| Author | Message | ||
| Nate |
Recently, In Asheville, NC, some full sized roadway billboards appeared. "Saturday is the True Sabbath, Sunday is the Mark of the beast". There is some information and an 800 number to call. When I saw it, I felt a mixed set of emotions. First I felt anger. The well meaning SDAs that put the sign together have no idea how many people there are in the Christian community who are loving and fully devoted followers of the Lord. I thought of the people I go to church with each Sunday and serve with on prayer teams. The depth of spirituality far exceeds anything I experienced in Adventism over my nearly 20 years of ministry there. I felt angry in defense of my friends. Then I felt sad, because of the blindness that so many people are under in the SDA system. While there are many true gospel centered SDAs, many more do not understand grace, and truly believe their salvation is dependant on keeping Sabbath and other laws. I felt sad for the blindness and judgemental spirit that accompanies legalism whenever it shows its ugly head. Finally, I felt amused. I know many Adventists are embarrassed over the billboards. They are upset that someone would put something like this out in front of the world and make them look cultish. after all, that is what the signs do. People are offended and hurt by the signs and figure the people that produce them must be a little strange. So the Adventist mainstream is embarrassed. Why? Because some of the right wing fringe have made them look foolish. But the amusing side of this is that the signs do portray the truth of what the Adventist church actually teaches. I know the conference officers and denominational officials are not happy with these billboards, and many of the pastors and laity are too! But why? Because they would rather teach these things in an "evangelistic crusade" when they have a controlled environment in which they can teach their doctrine in a way that smoothes the way before they get to the real message. The traditional SDA series will take several meetings before getting to the Mark of the Beast. The sad/amusing truth is that SDAs are truly a separatist organization that does believe that they are the only ones that have the truth, and all who do not keep Sabbath will ultimately be lost and recieve the mark of the beast. So I hope and pray the our brothers and sisters who are still in the SDA system will stop and take notice. It is my prayer they they will study the scriptures and make the clear teaching of the New Testament central to their theology. Then, if they choose to keep a Sabbath on Saturday, fine, but let it not be with judgement and exclusivism. (Rom 14:5-6) God bless, In Christ, Greg (Nate) | ||
| Doug222 |
Greg, I always enjoy your posts. You have an amzaing ability to cut to the chase, but to say it in love. I agree 100% with your statement that conference officials and pastors are not happy with the billboard because it hinders their "witness." How many times have I been involved in an evangelistic crusade where we were carefully coached (instructed) before the meeting began about how to act during the meeting. In some instances the instructions were even put in writing, and the minister went over them point by point from the pulpit. Some of the things I remember are: 1. Don't attempt to answer any questions. If someone asks you a questions, refer them to the evangelist or his team. 2. If an appeal is made, be sure to come forward. A crowd draws a crowd. 3. Make sure you do whatever the evangelist asks (i.e. completing decision cards, fill out the lessons etc.). 4. Do not move ahead of the evangelist (i.e. don't talk to a "prospective member" aout tpics that the evangelist has not covered yet. 5. Don't use coliquial (sp) expressions like "Happy Sabbath." During one meeting, I was tasked with procuring a banner advertising the meeting. I did as I was asked and had the banner posted on the side of the building. When the team arrived, they wanted us to order another banner to place on the front of the building. You guessed it, they wanted it placed right over top of the churches sign. I reminded of the words of the Apostle Paul, "Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing." In His Grace Doug | ||
| Fdauns |
Doug, Good passage and relevant. This is the standard MO for doing "Evangelistic" work and has, from what I've seen, always been that way. When you send out the flyers, you don't put the SDA name on it. When you have the thing you remove all SDA marked material from the public areas of the facility. I too have seen the covering of signs. The unknowing came to the "Prophecy Auditorium". Of course when scrutiny comes about this sort of thing cover can be immediately sought behind the mantra that "SDA's don't teach this and don't encourage this". Instead the various evangelistic agencies are seperate legal entities not reporting, officially, to the church. They are hired by local congregations. Thus the church is shielded from the actions that they do control in a convienient shell game. And Greg, your observations about the double standard resonate with me. It is an undeniable fact that there are, to a large degree, two standards regarding belief. What you express internally and what you express externally. Of course this isn't an "official teaching" there are no official teachings afterall, inluding the 27 fundamentals. The movement that proclaims "The Truth", "The Message" doesn't officially believe anything. Sorry ranting sidebar. This double faced behavior is not "instructed" anywhere, outside perhaps the organized efforts with seminars, but it is a fact. I've thought about this and I can only conclude it is a survival instinct. If you are going to interact, as an SDA, with other non-SDA organizations, members, etc. You simply cannot espose the things that do form the fundamental components of SDA end times view, historical view, etc. Time and time again in various internet forums I have seen SDA's insist that they do "NOT" believe something that was attributed to them. This is instead attributed to the "fringe few","fanatics", whatever. But had this same idea been expressed internally to a group of only SDA's no eyebrows would have been raised. Instead agreement and further comments along similar lines would have been expressed. This is far worse, IMHO, than simple calculated deception. It is deceptive behavior engaged in by those, for the most part, completely oblivious to the fact they are doing it. It bothers me no small degree. | ||
| Sabra |
That is amazing to me Doug, that they asked you tocome forward if an appeal was made. Like you were the member of the congregation? That is blatent deception. Well, I think I told some of you about my friend who went to the Revelation Seminar not knowing what denomination....she is Pentecostal and was very confused about the state of the dead, sabbath etc. she was really upset that she hadn't known this before. She was thinking of joining since they had so much scripture to back them up. Thank God she had the faith to just ASK God before making her decision. She said she was praying in her car for God to please tell her what to do and she heard 2Peter3:14, then she heard it again, she said it was so definate she had to pull off to the side of the road and read it...."Therefore beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without sopt and blameless, and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles,speaking in them of these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen I love the way God used a text written 2000 years ago to relate so exactly to the question she had. That text still gives me chill bumps and really makes me worry for the SDA's. Guess when the Antichrist comes and there's no Sunday law they'll maybe realize the Mark of the Beast isn't Sunday. | ||
| Richardjr |
Having read these posts brought back a lot of memories. They produced a wide range of emotions. During the years I spent as a SDA pastor I worked with 8 or 9 different evangelists. A few were conferece evangelists, but most were from evangelistic agencies. I could bore you to death about some of my experiences. What all of you have said so far as been true. We would start in a nice hotel convention room or a local university lecture hall and then after a week or so move back to the church. We would also cover our church sign with a sign made to fit in with the evangelistic series. Then we would take out the church hymnals, all the literature racks, and anything that would make people suspicious. Then I would instruct the church members what to say and how to behave just like the above posts. I remember one time we had so many "intersts" that near the end the evangelist and I were putting in 20 hour days to make sure we could baptize as many as possible. I noticed something within me started to balk at such behavoir in the mid 90's. I wish I could tell you that I stood up to that dysfunctional behavoir and brought people to a better relationship with Christ. I made some attempts but I started my own set of dysfunctional behavoir which reulted in my termination from the SDA pastorate. If there is anybody currently in the same situation, I would humbly suggest to be true to Christ and not allow the wiles of the devil to get to you. | ||
| Doug222 |
Sabra, In fairness to the church, the appeals they asked us to come forward for were "general" appeals. Of course this was manipulative in and of itself. Several general appeals would be made early in the meeting, i.e. do you want to be ready (whatever that means) when Jesus comes, if so, come forward. After several of these, strategic specific appeals would be made. One of these appeals invariably would come after the Sabbath message. I also remember one other instruction that was frequently given. Say amen frequently. This way, those who may have doubts about the new information they are receiving would see that it makes sense to "everyone else." As Fdauns said above, the church will readily admit that these abuses occur, but will not accept responsibility for making any changes. A recent Sabbath School quarterly was devoted to teaching the "Pillars of our Faith." The entire quarterly was full of acknowledgements of the shortcomings of the church (i.e. lack of love, legalism, etc.) however they were all qualified by the fact that "we have the truth." For me this was one of the last straws. I think it may be that the organization has become so large and bureaucratic that it is nearly impossible for it to change at this point, unless they do something drastic like the World Wide Church of God. Their public admission of being wrong cost them dearly in terms of money and membership (the two standards by which the SDA Church measures success). I do not see the church being willing to do that. One last point and I will quit rambling. My experience has been that the evangelistic teams place great emphasis on baptisms at all costs. In more than one meeting, there were more rebaptisms than there were bapisms. At another meeting, the numbers were particularly low, so the team placed increased emphasis on baptizing all of the children in the church. Anyway, I guess I am just venting. Doug | ||
| Sabra |
I think there should be a book written entitled "Looking Back"--uncovering the odd, the dysfunctional and the obcenity of restrictive religions. HA! We should be guests on Oprah | ||
| Lydell |
Yow Sabra, that would be really embarrassing to have to admit we put up with the garbage for so long! Okay how about this one. Remember, we live in the deep south here. At one Revelation Seminar, the flyers were sent out to a different section of town than the one the pastor had intended. Guess who came to dinner? haha That's right, the turn out was over 80% blacks coming to this seminar put on by the "white" church. The pastor quickly told us not to tell anyone in the church about this development! You know, those people knew their Bible. When we got to the meeting about worshipping on Sunday being the mark of the beast, one elderly man stood up very agitated and said to the rest of them, "hey, I TOLD you that was what they were going to say, now didn't I?" They didn't come back. Except for one sweet lady who did keep going all the way to the end, and then came to visit the church. Bless her heart. She had no way of knowing that we had set up a whole network of folks to be next to her the whole day because we knew that, without a shadow of doubt, someone there would say something totally offensive to her if they had a chance. Isn't that sick?! And then there was the series where we had a couple ask for baptism. The pastor and evangelist went to visit them at home to talk to them beforehand. The pastor told us later that he didn't feel sure they had even a bare grasp of salvation and asked them to wait awhile until they could talk somemore. The pastor was out of town one week (that wasn't too uncommon since he pastored 3 churches!) when the evangelist decided to go ahead and baptize the couple without telling him (to his credit, the pastor was furious when he found out later what had happened and confronted the guy in no uncertain terms). But first! before the baptism could take place, the evangelist and head elder ushered them into a room and told the woman that before he could baptize her, she would have to remove her fingernail polish. The head elders wife was there with a bottle of polish remover that she had at home (now there's an interesting little irony don't you think!) and "removed" the polish. Actually, she did such a crappy job it was smeared across her fingers. When I saw this poor lady coming out of the room where they had been, she was obviously terribly upset. Hubby and I went to visit them that afternoon when we heard what had happened. This poor woman was totally humiliated. She vowed never to return, and they didn't. (Which was likely a very good thing.) The woman kept saying, "all I wanted was to be baptized. I never said I wanted to join your church." She obviously went away from that experience with the impression that she couldn't be acceptible to God! You want to know the really sad part about all of this? These were people who were desperately in need of salvation. I learned much latter that the husband had returned to his alcoholism, and I really suspect he was abusing his wife by then as well. Here had been an opportunity for someone to be turned on to God, and instead they were turned off to church, assuming this was common behavior for "church". No, the stories just are too stinky! And doesn't it make your heart melt that the Father has forgiven all of us for being a part of even these kinds of things? Thank you thank you thank you Lord for your mercy! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Richard Jr.óI just want to say how glad I am to see you back! Greg--your point about the billboards really being the truth about Adventism is so well stated. As Richard often says, Adventism is a moving target. The bottom line and doctrines never change, but the way they package themsleves and explain themselves and the vocabulary they use are always subject to change depending on the current climate in the religious community. Doug--what amazing pointers for the lay helpers at an evanglistic crusade! During this past week Richard went to the NAD website to do a bit of research, and the homepage has a statement proclaiming that Seventh-day Adventists are a maintream Protestant denomination that stresses healthful living and the soon return of Jesus. How many people do you know who are prepared to disagree with that? Perhaps the worst thing about Adventism's methods is the covertness. What you see is not what you get. I'm convinced that Adventism's top officials know what they're doing. They know they're hiding reality from the people, and they know they're not about to change Adventism's doctrines. If they did, Adventism would cease to exist. Instead, they'll continue to rationalize and give the church "face lifts" so it is palatable to the public. I have often felt exactly what Lydell expressed above: praise God that he forgives us for having been a part of the deception, however knowingly or unknowingly. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 |
Colleen, you said: "I'm convinced that Adventism's top officials know what they're doing. They know they're hiding reality from the people, and they know they're not about to change Adventism's doctrines. If they did, Adventism would cease to exist. Intead, they'll continue to rationalize and give the church "face lifts" so it is palatable to the public." Truer words have never been spoken. In fact, I have a quote (believe it or not) from the recent introduction to the Sabbath School quarterly that dealt with the "Pillars of Our Faith." This is as close as you will ever get to pinning them down: "...we call ourselves Seventh-Day Adventists. But who are we? Why are we here? What's the purpose of our movement? How do we justify our existence? With so many other Protestant denominations out there, why the Seventh-Day Adventist Church? The answer is, really, simple. Our identity is intricately tied in, if not inseparably linked to, our message. What we believe and what we do with that belief make us who we are and justify our existence. Without our message, without our distinctive teachings, we would wake up one day and suddenly discover we're of no more importance or significance than a beetle. ...Lesson author Dr. Joel Musvosvi, a native of Zimbabwe and (as of the writing of this Bible Study Guide) ministerial secretary of the Eastern Africa Division understands these concepts. Thus he defltly covers the teachings that give our identity, purpose, and call. He covers a lot of ground in the lessons. But that makes sense because as Seventh-Day Adventists we have a lot to say. And as long as we keep believing it, as long as we keep saying it, our identity is sure..." So there you have it, the purpose of the Seventh- Day Adventist church is the preservation of its unique heritage. As I said, studying the lessons in this particular quarterly were the last straw for me. I realized, perhaps like never before, how perverted our doctrine is, and how it has overshadowed the true Gospel. Its not unlike those who espouse the belief that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved. Rather than the Spirit testifying of Jesus (as promised), it calls attention to itself. In this case, rather than the church pointing people to Jesus, it points them to itself as the only purveyors of truth. I solicit each of your prayers in the next few days. On Tuesday, I have a meeting with the Pastor to officially step down from all leadership positions. Mentally, I have not been a Seventh-Day Adventist for quite some time. I have been quite a vocal champion of the Gospel of grace over the last year and it has caused more than a little bit of conflict within the last year, however, most people did not know the full extent to which I had rejected the Adventist's message. My intent was to finish the leadership committments I had made in 2001. Over the last few weeks, circumstances have caused my views to become much more public. Even if I wanted to continue to serve, I do not think it would be possible (I believe this is confirmation from God that it is time to move on). I know that I have been threatening this for some time now, but it appears the fullness of time has arrived. I have mixed feelings--a sense of relief and freedom, but aprehension at the same time. If there was even a trace of remaining doubt that somehow I could effect change from within, this particular discussion has helped to put those doubts to rest. I thank all of you for your support and prayers. In His Grace Doug | ||
| In_his_service |
Go in peace and in the strength of His name, Bro. Doug. Sometimes it takes a long time to see the truth. Some never choose to see it. As Jesus said, "All the Father gives me will come to me, and those who come to me, I will never cast away." There is nothing so sweet or solid as the Gospel of Grace. You will find good solid brothers and sisters "out there". "Let not your heart be troubled and never be afraid". In His Grip Thomas <>< | ||
| Cindy |
Greetings again...:-)) For those who are considering leaving Adventism for either one reason or another, there is an article in a recent "Adventist Review" (December 27, 2001) by Clifford Goldstein that pretty well sums up the Adventist mind-set... Check it out if you find a copy. (We no longer subscribe, but catch up on them occasionally at relative's homes.) Goldstein asks, "Where would you go?" He writes, "Depending on your theological perspective, either the Seventh-day Adventist Church is filled with the same earthliness, compromise, and accommodation that ruined Israel in the first Temple's period, or (coming from the other side) the Adventist Church is as dogmatic, insular, legalistic, and unprogressive as Israel in the days of Christ." And here is the clincher: After analyzing the beliefs of other possible churches versus Adventism, he writes, "What I am saying, however, is that the differences between Adventism and these churches are still great enough to limit severely the options of someone who, frustrated with the Adventist Church, wants to leave and YET MAINTAIN ANY THEOLOGICAL INTEGRITY." (italics supplied) I realize he is talking about the disagreements between the two camps within Adventism; the so-called "evangelical, grace-oriented" Adventists who fight against the severe legalism they perceive... or the more "historical, back to the pillars" type Adventists who struggle with the worldly compromise they see. Where can they go? But the conclusion remains: if you leave, you limit severely the possiblility of maintaining "any theological integrity"... This article fails to mention the many, many, MANY, who have left (STUDIED their way out of the "distinct" doctrines) and HAVE maintained their "theological integrity". Joined other Christian fellowships and have maintained the best "theological integrity" possible...a continual 24/7 REST in God's care. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Grok |
My prayers are with you, Doug. You have a more difficult task to extricate yourself than I did. I just never went back...and no one ever called!!! Doug, I hope you have found supportive fellowship as you go through this transition. I am so blessed that the Lord led me immediately into a bible teaching, Spirit filled fellowship. Having gone to church all my life it was amazing to me to see how ignorant I was as to what the Bible actually says, and how important it is the accept the Bible as the sole authority and as a consistent, unerring revelation of God's love and plan for His children. I had been taught all my life that the Bible was full of mistakes...you know...translator mistakes like commas in the wrong place, etc. What a terrible thing to say that God's own "logos" that has come down through time is in error and that the SDAs are the only ones that have the correct interpretation! A Mormon temple was recently built in our area (this is a BIG deal since there aren't that many actual temples). Our Pastor did a great study on the LDS and their doctrines (they are similar to the SDAs in alot of ways---started about the same time, special revelation from God, health message, family oriented) One of the key features is that the LDS are trying very hard to portray themselves as "mainstream" protestants. A group of us brave souls took the temple tour they offered to the public (no non-LDS are allowed in after the temple has been dedicated). The high quality video they showed started out sounding very "mainstream" but towards the end they threw some of their strange doctrines (spirit babies and each man being a "god" on his own planet). But they went over them so quickly if we hadn't been already introduced to the core doctrines by our Pastor we may not have really noticed. Well, in case ya'll hadn't noticed yet...I also tend to ramble..."meeting" all of you, I fear I am like a kid with a new toy!!! Grok | ||
| Sabra |
A well meaning pastor of the SDA church sent me a message entitled "Adventism we have a problem" He didn't realize I had left the church. He was the only pastor I ever enjoyed hearing, you may have heard of Tony Mavrakos. He was a Baptist preacher for 27 years and somehow converted to Adventism. He now travels across America on a Harley preaching. Anyways, the massage showed a table of growth comparison between the SDA's, LDS, JW and Baptist. The SDA's were at the bottom of the list with 4,421 houses of worship, 861,860 members and cost per member (to convert)$2145.00!! LDS had 11,315 churches, 5,113,109 members and $63.00 cost per member, JW: 11,257 churches, 990,340 members and $3.27 cost, Baptists: $41,099 churches, 18,851,756 members, and $87.50 cost per member. He goes on to say that on his last bike trip across America people had never heard of SDA's, they mentioned that the JW would walk 1000 miles to save a soul. He states that the only two outreaches the church had, ingathering and colporting are done away with and that the Revelation Seminars are "clickish" (cultish might be a better word) I think this is one more piece of evidence that the Adventist movement is failing. I wrote him and haven't heard back from him, of course I gave my personal testimony and thoughts and I also told him he was the only Adventist I had ever seen give an alter call after every sermon, and I recognized a burden for souls that I don't generally see in Adventists...hey, he's basically spreading the gospel as he understands it, like a true disciple, door to door and community to community. I hope his studies show him that indeed, Adventism has a problem... | ||
| Sabra |
Doug, I also want to give my support for your decision. I know it can't be easy, especially as involved as you are in the church. I can surely identify with your wanting to change or help them, I struggle with this a lot, but I'm learning that it not our responsibility to change people, only to sow seeds for the Holy Spirit to grow, and to be the best witness we can be. I trust the Spirit will be with you on Tuesday and I am anxious to hear how it goes. God Bless, Sabra | ||
| Lydell |
You know Sabra, my guess would be that the reason the guy can stay an SDA is likely because he IS travelling around all the time. For him it will be much easier to brush aside the doubts, the errors, and inconsistences as unimportant. If you yourself are beginning from an assumption that everyone who is a leader in your group has the same grasp on the gospel as you, then you are going to brush alot of stuff aside telling yourself it is all peripheral issues. It's when you are stuck where you rub shoulders with them on a regular, continuing basis that you come up against the problem areas in a harsh way. Much easier to actually see the glaring doctrinal error when you hear it spouted from the lips of those who are condeming true believers in Christ. That way it becomes a wakeup call that something isn't right. Traveling around, I would imagine you can just tell yourself "gee, that guy has a problem" or "gee, that congregation isn't very loving". Doug, keep us posted on what happens. It may not seem likely to you now, but honestly a few months from now you are going to be weeping with gratitude that the Lord got you OUT of there. Freedom is so incredibly sweet! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Doug, we will be praying for you, that you will speak with authority and have the peace of Jesus. I understand the anxiety--God is faithful. You will "walk off that cliff," and you will discover that even before you get home from the interveiw, God is holding you. The freedom that will come from acting with integrity is astonishing. As Oswald Chambers says, you learn more from five minutes of obedience than you learn from months of studying. (By the way, thanks for the quote from the SS Lesson Quarterly. Amazing!) We look forward to hearing about Tuesday! You are not alone! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker |
By the way, it's good to see you back, too, Cindy! Welcome! Colleen | ||
| Nate |
Doug, we will be praying for you. Even though we are still looking for work and living by faith since leaving the SDA ministry, (we thought we had two openings and now it looks like one has closed and the other may not be open. It looks like we may be starting over in the job search) we would not trade the faith journey for anything in the world. We truly have been embraced by the larger Christian community and have made wonderful spiritual friends. Some others from Adventism have been growing and studying as they explore the true implications of the Gospel. Onde of the greatest blessings has been in our two boys. Aged 9 + 11. They were commenting the other day how much more they are enjoying church and are excited about how God answers our prayers! The older one the other day, said, "Mom and Dad, I know we prayed a lot and stuff before we left the Adventist church, but now we really pray! I like church and worship more. God is really blessing us!" What more can a parent ask for! So Doug, I can say from first hand and current experience that you will be blessed by following your conscience. I Samuel 2:30 "The one who honors me I will honor!" God is faithful! Grok! Welcome! Glad to have you on the forum! God bless all of you, our fellow FAF friends and prayer warriors! In Christ, Greg | ||
| Sammi |
Doug, our prayers are with you also. i've been off line a few days, thrilled to learn you are moving forward in faith. i have not had a moment's regret over my decision. am seeing my sda friends more and more, can sense when they are anticipating i may come back to just visit, etc., i know (ok, i'm almost certain) they think i am just "searching" right now, and will be back (did i mention that recently on the forum, cannot remember, but one of them told she was so proud of me for what i'm doing because at least it shows i'm "searching" and a lot of people just don't do that!) i cannot imagine ever going back, i had assurance of my salvation that i didn't have growing up, since 1993, but that security now is so different, no more guilt or doubts, in church yesterday i was so overwhelmed with the sense that God loves me unconditionally, He has saved me, i am His! no more worrying about every little sinful or selfish thought, that maybe somehow that has set me back somehow, has pushed God farther away - i just pray for my sda loved ones, esp my family, that they will have this total peace and confidence in their salvation - like sabra said, we cannot change their minds or convince them of anything - i just continue to pray for them. Colleen, what can you tell me about the FAF group in the L.A. area? my husband & i are going to be in Los Angeles on business in a few weeks, and i'd love to attend church with the FAF group there, i really have no similar fellowship here in my area (Atlanta) - "ya'll" on this forum are my FAF support. seems like i remember a group met on friday nite, otherwise we'd just love to attend the church the FAFs in the area attend on sunday. love and God's blessings to all of you! Carol |
