| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker |
Carol, our FAF group is in Redlands, about 70 oir 80 miles east of Los Angeles. It meets on Friday evening at 7:00 at Trinity Evangelical Free Church. Most of us attend Trinity as well, but some of our group attend a nodnenominational congregational church near Riverside. If you wish to come to church on Sunday at Trinity or attend on Friday or both, email the webmaster, and we'll get back to you with directions, etc. We'd love to meet you! Greg, I'm sorry to hear about your job possibilities. We continue to pray for you. I had a phone call this weekend from an Adventist friend that I have considered really special. I used to talk to her regularly, and she has always been delightful. When we left the church, she was upset, to say the least. She is not a conservative Adventist, but she is a strong cultural one, and she has great loyalty to the church while simultaneously having serious questions which she doesn't want to explore. She was herself, as usual, except I realized the depth of her distress when she commented to me about an event she had planned, "I would have invited you except it's right during your church time." I let it pass, but we continued to talk, and then she saidówith a chuckleó"if you hadn't left our circle you could have come and eaten with us, butÖ" I said, "But I would come!" She made a somewhat inarticulate excuse, and the subject was closed. She made the same comment about something else she would have asked me to do, and when I remonstrated, "I would still come!", she replied, "But wouldn't it be difficult?" When I said no and she had no clear answer, I realized that it would most likely be difficult for her. I realized that even though she still wants to have contact (even if it's greatly reduced), she's quite angry or hurt or rejceted-feeling at what she probably sees as a betrayal. It really makes me feel sad. I think she feels awkward with me, and I know I have trouble talking to her about the things closest to my heart because talking about Jesus and God's involvement in my life doesn't make sense to an Adventist. How can I talk so certainly about the Lord when I've rejceted the church? I know God puts many of our Adventist friends in our lives so we will pray for them. I'm thankful He is so faithful! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 |
Cindy, I have been meaning to respond to your post about Goldstein's commentary. You are right about it summing up the Adventist mindset. I think you were far to kind in your selection of the quotes that you provided us. Much worse (and typical)were quotes like: "I'm not saying that the dfference between Adventism and other Protestant faiths are as great as the differences between ancient Judaism and the pagan faiths around it [although that is exactly what he said]; that would be pushing it. What I am saying, however, is that the differences between Adventism and these churches are still great enough to limit severely the options of someone who frustrated with the Adventist Church, wants to leave and maintain any theological integrity "[how arrogant can you get]. But the coup de grace was his closing statement--which sums up the whole article: "As long as you believe that the Sabbath and the state of the dead are too important to abandon, you have no real serious options other than the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Get over it. And use your influence for good." Thank you for sharing this article. I plan to take this along with the Sabbath School Quarterly I quoted from earlier, and a copy of my baptsim certificate to my meeting with the Pastor. When he begins to deny that the SDA Church's focus is on itself and its doctrines [as he inevitably will] and espouses that Christ is the center of its message, I intend to show him these documents. I don't expect him to agree with me, and I do not intend to argue, but I think it is important for him to see why I believe that the church teaches another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8) and why I can no longer represent what it stands for. Enjoying His Grace Doug | ||
| Jtree |
Doug and everyone else here. I must say that about 99.9% of things discussed on this forum AFF, is exactly what I was being forced into, to "believe". I had forced "Bible study's", upon me. Why I say this? Well back in the early days of my direct contact with Adventism comes from my spouse. She would travel the 40 miles to Berrien Springs on Saturday's. Well, one sunny afternoon, I was feeding my parets, outside, and here she comes with a Korean lady like herself, and her husband, an American. She introduced "Jim" to me. And said, he wanted to have Bible studies with me. I was apprehensive and not comfortable with doing this. Because I know of the nature of Adventism. I asked my spouse (at the time Fiance), not to do this again, after they had left to go back home. But back to the first contact, he is whipping out his Bible and books at and told me I HAD TO STUDY "Steps to Christ", because next Saturday he would be there to quiz me. This kept going on, and in like 6-8 weeks later he is asking me to come to Berrien Springs. The studies died off, after about 6 months. We weren't getting anywhere. I wasn't budging an inche off the SOLID ROCK, and "Jim" wasn't budging off the SAND. I went back a year later to "Jim" and they could NOT remember me. I went back again a few years later, again. Same result. They could not remember me, and denied ever knowing me. | ||
| Cindy |
Doug, Hi! Enjoyed your observations... Remember, (changing Goldstein's final words a little :-), "you HAVE serious options other than the Seventh-day Adventist church..." And may God's Presence go before you... may God give you that HUMBLE BOLDNESS so that anyone you talk with will know you have been with Jesus...... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Dennis |
Doug, My wife and I are currently helping two of our adult children to get their names removed from the SDA membership roster. We are praying that our third adult child will do likewise soon. Regretfully, we sent all three of our daughters to SDA schools. We attended Adventist schools as well (even met each other there). Despite having such a strong, Adventist background, we greatly cherish our new-found freedom in Christ. It seems like every time I study the Bible, I find additional truths that confirm my calling out of Adventism. As the old gospel song says, "I wouldn't take nothin' for my journey now." Admittedly, belief transitions, at best, are not without trauma. For example, we were excluded from a family will, a loss of over $100,000.00, because we left Adventism. Ellen White admonished (e.g., Counsels on Stewardship) that parents should make a judgment regarding their children's spiritual destiny when creating a family will. Otherwise, they may lose their salvation if "unbelieving" children inherent their assets. In our case, the bottom line is that the entire estate will end up in the coffers of the SDA Church. Sometimes these "Conference-related" wills provide a few hundred dollars for the non-Adventist child to avert the possibility of the will being contested in court. Anyone remember seeing the stewardship directors chasing little old ladies at campmeeting? Yes, they even know their first names. Sometimes Adventist friends and acquaintances, will ask me what particular doctrine I disagree with. I tell them that, actually, there are HUNDREDS of reasons (especially when one includes their extrabiblical writings)for not being an Adventist. Truth invites examination. LET FREEDOM RING! In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lydell |
Yeah Dennis, how do you pick just one? I've been thinking lately about the best way to handle a possible scenario of meeting up inexpectedly with an SDA while we are on one of our church's servant evangelism outreaches. Their expected response to handing them the church's card will be "oh I'm not interested, I keep the 7th day sabbath." That statement is a bit like fingernails on a chalkboard now. The mind begins to shimmy with the thousand things you'd like to say at once. ya know? | ||
| In_his_service |
The best response that I can think of to the SDA statement is, "But do you really KNOW Jesus?". <>< Thomas | ||
| Lydell |
Excellent Thomas. And cuts right to the heart of things, doesn't it! Thanks. | ||
| Fdauns |
Doug, I haven't read the comments of Goldstien, just his quotations here. But I do wish to observe that the ONLY doctrine that requires on to remain in the SDA faith is the belief in the Spirit of Prophecy as manifest in EGW. The number of Sabbath keeping organizations is myriad. Church of God, despite a rift, is still composed of a very large number of Sabbath keeping churches. In fact the reason its funding collapsed and membership went down so drastically is because the congregations rejected the organization for taking a stand against. Seventh Day Baptists, Messianic Jews, etc. etc. The Church of God also teaches soul sleep. EGW is, and as near as I can tell, has always been, what seperated SDA's from other denominations, especially other Adventist groups. My $0.02. | ||
| Doug222 |
I was going through some old papers today and I came across something that I thought would be of interest to folks on the forum. It speaks to the original message that Greg posted concerning Adventist evangelistic methods (agendas). I have a teacher's manual for a "Prophecy Seminar." The seminar covers the book of Daniel. In lesson two (the second night of the seminar), the topic is "The Cosmic Warfare in Daniel." It introduces the stdents to the key players in the warfare, Christ and Satan, which makes sense. However, I want to share the instructions that are provided to the instructor--information that the "prospective convert" (and most church members never see: Q. With whom does Satan wage war in the last days? Teachers Notes: This questions "lays a foundation for the remnant church. However, please don't give emphasis to the remanant. Pass over this question fairly quickly. The emphasis should be on the fact that the issue in the last day is over the commandments of God, and that Satan is angry with anybody who obeys God instead of him." Q.How can the Christian resist the adversary? Ephesians 8:11-13. Q. What is this armour? Ephesians 6:14-17 Teachers Notes: "Wrap up this lesson with a strong emphasis on the need for them to test everthing by the Word, to enter into an experience of deep Bible study and a personal relationship with Jesus that will make them strong for the last days. Give very strong emphasis to the need for developing a personal relationship with Jesus. This question is already laying the foundation of the Sabbath." Continued Teachers Notes: The thesis that is built through these lessons is that in order to survive the last days, it is absolutely essential that God's people have a strong personal relationship with Jesus. A relationship with Jesus takes time. It means spending time with God, time in Bible study, time in prayer, and when we get to lesson 11 we'll see time in Sabbath keeping. The purpose of the Sabbath is for God's people to have time to build a strong relationship with Jesus. If you can remember this at this stage and therefore give strong emphasis to the need of a relationship, then you will be pavng the way for your people to accept the Sabbath truth when it comes. Then they will see the Sabbath as part of their relationship with Jesus. Since they want a relationship with Jesus, they will accept the Sabbath as a part of that relationship. While you are not mentioning the Sabbath here, you are laying the groundwork for it. It is very important that at this early stage of the lessons they are already seeing the need of a personal relationship with Jesus." Certainly no one could find fault with the emphasis on developing a personal relationship with Jesus, but as Greg indicated earlier, the leader is just smoothing the way before he (I was going to say "or she" but realized that there are very rarely any "she's") gets to the "real message." Notice, all of this is happening on the second night of the meeting. I could share more, but I think you get the point. I think the worst (or best, depending on your persective)thing a person can do is see what goes on behind the scenes during an evangelistic campaign. I know it is important not to become fixated on the errors and deceptions of the church (as Sam mentioned), but I also think it is important to expose the methods for any curious soul who might be lurking on this site. Resting in His Grace Doug | ||
| Lucias |
Wow Doug, The way I'd seen things done from place to place that I have been made me think that such instruction were formalized somewhere. I just had no idea where. Great information. How easy is it to get ones hands on material like the teachers notes ? | ||
| Doug222 |
Lucias. I do not know if this information is available to the general public. My materials came from Seminars Unlimited. However, as I said before, it is good to recognize the errors and deceptions of Adventism, but making them our focus simply places us under a different kind of bondage. Remember, that "it is for freedom that Christ has set you free, Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1. I encourage you to move forward in the Grace that God has called you--and don't look back. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lucias |
Doug, To me this sort of thing is far from doctrinal. It gets right to the core of the whole thing. And when you distill Adventism to its most central point you are left with one thing. Deception. ( Please understand that I'm not speaking about you personally or what you did while assisting in these things. I myself helped do the mailings, went door to door drumming up attendees, etc. for these seminars. We were both part of a larger deception by which we were ourselves duped. ) The tactics that you referred to above are an organized and planned 'deception'. In this effort trained persons, of the inner circle, using methods and materials that even many members themselves aren't aware of, seek to add to the ranks of the members is, well, Cultic. I hate to use that word but what else do you call it ? This sort of thing continues to go on. It is conviently done by those who are not "officially" the SDA church yet do the bidding of the organization. When compromised they are easily expended as they are "working on their own" etc. Throughout the history of SDA's the one thing that has been constant and required is a belief in Ellen White as a prophet. You don't have to believe it but don't bother to mention your doubts or your out the door on your keister. It isn't event their "fundamental" doctrines that unites them. The number of, clean meat eating, Sabbath observing, and in all other respects Good SDA's that were tossed out the door throughout the chruch history is astounding when you look into it. Especially back during Ellen's day. The whole thing was from front to back an attempt to subject multitudes to the whims and controls of a woman, and possibly those who held influence over her, under the guise of Christianity and devotion to Christ. That is what it continues to be to this day. There are two sets of communication. That which you do within the ranks and that which you do outside the ranks. I'm not saying there are official watchdogs in every group reporting to a central group, its far more sophisticated then that. But everyone who has spent any time in SDA circles knows that they look down on all other "apostate" denominations. The office of the Pope is the Anti-Christ's and the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon personified. You say something like that within a group of SDA's and you won't get a single raised eyebrow. But if you go and mention that publically, like on the Billboards or in an internet forum, and the rank and file, along with the organization, will distance themselves from it. Why ? Because it hurts the perception they actively try and cultivate that they are another "mainstream" religous organization. And why would they want that belief protected when, as all of us who have ever walked among them know firsthand, it is a false position ? Because it hurts their ability to attract and recruit members. Thus something that they themselves know to be false the promulgate in order to get more recruits. Now the really neat thing is that those engaging in this don't sit around and actively plot the strategy. Its second nature. So uniform and prevelant is it that its not taught it just happens. Apologies for my lengthy rant but it directly relates to these billboards and the materials that you mention Doug. PS. You say don't look back. I can't help looking back. You don't spend 1/3 of your expected life from birth to awakening in something and then just never think about it again. I am glad I saw the light. But there are parts of me that are, right or wrong, shaped by how I grew up. One thing I have decided. To spend as much time as I can exposing this for what it is wherever I find it. I may or may not be able to help those who are in it but by exposing it when it is aired to those not yet involved I can hopefully prevent others from getting snared by it. Its nice to find a forum where the truth about this thing is understood and known. | ||
| Bmorgan |
Lucias, It is the first time I have seen your name on the forum, though I must say I have not been here for a while. Welcome to you. I stay away for a while and come back to "see" many new faces. Thank you! I totally agree with and appreciate your comments in the post above. Adventists suffer from cognitive dissonance. They learn to live with the double speak, and confusion. The sad part is they can be comfortable with deception because they do not see it . The whole structure is built on a lie yet it is hard to let go of it. It is like "a dog trying to catch its tail". It go around and around in a circle, an effort in futility. The strategies and tactics Doug described, are not "hidden". In some sda colleges the ministerial students are taught these methods. For obivious reasons not every church implement all the strategies. It depends on the socio-economic group. Some crowds are harder to lure and keep the interest. I remember churches and pastors were graded by the number of baptism. They did anything to ensure a high number of baptisms even rebaptism. By training the workers it helps prevent or repair any negative effects caused by the "not-so-tactful" members who may inadvertently express the "truth" and alarm prospective candidates. Deception always comes out twisted and tangles. Something in the sda chuch that disturbed me to no end was the gnoticism. A pridefulness in thinking they know more than others. The unspoken but arrogant message: We are saved by what and how much we know. This arrogance permeates the whole lifestyle, it is not limited to the doctrinal teachings. It is a one-up-manship. I agree with you when you say..."I can't help looking back." Whether you were born into it or came into it, you are affected by it. | ||
| Lucias |
Bmorgan, You are right I am new here, that was my debut...... I'm not usually on a rant like that but that topic just gets me fired up. Been lurking for a while and decided I should sign up so I could participate as well. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Jesus said we would know the truth, and the truth would set us free. Have you noticed that the big, eternal truth of Jesus brings the truth to light at more and more personal levels? It is no accident that as we find Jesus and learn we are saved in him, the deception of Adventism becomes increasingly clear and alarming and repugnant. Adventists DO need to know the truth: the truth about who Jesus really is, the truth of salvation, and the truth about the deception in which they are really caught. It most definitely IS cultic! Praising God for being faithful to reveal truth, Colleen | ||
| Richardjr |
Bmorgan, I agree with you completely with the four words you used: cognitive dissonance & double speak. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello all, I'll jump in here and share something that happened last week that still breaks my heart. Speaking of the deceptions taught to us, I will address the jewelry factor. I was in and out of the sda organization all since an early age. At best, I ran away from any church for over 20 years and lived a wild life. When on a sudden, I was moved to read the Bible... (something I had never done). I've been hooked ever since by that great Fisherman we know as God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit Himself. So came a desire to be around believers. I went to the Nazarene Church and was baptized, 1999. I rediscovered however, while reading the Bible the Sabbath and old memories but as fresh as today came to mind of my parents, now dead. Having made this discovery, of course I found a Sabbath keeping Church to accompany my belief system, taught from early childhood regarding this sabbath. I found the sda church and not a year into it, had the "truth". Having now the entire "truth", neatly wrapped, it was now time to take action regarding this "truth". First: Keeping the Sabbath. Secondly: Became vegetarian. Thirdly: Ridding of all jewelry as to not be adorned by the evil one. I'll stop there in the list for now. Now focus, if you will, on the jewelry factor. Allow me the expense of your time to elaborate and wallow here. The content of jewelries I had were of diamonds, gold, silver, saphire, rubys, onyx, medallions, neclaces, ankle braclets, earrings, pins for all occasions and more jewelry than this could I list. A great wealth indeed! But...the wealth I treasured in them was not that of monies but of the heart. For most all of it was a gift from my Grandmother, my brothers and my sister, my aunts, a few uncles and alot of deceased friends. Some of the pieces especially precious to me as they were handmade. That took much care and time and most of all, love. Yes, this was what I was taught (by sda church) was of the evil one and to wear it would be obeying and worshipping of this evil one, the very one that opposes our Lord Jesus Christ. So I stopped wearing it and simply kept them as treasures of my heart because they came from the treasure of love from the hearts of many peoples in my life that mean so much to me. This jewelry remained kept safe in boxes made just for such a purpose. Next, I'm taught (by the sda church) that the very fact that I own these and treasure them in my heart is a worshipping of sorts to the evil one. Being someone who really wants to please my Lord and God Jesus Christ I had to rid myself of these evil things. Sitting on my living room floor, tears streaming as if a floodgate had been opened with each memory that came to mind with each piece that I was now looking at spread on my carpet. The tears were unrelunctant to stop as I put these emblems of love from people into a bag. The bag was given away, year 2000. Within a week ago (January 2002), my Grandmother called me. A call from my very own Grandmother? How amazed was I and happy until me thought perhaps this call is to deliver bad tidings. So boldly, I asked "who died." She said that nobody had died, infact everyone is doing good. This was indeed glad tidings! Now, having years of not a one family member calling just to chat or see how I am, here is my very own Grandmother on the telephone, making a long distance call to me! OH, Happy Day!! As you can imagine, this to me was God working a mighty miracle. Inside, I was thanking Him all through to the point my Grandmother comes out and asks me if I still have this particular neclace that she had given me years ago. This neclace was given to her from my Grandfather for their anniversary and so sentiments were attached to this as she put it around my neck years ago. When she asked that question, my body starting shaking and fear and Lord knows dread of breaking my Grandmothers heart in telling her that I gave all things she had given me away. What dread and sadness I was experiencing for being decieved by this doctrine! My Grandmother hated my father when he was alive for being a religious man and that one of the churches happened to be sda while growing up made this even harder to mend any bridges of her hatred toward my dad and now perhaps myself included. I gulped and then told her that I was decieved into believing that having the jewelry was a sin against God Almighty Himself and that I gave it all away. There was a terrible silence on the other end of the line. My heart was broken knowing that now her heart was broken over an action I had taken. Me, the already outcast of the families, now breaking my Grandmothers heart. She asked questions and I answered but I know her and after hanging up, assuring her first that I love her very very much, tears overflowed me for two days and sleep left me. Yes, still within me is this sadness and I might add, some anger. I prayed. I'm still praying. My prayers to my Lord will not go unheard, this I know. I also know that He is putting all my tears into a bottle as I have asked this of Him. So with this as my consolation, I wait. Praise God Almighty with me for He will mend the broken hearts...all of us who believe. He will take the sting out, infact the sting was more likened to a gunshot wound a week ago. The anger is fading as long as I Praise HIM and this I do daily. For I must, it's the only way to ease my pain is through Praise and Adoration to My Almighty God, Jehovah, Adonay, my deliverer, my healer, my helper, my comfort and my refuge, the Lily of the Valley and the Rose of Sharon, the Alpha and Omega, my restoration, my life, my help, my all in all, Beginning and End. Amen and amen forever to our Majestic King enthroned amidst the cheribum in His Mighty Magnificent Slendor, Boundless Love and Matchless Grace, Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God and our Eternal Holy Spirit. thank you all for listening or reading I should say. Blessings from our Eternal One, our Creator who foreordained all things. We rest in His Name, amen. DtB | ||
| Lydell |
Denise, I can sure understand what you are saying. I too got rid of several pieces of jewlery, too. And it is sad to think of it. Like you, mine had sentimental meaning to me. I was struck with an idea while reading what you said. You know what I think you should do? Go out and buy some sweet and lovely piece of jewelry for yourself (perhaps a matching one for Grandma?) as an "in your face" to satan that you are FREE of that point of bondage forever. You know, maybe the guys will disagree with this, but I think that satan uses the legalism of Adventism to insult and demean women particularly. You know, women are told that they musn't dress too fashionably, musn't wear makeup to look or feel more attractive, musn't wear jewelry, musn't speak up in church, musn't cook with this that or the other thing, don't don't don't. And then when you have a baby, you are supposed to go to the cradle roll room, forever to disappear from the land of adults (unless you are blessed with a forward thinking church that has a nursery, I suppose). It all adds up to an attack on femininity. Or am I the only woman who ever felt that way? I'd be interested in hearing from you other ladies. It's something I've never heard mentioned here, and I'm curious what others have to say. | ||
| In_his_service |
I'm not a lady, but if you want to see one side of the SDA attitude toward women, read the Marikay (Silver) McCleod story sometime. It is the book called "Betrayal". You can find it in download form on Janet Brown's site. I went to school with Marikay, at Grand Ledge. She was a friend of mine and a sweet, lovely, Christian girl. I just read her story for the first time last week. I was sickened to read what a good friend of mine had to endure at the hands of the highest level of SDA'ism, because of her gender. After reading this, I can not understand how any religion, founded by a woman can hope to have any credibility with ANY person with concience. Soli Deo gloria Thomas <>>< |
