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Doug222
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm curious as to how the rest of you have dealt with (or more specifically how God has helped you deal with) the "need to be right." After years (and in most cases decades)of belonging to a belief system who's most cherished treasure is the "rightness" of its doctrine or theological position, how have you avoided the trap of continuing to be dogmatic, but simply about a different topic.

Doug
Grok
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I have been thinking about your post...

At first I didn't exactly connect (maybe that's because I have been away from legalism so long!) but then it started to come back to me...being coached for years how to parrot the SDA doctrine...having it drilled into my head that the SDAs were the only ones who were RIGHT...They are even more RIGHT than God's own Word, the Bible. I was the "good person" who kept all the rules, toed the line...I had the RIGHT to be RIGHT since I kept all the rules.

Since SDAs are the only ones who are RIGHT, they have the huge responsibility of saving the whole world! All the other poor ignorant souls only have the Bible...

As has been mentioned in other discussions on the site, SDA-ism can be very self-absorbing. It seems that one of the outcomes may be a tendency to "need to be right".

All my RIGHTeousness is as filthy rags!!

After I left the SDA church I would still have pangs of fear that the SDAs really were right and I had made a terrible mistake (those have subsided now!) Thankfully, God's tender mercy, and infinate patience have cemented in me the realization there is no "grace, but" only "grace alone". This has made "me" blurry, and Jesus Christ and His sacrifice crystal clear.

Now that I don't have to be RIGHT and I can focus really meeting people where they are. Listening, and LEARNING, from their spiritual journeys. My heart and soul have been humbled and all I desire is to praise and worship Him.

Grok
Fdauns
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 6:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I don't feel the need to be right. I don't feel the need that much since I am right. Its only those who disagree with me that are wrong.... ;-)

But seriously you raise a good point. And Grok's comments about the wonderings also hits home.

Grok, Like you I grew up in the SDA educational system. All your life you are taught that they are right and everything else is a lie. Well 25 some odd years of that line of teaching from the cradle will have an impact on a person. I would worry sincerely about someone who could just walk away from an upbringing like that without seriously considering all the possibilities.

From time to time I do wonder. I go back and start looking at things. But it doesn't take very long for me to see what I saw that led me to reach the conclusions I did.
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I am learning--slowly--that it is more peaceful for my spiritual/emotional health to RELAX more and more in God's love and care and PRAY for His Spirit to guide and teach me... To give me courage when to speak up and when to remain silent... To take away my arrogance and pride in needing to prove things and have all the answers...

I love the song with the words:

"Live out Thy Life within me,
O Jesus, King of Kings...
Be Thou, Thyself,the Answer
To all my questionings.

Live out Thy Life within me,
O Jesus, King of Kings.
Be Thou, the Glorious Answer,
To all my questionings."

Grace always, :-)
Cindy
Richardjr
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is an interesting subject. If you feel you have been right all of your life about spiritual matters and then discover you have been wrong it causes a lot of emotional upheaval. I notice that I have become very cautious about accepting any new ideas. The grace of Christ and the Holy Spirit are so persuasive I finally realize it is better to accept Jesus and follow the Holy Spirit, then to become skeptical and cautious.
Grok
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A little healthy skepticism can be a good thing!

Grok
Sabra
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I guess at first I wasn't wanting to show anyone that I was "right" as much as how excited I was. Part of it may be that I was never sure I was right when I was an Adventist. I always thought it was rather strang that a small group of people had it right while other Bible studying Christians didn't have a clue. Now I would love to prove to everyone that I am right, that this IS truth, but I know I can't and I am just so thankful that Jesus chose me and that I responded to Him and GOT IT!! How many "elect" will hear the words "I never knew you"? How many others does He try to get through to that ignore His voice? There are plenty of people out there that want to hear the truth, your witnessing energy should be focused on them. When the SDA preacher came to my house and we talked for about 2 hours, he didn't agree with me but admitted I had a different perspective than he was expecting and when I told him that in 27 years of being an Adventist I never knew I was saved and now I couldn't be more positive, that my decision was without doubt the right one. I could see in his face that he was unsure of what he was telling me and he ended in prayer praising God that I had developed such a close relationship with Him. I just sowed a little seed and I don't have to be right as far as he is concerned, the Holy Spirit can continue to water the seed and I can rejoice that I AM right!!

Didn't you have the meeting today? How did it go? Oh, one more thing, I was a nervous wreck about meeting that pastor and I prayed for guidance in what I should say. The first thing I opened my Bible to and looked at was Luke 4:18-19 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has annointed me to preach the gospel to the poor...... When I got to church that night the preacher stood up and said that he had something planned but first had to read a word the Lord had given him for the congregation...It was, you guessed it, Luke 4:18,19.!!!!I 'bout fell out of my chair! I said Thank you Lord for the annointing and I wasn't nervous anymore and I spoke with certainty to that SDA preacher and he said he would go home and review some things and wanted to meet with me again(to prove me wrong) that was about 4 months ago and I haven't heard from him, guess he's still looking!

God be with you,
Sabra
Sabra
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I guess at first I wasn't wanting to show anyone that I was "right" as much as how excited I was. Part of it may be that I was never sure I was right when I was an Adventist. I always thought it was rather strang that a small group of people had it right while other Bible studying Christians didn't have a clue. Now I would love to prove to everyone that I am right, that this IS truth, but I know I can't and I am just so thankful that Jesus chose me and that I responded to Him and GOT IT!! How many "elect" will hear the words "I never knew you"? How many others does He try to get through to that ignore His voice? There are plenty of people out there that want to hear the truth, your witnessing energy should be focused on them. When the SDA preacher came to my house and we talked for about 2 hours, he didn't agree with me but admitted I had a different perspective than he was expecting and when I told him that in 27 years of being an Adventist I never knew I was saved and now I couldn't be more positive, that my decision was without doubt the right one. I could see in his face that he was unsure of what he was telling me and he ended in prayer praising God that I had developed such a close relationship with Him. I just sowed a little seed and I don't have to be right as far as he is concerned, the Holy Spirit can continue to water the seed and I can rejoice that I AM right!!

Didn't you have the meeting today? How did it go? Oh, one more thing, I was a nervous wreck about meeting that pastor and I prayed for guidance in what I should say. The first thing I opened my Bible to and looked at was Luke 4:18-19 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has annointed me to preach the gospel to the poor...... When I got to church that night the preacher stood up and said that he had something planned but first had to read a word the Lord had given him for the congregation...It was, you guessed it, Luke 4:18,19.!!!!I 'bout fell out of my chair! I said Thank you Lord for the annointing and I wasn't nervous anymore and I spoke with certainty to that SDA preacher and he said he would go home and review some things and wanted to meet with me again(to prove me wrong) that was about 4 months ago and I haven't heard from him, guess he's still looking!

God be with you,
Sabra
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, How was your meeting today? Did your question about "rightness" distill out of your conversation with the pastor?

Richard and I have talked on several occasions with members of our Friday study group that we have a built-in weakness to be arrogant. It's easy to replace the Adventist arrogance with the arrogance that now we see the truth they don't. I pray that God will protect me from deception. All of us are vulnerable to it; we lived in it for years. I also pray that God will empty me out of me and put his Spirit in and that streams of living water will flow out when I don't even know it.

I think the "rightness" thing is inevitable, to a greater or lesser degree, when we leave the church. The truth of Jesus and being born again is so overwhelming, and it puts the deception into such stark relief! God knows all of these weaknesses. I believe he wants us to submit our feelings of "knowing" and "being right" to him and tell him we need hinm to deal with them. Denying these feelings only feeds them. I acknowledge that being right is one of my most powerful and basic selfish impusles. God is definitely working on me to expose it to me in many different arenas, and it's something He and I are dealing with in me!

Waiting for a report on your meeting, Doug--Praise God for his faithfulness to us!

Colleen
Sabra
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

I don't agree that confidence in the Lord is a selfish impulse. He wants us to be sure. Now I am certain that I am wrong about a lot of things, doctrines, studies.....but an understanding of my salvation and a confidence in Jesus for it and knowing that I am saved is what I'm referring to being right about. When I wasn't sure and had my doubts and just asked Him to make it clear to me and He clearly led me to Hebrews 10, it said "...therefore do not cast away your confidence which has great reward"! That was pretty direct! Don't feel selfish about your gift, there's enough for everybody! ;)
His assurance is our Strenghth!
Sabra
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, I couldn't agree with you more. Confidence in the Lord is not selfish. It's our inheritance!

I wasn't very clear in what I was saying above. Let me try again. The issue several of us have discussed is the feeling we have had (each of us at various times) that now we understand what the Bible really says, we have caught ourselves feelingówellósuperior to the people of whom we were so recently a part. That feeling is quite separate from my confidence in the Lord!

No, I don't feel ashamed of my confidence in Jesus. But I have had to admit that I can be arrogant about my theology and Biblical "insight" now just as much as I could before. I've also had to admit that what I understand today may modify by next year or next month as God leads me and grows me. I want to state that this problem is not necessarily everybody's problem. But I know this feeling of intellectual arrogance is one God is working on in me.

And you know what? I don't think I'd be able to admit this (embarassing) problem if I didn't absolutely know that I have an absolutely secure position in Jesus. And, Sabra, thank you for emphasizing how confident God wants us to be. I always love the joy your posts reflect.

Colleen
Doug222
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Thanks for asking about my meeting. It went fairly well. I explained to the Pastor why I did not feel I could serve in a leadership capacity anymore. I explained that I cannot in good conscience stand before God's people and represent a system that I no longer believe in personally. By the end of the conversation, he agreed with me.

Our conversation shifted to how my beliefs have changed. I'm disappointed that a good part of the discussion focused on the Sabbath (I wanted to avoid focusing on doctrinal issues), although I was able to share how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath and is our Sabbath rest. He understood and agreed with that concept, but kept asking me that given my new insight, what role should the Sabbath have in a believer's life. He could not accept the idea that it is no longer an issue. He kept quoting Isaiah 66, saying that the Sabbath will be celebrated in the New Earth, so certainly it must still be binding.

He encouraged me not to make any rash decisions--because he was not convinced of my theological position. He suggested that before I make any final decisions that I should study thoroughly the writings of EGW. Yes, you heard it right. He believes that she was a Biblical prophet on the same level as Isaiah or Jeremiah and that we cannot discount the special insight that she received. I asked him if I should also study the writings of Jospeh Smith. He stated that there is no comparison between the two and that EGW meets the definition of a Biblical prophet whereas Smith's prophecies are simply satanic.

He also stated that a person should consider the impact of their decision to leave on those who remain and that they should not allow themself to become a stumblling block for others. He said that since there is no mandate in scripture that prevents a person from attending that they should continue to attend if it is going to cause emotional or physical stress on anyone who remains (particularly family members). I asked him if he would give the same counsel to someone who expressed an interest in the Adventist message during an evangelistic campaign whose family was resisting their decision. He said the circumstances are different. He said that the SDA Church has been given more light than other churches so he would encourage them to leave.

Essentially the conversation ended with him acknowledging that legalism is common within the church and that many members are not secure in their salvation, but I shouldn't "throw out the baby with the bathwater." I asked him what the "baby was." He said it was the Sabbath and EGW. I told him that I saw the "baby" as Jesus and that I was not throwing Him out.

It was a very civil conversation--kind of anti-climactic. I shared where I was coming from and he responded. In fairness to him, he responded the best he could considering he did not have the opportunity to prepare beforehand. I was somewhat disappointed in his responses, but he did the best he could considering what he was trying to defend. In the end he said he would like to sit down and talk again when we have more time and after he has had the chance to study the issue out a little more.

I'm not sure what I expected, but the important thing is that the most difficult part is over. I think this is a significant step toward enjoying God more fully. Thank you all for your prayers and support.

Doug
Sammi
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 5:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Doug, we will continue to hold you up in prayer. i can remember after announcing my decision it all became sort of "anti-climatic" - the first few weeks were really strange, almost surreal, i could hardly believe i'd actually done it, was scared, still a little confused, lots of emotional roller-coaster stuff. stay focused on Jesus (as i know you are) and we will all be praying for you. love and prayers, carol (p.s. Colleen - redlands is further than i thought! depending on what we do friday (jan 25) there is a slight possibility we will attend the fri p.m. meeting. thanks for the info! and i'll e-mail if we decide to come.)
Fdauns
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah 66, what a treasure.

From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. -- Isaiah 66:23 RSV

And this "proves" beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Sabbath will not only be binding after the New Covenant was completed but also after the New Earth.

But doesn't it also say "from new moon to new moon" ? So then that means we will also be keeping the New Moons in the New Earth. So then they are also eternal right ?

No that can't be because they were done away with as part of the ceremonial law.

Ok so then if they were done away with, yet they are mentioned here then that must mean this passage doesn't mean that the new moons will be kept in the New Earth right ?

Right.

So then why would it mean that the second section of the sentence was to be literal but the first section was not ?

My answer to my above conversation with myself it simply this.

"From month to month and week to week all flesh will come and worship me".
Lydell
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, sounds like a pretty typical meeting. Certianly the pastor gave you a clue of where his heart is when he told you that the "baby" you shouldn't through out is the Sabbath and EGW! How sad. And the suggestion that you can't make a decision without thoroughly studying the writings of white! My word, how appalling... Oh Lord, bring this man under conviction by his own words that his anchor is hanging freely in the ocean and not grabbing on the Rock!

You know, it is interesting that SDA's continually focus on that verse in Isaiah 66 and ignore the one in Rev. 22:5. I have yet to hear their explanation of how we can take literally the words "month" and "new moon" in Isaiah when Rev. tells us that there is no night in the new earth. Curious.

You know, truly it seems to me that the basis of all SDA doctrinal error comes from taking something from the prophecies (an unknown) and trying to understand the rest of the scriptures by that yardstick. Has anyone else ever thought about that? That's just totally backwards!
Sam_cstll
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's Sam (excuse my spanglish and don't confusse with Sammi)

Rev 22:5 "And there shall be no night there; and they ***need no*** candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever".

Seems to me that this doesn't talk about the not existence of moon or sun but of not neccessity. Anyway, would we need to rest in the New Earth? Notice that the word Sabbath, merely mean rest and
the phrase "from new moon to new moon", could be the all days of a months. Since that every day will be a rest in the New Earth I conjecture that
every day "all flesh shall come to worship
before God". Does it exists an unapropiate day to worship God?

Yahweh be with you,
Sam.
Grok
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After just re-reading Revelation 21 and 22 it appears that John is talking about the CITY of God in these passages---not the necessarily the new earth.

Anyway, I like Fdauns translation---from week to week and month to month. (don't worry I talk with myself too! ;-)

Grok
Sabra
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, maybe I'm not getting the preachers point in Isaiah 66...doesn't Sabbath to Sabbath include everyday in between? Isn't that the point? That we worship "Today"/everyday?!

How about Isaiah 1:13: Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me, The new moons and the Sabbath and the calling of assemblies-I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meetings.

Doug, I'm proud of you, give yourself a big pat on the back!

Sabra
Jtree
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forum I would like to welcome Sam (excusing his Spanglish) :-)

FAF please meet Sam. Sam meet the FAF forum.


Thanks for joining Sam.

God be with all of us.

Your brother in Christ
Joshua
Sabra
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Que Dios te bendiga, !Saludos Sam!
Yall didn't know I was biligual too...

Colleen,

You are too hard on yourself. I don't perceive you as arrogant at all. You are most gracious and I've noticed when things come up that you don't necessarily agree with you are very open-minded and non-condemning. I am blessed by your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures.
God bless ya sista!
Sabra

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