a different light. You will begin to see "expanding your territory" in association with bearing fruit in your life. I would like to believe that Wilkerson did not intend all the Jabez hype, but realize that he is also the beneficiary of all the journals, coffe mugs, study guides, etc. I guess the hting that I would say is that everything that is in the Bible is there for a reason, including the Jabez account. The fact that some have twisted it does not negate the fact that the Holy Spirit inspired its inclusion in the Bible. We just have to move beyond the hype and find out what the message for us is. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Richardjr |
In a recent edition of "Christianity Today" there are some responses to the prayer of Jabez. Have any of you read them? | ||
| Lydell |
Grok, I had a very different reaction from you to the Prayer of Jabez book! You really ought to give it another look. I think the author presented clearly his impression that "bless me" and "expand my borders" all have as their focus the desire to be used by God. The "bless me" was so that I can overcome my negative traits of focus on self, indifference, lack of love, laziness, or whatever our personal problems are so that we are more effective tools in the Father's hands. The "expand my borders" part indicates the willingness to allow the Lord to place us in whatever circumstances He wants us (not the ones of our own choosing) so that He can use us to minister. That said, yeah, I agree that the marketing stinks. That's a whole separate subject from what I wish you would look at here. (and it is an ongoing problem in the Christian community in many areas...) Really this, to me, is the same thing with the "What Would Jesus Do" hype. Man has a nasty little habit of grabbing hold of a title, an idea, and twisting it to the "what's in this for me?" bit. Hey, look at how many thousands of times "Amazing Grace" is played or sung and the people don't have clue ONE what it all means! It doesn't mean the message is wrong at all. The glitch comes in the hearing. I have to think that for very very many it comes down to the matter that the underlying message DOES touch on the God shaped vacuum in their lives. They recognize that something inside them is touched, is warmed. But they choose the warm fuzzies over the heart of the message. Same with Christmas. Nothing at all wrong with having a holiday that encourages family love and fellowship with friends. But, again, I think that is hitting at that God shaped vacuum and folks are trying to choose what they see as being the easy way to fill it. You know, I'll give away a part of myself by my power and you better return the favor, rather than surrender totally to God. I do know of several folks who have had their lives radically spiritually impacted by the Prayer of Jabez book. The Lord used it to open up a whole new area of spiritual growth in them (these were Christians, I doubt it could have a real lasting impact on any but the rare unbeliever since the message is for the believer in God! Heck, it is impossible for it to apply to the unbeliever since it is laying hold of God's power!). But is that any different from most books really? Have had people rave about some book that really spoke to them, that was used to really change them, and I read it and get nothing out of it. My son and I were really grabbed by an out of print book called "Through the Valley of the Kwai" by Ernest Gordon. Dan will still tell anyone that it is THE best book he has ever read. I believe it was that book that the Lord used to set him on fire for God. Loaned it to a friend of ours and he handed it back with a shrug and the comment "yeah it was interesting." Think what we get from a book has to do with where we are at that moment, and what the Lord is working on in us at that moment. Maybe it doesn't grab you or some others because the Lord is intent on teaching you something totally different right now. So grok, where are you in the south? Get any snow? Okay, here's our stinky memory. My son who graduated last year from college didn't get to go to school on a scholarship. Why? Why because the SAT test isn't given around here on any day but the Sabbath of course. And my husband didn't get to go through the graduation ceremony for his master's degree. Why? Why, because the ceremony was on the Sabbath of course! GAG Dan, when he was just beginning his spiritual awakening, went to a Pathfinder campout. We were already out of the church at that time, and he hadn't been around that stuff for seveeral years. He came home absolutely disgusted. It seems that the kids in his group were (naturally) bored out of their gourds on Sabbath and had started tossing around a frisbee. One lady had gone charging after a missed catch and snatched it up and gave them a bristling nasty lecture about how evil they were being. His comment was along the lines of, "gee, you could just feel the love and concern for us as possible unbelievers oozing out of her. Man, that would make anybody want to me a Christian." | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point about books, Lydell. While I actually started reading The Prayer of Jabez and for some reason just couldn't finish it, I know that a colleague of mine was profoundly impacted by it. I'm convinced that God often points us to books to read when we need them. During our time of intense study while we were coming out of Adventism, I began praying that God would show me what to read next. It was astonishing how books would come to my attention right when I was needing the particular insights in them. Some of the most outstanding ones that impacted me were "Like a Mighty Wind" by Mel Tari, a book about the Holy Spirit, and "From Prison to Praise" by--oops, I can't remember! I think it might have been Wilkerson, but not Bruce. That book pointed out how important praise and giving thanks are in the life of a Christ-follower. Another book that God brought to my attention was "Classic Christianity" by Bob George. Two years ago Richard went to the Christan book store and prayed that God would show him what to get me for Christmas. That was the book he got, and it came at exactly the time I was preparing a talk for our church's women's retreat. After reading that book, I completely changed the way I prepared that talk, and the inisghts in that book shaped the way I look at my identity in Christ. (By the way, I highly recommend the book to you all!) God really is faithful, even down to what we read! Colleen | ||
| Sabra |
Agreed, the Prayer of Jabez wasn't as interesting to me as to some but the next one to come out "The Secret of the Vine" really hit a nerve with me. It stressed to me that our purpose is to be fruitful and how when we are not, God changes things for us,sometimes drasticallly so that we can bear fruit to our maximum potential. Thought it interesting that as an Adventist I never brought one soul to the Sabbath. I do have to think though, that as our Father, God WANTS to bless us and we or at least I sometimes feel unworthy to even ask. That's why the Prayer of Jabez initially didn't appeal to me. The more I've thought about it, the less undeserving I feel, God loves us, the Bible says if the sinners give generously to their own children being sinners, how much more does God want to give to us? Grok, it is WONDERFUL to praise God and be thankful but face it, we need stuff! And He is overwhelmingly blessed by giving us our needs. And that, is spoken by a Baptist! ;) | ||
| Sammi |
welcome grok from another southerner, one who DOES have snow. yippee!!!! how about you lydell, do you have some of the magical white stuff? it's amazing here in atlanta, my 22 year old stepson (by the way i hate the word "step" but don't want anyone to think i'm old enough to have a 22 year old!!!) and his friends were out playing in the snow all afternoon, making sleds out of cardboard, throwing snowballs, the whole nine yards. one of the girls was mad at me because i didn't wake her up when it started snowing, i guess being from the midwest it's still not that big of deal to me, i forget what it's like for my stepkids, being natives and all. i appreciate the sharing about Jabez, as i thought something was wrong with me, couldn't understand all the hype, so many seem to have had their lives changed because of it. so i'm not so bad after all. ok, i'll share my strongest "unhealthy" memory, and it's from academy: staying up late at night talking about the end time, terrifying one another. one night it was so bad my best friend in academy just sobbed uncontrollably and hysterically because she was absolutely positive she would not be saved. to this day she is still in the church, was recently rebaptized, but is still so unsure of her salvation. anytime something major happens in the world she is filled with fear and panic. it's so sad. happy holidays to all, and if you're really lucky like me and are home for two weeks (does that include you colleen?) - ENJOY! love, carol | ||
| Fdauns |
Snow in the south..... I remember when we used to live in North Georgia we got a couple inches of snow once. I think the best sight of all was some good-ol-boys who had rigged up their 4x4 pickup, an old set of waterskis, and a tow-line to connect the truck with the man on the ski's. They were heading down the road having a grand time of it. Completely off topic I know but you should have seen it. ;) | ||
| Grok |
Hi Yaíll. I am in NC. The white stuff started here in earnest about 8:00 p.m. No school for the bunchkins tomorrow! Now I will be able to put that SUV to good use! I have really enjoyed reading all your perspectives on Jabez. Lydell, I appreciate your balanced approach. I am sure that the book does meet the needs of many people where they are. I agree with Doug222 that Jabez is included in the Bible for a reason. But I remember my old professor, Dick Winn, saying, "When A Way, becomes The Way, it becomes No Way. ( I heard he joined the ranks of the former SDAs several years ago!) During high school I lived in a self-supporting SDA community. These places tend to attract people with rather strange and oft times unbalanced ideas. One recurring theme was taking a single verse or idea and trying to build a whole world view around it. I remember one man who wandered through was convinced that the word "CHOOSE" was the one word that God could not resist. I donít remember all the details now, but if you included the phrase "I choose" in your prayer God was required to bless you in some way. I am not saying that Mr. Wilkinson is as extreme as the above example---its just that this book seems to dance awfully close to the edge for someone like me who is sensitized to this type of thing. I donít want to beat this into the ground, but here are a couple of reasons Jabez doesnít speak directly to me: First, I am not the type of person who needs a lot of "warm fuzzies"---I am a scientist and a philosopher by training and a realist by nature. Second, I am no longer satisfied with "milk" of the newborn Christian, but have moved on to the "solid food". Third, I tend to not be as interested things that are "all the rage" in either the religious and secular realms. Stay warm! | ||
| Grok |
sorry guys, forgot to include this link to an article on Jabez I found interesting: http://www.intimateprayer.com/page1002.html | ||
| Fdauns |
It is interesting to hear so many tales about the fear of the end times. Fear about not having all your sins confessed, fear about not being able to pass the test. Fear about not standing firm under the pressure and accidentally slipping and not making the grade. I know many people who have expressed these fears to me. Older people, younger people, peers. But the insistence is that "we believe salvation by Grace". I think that when you hear that from an SDA they really mean it. They just don't understand how diametrically opposed this sort of thought is to Grace. In fact you routinely find right in the midst of a Salvation by Grace SDA piece the little line that says that we cannot be saved by our own merits. We must depend on God's grace. "And grace is the power to keep His law". That is God gives us the power to keep the law. All we have to do is lean on grace and we can keep the law. Of course if you fail, or sin, then you must not be leaning on God good enough. This view is so strong that I once got in trouble for suggesting that we all sin and asking someone else in Sabbath school, "I'm sure you sinned sometime during the last week". Oh boy. Take my word for it. Don't do that, especially when they are a "pillar in the church" ;-) Grok, you mentioned at the self-supporting facility where you went getting drug out of class by burly men who held a mock court. I can remember being told as a kid by the church school teacher that when the end time came the soldiers would come and shut us down. If it happened today they might take us all down the hal and line us up against the wall in the church foyer. We might be told to renounce the Sabbath or be shot. And unless we renounced it they would shoot us. And it was all the other Christians who would turn on us, along with the government. Really, it seems in hindsight, the pagans and other world religions were more benign than other Christians. I can remember a play done by travelling drama troupe at an acadmey I went to where the whole story line was a bunch of SDA's hiding in a farmhouse in the country. The emotions and interactions, until finally they were discovered. The Sabbath was the point of the dispute. One was taken out and shot. I can remember in adult sabbath school not so long ago where the conference teachers guide mapped out, and the church I attended enacted, a courtroom scenario where folks were put on trial. This is so universal and uniform it is frightening in hindsight. I am involved in discussions in some other forums where a cadre of SDA's have taken root. Far more benign topics have come up and we all get the "we are just another Christian faith" blurb. Things get denied to outsiders and vigorously so by SDA's almost universally. This is true in almost any place I've got to see the interaction. But the things that are backed away from externally, and are decryed as the "fringe beliefs of the few" are so universal and unsurprising that if they were uttered in the company of SDA's they would not bring a raised eyebrow or objection. More than likely they would bring further observations along similar lines. This bothers me no small degree. I was discussing 9-11 with another SDA and they, while being completely outraged by the events and supportive of the response, expressed the view that they couldn't help realizing that one day it would be them and not the Taliban or Al Qaeda that "they" were coming to get. I guess I'm rambling again. Its one of my gifts ;-) | ||
| Grok |
My mother actually goes to church on Saturday, because she can't let go of the idea that she has to keep the Sabbath in order to secure her salvation. But she also goes to church on Sunday because that is where she receives fellowship and is fed spiritually. She was horrified that Bush won the presidency because he would bring the country several steps closer to enacting the Sunday laws. Needless to say I love my mom, but we don't have many discussions about religion or politics. | ||
| Jtree |
Grok, perhaps your mom recieves a double blessing then! | ||
| Lydell |
Grok, maybe it made a difference with me that I read the book before it became a super star. ha Really tho, it was one of those things that came along for me at just the right time. It spoke to me in a really powerful way, speaking to an area of searching (what IS God's purpose for me at this time? What can I possibly do now, here, for God as a stay at home housewife?). I guess it just helped cement in me the idea that it isn't only in the "big" things (preaching a sermon, teaching a Bible study, being a missionary)that we do that are ministry. Instead we should literally be aware 24 hours a day that everything we are doing is opportunity to minister, to reach out with the gospel, IF we are open to those promptings of the Spirit. I met a lady one day recently who told me that several years ago a pastor had told her about the prayer of Jabez (this was before the book was written, I believe). It was a time in her life when she had just returned to the Lord after getting into some really life damaging stuff. The Lord used it to break through the feeling she was carrying that maybe she was too flawed for the Lord to use in any kind of service. The world would see her as just a nobody who works at a minimum wage job in a hospital. She sees her work as an opportunity to serve God. She walks into a hospital room with a brilliant smile on her face carrying a food tray. Then takes the time to demonstrate the love of God by genuinely being concerned for how they are feeling. Even returns sometimes later in the day for a brief visit and prayer with those in distress. You know, your comment about the book maybe not striking you as anything useful because of your personality or way of thinking is a very good one. I can remember a time when I needed teaching in a particular area and had a couple of folks highly recommend a certain book. I could sit and read it and mentally acknowledge that what the author was saying was truth. But still it didn't really hit home somehow. It was very! frustrating, and I eventually gave up on it and instead casually picked up a different book I "happened" to have laying forgotten on the shelf (and had never read). It contained teaching on the same subject. But it was a totally different experience. THIS one clicked! I'll make another point tho. Sometimes we NEED to get the stuff from the opposite end of the spectrum. Those who tend toward the warm fuzzies teachings desperately need the cut and dried (to them) straight factual, teaching to keep them balanced. And those who tend to the logical bent can need stretching to take them into the area of seeing God moves on/through/with the emotions as well. I think that's what Christ accomplished in doing signs and wonders. It offended their minds, their logic, and challenged them to see something beyond the "logical" realm. Well, my husband announced there was snow this morning. And literally in the few minutes it took for me to get out of bed and dressed and looked outside, most of the stuff had already melted! Only time I ever remember us having snow here that stayed any time was during "the storm of the century". And I don't EVER want to do THAT again! I have NEVER EVER been so cold in my life! My saddest, most frustrating memory of the SDA church was the day in Sabbath school when someone brought up the "problem" of how to answer the question they had been asked that week, "are you saved." Of the 20+ people in the room I was the only one who pointed out that if they didn't know how to answer the question, then they had likely, in fact, already answered the question. The scriptures tell us that if we have received Christ, then we ARE saved and can come boldly to the throne. I'd pointed out the verses on assurance of salvation. Pointed out that the disciples seemed to have no problem talking about being saved. The teacher's final "word of authority" was "well, sister white has said that we must never say that we are saved, and we musn't but a question mark where God has put a period." GAG! That was the day I knew it was over. |
