| Author |
Message |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 8:06 am: |     |
I agree with everything that Chris just said about these online forums. However, I have to offer a caveat. I too was strongly influenced by a dialogue with someone on one of these forums in regards to my view of the gospel. I suspect it was the same person to whom Loneviking is referring. So, there is some good that occurs, but there is a lot of
Quote:...misunderstanding, overly contentious speech, never ending repetitive circular arguments, a loss of love, and above all a strong competitive urge to "win"...
I visit these forums from time to time, but usually get weary after a time (as I have now), and must take a sabbatical. That is one reason I like FAF so much. In the two or three years I have been visiting here, I can think of only one time that the discussions became contentious. That's not to say that we always agree on everything, but there is certainly an air of respect and openness that I do not see on typical forums. I suspect the reason is that we all had the humbling experience of realizing that we didn't know as much as we thought we did. The Holy Spirit has a unique way of driving this point home to us.
Pheeki, I think the value of most of these on-line forums is realized when you can enter into one-on-one discussions with posters who are at a point in their life where they are searching for answers. There was one person at CARM who I thought might be in that situation, but as it turns out she is pretty entrenched in the SDA web of deceipt and does not really appear to be looking for answers.
I think you and the other formers on the board are doing a fine job defending the faith. More voices could not increase the credibility of your positions. You just have to continue posting the Word of God. The person who is really searching will be tuned into the "still small voice" and will hear what the Spirit has to say.
I might return at some point, or I might drop in from time-to-time, but for now, I must take a break.
Doug |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
Doug, you make a good point about the searching heart being tuned in to the Holy Spirit's "still small voice". I continue to be amazed at the tiny things--and the variety of things--that move each individual to question and to begin to "see".
I also believe that God in his sovereignty often directs people to read certain things or to meet certain people at precisely the times they are ready to "hear" what they'll hear.
I am so thankful for the individual love He has for us!
Colleen |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Thanks for all your posts. I must say I am at the most discouraged I have ever been on that website. A messianic Jew has jumped in and has brought up all the old arguments such as...we can't trust Paul, Peter warned us about him...the Apostles taught out of the OT, that is where we should be looking for answers...
We must keep all the Torah. Here are a few choice quotes from her.
"there are TWO Yokes. One is the yoke of sin. bondage, slavery. heavy heavy load. The other is the yoke of God. torah. Only a person who has never placed his yoke upon themselves would consider it heavy. It LOOKS heavy, but in reality, it is awesome. and light. God is LIGHT. His LAW is LIGHT..get it Gwen? His yoke is LIGHT. torah."
"As we discussed, the yoke of BONDAGE, (sin) which was broken by the annointing (Moshe), allowed them to love and desire to keep torah. Sorta like us today...eh? PLUS the little fact that they HEARD God speak to them. that little thing prolly had sumptin to do with it."
"lol..I know the opposite is true. those wearing the yoke of bondage (sin) dont want anything to do with torah! lol"
"The yoke must FIRST be destroyed by the ANNOINTING. ONLY then...are we are able to choose between life or death. blessing or cursing. law or lawlessness. Christ died for a reason. He broke the yoke. At least for me. Gladly I take on the yoke of light, torah."
"Do you know that Horeb and Saini are the same mountain? two women. one a woman of BONDAGE. pop quiz: what do you think, comparing scripture with scripture, BONDAGE might signify?"
"two sets of tablets. One BROKEN because of SIN. One hallowed and honored because of obedience."
>
"IF*IF*IF* Jesus did not tell us to keep the law, (and I will show He did), He would not have been a prophet like Moses, now would He? He would have failed the test that all Jews look for in their Messiah. This, is why so many Jews cannot believe in your Jesus carol. He(to their minds, according to your church) taught lawlessness. To NOT teach law is to break the first command to OBSERVE and TEACH the law. Don't believe me? ask a Jew. In other words, Jesus would have SINNED!!! think of it! A sinning Messiah! A sinful Messiah is NOT the Messiah foretold in scriptures. A sinful Messiah is the WRONG Messiah of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
"Are you one of the many who say you love Jesus but do not do as He said?"
"Matt 23:Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:theysay, and do not."
"Let's reason from the scriptures that Jesus, Paul, and Timothy used? I know that your church loves to reason from Paul's writings, but I find that dangerous. I really DO believe in taking warnings when given, and Peter gave strong warning about Paul's writings being misunderstood. With so many other authors included in the modern day bible, why not take Peter at his word, and reason from other writings? Surely, if what you are saying is true, it has a witness in the rest of scriptures?"
"something wrong with the scriptures Paul advised Timothy to use? Not enough information in them, or, is it that they just don't agree with your interpretation of Paul? Paul seemed to think highly of the bereans over just such an issue. Remember? They were the ones who checked what he said against scripture to see if it were TRUE."
"The accurate translation is: "that the children of Yisrael would not keep looking, for that was a useless {katargeo) goal (telos)." In other words, there was nothing for Yisrael to gain by staring at Moses' "shining face" because their hearts were hardened."
"The next verses Paul declares that Yisrael could not fully understand what the "old testament" was saying because of the spiritual veil over their hearts. He says that when one comes to know Messiah they then can better understand the Tanakh. His lesson has nothing to do with the Law (Torah} being taken away."
"That is your perception, as blinded by your church doctrines."
"Some Christians say we are not obligated to obey the Laws of the Old Testament, we are only obligated (no . . . not "obligated," but "it would be better if we decided to") bring forth the "Fruit of the Spirit" mentioned in Galatians 5. But by refusing to listen to the Words the unchanging Spirit authored before Christ, the "Fruit of the Spirit" is distorted. The only way to bring forth the Fruit of the Spirit is to obey God's Law. Love is the fulfilling of torah."
"All of the Fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5 are commanded by the Law of God in the Old Testament. Paul had nothing less in mind than obedience to the Scriptures."
"Numbers 16.13
The Number 1500 is the largest number to appear in the Torah as the value of a single word. This coincides with the value of the Greek Phos (Light) and God's explicit teaching that "the Torah is light" (Proverbs 6.23). The word from Numbers 16.13 in the Torah with the value 1500 is Tisarer, which is cognate with Sar (Prince/Ruler = 500). This is the only word in the Torah with this value. We have here a profound revelation the Light (Messiah's Torah) of God's Rule from Mount Zion."
and last but not least....
>Deut 27:
>26 "Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this
>law by carrying them out."
>Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"
To which she replied...
"A*M*E*N!!!"
The problem is...I don't get to hear the Gospel every week in church...the only place I get it is on Carm...and that is from the few who defend it. I must tell you I am growing weary in the battle.
I start to doubt that Paul can be trusted...I start to think I might have to keep the Law...but I know I have come to far this last year with God to turn back to the Law. Please encourage me and pray for me.
Basically what I get on carm is...righteousness by faith, yes...we believe that 100% but, then you must keep the Law...(depending on who you talk to either all 613 or only 10) to show you love and obey Jesus.
Now I ask you. Am I wrong? No one has ever kept the Law except Jesus, and didn't he do it for us? So now do we have to go back and stress out over trying to keep it or just rest in him?
Which is it?
Then you get the...then is it ok to murder if we aren't under the Law? I just want to scream.
I have also been told that I don't have any problem with any of the commandments except the 4th. The other 9 are a-ok with me...just not the Sabbath.
Pleae pray for me. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 6:44 pm: | |
Pheeki,
Best explanantion I ever got was from a former Jew (or I guess that would be a Christian Jew)I've posted it on here before. He said that all of the commandments were magnified when they were fulfilled. You get love when you get Jesus, something your dead spirit didn't understand, not at the same level anyways. So just look at the commandments, for instance, Don't take the Lord's Name in vain=Bless the Lord at all times, His praise shall continually be on my lips. Do not steal=GIVE (isn't this fun?) Do not commit adultery=Don't even think about it. Rest on the 7th day=Rest in Jesus 24/7.
If they could just think bigger! |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 7:01 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I humbly submit that perhaps you should consider coming out of CARM for a while. It is absolutely essential that each of us be completely grounded in the pure Gospel, in the truth and beauty of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, before we wade into the mire of abberant doctrine and the deception of judeaizers. Without being fully equiped for the battle we will be blown about by all the arguments that sound good on the surface, but that are really a different Gospel, no Gospel at all.
11 And He gave some, as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:11-14 (NASB)
Pheeki, whatever you choose, I pray that the Holly Spirit will equip and empower you for the work He has set before you. I pray that He will build you up into the fulness of Christ. I pray that you will be grounded in the assurance of your salvation through faith alone. I pray that no weapon of the enemy will overpower you. I pray for the full strength of the Spirit will fill your body and spirit.
When I get to work tomorrow I'll post an e-mail I sent a friend recently who had the same thing thrown in her face about keeping 9 of the 10 commandments. I hope it will be helpful to you, but let me put a longish message in nutshell. The reason Christians don't kill and don't steal has nothing to do with keeping the decalogue given to the Jewish nation. It has everything to do with living by the Spirit, under the law of love, in the grace, assurance, and peace of the New Covenant. Don't ever let anyone take that peace and assurance from you!
In Godly love,
Chris |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
Pheeki, I personally have listened in while relatives of mine (all sda, btw) discussed if Pauls writings should even been made part of the Bible. I do not partisipate in these discussions, I only listen in. Most sda's that I know do not appriciate when any of Pauls writings brought up. They just don't seem to like his teachings much. I have gone to the carm site and read the postings a few times. For the most part except for you, Pheeki and Dr. Patti and a few others the rest on there are mental cases. That's my opinion, I think those sda apoligics are nuts because they refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures alone teach. I very seldom look at that site. I found a really nifty wbsite at ww.meankitty.com It's an entire website of pictures and stories that people post about their beloved kittys. Maybe someday I'll submit my precious Smokey for all the world to see. |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
Pheeki I hope that I am not repeating myself but, I think the best thing I did when leaving the church is I sad to say left everyone who would mess with my mind. I have been out now for over a year and that fear of being wrong has gone and now I look and say how could I have believed all that hog wash. I wanted to figure it out by myslef and I know and did have many friends try and make me see it the SDA way. I had to just break off friendships that we like mothers and sisters I just knew mentally I could not take them telling me what they were going to tell me. This may have been the chicken way out but I just wanted out and did not have it in me to stay in contact with them. Well enough of my babbling. |
Doc (Doc)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:40 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I would agree with the above, that it would perhaps be a good idea to get away from the false doctrine for a while. Try and find some form of input that is pure gospel, either on the net or in person. Feed your mind with the word of God, not with arguments against it.
The fact is, we serve the same God as in the OT, and the same Holy Spirit has inspired all the Scriptures, but we are under a different covenant with different conditions for approaching God, by Christ, and then by walking in the Spirit, not by the law.
Read Hebrews, the author explains why every aspect of the old covenant foreshadowed Christ, and now we have Him, it is better than having the shadow. Christ is a better sacrifice, a better high priest, a better revelation, better than the angels, a better rest (Sabbath), etc. That is not by Paul (well, some people think it is, but it cannot be proven).
1 John 3: 21-24 says, "Dear friends, if our hearts do not comdemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him everything we ask because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us. We know it by the Spirit he gave us."
New covenant Christians are not lawless, there are commands to obey, and these is them. This is John, not Paul either.
Interesting these people who say we have to obey the law. There are certain commands in the Torah which involve making pilgrimages and/or sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem, which is no longer there, so it is physically impossible to keep the Torah. I guess they are really in trouble. On the other hand, I dare say there will be some exuse for that too.
I have got rather weary of arguing too recently. It is difficult talking to someone who is always right. However carefully you put an argument together, they will rationalise it away, and come up with any excuse for why the Bible does not really mean what it says.
I have been thinking about this recently. Why do some people not want to know the truth? I guess some people just like to be contentious and that is all there is to it. On the other hand, maybe it is related to security. If someone finds their security in anything else, other than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (which is where our security is supposed to be), then that person has a problem. It may even be something that appears good, like a rigid theological system, or a set of rules of some kind. Then along comes Mr. Evangelical Christian and tries to explain the gospel, and that what they are doing is perhaps not wrong, but it is not really necessary. YOu think you are giving them something really great, Jesus, but all they see is that you are trying to take their security blanket away, so they argue, rationalise, make excuses, and if you persist, they get hysterical.
Just a few rambling thoughts.
God bless,
Adrian |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 4:08 am: | |
How are things Do? Did you ever contact my frined?Once again yes it was easier to be an SDA because I could know all the answers and I knew that if I did this this and this I was a good christian. It was just to frustration to try and explain to the friends who I left behind. Its like talking to a brick wall. I fell much better now that I do not have the pressure of trying to prove this and that. I feel if they want the truth God will show it to them. Well I just pray for the people now who have found truth that they can leave all that behind and not look back. Lets not return to the vomit. Love Terryk |
Doc (Doc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:18 am: | |
Hi Terryk!
I did get your Email, but then all sorts of things happened at the same time and I never got round to writing. One thing is, I got a new computer, and I think it got left behind on the old one - I will have to check up.
Also work, church and Bible college teaching all happened at the same time too, plus no more invitations to talk about SDA at the moment. Anyway, thanks, and I will get in touch.
Yes, I just have to remember I have good news to give to people, even if they do not seem to perceive it as such. Lots of patience needed :-)
God bless,
Adrian |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:20 am: | |
I'd second Chris's remarks Pheeki, you need to get away from the false doctrine and stick to sites where you aren't bathed in nonsense. Try
'www.crosswalk.com'
There is a big forum board over there with lots of different types of Christians, but most are pretty orthodox.
The other suggestion is to head over to Chuck Swindolls site 'Insight for Living'---you can listen to the daily broadcast over the internet and also hear the broadcasts for the last month or so.
Crosswalk also has banner ads leading to other Christian speakers sites.
Also, just try reading, underlining and hanging out in Galatians for a month. It's pretty hard to accept the Judaizers arguments after reading Galatians........... |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:30 am: | |
"It is difficult talking to someone who is always right. However carefully you put an argument together, they will rationalise it away, and come up with any excuse for why the Bible does not really mean what it says."
Great line, Doc. I have felt that way many times! |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:35 am: | |
Here is the web site to listen to 'Insight for Living' on the Web.....
www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Insight_For_Living/Default.asp
Melissa, you're right--it's hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps changing the definition of terms on you and who has a different viewpoint on studying the Scriptures. In fact, it's almost impossible! |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:42 am: | |
Pheeki, I understand your zeal and I'm the same way to a point. I will say what I have to say and if the person really wants to descern truth they will consider it and ask more questions, if not, they will just get defensive and ugly.
I dealt with a self-righteous guy for a long time who believes you must try to keep the law to maintain your salvation. This guy is not SDA by the way but keep the sabbath in his home...anyways, I heard in my spirit, "I called you to sow the Word, not weed the garden, water it or put up a scarecrow." So I stopped debating with him.
If they have hardened their hearts past hearing from the Holy Spirit then there is nothing you can do.
Pray about it, God will tell you if He can use you there or if He has something more effective He wants you to do to further the kingdom. We definately don't want to get caught up in our own agenda and miss His.
Don't be discouraged, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict. |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 6:50 am: | |
Pheeki, I second the suggestions above, also.
I would also add that sometimes debate about doctrine has even pulled me away from the peace and rest that Jesus wants me to have in the midst of turmoil...that inner peace and restful confidence that received only from Jesus.
Jesus...Who says,"My peace I give unto You" and "Come unto Me and I will give you Rest". Learning from, and staying very close to Him as my first priority, the "one thing" needed....:-)
I love the following words from Oswald Chambers concerning Mary Magdalene on encountering Jesus after His resurrection:
""It is possible to know all about doctrine and yet not know Jesus. The soul is in danger when knowledge of doctrine outsteps intimate touch with Jesus.
Why was Mary weeping? Doctrine was no more to Mary than the grass under her feet. Any Pharisee could have made a fool of Mary doctrinally, but one thing they could not ridicule out of her was the fact that Jesus had cast seven demons out of her; yet His blessings were nothing in comparison to Himself.
Mary 'saw Jesus standing and knew not that it was Jesus...;' immediately she heard the voice, she knew she had a past history with the One who spoke.'""
I pray to keep that rest in Jesus...the confidence He gives that nothing will disturb. :-)
grace always,
cindy |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 7:12 am: | |
Here is the letter I promised to post that deals with the charge of keeping 9/10 commandments. The central illustration I use comes from Dale Ratzlaf's book, "Sabbath in Christ". I'm sure I butchered it working from memory so apologies to Dale.
Dear XXXXX, [My Wife] asked me to send you a note regarding the question oft asked by Adventist, "If you keep nine of the ten commandments, then why don't you keep all ten?" It's incredibly important to understand that this question is completely fallacious from the start.
One of the best responses I've ever heard for debunking the false logic of this question is to say to the Adventist, "Let me ask you this. Do you live under medieval British law?" The obvious answer is "No." Then say, "Old English law included laws about murder and thievery and such. Since you said you don't live under medieval law is it then lawful for you to kill and steal?" Again the obvious answer is "No". Ask the person why not? Help them understand that the reason is because we live under current U.S. law. And that while U.S. law does not include all the medieval laws related to the feudal system and the rights of Lords and Barons and such, it does forbid murder and stealing. You can further state that U.S. law goes way beyond medieval law in the rights in guarantees all citizens, in the liberties it provides to all, in the expectations of how society will behave. In short it's a better law founded on a better constitution.
The New Covenant surpasses the Old Covenant to a far greater degree than US law surpasses medieval law. According to the Bible, the Decalogue was the very words of the Old Covenant. According to the Bible it was given specifically to the Jewish nation at Sinai and was only to be in place until Christ came. According to the Bible, Christ ushered in a more glorious covenant that far surpassed all the shadows contained in the Old Covenant. Christians do not live under the Old Covenant. Christians do not live under the Decalogue. Christians are not required to keep the annual Sabbaths, the monthly Sabbaths, the weekly Sabbaths, or any of the other feasts, holy days and rituals that are detailed throughout the Torah or Law. All of these things pointed to Christ. All of these things are completely fulfilled in Christ. According to Heb. 3 & 4 Jesus Christ is our true Sabbath rest. We rest in Him when we cease trying to fulfill the works of the law and put our full faith and trust in Him. When we are found in Christ, we are in the real peace and rest that the symbol of the various Sabbaths could only dimly point to. We don't keep these Sabbaths for the same reason we don't offer sacrifices on alters, because they only pointed to Christ, but He is the reality that has fulfilled the symbols.
Under the New Covenant of the Spirit, Christians are still called to keep a law of love that prohibits killing, stealing, adultery, etc. But the Covenant we live under goes FAR beyond this. Under our covenant we not only are prohibited from killing, but we are not to so much as swear at our brother. Under this covenant not only do we not commit adultery, but we are not to even look at a women with lustful intentions. We live not by the law, but by the Spirit. It's perhaps easier to live by a set of 10 don'ts and think that you are righteous. It's a much greater calling to live by the leading of the Spirit under the law of love. I hope this helps. When I get home tonight I can send you a complete list of Bible versus supporting all I've said above. It would be well worth the time to look up each one and understand the teaching that runs consistently throughout the scripture. In the meantime, please check out the attached article by Clay Peck. It's a great resource for dealing with the poor logic of some of the more common Sabbath related questions asked by SDAs. Hope it helps!
"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col 2:14,16,17 (NIV)
In His Love,
Chris
If anyone on this forum wants any of the resources I mentioned in my letter I would be happy to post the texts I alluded to and to provide a link to Clay Peck's article. Just let me know. |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 7:41 am: | |
Thanks to all. I feel stronger today. I am considering backing off of CARM for a while...the only reason I stayed was I didn't want the nut cases to get in the last word because I know many lurk there and read what is posted...I didn't want anyone led astray.
But...why is it the minute someone says we have to keep the Law, and I start thinking about this...I start feeling condemnation? But they go on and on about how they LOVE it and delight in it...giving it the honor that should be Jesus'. Then I feel like there is something wrong with me...why don't I delight in it? Then I think, well I am just a lawless rebel.
However, I know one thing the Lord is still with me and he will never leave me...and if the Law can't save you, how can it lose you?!?! Amen? |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
Quote:However, I know one thing the Lord is still with me and he will never leave me...and if the Law can't save you, how can it lose you?!?! Amen?
AMEN AND AMEN!!
I believe you ìfeel condemnationî and think yourself a ìlawless rebelî because we all are!!
Which, of course, is why we need:
CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED
God bless you, Pheeki |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
No Pheeki,
You have the law of the Spirit, a superior law a better law! The one that changes you inside/out, not merely outside. You are not a rebel. You are led by the Spirit. Ok, you get outta there, you are scaring me ;) |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
For real, I am scaring you!!!! I will back off. She posted the most hateful reply to all who answered her posts about lawlessness...she said each person who replied had NO LIGHT. I would never say that about anyone...that would mean they don't have Jesus...and each and everyone on that forum have LIGHT because we have Jesus.
What is it about the Law that produces such arrogance and pride...Reminds me of Saul before he was Paul! |
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