| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 3:50 pm: |     |
Interesting thought, Lydell. I'd never looked at it quite like that. I do remember when I married Richard and found myself suddenly with a 2-year-old step-son that a Cradle Roll regular pulled me aside and told me I had to come and take my turn working in that department. I guess I was ignorant of the "requirements"--I just didn't respond. I figured I was teaching jr. high kids during the week at that time, and I needed to think adult thoughts at church.
I have pondered the fact that SDA women struggle for "equality", but in that struggle they become quite androgenous in appearance and behavior. Further, no matter how well they can act the part of a man in a man's world, they still aren't "equal". In the Christian community we've joined, women don't struggle for equality. Our particular church doesn't have women elders (I'm not endorsing this policy, just reporting it), yet the former Adventist women I know who attend our church are not bothered by this policy at all because women actually are honored and treated equally in a way we've never seen in an Adventist church. There are many educated, professional women in the congregation, yet they look and act like women, and there's no undercurrent of grasping or competition or inequality.
I've pondered this paradox, and I've finally concluded that when we are born again, God gives us our femininity and masculinity and endorses it with the authority of His Spirit. We are gifted by the Spirit equally and given equally important identities in Christ. There's no need to fight for our places because our places are given and assured by God.
BTW, I'm not saying women should not be ordained or be elders. I'm just saying that in a community of true Christ-followers, God gives us identity and belonging and His work to do, and he gives them to us all according to his will. He defends us; we no longer have to fight for ourselves.
Again, great observation, Lydell. It's interesting to ponder the differences between Then and Now!
Praise God for giving us our identity in Him!
Colleen |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 7:12 pm: | |
Yeah Colleen, I remember the very first day we went to an SDA church. I was met in the foyer by the pastors wife who invited me to attend the cradle roll with my son. He was about 5 weeks old at the time...which in his case meant that he shouldn't have even been born for 3 more weeks. All I could do is stand there blinking at her thinking, "okay, I'm going to take this child into cradle roll. This baby who has to be fed while he is sleeping because he is too weak to stay awake thru a feeding. And you are standing there telling me how good it will be for him and how much he will get out of it. okay...." Should have been another tipoff, huh? hahaha |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 7:49 pm: | |
Hello Lydell,
I need not buy jewelry or purchase makeup and such to let the evil one know Who my heart cries out for. For when I sing and praise and pray and worship my Only True Living God, Jesus Christ, satan throws darts at me. For he absolutely hates my adoration to Christ our King.
Yet I will not relent. Let the darts come, let accusations see me. Still, as an ambassador of our Mighty God Jehovah, i stand.
As to you ladies and gentlemen talking of things such as cradle roll, I know nothing of these matters and never, while attending the sda church engaged upon such duties.
Moreover, I wouldn't consent always to either conform to their dress codes and worship style nor would I be silenced (this caused much distress).
Basically, I never thought of myself as female, male, jew nor greek, free nor bond. Simply put, my objective always was to learn, and that I did. But not by the sdas. By God's Holy Word, slowly yes, but not in vain.
Still I cannot conform to any denominations traditions that are of but men. I read Scripture and Scripture tells me that I'm HIS and that my duty is to preach and teach the Gospel. Also it is my calling to love and in this arena is where I need much strength from above for I am weak.
Still I am not attending a denomination of any kind due to this stigma on women to keep silent. This is an impossible task for me. Keeping silent when something unscriptural is being put upon the hearers? Never will I remain silent unless God Himself silences me. Until then I remain in isolation as an outcast by many.
Even where I live.
This has me asking a question within. I should start a new topic and pose this question on it's own. Look for it and please anyone and all respond.
May our Mighty King and Saviour, Jesus Christ be with you all forever, amen.
DtB |
Grok
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 8:17 pm: | |
This site has an interesting way of reminding me of things.
When my oldest daughter was born I was still an SDA. I was young and naive...I had never been to another denomination...I had never even thought about the fact that there was no nursery for babies. I came up with the "brilliant idea" that we could start a nursery and take turns caring for the babies each week. It seemed so reasonable to me!!!!!! I was told in a very condescending tone by some "older women" that nurseries aren't a part of the SDA church because children need to learn to sit in church.
I spent the next couple of years relegated to the to "cradle roll" and the infamous "glass room"! Man, I hated that room...crackly little speaker that didn't half work. People just let their kids run around a scream...
I am a musician and so it was really hard when I was playing for the service....always having to find someone to hold the baby. People were nice about it...but I hated always having to wonder if someone I knew and trusted was going to be there that week.
Thank goodness I left an abusive marriage when my daughter was less than two and the SDA church when my daughter was about three.
The Lord is my light and my salvation!
Grok |
Sabra
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 8:45 pm: | |
The very last time I attended the SDA church I thought I would try to sit through church in the mother's room. (I always left right after the kids got done with SS) The pastor's wife came in and informed me that my two daughters then 5 and 8 would have to sit in church alone while I stayed in the room with my baby son. (not for lack of room since almost no one in that church was under 92) I told her, "you know what, we're just going to go" and go we did!! ;) |
Grok
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 8:54 pm: | |
That is just amazing!!! I am so glad you left. I am courious as to how your daughters reacted...
Grok |
Sabra
| | Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2002 - 7:16 am: | |
Grok,
They hated going to that church. They called the pastor's wife the nosey lady. ha! She always called and dropped by unannounced. Now, sometimes in the middle of the week they say, "I can't wait til Sunday!" They love church now! Praise God for leading us to a church where we feel at home. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 4:56 pm: | |
How interesting! My kids are teenagers now, but I have peripherally pondered the Cradle Roll phenomenon vs. the Nursery at our church now. I have concluded that the Sabbath Schools for infants and toddlers and the INSISTENCE that parents make their children attend and learn to sit still is a form of brainwashing. How else do you explain such counter-intuitive rigidity?
Colleen |
Sabra
| | Posted on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 7:14 pm: | |
Colleen,
It also takes the fun out of church. Remember being a kid and being bored to death? You sort of dreaded church, at least I did. It is the "legalistic way"-if it aint fun it must be holy. I remember telling my mom one time that I recongnized a lady at church from my Weight Watchers meeting (I was about 19) I said "I knew she must be Adventist because she's always sad and depressed and she doesn't wear any jewelry" ha! and I was still Adventist then! :) Boy, I really enjoy that nursery at church now! I can actually hear and participate in a church service! |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 4:24 pm: | |
That is so great, Sabra! You're right--it wasn't just bad for the kids!
Colleen |
Lucias
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 8:29 am: | |
This is somewhat related to the billboards.
I was surfing Present Truth Magazing, an SDA site, although like all of it that actually says anything material "not official". They had a button labeled "Antichrist Hotline" which led to this URL http://www.presenttruthmag.com/antichrist.htm
I followed it figuring I could call the antichrist right up and get the skinny on his plan. Well as luck would have it there was no phone number but a rather lenghty list of what the Anti-Christ teaches and how to tell the anti-christ. Its really a rather long list and trotted out as being "Biblical".
Ironically scripture says something about the topic and it is nothing at all like many of the items on that list :
18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life. 26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.
1 John 2:18-27 RSV
Now then the Anti-Christ is clearly laid out it his he who denies the Father and The Son. Anything that detracts from the Father or the Son of God, the Messiah the Savior, is of the Antichrist.
I would like to go one step farther with the above passage and observe the opening of verse 20, "But you have been anointed by the Holy One" that is the Holy Spirit. Verse 27, "But the anointing which you received fom him abides in you". Thus we have the Holy Spirit included as eminating from the "Father and the Son". Thus denying the Spirit is also a declaration against he father and the son and hence also part and parcel of the anti-christ.
Thus it is plainly seen why the church was so strong in its insistence on this point and why those who masquraded as Christians and taught this were so severely dealt with by the Church and rightly so.
Now at this juncture I wish to point out a few things about early adventism which you already know.
1. The founders were decidedly not trinitarian until later in their leadership roles.
2. They had as their leader a woman who violated every test of a prophet.
3. They initially taught against salvation by faith but rather by observance of the law. It was a "crisis" when in 1888 the prophetess said that Salvation by Faith was indeed correct. It has yet to fully shake out.
4. They started in a movement that was declaring a time for the return of Christ against the very warning of Christ that those who do this are of the devil and should be avoided. But this is glossed over.
The SDA church was from its beginning the work of the Antichrist.
By virtue of redifining what the Anti-Christ is, in their version he is "Anti-Law" they continue to muddy the waters and prevent the Antichrist and the things of the antichrist from being identified.
I believe that this was, is, and will continue to be one of the reasons that it was founded. Its not a teaching its simply why in the conflict between Good and Evil the Devil saw fit to bring it into existence.
How far off the beaten path do you all think I am with this ? |
Sabra
| | Posted on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 1:12 pm: | |
Lucias,
You are right. I have also pondered the scripture that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven...if it is the Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed for the day of redemption and the Adventists are teaching that the Sabbath is the seal...aren't they blasphemying (sp?) the Holy Spirit by putting the Sabbath in His place? I know there are many well-meaning, uninformed people who don't know what they are doing, but I believe there are some who know and choose to ignore.
Sabra |
Lori
| | Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 7:07 am: | |
Adventist are LOOKING FOR THE ANTI-CHRIST.
At the ascension of Christ the disciples were told to LOOK FOR THE RETURN OF CHRIST.
************************
Adventist are trying to spread the "Sabbath truth" before everyone is deceived by the anti-christ into observing Sunday.
The disciples were told to spread the Good News.
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The Adventist "key" to salvation revolves around the Sabbath day.
The disciples "key" to salvation revolves around the person of Christ.
************************
The devotion of the Adventist church to their message can be admired. They desperately want to save people they just don't have the correct message.
For the majority of Adventist, their message is sincerely sent out without knowledge of the error. Sabra, I believe you are correct that some know and choose to continue and cover up the deception.
Pray for them. Pray for the SDA church. Pray for the individual members that God will clearly show them His truth. Inspite of all the false doctrines the message of the Gospel can be made clear to these people.
He did it for us. He can do it for them. |
Lucias (Lucias)
| | Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 12:52 pm: | |
Age old topic but I guess its making a comeback.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27720
It was the topline story on world net daily right up until that apartment blew up in CA and I guess has been the topic of Bill Orielly segments on Fox News Channel.
The website that the bill board directs the viewer to is talking about the usual 666/pope stuff that you hear in every SDA church. They are offering a book that is sold in every SDA ABC store.
"The book, "National Sunday Law," uses the Saturday-vs.-Sunday Sabbath controversy to purport that the Roman Catholic Church's leadership is the enemy of true followers of Christ"
Yet the article, apparently the result of a call to a conference spokesperson, says that the church that put up these signs is a local church and one that is "shunned" by the main church body.
"Weathers is part of The Rogue Valley Historic Seventh-day Adventists, which is not connected to, and is shunned by, the more well-known Seventh-day Adventists. It's his belief that the seventh day of the week, Saturday, is the scriptural day of rest for followers of God that originally prompted him to post billboards. "
The thing is there is absolutely nothing on that sign that SDA's do not believe. They may quibble about whether it is the pope in person or the office of the papacy but in any case they do consider it Babylon, in leauge with the anti-christ.
If this was such a unorthodox view why is it the utlimate basis of the Revelation seminars, why is the book distrubted by church run stores etc ?
Why can the GC not be honest about what it believes and teaches.
This is troubling for a very important reason.
It is whats taught, it is what is believed, but it must be kept quiet. Why ? I suppose so they don't get a bad name. Does that mean the folks at the top don't really believe what they stand for and are working for some other goal ?
What other conclusion can be reached ? |
Clay (Clay)
| | Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 7:54 pm: | |
Hi Lucius,
I don't know about the people at the top, but I do know there are many SDA pastors who very definatley don't buy the whole SDA doctrinal list, but they still feel the SDA church is called for a special reason. I was a SDA pastor for 14 years and I know very well the internal struggle that many go through because they do not believe all the 27 doctrines. Many have put years into denominational work and feel that is all they know and are fearfull of walking away from the denomination. I have also talked to others that are far, far from being mainstream SDA 's but who justify their existance as an SDA pastor by thinking they can do more from within the denomination to bring about change than they could by leaving.
I am grateful to be out of denominational employment because I struggled for years with the ethics of being paid by an organization that I could not support 100%. Now I am really free to follow my convictions.
There are many very powerful and very wealthy conservative SDA's that would make such an uproar if the denomination was to make some doctrinal change. I believe many in leadership of the GC are afraid to rock the boat and face the scathing rebuke from the ultra-conservatives.
I honestly don't ever expect the SDA GC leadership to publically admit doctrinal mistakes. It just will not happen.The organization is too large now to make doctrinal changes even if the majority of leadership trully believe they should.
The World-Wide Church of God have my deepest respect for the major doctrinal changes they made a few years ago at a huge loss of membership.
I'm sure there are also leaders who are more concerned with their own retirement that doing the right thing about making changes in doctrines.
I do not believe that denominations were God's plan in the first place.
I am just going to move on in my faith journey with my Savior and just focus on my daily experience with the Holy Spirit and be open to be used by Him to love people to Him.
Blessings to you. |
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