| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Dear FAF friends, Dr. Raymond Cottrell, a notable SDA scholar, presented his 49-page study paper titled "HEAVENLY SANCTUARY: ASSET OR LIABILITY?" at the Association of Adventist Forums (AAF) meeting on February 9, 2002. Despite his mature age at 91, Dr. Cottrell participated in the Q & A segment. A fellow minister read the study paper due to Dr. Cottrell's recent illness and hospitalization. Dr. Cottrell has studied/researched this unbiblical doctrine for 45 years. Additionally, he has actually memorized large portions of the Book of Daniel, IN HEBREW, to help him better understand the author's original message. Cottrell's 750-page manuscript on this topic is ready for publication in book form as well. His concluding statement declared that the investigative judgment "is not present truth in the year of our Lord 2002." I have ordered the tapes and hard copy of this historical presentation. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'm glad Dr. Cottrell finally publicly stated what he has believed for decades. He used to say he would not publish his MSS before his death. Of course, many SDA's believe as he believes. I would guess that a majority of theology professors and maybe even pastors believe as he believes. I know for certain that the staff of Adventist Today, of which Cottrell was a co-founder, shared his convictions when I worked on the magazine. All of them, however, remained loyal to Adventism. I know it's sort-of an oxymoron, but they figured out new ways to phrase the old doctrines and "re-vision" the old beliefs so they could make them fit their more liberal understandings. Cottrell would like to see the church jettison the investigative judgment, but the church can't do that and remain the church. It's a bit of a dilemma! Praise God for the truth of scripture! Colleen | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I'm glad the man has finally come out for truth. But what is sad to me is that someone would feel they had to research this for 45 years and memorize all that stuff in Hebrew before he could have any confidence in the Bible! | ||
| In_His_Service (In_His_Service) |
I think it is equally sad that so many fine Theologians in the SDA movement have been persecuted and sacrificed for having the courage to say the same thing, in the past. Without the linchpin of this doctrine, the SDA movement can NOT survive. It has major impact on their very existence as a "Remnant" movement. I wonder who he plans to have publish this work. Certainly won't be a "church" press. Thomas <>< | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Actually, Dr. Cottrell is NOT now going to publish his book. He has indicated that it will be published when the Lord directs. He doesn't want the book to cause more problems than it would solve (whatever that might imply). He feels timing is significant in this matter. I got this information, by phone, from an AAF source yesterday. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, Do you think the majority of the SDA's will hear of this? If it isn't going to be published, probably not. Will it be printed on the web anywhere? What was the AAF's response? I don't see how the church can survive without this doctrine either, maybe that's God's point. I think it is wonderful,and hope it gets to Bacchiochi...teehee...he'll give it plenty of publicity! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, Spectrum magazine will undoubtedly talk about this latest study paper on the investigative judgment. Adventist of Tomorrow forum, a new site, (http://www.atomorrow.com/messages/board-topics.html) has already been discussing this topic. Adventist of Tomorrow forum has recently replaced the Adventist Today discussion forum. An assistant webmaster of Adventist Today has launched this new forum. He is also a former Adventist (PK). Adventist Today webmasters could no longer control the volume of doctrinal dissent. Therefore, they pulled the plug on their message board without any explanation or notice. Some threaded discussions were transferred to the new site. Check it out and share you Christian faith! In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
CORRECTION: The new forum is called ADVENTIST FOR TOMORROW not Adventist of Tomorrow as I posted above. It still needs a cover page, but the forum is up and running. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Dennis! Isn't Adventist Today an Adventist magazine? How did they have a former as asst. webmaster? Did they not know he was a former? I found some stuff by just searching Dr. Cottrell, I will check out the forum.. AToday never let me join...maybe they knew me from here? Keep us posted-pun intended. Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I suspect that AAF is not surprised about Cottrell's presentation. Although he hasn't put his ideas clearly in print, he has talked about his beliefs for quite a while. When he was helping to write the SDA Commentary in the '60's (I think it was!), several of the church-appointed team including him were clear in their statements that the IJ was clearly not biblical. They ultimately took a vote regarding this subject, and those who disagreed with the denominational stance left the room so those remaining could report a unanimous vote. Sidney Cleveland tells the story in his book, "Whitewashed." Cottrell is a great scholar and I have much respect for him. I've wished for years that he would risk openly stating his beliefs. I've worried about him, especially when I worked with him and saw him regularly, because I suspected he experienced some inner anxiety because of his fear of going public. AAF has been featuring people who oppose standard SDA doctrines for a long time. In fact, it was Dale Ratzlaff's appearance at the AAF meeting in San Diego in May, 1996, that prepared the way for Richard and me to clearly face the issues of the new covenant and to face leaving the church. We got his red books a month later, and the rest is history. Praise God for the truth! Colleen | ||
| Kelly (Kelly) |
Hi! Just dropped in to see what was going on in FAF. I'm a little confused about how dropping the IJ doctrine would cause all the churches doctrines to "fall". The Sabbath beliefs would still be firmly in place. Of course, being raised an Adventist I probably don't fully understand the implications of the investigative judgement. | ||
| Lucias (Lucias) |
Kelly, Without the Investigative Judgement/Sanctuary Doctrine/... there is no conclusion available other than 1844 was a collosial mistake. You are correct that the Sabbath doctrine could still stand, as it did with Seventh Day Baptists, among others, prior to 1844. However without the 1844 event being led by God there is no support for the claim that the SDA movement was led by God, has any ultimate purpose beyond Christianity in general, etc. Instead it was simply the contiuing delusioned group started by a man teaching things counter to scripture itself. Also the fact that it was so heavily endorsed by Ellen would cause problems as well. Now for the record I do not think their is any truth to the Sanctuary doctrine and I think the Sabbath was fulfilled at the Cross. But this is how I see the logic playing out. | ||
| Kelly (Kelly) |
Now I see the problem. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Interestingly enough, I sort of see this happening in my cousin's SDA church. When asked, the pastor stated that the food laws were given exclusively to the Israelites and had no binding on christians today and nothing at all to do with salvation. I don't know where they are going there but I think he may understand more than he is willing to announce publicly. They have had some very amazing healings; a quadrapalegic (sp?) man who has been paralized for 20 years from an accident is now WALKING without assistance! They are praising God for the way He is working in the church. I have to remember Rom. 14 and hope that they are moving rapidly towards a grace-only church, regardless of their day of worship. It is exciting the way God is moving in all that are willing to let Him move! | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Wow!!! Now that is amazing Sabra! Where is this church? I pray this man continues to understand grace and the New Covenant of Jesus!! You know what is so glorious but also so upsetting about EGW and this process. Jesus is the High Priest of the New Order Melchizedek, not a Levitical priesthood, which means to keep the Old Covenant rituals is denying the reality of Christ's priesthood. The whole thing about Jesus being better then as stated in Hebrews is so gloriously wonderful. Thank God for Jesus. What angers me is the realization of how EGW placed Jesus performing levitical duties in the "Heavenly sanctuary" as well as in Aaronic robes appropriate for Levi priests!!! That in and of itself without one more shed of evidence is enough to throw that woman's stuff into the trashcan. How wrong she is and contrary to Scripture. But praise be to God He gloriously saves us through this new covenant made with the household of Judah (remember Jesus is from this tribe as well as called the Lion of Judah). Praise Jesus. He is so awesome!  | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
The church is in Mt. Dora Fl. I've never been there but when I go down this summer I promised my cousin I'd go. I think if the IJ doctrine were to be thrown out of the church, EGW would have to go with it. This just might be the only way they could remain a denomination. The WWCG sort of rewrote their whole doctrinal teachings, why couldn't some SDA's? I know there would always be some who wouldn't change, as in the WWCG but like there are a lot of different Baptists, Southern, free-will, New Test., Independent, 7th day....why couldn't the SDA's do the same? | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
This afternoon I received a hard copy of Dr. Cottrell's presentation titled THE "SANCTUARY DOCTRINE"--ASSET OR LIABILITY? I also received two audio tapes that include a Q & A segment. This 49-page study paper outlines alot of SDA dissent (with past and current names fully disclosed) in regard to the investigative judgment doctrine. The well-documented study paper features 162 endnotes. You can read this historical document online at: www.jesusinstituteforum.org (this is Dr. Cottrell's Website). Two tapes and a printed copy can be obtained through: San Diego Adventist Forum; P. O. Box 3148; LaMesa, CA 91944-3148 (or simply order by phone: (619)561-2360). The cost is $8.50 postpaid. These materials will reaffirm your decision of renouncing this cultic SDA doctrine. After debating this doctrine, even in secret sessions, for over 100 years, the church still has not come to any consensus with this unbiblical alibi. On the other hand, it is somewhat amusing to see them in yet another battle of the same war. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
You're right, Dennis. "Another battle of the same war." Well said. I've often wondered about Adventism repenting, rewriting its doctrines, and becoming a mainstream evangelical church. Technically, it is possible they could do these things. And God IS in the business of miracles. Doing such a thing, though, would require all church officials to be willing to lose their jobs and retirement, etc. When the WWCG reorganized, the official church lost over half its members and income. Many members did not want to reform, and they didn't. Many of them split up into more sub groups. In short, the church shattered, but the official church does remain officially a church. It's just lost most of its assets and membership. You can see what the implications are for Adventism. I am quite convinced that the membership of the church is, by and large, ignorant of the real truth about the doctrines. The leadership, though, is not ignorant. They choose to keep the laity ignorant so they can continue to run the church as a profitable business that provides them with comfortable benefits and retirement funds. Remember Bob Folkenberg, the GC president who was demoted nearly 4 years ago? He's still employed by the church (I've heard), and he still travels overseas. His behind-the-scenes business deals (one of which resulted in his demotion) were profitable not only for him personally but also for the church AND certain Catholic funds as well. Bob Folk. was NOT the only church official who knew what he was doing. His "deals" were "unofficial", but key people knew and supported him. These kinds of things would come to a halt if the church reformed, and financially alone the church would suffer. In short, such a repentance and reform could happen. It would, however, be a miracle. We can pray for such a miracle. Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
CHRISTIAN HYMNODY IN ADVENTIST WORSHIP SERVICES Someone once told me, that there are worse things in life, than growing up Adventist. For paradoxical examples, remember all those Baptist and Methodist hymns and tunes we used to wholeheartedly sing and play in various Adventist services? In our younger days, my wife and I regularly provided special music (i.e., solos, duets, instrumental, and choral). Although not professional musicicans, my wife and I appreciated and enjoyed our music classes in college as well. Our music ministry brought us to campmeetings, Sabbath Schools, worship services, rallies, institutes, worker's meetings, and evangelistic crusades. Please notice the following excerpts from hymns found in the new SDA Church Hymnal: (1) "Just when I need Him most; Jesus is near to comfort and cheer, JUST WHEN I NEED HIM MOST. Just when I need Him, Jesus is strong, BEARING MY BURDENS ALL THE WAY THROUGH" (Hymn #512). Comment: This hymn certainly contradicts the investigative judgment theory that human beings will someday actually face their holy God without an intercessor. Just when they need Him most, He is not there. (2)"Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, born of His Spirit, washed in His blood" (Hymn #462). Note: A powerful, joyful message of eternal security in this well-known hymn. (3) "My sin--O the joy of this glorious thought--My sin, not in part, BUT THE WHOLE, IS NAILED TO THE CROSS, AND I BEAR IT NO MORE: IT IS WELL, IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL" (Hymn #530). Note: Another excellent eternal security hymn. Also, of course, SDAs do not believe that they can say "It is well with my soul." (4) "In the land of FADELESS DAY Lies the city four-square...And THERE IS NO NIGHT THERE...AND THEY COUNT NOT TIME BY YEARS, For there is no night there; For the Lamb is all the light" (Hymn #427). Note: No legal Sabbath, with its darkening shadows, will be in heaven according to this beautiful hymn and Holy Scripture (see Rev. 21 & 22). Theologically, it is most paradoxical and hypocritical for Adventists to regularly sing hymns that they do NOT believe in. Do you remember Fanny Bolton, who claimed that she wrote "Steps to Christ"? Furthermore, Fanny reported that Ellen White slapped her in the face when she confronted Ellen about obvious plagiarism. Interestingly, Fanny Bolton, after being fired by Ellen White, wrote the beautiful hymn still found in the SDA Hymnal titled "Not I, but Christ" (Hymn #570). Apparently, Fanny Bolton was quite sane and thoughtful, despite the unfair Adventist claim that she was a mental case. Gratefully, some of the great Christian hymns as cited above, kept my wife and I from Christian apostasy--even in Adventism. These hymns, largely of Baptist and Methodist heritage, were a powerful cornerstone of our Christian faith and experience. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
How 'bout "some sweet morning, when my life is over, I'll fly away? to the something celestial sky I'll fly away? Doesn't sound like soul sleep to me! |
