| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Does anyone know? Does the Bible really tell us? As Adventists we were told that he wasn't, I'm not sure, it does say that he repented. What do you all think? | ||
| Snowdove (Snowdove) |
Since the Bible does not say if Judas is saved or not I believe it is one of God's Great Mysteries and I can't wait till the day He reveals it all. As for assuming Judas or anyone one elses savaltion it is not for me to be the judge. That is a Heveanly decission. This is just my opinion. Christian Love to all Sherri | ||
| In_His_Service (In_His_Service) |
As you read the words of Christ regarding Judas, I would not be real confident of seeing him in our future....assuming you intend your future to be WITH Christ. He was referred to as a "son of perdition", and it was stated that one would be better to have a millstone tied around his neck and cast into the sea, rather than betray the Son of God. Not real conforting statements. As Sherri said, I can't judge him, but Jesus CAN, and will. Thank god, we're In His Grip Thomas <>< | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
My SDA mother used him as a prime example that we have no assurance of our salvation and it got me thinking. The Bible says the devil entered him, it's not so clear-cut, I like clear-cut. He obviously believed in Jesus, he repented...Are the last few verses of John speaking of him? If so, Jesus kind of said it was up to Him. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
ETERNAL SECURITY Consider the record of two famous persons in the New Testament. Both of them were called by Jesus to be disciples. Both of them walked beside Jesus during his earthly ministry. Both of them betrayed Jesus. Their names are Peter and Judas. After Judas betrayed Christ, he went out and committed suicide. After Peter betrayed Christ three times that same night, he repented and was restored, emerging as a pillar of the early church. What was the difference between these two men? Jesus predicted that both of them would betray him. When he finished speaking with Judas, he said to him, "What you have to do, do quickly." Jesus spoke differently to Peter. He said to him: "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you like wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and WHEN YOU HAVE RETURNED TO ME, strengthen your brethern" (Luke 22:31,32 Emphasis Mine). Notice carefully what Jesus said. He did not say IF but WHEN. Jesus was confident that Peter would return. His fall would be radical and serious, but not total and final. It is clear that Jesus' confidence in Peter's return was not based on Peter's strength. Jesus knew that Satan would sift Peter like wheat. That is like saying that Peter was a "piece of cake" for Satan. Jesus' confidence was based upon the power of Jesus' intercession. It is from the promise of Christ that he would be our Great High Priest, our Advocate with the Father, our Righteous Intercessor, that we believe that we will persevere. Our confidence is in our Savior and our Priest who PRAYS for us. Yes, Jesus chose both men for very different reasons. He chose the "son of perdition" that Scripture might be fulfilled. True, saved Christians can fall seriously and radically, but I believe not TOTALLY and FINALLY. Also, consider David that had such a seared conscience, that it required nothing less than direct confrontation with a prophet of God to being him to his senses. David sinned radically but not totally and finally. HE WAS RESTORED. On the other hand, Judas was NOT restored. Obviously, Judas did not have eternal security; otherwise, Jesus would have provided him with intercessory prayer and a special mission like He did for Peter. Secure in Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Dennis, Are you sure Judas was not restored? Did his repentance to the priests mean nothing? (they didn't confess to God personally until after the cross, right?) I'm not convinced either way, just thinking through the whole thing. If he weren't sorry he wouldn't have repented and given the money back and hung himself, right? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, Thought about it some more. It doesn't seem to me that if Judas were ever saved, at any point, Jesus would have referred to him as the son of perdition. So, possibly he was never Christ's, but then, why the remorse? | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Paul talked about repentance that lead to zealous actions of good. Ok, here's the verse....2 Cor. 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." Judas never came to repentance to salvation. He may have been sorry for the deed but what was the sorrow based on? Because Jesus did not ascend to the throne as he hoped he would? Or for some other reason? But it didn't produce a repentance to come to Christ, but a sorrow that lead to death - suicide. Esau is another example. He grieved deeply that he lost his birthright, but he didn't grieve over his sin that brought him there...simply that he didn't get what he wanted, though he had sold it. One can be truly sorry for results of sin, but not for our sin itself. Hope that is helpful. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
It seems to me, that as a believer, we are offered NO secure position in Christ Jesus IF we accept that Judas Iscariot LOST his salvation. Of what value is the work of the cross if it could not cover Judas' sins of greed, misrepresentation and betrayal. Is the work of salvation "selective"? Are there only certain sins that can qualify as being deemed worthy of the blood of Christ? Can you "do" a sin that the work of the cross is to small to cover? If indeed Judas was a believer and was able to "do" a sin that was greater than Christ's work on the cross then the Bible is a lie. Because it clearly states "that Jesus died for ALL sins". If Judas ever believed in Christ as Savior then his betrayal would not have had the power to exclude him from heaven. Perhaps, Judas DID believe that Jesus was the Christ. Perhaps, he DID understood that Jesus WAS the fulfillment of prophecy. It is still possible that Judas never accepted Christ as HIS Savior. It is possible that he understood the story of salvation and knew that Christ was the Messiah and still even knowing all these things that he never accept Christ for his own life. I will consider myself as I make these statements of possiblities because just three years ago as a believer in Adventism I KNEW that Christ was the Messiah. I KNEW that His way was the only way to salvation. I KNEW the story of salvation BUT.......I still thought I had something to do with saving me. I still thought I could help. I still thought my power to do certain things was valuable in getting me to heaven. Was I saved??? If it takes the total surrender of human will to Christ to be saved then the answer is, sadly--no. Even though, I knew the story. Even though, I had identified the Messiah. Even though, I had followed Him (in a outward manner). Even with all this I had not totally surrendered the idea that I could help myself. I still held to the thought that Christ NEEDED my help-what he did WAS NOT SUFFICIENT FOR ME. (It might do for some other fellow more pathetic than I and less able-----Oh, an here rises the ugly head of arrogance). It is a sobering thought to consider that we may be surrounded by millions of people like Judas--people who have heard and understood the Gospel message--people who say the right phrases (amen, praise the Lord, may God bless you, I love the Lord, God is an Awesome God)--people who appear at the right places (prayer meetings, church services, charity events, Bible study groups)---these people may be the ones that share the message with you. They could be the very one that brought you to salvation and all the while even though they know all the Scriptures and appear to be very godly they have never accepted Christ for themselves. Behind closed doors they lead a separate life based on fleshly desires--arrogance, vindictiveness, implacability, greed, lust...the list can go on and on. We need to use this story of Judas Iscariot to analyze ourselves, not others. Do you ONLY understand the story of salvation or do you understand it and believe that the story of salvation pertains directly to you? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lori, thank you for your post above. Your insight is to the point: we need to use the story of Jesus to inform our insights into ourselves. As far as Judas's remorse goes, I'm not sure we can know for sure his remorse was about accepting Jesus. It may have simply been remorse like that of those who will cry for the rocks to fall on them when Jesus returns. But, as I said, I'm not sure we can know for sure. There are some respected evangelical scholars who believe Judas was saved. There are others who do not. The differences in opinion seem to stem from differences in how much these scholars believe we can interpret the words of scripture and the attitudes of the disciples and gospel writers. I'm not sure we can actually KNOW right now. I do know that I sense the the deep disappointment and grief in Jesus when he calls him the son of perdition. And I do know that, as Lori said, we need to be sure we understandóKNOWósalvation ourselves. Praying that God will protect us from deception and arrogance, Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Some may ask why it seems that some people do in fact fall away totally and finally. Here we must echo the words of the Apostle John: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:19). If we have it we never lose it; if we lose it we never had it. We do not become unadopted in God's family. We know people who have been "converted" many times. Every time there is a church revival they go to the altar and get "saved." One minister told of a man in his congregation who had been "saved" seventeen times. During a revival meeting the evangelist made an altar call for all who wanted to be filled with the Spirit. The man who had been converted so often made his way toward the altar again. A woman from the congregation shouted, "Don't fill him, Lord. He leaks!" We all leak to some degree, but no Christian is totally and finally of God's Spirit. While we still remain sinners, sin no longer REIGNS in our hearts. Those who become "unconverted" were never converted in the first place. Judas was a son of perdition from the beginning. His conversion was spurious. Jesus did not pray for his restoration. Judas did not lose the Holy Spirit, because he never had the Holy Spirit. An apt analogy of God's work of preservation may be seen in the image of a father holding onto his small child's hand as they walk together. In the Arminian view (Adventist, Catholic, Methodist, etc.)the safety of the child rests in the strength of the child's grip on the father's hand. If the child lets go he will perish. In the Calvinist view, the safety of the child rests in the strength of the father's grip on the child. If the child's grip fails, the father's grip holds firm. The arm of the Lord does not wax short. "God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about people he has chosen" (Romans 11:29 NCV). "For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE" (Romans 11:29 NASB). Concurringly, the Phillips translation (The New Testament in Modern English) says: "For once they are made, God does not WITHDRAW his gifts or his calling." In His amazing grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thank you so much Dennis, those are excellent verses! Chapter 3 of 1 John is a little confusing though. What is all that talk of not sinning? "Whoever abides in Him does not sin." verse 6 and "he who sins is of the devil" verse 8 and then 9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him and he can not sin..." back in chapter 1 he said, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us! This might be elementary but it isn't reading real clear to me. I know we should try not to sin, but help me understand this book. Thanks for all your time! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, The translators of the KJV missed a key truth in 1 John 3:6 & 8. As you may already know, Adventist teachings were largely formulated from the KJV. In these particular passages, this inaccurate translation actually promotes perfectionism. These are popular "proof texts" in Adventist circles. Here is the most accurate translation from the NASB(Updated Edition): "The one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil" (Verse 8). Also, Verse 9 uses the word "practices" as follows: "No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin." While we remain sinners, as adopted children in God's family, sin will no longer REIGN in our hearts. In other words, the NASB says that a Christian does not "practice" evildoing or sinning. To actually "practice" sinning, one would need to make it habitual and/or central in their lives. Adventists have a harder time "proving" some of their doctrines from the newer Bible translations. Satan wants us to think that God requires perfectionism on OUR part. This view creates a sense of hopelessness in our hearts. Furthermore, such a mindset ignores the substitutionary role of Christ in our behalf. We have nothing to bring to the table. Indeed, we are in desperate need of a Savior. Salvation is a GIFT from Jesus Christ. It is another way of teaching that God throws us out of His family every time we sin--possibly every day. Truly, such dogma creates a roller-coaster type of religion. In conclusion, let me quote these encouraging, inspiring words from the Apostle John: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE" (1 John 5:13 NASB). To be lacking in assurance is a grave hindrance to spiritual growth. The person who is not sure of his state of grace is exposed to doubts and terrors in his soul. He lacks an anchor for his spiritual life. His uncertainty makes him tentative in his walk with Christ. Assurance of our salvation is a key element in our growth toward spiritual maturity. It is our duty to seek such genuine assurance. If assurance is possible and if it is commanded, it is not arrogant to seek it. It is arrogant not to seek it. In His grip, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sabra, I'll try to explain I John 3 in the manner that I was finally able to comprehend its message. When we were physically born we were born as the children of darkness. We were born with only the sin nature at work within our bodies. Draw a circle to represent your body and inside that circle draw a square. The square represents the sin nature which controls what we think and how we act/react. Inside this square is a library; as we grow/learn/experience things the library of information in this room expands. By the time we are adults there is a vast amount of information in this room. The information within determines our "standards" for living. Before we hear the Gospel, this one room is the only thing that governs what we do, what we say, etc.... After we hear, understand AND BELIEVE the Gospel message the foundation for another room is contructed. Picture the foundation of a new home being constructed in the middle of the "sin nature room". It can be entered from all sides. At first, the only information contained in this "room" is the Gospel message. While this foundation saves us and makes us a child of God forever it doesn't help us a whole lot when we are confronted with a difficult situation. As we learn more and more Biblical truths, we began to "build" upon the foundation. The frame work goes up--there are fewer ways to exit the building and fewer "outside" things can distract and confuse us. At times we try to add things to our "construction" that aren't Biblical--these additions are "sub-standard" and continually cause problems. Only the things that are absolute truth can remain on the foundation that Christ laid. The book of 1 John was written to a group of people who were being confronted with false doctrines. John was warning them not to be confused by these false doctrines and above all else don't try to place these "sub-standard" materials upon the foundation that Christ gave you. (It's bad material--don't believe it!) Now, go back to the cirle that represents your body. Before you believed you had one room inside the circle. Now draw a room inside the first room. After you believe you have two rooms inside the circle. The first room is the sin nature which controls your soul and the second room is the "divine control center". After you become a believer in Christ you always have two choices of what controls you. You can enter into the room of the sin nature and use it's information or you can enter into the "divine control center" and use it's information. This is what 1 John 3 means when it says that "No one who is born of God (no one who has a foundation-a divine control center) will contine to sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God". (Eventually, even if it's unintentional, you are going to step back onto that foundation that Christ built). Sadly, most believers don't ever get anything worthwhile erected on their foundation. Their "divine control center" offers little or no protection from the winds and storms. But for those that are positive to God's word and seek out the "high-quality materials" he so freely offers they build beautiful, strong homes in which they can reside. Even those believers who build with God's truth CAN choose to step back into the sin nature room at any time. However, they have fewer exits from the "divine control center" and must walk past all the divine information stored within it's walls in order to do so. Once on the outside of "Christ's construction" the believer is instantly controlled by the sin nature. This is why believers still sin because we still have the sin nature. If we are standing outside a 'divine control center' (it doesn't have to be ours) we may look at it and proclaim we have no sin. (Only someone outside looking in would make this claim). When we are inside the "divine control center" we can not deny the existence of the sin nature that we can see if we peer out of the windows. Our "divine control centers" are constructed one level at a time. A really mature believer may have a structure with 8 levels. A new believer only has the foundation. We are all at different points of construction. A mature believer has a much different perspective on life as he views it from 60 feet above the ground compared to the ground level view of a new believer. Who can be more easily deceived by false doctrines?? Who can be more easily convinced to leave the "divine control center"? The vast libraries of information that the mature believer has access to can prevent him from being ensnared or tricked into leaving. However, this mature believer can ignore all these things and walk out anyway no one will stop him if he has set his mind to do so. If the believer leaves his "divine control center" does it disappear? NO. Will it deteriorate if left unattended? MAYBE, it depends on the quality of the materials. Will the foundation remain no longer how long it is abandoned? YES We've all seen the devastation after a tornado. Entire subdivisions can be blow away. But in those arial views one prominient thing remains (and is clearly seen)--the foundations!!! Have you ever seen the victim of a tornado standing all alone on his foundation? Sometimes it takes a horrible experience in life to get us to step back on the foundation that Christ built. If you've got a foundation constructed by Christ it can not be removed! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lori, I like you explanation above. A related way I understand this text in 1 John is to think of sin being our sinful state with our souls disconnected from God. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit connects our spirits to God, and we become spiritually alive. After being born again, we still have our sinful bodies and synapses pushing us to go back to our old ways of life. We can decide to step aside from being controlled by the Spirit and allow our sinful flesh to direct us. But when we belong to Jesus, the Holy Spirit does not leave us just because we turn away from his promptings. He continues to woo us back to himself, and we can repent of our lapse from living by the Spirit. We belong to Jesus even if we lapse back into our flesh-mode of living. But sin no longer owns us. We belong to Jesus; we have been born again; the Holy Spirit has sealed us. We need to learn to trust Him and to allow the Spirit to direct us instead of our familiar human methods dictating our lives. I am so grateful for security! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thank you so much for all of your resposes. I've concluded that if Judas were saved, he repented sincerely and if he never was, well then, he realized too late and didn't accept the love of Christ. Lori, I liked your message so much I saved it. Hope that's ok. I have been doing a lot of studying and trying to share some nuetral points of study with my mother, but it always comes back to the 10. I'm hoping to get her studying also instead of just giving me her opinions, as I have tried not to do. Our church has a study group that is studying the "Experiencing God" plan, or lesson. Interestingly enough, my mother is studying this with a group of her Adventist friends. I haven't had a chance to get in the group as it is on Wed. night and my week is so hectic, but I understand it is a powerful study, and not written by the Adventist church-shocked and amazed! She is really enjoying it, say a little prayer that God will use this study to reach these people. Thank you again for all of your help! Trusting in Him, Sabra | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Lori, I liked your explanation above too. I was noticing something in John the other day, I believe it is in chapter 8? The verse "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". I think far too often Christians tend to quote this verse as applying to the initial salvation experience. But, as you pointed out, the initial experience is just laying the foundation. The "being made free" part happens gradually. Our pastor often points out that when Christ died on that cross, He took care of all our sin problems. However, it takes us years, actually a life time and further on, of walking with Him to understand what that means to us personally. We are gradually coming to learn who we already are according to Him. We sin because we haven't yet grasped the concept that He already paid the price for our freedom from that particular sin so aren't it's slave anymore. or, as you said, move to the other room. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
The following information is found on biblebelievers.com. I do not vouch for its accuracy, but it appears to be relevant to the discussion at hand--it would also provide a window of opportunity in which Judas could have repented. The Fate of Judas In the Desire of Ages Mrs. White describes the death of Judas: "Later that same day, on the road from Pilate's hall to Calvary, there came an interruption to the shouts and jeers of the wicked throng who were leading Jesus to the place of crucifixion. As they passed a retired spot, they saw at the foot of a lifeless tree, the body of Judas. It was a most revolting sight. His weight had broken the cord by which he had hanged himself to the tree. In falling his body had been horribly mangled, and dogs were now devouring it. His remains were immediately buried out of sight; but there was less mockery among the throng, and many a pale face revealed the thoughts within." (Desire of Ages, p.772). NOTE: The Bible says nothing about Judas dying, being eaten by dogs, or being buried: "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5). "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18). Did Judas really die the day Jesus died? Outside of the Bible, the most reliable source of information about the fate of Judas is found in the writings of Papias. Papias lived in the period of 70 to 155 AD. He was a bishop in Asia Minor and a disciple of the apostle John. Some scholars believe that John dictated his gospel to Papias who wrote it in what we know today as the gospel of John. Papias later wrote five volumes on Christianity, of which we have fragments today. One of those fragments tells of the fate of Judas: "Judas was a terrible, walking example of ungodliness in this world, his flesh was bloated. For his eyelidsÖwere so swollen that he could not see the light at all, and his eyes could not be seenÖso far had they sunk below the outer surface. When he relieved himself there passed through it pus and worms from every part of his body, much to his shame. After much agony and punishmentÖhe finally died in his own place. And because of the stench the area is deserted and uninhabitable even now; in fact, to this day no one can pass that place unless they hold their nose, so great was the discharge from his body and so far did it spread over the ground." (Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord as quoted in Apollinaris of Laodicaea, The Apostolic Fathers, p.323-324, 1989, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Notice from the above quotation: Judas survived the horrible injury suffered in his fall. Judas' body became infected, swollen, and worm-infested. Judas died in his own home. Papias' description of the stench which made Judas' home uninhabitable correlates with the Biblical account of the fate of Judas' home: "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take." (Acts 1:20). Mrs. White's description of Judas' death and burial provides no explanation as to why Judas' home would be left desolate and uninhabited. When someone died, their home was taken over by others. If Judas had been eaten by dogs and quickly buried in a field, why would his home have been uninhabitable? Papias' explanation of the disease and death of Judas, with its resulting stench, is far more plausible than Mrs. White's explanation. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Papias' description seems to disregard the fact that Scripture says "he hanged himself". | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
If Judus hanged himself he must have not wanted to face the people that knew him. If he would have been saved from his sins he would have also been forgiven from others who were saved. It would have been a good testimony but guilt had to have a stronger hold on Judus than being forgiven. |
