| Author |
Message |
Sammi
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 6:18 pm: |     |
welcome sam - you did a great job with your post. sorry to cause any confusion, i'm about ready to change my name on the forum anyway, only started out as sammi as i was initially TERRIFIED someone that knew me might read something i wrote (at the time i was working for the church.) also, don't mean to copy chyna, but have always preferred to type in lowercase (lazy i guess) but was afraid to at first as it might give me away, that was hard trying to remember the caps all the time! gee, i feel like i've come a long way in the past year! even use my real name now!
doug, are you doing ok? also, sherry, haven't heard from you in some time, are you alright too?
hope i'm not annoying anyone, but, like sabra, i do not know how to change a subject, plus don't think it necessary just to ask about someone or bring up something trivial that requires no responses.....hope that's ok.
carol
p.s. sabra and sam, yo puedo hablar un poquito en espanol tambien. yo tenia una amiga puerto riquena cuando yo estaba mas joven (en high school) y estaba con su familia mucho. sus padres no pueden (??yo se es incorrect! still have a very hard time with past tenses) hablar en ingles, y por eso yo tenia aprender espanol. ahora estoy trabajando en una escuala con high school estudiantes que no pueden hablar en ingles (y problamente 90% habla espanol) y estoy practicando mi espanol mucho ahora! perdona si no estoy hablando bien, pero me gusta practicar muy mucho! |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 7:27 pm: | |
Welcome, Sam!
Colleen |
Windmotion
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 8:40 pm: | |
Doug, that Isaiah 66:23 verse is one of the most underlined by Adventists I'm sure. I had that verse quoted at me more times than any other to justify why the Sabbath should be kept. Why such a multi-faceted doctrine should be based on such a vague verse amazed me every time.
Dale Ratzlaff mentioned some valid points about that verse in his Sabbath in Crisis that sorted things out for me.
1. Isaiah 66:21-22 mentions things such as grain offerings, sons of Israel, priests and Levites. No Adventist would arege this text supports those things in the new earth, but they are placed in the same context as the sabbath in verse 23. Razlaff says Isaiah was writing about the new earth as best as he could, but he was using old covenant eyes and old covenant terminology.
2. Isaiah lists several new earth practices that should definitely not be practiced now, such as wolf and lamb lying together, lion eating straw, little boy leading a leopard etc. Obviously he didn't intend for those things to be mandatory now.
--Hannah |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 6:32 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Josh said:
"FAF please meet Sam. Sam meet the FAF forum".
I say:
Nice to meet you FAF forum:-) Thanks Josh!
Sabra said:
"Que Dios te bendiga, !Saludos Sam! Yall didn't know I was biligual too... "
I say:
°Muchas gracias Sabra!°Que Dios te bendiga a ti tambiÈn y enormemente! I see that you're bilingual but I'm 1.5-lingual:-)
And
Sammi-Carol, Could sammy have female gender in english? It's not so in spanish. Curiously the name of my wife is Carola but people call her Carol. I think that you don't have to be sorry for any confussion because I needed to chose a more different name to avoid that someone blame you for some one of my opinion (or spanglish:-)). Veo que tambiÈn hablas espaÒol:-)
Thanks Colleen for the welcome.
Thanks All,
Yahweh be with you,
Sam. |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 7:03 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Grok said:
"After just re-reading Revelation 21 and 22 it appears that John is talking about the CITY of
God in these passages---not the necessarily the new earth".
The relation between New Earth and the City of God could be seen in the following verses:
Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Holy city descend from God. Where it is arrive? Since John saw a New Earth, City of God arrive on the New Earth.
After reading the Raflatz comments on Isaiah 66 quoted by Hahnah, I'm more convinced of the idea that from new month to new month includes every day covered for two new months. Since this cycle never stop, we have that every day is included. Since Sabbath merely mean rest, every day will be a Sabbath day.
Anyway, we must be carefull to make assumptions on text highly symbolic. I'd prefer clear text of the Bible to establish a doctrine. For example, do you think that God wanted that a group of people, were dissapointed in 1844 after wait for JesusChrist, after complicated studies of a symbolic text? Jesus warned about that telling that He will appear as a thief in the night. You can compare a complicated text with a clear text. I'd believe in the clear text, unless the last one were contradictory with the rest of the Bible.
Other example a text of Ellen G. White which I've ignored when I've read by first time but I've accepted later as a contradiction with the Bible:
"I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and ***hid a mistake in some of the figures***, so that none could see it, ****until His hand was removed****" (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 74, paragraph 1).
Does it mean that God wanted that their faithfull believers believe a lie? I don't think so. God never use the lie (Titus 1:2). What terrible acussation against God!
So, we need start to understant the easier thing and God would be reveal us the most difficult if He think that we need it.
God bless you all,
Sam. |
Richardjr
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 7:10 am: | |
Doug, I admire your courage by talking to the pastor about your convictions. Spiritual issues are so heavily laden with emotion it takes a lot of guts and discipline to engage in a conversation with a person who differs with us theologically. I have some people I need to talk with and I always keep putting it off because I am afraid of hurting their feelings. |
Fdauns
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 7:19 am: | |
Sam_cstll makes a good point when he observes that in the New Earth every day will be a day of rest.
The command to work, as part of the curse of sin, was not given until after the fall. Prior to tht man, presumably, did not have to toil to provide food and shelter. Hence from what would he cease from doing ? Either before sin in the world or after ?
Welcome sam_cstll...... |
Grok
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 7:21 am: | |
Sam,
Not to beat this in the ground...
But, I didn't mean that the CITY of God was dangling in space somewhere...of course it is on the new earth when that is created.
My point was that while the CITY does not need light/moon/sun since that was where God abides, we don't need to extrapolate and say that there will be no moon/stars/sun around the newly created earth. I think we can all understand the "word picture" of a city that never sleeps.
Atter reading your post again, I think we are actually saying the same thing. I missed the NOT before existence (see your quote below)
"Seems to me that this doesn't talk about the not existence of moon or sun but of not neccessity." --Sam
I guess I am not very good at spanglish yet!!!
Grok |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 9:55 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Dear Grok,
Thanks for the clarification. I know that my spanglish is terrible and my spanish too, because, some times I'm careless in my writting. My life runs 1000 mph:-) In my Job, when I write a report or paper, I need that a second person read that before to send it.
Dear Fdauns,
You asked:
"The command to work, as part of the curse of sin, was not given until after the fall. Prior to tht
man, presumably, did not have to toil to provide food and shelter. Hence from what would he
cease from doing ? Either before sin in the world or after ?"
I think that in New Earth will work. For example I like music, math and perhaps, I'll do some of these things in New Earth. Perhaps, we will sow. I don't know. When I was SDA, I though that we will rest by ceasing this kinf of activities to be centered in worshiping. But, it's a huge assumption and we cannot base our christian life on assumptions. If God wanted that we keep Sabbath (since this is the point of those one who claim that Sabbath will be keeped in the New Earth), be sure that He would be more eplicit...It's clear in John 16:13 and 1st John 2:27.
A thing is clear: Jesus is our Sabbath or Rest everyday as Hebrew 4 says.
Thanks Fdauns for the welcome,
Yahweh bless you all,
Sam. |
Sabra
| | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 6:39 pm: | |
Isn't it wonderful that we can all interpret the rest in the same way? The same veil has been lifted from all of our eyes! Praise the Lord! When my mother insisted that there will be a sabbath in heaven I kept asking her what would we be ceasing to do? We won't work in a burdensome way, we won't need to set aside a time to worship, we will BE THERE!! The Sabbath was made for man, NOT man for the sabbath...Isn't that clear? Because of man there had to be a Sabbath!
Before man there was no sin, when sin came we needed a rest.....He came! It is finished. The fullness of time has come and gone. Glad we all can see how obvious that is!
Carol,
Tu hablas muy bien. Viviendo en Tennessee yo no puedo practicar mi Espanol y estoy olvidando. Quiero ayudar en la iglesia ensenando Engles a los Hispanos que estan alli.
Sam, Estoy segura que usted hablas Engles mejor que yo puedo hablar Espanol. Muchas gracias por tu "post" How did you come to leave Adventism?
Great to have you!
Sabra |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 4:55 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Sabra,
Cuando leo, por segunda vez algunos de mis "posts", veo que cometo errores b·sicos. Me falta mucho para que mi inglÈs sea bueno. It's good that you teach english. You asked: "How did you come to leave Adventism?"
I answer:
Well, When I was a SDA, I've claimed that Pope was an anti-christ since Apostle John talks about several antichrists. After, still as SDA, I modified my point of view and I've said that was the whole head of the Catholic Chruch since mediation of the priest is not only sufficient but it's necessary to obtain the God's forgiveness. I've claimed, they hidden to JesusChrist and provided a lot of innovations in the Jesus' grace.
On May 2001, after some conversations with a non SDA sister in Christ on a SDA Yahoo! Club (still as SDA), I thought: What is the difference between Catholic Church and my denomination? Is Jesus hidden behind an investigative judgement based on my behavior? (a new style of salvation by works) I understood that my denomination was risen as a second mediator between God, and therefore an antichrist too. So, I've decided to renounce and I could see a some contradictions in the Ellen G. White's writtings which I was willing to ignore when I was for first time. I've renounced on September 11, 2001.
Although I disagree with many statements in some web sites against Ellen G. White (I try to be fair), only one mistake is enough to see that she was not a God's messanger. For example, the quotation of Early Writtings in some of my recent posts, was noticed by me on 1994, but I assummed that I was wrong. It's amazing how a belief could kill your belief in your own perception of the things and avoid that you can believe in yourself.
Similar Ellen White's mistakes were discovered by me when I've read the book "101 Questions on Sanctuary and Ellen G. White" by Robert Olson, on 1993. Although this book try to defend her as God's messanger, it show evidences against her, its defense is not good. But, I was willing to ignore that by researching and telling myself: "I cannot be right". So I've silenced my mind.
Now, I decided to be more open minded and honest. It's not easy because our tendence is to manipulate the facts for seeing that we want to see.
I hope that could be answer your question,
Yahweh be with you,
Sam.
PS: I was reading your story! |
Grok
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 5:11 am: | |
Thank you Sam for translating Sabra's Spanish so the rest of us out here know what you are talking about.
I know it is fun to practice/"talk" in Spanish...but those of us out here who only remember a few words from high school are missing alot!
I appreciated your testimony. You came at it from an interesting perspective.
Grok |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 5:42 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Dear Grok,
I afriad that I've not tranlated the Sabra's spanish. So, I'll do that.
Sabra said:
"Carol,
Tu hablas muy bien. Viviendo en Tennessee yo no puedo practicar mi Espanol y estoy
olvidando. Quiero ayudar en la iglesia ensenando Engles a los Hispanos que estan alli".
Translation in spanglish:
"Carol,
You talk very well. I'm living in Tennessee and I cannot practice my Spanish and I'm forgetting that. I want to help in the church by teaching English to the hispanic people who is there".
Sabra said:
"Sam, Estoy segura que usted hablas Engles mejor que yo puedo hablar Espanol. Muchas
gracias por tu "post"
Translation in spanglish:
"Sam, I'm sure that you talk English better that I can speak speak Spanish. Thank you so much for your `post'".
I hope don't interpret the Bible as I tranlate:-)
You said:
"I appreciated your testimony. You came at it from an interesting perspective".
I answer: Thanks!
God bless you,
Sam. |
Sabra
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 8:05 am: | |
Sam,
That's really interesting, your comment about another anti-christ. I had sort of thought of EGW in that way. When I think of the fact that if something is not of God it is of the devil- I really have to re-evaluate a LOT of things. Such as certain television shows, certain beliefs within the churches, HARRY POTTER-no brainer, even my own choices in spending free time.
Grok, Didn't mean to exclude anyone, I'm glad that Sam has interpreted everything, we'll stick to Spanglish. ;) |
Sammi
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 9:49 am: | |
i'm sorry too! didn't mean to exclude, just get excited when i can practice my spanish with someone. sabra, if you want to practice your spanish or just plain talk (i'm in georgia, your neighbor) - email me at cdfussell@yahoo.com. have a good weekend ya'll!!! love, carol |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 2:16 pm: | |
Sam, You've just recently left Adventism! Isn't it wonderful to grow in grace and freedom?! What an interesting way you began to understand the truth.
Sabra, I have to agree with your comment about things being either of God or of the devil. That distinction has divided reality for me, too--if something even jokingly or lightly whitewashed the occult or immorality or non-integrity--you name it--it can't be of God. Have any of you noticed that choosing integrity in theology (i.e., leaving Adventism in favor of the gospel) makes other issues of integrity increasingly clear? It reminds me again of what Oswald Chambers says (I'm not quoting directly): you learn more from five minutes of obedience than you learn from months of studying a subject.
BTW, I find myself somewhat envious of all you who had Spanish in high school. When I was in academy (late 60's-early 70's) Spanish wasn't even an option, at least not in our academy in Oregon. We took German. You know, the research and science language, taught, I'm sure, because Adventists put such emphasis on being educated especially in medicine. I guess we were all going to read Freud in the original!? Has German done me any noticable good? No. Would Spanish be helpful to me? Often.
Vorsicht! Stosche (sp?) diene kopf nicht on der lampe! (Watch out! Don't bump your head on the lamp!) That's one of a couple or three helpful basic sentences that I remember!
Praise God for being our teacher!
Colleen |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 3:13 pm: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Colleen Said:
"Sam, You've just recently left Adventism! Isn't it wonderful to grow in grace and freedom?! What
an interesting way you began to understand the truth".
Me:
Yeah! It's wonderfull. I feel that I'm starting to be honest for first time in my life.
Sabra said:
"That's really interesting, your comment about another anti-christ".
Me:
Thanks! The word "anti" not only mean "against" but "instead". I see that denominations with trademark take the place of Christ. For example, I've notice that baptism in SDA and Watchtower denomination is more related with a membership than a expression of faith for our justification. Seems to me that denomination with trademark has this problem and I don't know one different in this point. The true Church of God is not an organization nor an earthly kingdom but the body of believers in the amazing Grace of JesusChrist (which is spreaded in many congregations, included those denominations).
Sabra said:
"I had sort of thought of EGW in that way".
Me:
I think that Ellen G. White is the SDA pope: so assummed infalible in matters of doctrine.
Sabra said:
"When I think of the fact that if something is not of God it is of the devil- I really have to re-evaluate a LOT of things".
Me: Yeah! That's true!
Sabra said:
"Such as certain television shows, certain beliefs within the churches, HARRY POTTER-no brainer, even my own choices in spending free time".
I think that some beliefs in the churches are more satanic than Harry Potter or TV shows. For my curiosity, I've watched Harry Potter and I found a movie more stupid than satanic (although, in my opinion Satan, in matter of choices, is the bigest stupid in this universe, he is fighting a lost war). The worst thing that happened to me with Harry Potter is the money that I've wasted in tickets for the cinema.
Have a nice Sabbath...I was kidding:-) But, what is the problem? JesusChrist is our Sabbath.
Yahweh bless you all,
Sam. |
Sabra
| | Posted on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 4:32 pm: | |
I'm hoping the Harry Potter phase doesn't last long, they were even reading it in class in my daughter's 4th grade. I asked that she be sent out of the room. The teacher didn't object to my opinion but ya know she goes to my church and the church strongly opposes Harry Potter and I can't believe she would do that! Anyways, witchcraft, spells, sorcerers, definately not a God thing. So like Satan to make something seem so innocent and harmless. Saw something on TV the other night about the rush of children to the "witches" to learn about spells and becoming witches. My bestfriends' sister-in-law to be claims to be a witch, they really have how-to-be-a-witch books! Ok, enough of that. Rambling......
Sam, you crack me up!
Have a nice weekend! |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 6:36 am: | |
It's Sam (excuse my spanglish)
Dear Sabra,
About Satanic things, I think that we cannot be focused in that. Our only focus need be JesusChrist. We are in Him or not. The commands in the Scripture about wrong things are to show us what sinner we are (Romans 7:13) and how big is our necessity of a Savior since we cannot see nor do every thing good (Romans 7:12, Galatians 3:10,11). Everything, included the church, could be Satanic if it's focused in that we can do or not. So, our message cannot be what is satanic or not but the only one Gospel (Galatians 1:8,9) and our Gospel is on JesusChrist rather than the damage that Satan could do.
Now, Peter warned as about Satan (1st Peter 5:8). But, the only way to be safe is to be awaked and praying to our Heavenly Father in the merits of His Son JesusChrist and He will free from the evil. And the Holy Spirit, not a church's opposition, will teach us what is dangerous or not (see John 16:13, 1st John 2:27).
In similar way, as SDA-former, I think that I cannot spend too time preaching against my old denomination nor Ellen G. White but preaching the Gospel. I need be focused in JesusChrist instead the errors of denominations or the world. If a person learn enough about Jesus, he/she is able reject any anti-Gospel teaching. Perhaps, he/she would not go to the cinema to watch Harry Potter but they wouldn't convinced by an anti-Harry Potter preaching but by the Spirit of God.
Why I went to the cinema to see Harry Potter? I confess that there weren't failures in the Gospel but I was willing to choice to go there, although my mind told me that could be unappropiate. When we go to Jesus we don't lose the ability to chose. Fortunately, nothing wrong happened exepct for the dissapointed of a stupid movie.
I'd dare to say that nobody obligated me to be a SDA but I've been willing to be there. Analogously, nobody obligated me to go out from there but I've been willing to listen the church. I believe that God always give us options.
I matter of commands, seem to me that I cannot say "I must do..." but "I chose do..." because we aren't under slaveness but we are in the love of God who convince us about what is good.
Yahweh be with you,
Sam. |
Sam_cstll
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 6:40 am: | |
Corrections:
"Fortunately, nothing wrong happened exepct for the ***dissapointment*** by a stupid movie.
"I'd dare to say that nobody obligated me to be a SDA but I've been willing to be there. Analogously, nobody obligated me to go out from there but I've been willing to listen the truth (instead church).... |
Sabra
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 7:30 am: | |
Sam,
I'm not judging your choice in movies. That is totally up to you. I realize that while one thing might be a problem to one doesn't necessarily mean that it will be to someone else. Some christians think we shouldn't put a Christmas tree in the house because of it's pagan origin, it is not an issue for me since I do not see it as a symbol of paganism. My cousin took her kids to see the movie and they read the books, I haven't preached any opinion to her either way as I don't want to see like an extremist. Apparently it's not an issue in her house. Now if she ASKED me, I might have to give her an opinion, but to "call her out" would be inappropriate I think.
I trust that the Holy Spirit will lead us in the right direction.
In His Love,
Sabra |
Grok
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 10:35 am: | |
Sam,
You wrote: "Everything, included the church, could be Satanic if it's focused in that we can do or not. So, our message cannot be what is satanic or not but the only one Gospel (Galatians 1:8,9) and our Gospel is on JesusChrist rather than the damage that Satan could do."
Absolutely!!! All I can say is Amen!!!
The "scarey" thing about satan is not the gross portrayals of evil that you see in books and movies (exorcist, etc) but the subtle way sin can permeate our lives and cause us to lose sight of the Gospel and Jesus Christ.
Grok |
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