| Author | Message | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I was watching a movie yesterday about a young girl who was in a catholic home for unwed mothers. One of the girls had a baby and the nuns ripped the baby from the mother as she screamed after them. There were several comments in the movie about "girls like you" referring to the pregnant girls being less than everyone else. My heart started to fill with anger as I cam to a relization that maybe the reason there are so many abortions is because of judgement and premarital sex being a "sin". My heart split in two as I realized that my best friend had an abortion instead of facing her mother and SDA church at the age of 17. Have we become so judgmental that young women would rather murder their babies than face the wrath of the church? I would love to hear other points of view. Am I all wrong here? I understand that premarital sex is wrong, but at what price do we condem it to? Vi | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
You know, Violet, you ask a good question. I have been trying to sort out my own visceral reactions to abortion, etc., for quite a while. As an Adventist I truly could not see why it was such an enormous issue in the Christian community if it was done early. Of course, I could never satisfactorily answer to myself how it was different at month 6 than at month 3, but I'd just dismiss that dichotomy in my thoughts because I had no idea how to solve it. Furthermore, in Leviticus the punishment for someone accidentally killing an unborn fetus but not killing the mother was to pay a fine. The punishement for killing a man or woman was death. That always suggested to me that there was a difference in the severity of the crimes. Now, however, I do understand why abortion is a blight in our culture. And I have changed my view of it; I see it as immoral. But here's where I see the problem with abortion/premarital sex/ etc. coming into focus: to a non-born-again person, the arguments for morality and the understanding of God creating each tiny life make no sense. And if a person is not born from above, rules for or against premarital sex or abortion can become ways for powerful people to control the more helpless. Not that there should not be rulesóthey just won't work very well. I believe, based on my experience in Adventism, that most Adventists are not born again. I believe that is perhaps the main reason the church takes no position against abortion. Instead, they view the "problem" from a "humanitarian" angle. What would be the best for all involved? And they believe that they can objectively (or subjectively!) decide what would be best on a case-by-case basis. Their views are not grounded in Biblical truth regarding God's sovereignty and creation and love. Yes, Violet, you make an excellent point; probably MANY girls have opted for abortion rather than face the cruel and condemning reactions of their families and churches. And, have you ever noticed that the reactions are not so much against the abortion but against the "loose morals" of the girl? In 1 Corinthians Paul gives much good advice on dealing with sins among the believers. He says if you catch a brother in sin, you are to restore him gently, taking care that you do not also become drawn into the sin. That attitude would certainly preclude ostracizing someone for a moral failure or unwanted pregnancy. The new testament model, though, would suggest that the church see this problem as not just "hers" but all of theirs, and that the believers would extend themselves to restore the girl spiritually and emotionally as well as to provide good options for the baby. I really don't have detailed, clear-cut answers for this problem, as you can tell. But I do believe that only in the context of true believers can such a problem be handled in a way that would not destroy either the young mother or the baby. Outside the context of the church, I see the problem as having no good solution apart from rules and laws, because most of society does not understand life and the responsibility of treating one's own body as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount outlined deep morality that far surpassed anything Israel had dreamed of. Only in the context of a new birth can any of us hope to live holy lives. Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Violet, I think most girls or women turn to abortion when they don't have the support, financially or emotionally, of people who truly care about them. I know of some who have chosen that route and never ever get past it. I'm so thankful that I don't have to live with any decision like that. I'd rather be burdened financially with my 3 forever than to think I made the decision to end someone's life. Yes, I think definately love could make the choice for a lot of confused women who feel they have nowhere to turn. I think there are some that it wouldn't matter, but I think the percentage would be less. Think of all those souls in heaven. Sabra | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Colleen, the SDA "humanitarian" position rather than the correct Scriptural "moral" position on abortion is another indication of just how fundamentally off-base legalism is. Strain out a gnat, swallow a camel... I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that abortions were not common in Ellen White's day, therefore there is nothing in her writings about it, and there is no call to repentance over it coming from the SDA church as a result??? A reputable SDA minister told me about 5 years ago that, in America, more abortions are performed at SDA medical institutions than any other. In the words of my coarse, uneducated Grandfather, "theys gots some 'splainin' to do!" Any thoughts? | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
The readers digest for October 2003 has a GREAT article on abortion and how the trend against it as a form of birth control is decreasing particularly among the under 30 crowd. Apparently, the new view today's sonograms can give of that little beating heart changes people's minds. The article was very interesting and quoted several doctors who used to perform abortions, who no longer do, because of what they could see in the sonogram. I know it's but a grain of sand in a large political hot-potato, but it was nice to see the secular world acknowledging that abortion is not necessarily the answer. I know when I had my first sonogram at 8 weeks and 5 days, I was so surprised how much development was visible from the older model machines. And you could definately see his heart-beating. I just found it encouraging that the media would even publish such a positive article for the unborn. It's on page 96, after an interview with Barbara Streisand of all people.... | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Yes, Melissa, I read that article also. It was very good. It brings to mind a conversation I had with a former Adventist a few months ago. When she was still a member of the SDA church she was actively involved in a pro-life group (I believe it was an SDA group, but can't say for sure). Anyway, she was speaking to a well-known evangelist in the SDA world and asked his impression of abortion. He stated he didn't believe in abortion. When this person asked him why he didn't speak out, he responded that he couldn't because he would lose his position in the SDA church!! Isn't that ironic: SDAs always encourage people coming into their church to give up their jobs when it conflicts with the Sabbath. For this former SDA that conversation was the real turning point in her decision to leave the church | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, I am glad I read this as I am confused about abortion. I have not read what the Bible says about children, fetus, etc., as I am studying all the doctrine. I used to be pro-choice. Now I am not, but I am not pro life either. I do not like abortion used as birth control. Reality teaches me that people will indulge in sex without birth control and girls will get pregnant. I am all for using some form of birth control if one does not want children. I am not for teenagers getting sexually involved. I think abstinence is the best for them. I know I cannot enforce it, so do we make them go through the pregnance and have the baby adopted? I am praying about this as I want to know what God wants me to believe. Please pray for me. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2003 |
Flyinglady, please allow me to to make an appeal from the heart on this one. I am the product of an adulterous affair between an educator/pastor and his college age secretary. I was born slightly before Roe vs. Wade became the law of the land. It no doubt would have been much easier to for my biological mother if Roe vs. Wade had been law. She could have simply and easily aborted me and not had to go through the preganancy, the shame, the delivery, the pain of giving me up for adoption. It would have been much easier to simply dismember me in her womb and discard me. But what of the spirit that God had endowed me with? What of the many plans He had for my life? What about my 8 year old daughter Ashlyn and my 5 year old daughter Alyssa who never would have lived? What about the families that I was privileded to study with to help them come out of Adventism? What of the people who chose Christ and asked for baptism as part of the small groups I've led? What about all the other people who've touched me and I in turn have had opportunities to touch them? What about the plans God still has for me, for my daughters, for my grand children, and my great grand children? My point is this: We're not just talking about a "fetus", a term that seems to convey an object that is less than human. We're talking about a person that, as the Psalmist said, was knit together in the womb by God. We're talking about a child that was known by God before the world was formed. We're talking about a life that God has a plan for. There is no possible way to begin to comprehend the far reaching results of snuffing out that life. It would have been much easier for my mother to not go through the pregnancy, but then, I wouldn't be typing this to you now. All I can say is that I truly thank God that Roe Vs. Wade was not the law when the embarrasing mistake now known as Chris Lee was conceived. I'm sure my children are just as thankful. The easy thing to do, the convenient thing to do, is seldom the right thing to do. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 248 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thank you for sharing your powerful story. I'm so thankful that God redeems our embarassing mistakes--and I'm so thankful that he planned and created you! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 323 Registered: 7-2003 |
I will hit this from a different angle. I have a retarded child, as many of you know. She is my oldest child. When I was pregnant with my second child, my doctor asked me if there were any tests she could do to find out about the baby I was carrying. I didn't know if there was and I was very relieved. I was relieved because I wouldn't be given the "option" to decide about my child, since I already "knew" how hard it was to raise a special needs child, and I was relieved because I was able to carry my son in ignorance, rather than knowing of his impending problematic life. He is very healthy and a wonderful part of my life now. I am absolutely against abortion as a form of birth control, as is evident by my now 14-month old "embarrassing mistake" (all our secret sins get found out....). I still struggle with having a little one again when my other children are older and I was just gaining a bit of time for myself again. But let me speak to you as one who has given birth to a child most in society would say it's okay to discard. I cast no stones on the moms who take that option. Those moms are probably married women who wanted their babies, but their fear of having a special needs child (and there is a degree of selfishness in that too) lead them to make a hard decision...but I believe they are decisions of a different form of grief than mere embarrassment and a diffferent than normal inconvenience. The baby of a rape shouldn't have to pay for her father's mistakes either. Adoption is a loving option for that situation. But people claim to keep abortion legal for the situations like those I've mentioned which are a very small percentage of total abortions, yet to hear the pro-choice people talk, that's the major reason people get abortions...defective child, rape, life of the mother. Reality is that abortion IS a form of birth control for people who don't "plan ahead". It is the safety net many females use when they can't otherwise be bothered. I would be curious how many abortions are done for pregnancies created in a one-night stand situations vs. those in a marriage or long-term relationship. I don't know that they measure such things. I love all my children, my retarded one, my "normal" one and my "embarrassing" (way more energetic than his 40-year old mom) one. All children are a gift from God. I have struggled with that verse and what it means to me and says about me that I would receive such a "gift", but I know from the depths of my heart that I have so much to be thankful for. I often wonder if I had known 14 years ago what I know now about my daughter, if I would have a daughter. I'm thankful I didn't know. I'm sure the guilt, what-if's and other burdens of such a choice would have been far heavier than caring for that child has been. Now I fear whether our society will find her disposable born or not. As with Chris, it's personal for me too. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 251 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Melissa. What a lot of pain you have carried. God seems to give us all certain really difficult circumstances that he redeems into unique strengths as we surrender them to him. No religion besides Christianity has a God who transforms our suffering into victory and strength to serve one another. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 315 Registered: 1-2003 |
I too was a child that would have been discarded if concieved a few years later. As it was, my 15-year-old mother was shipped off with a bad case of mono. She suffered but I am very glad to be here and be the mother of my 5 children! I don't believe in abortion under any circumstances...mistakes aren't always mistakes...look at Bethovan (I think it was him) he was born deaf and blind and no doubt would have been aborted now...but look what we would have missed!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 254 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Beethoven wasn't born deaf and blind but became deaf. Many historians think his deafness was the result of congential syphillis. (How's that for the sins of the fathers...?) And Pheeki, praise God he knew and planned for you! Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2002 |
I and my girlfriend aborted a child many years ago, and I will go to my grave wishing with all my heart that we had never done that. We are now married and have a baby girl who is the light of our lives. How I wish we that we had two children now instead of one! We take comfort in knowing that the one we did not have is alive and with Christ waiting for us to come join him or her. I can't wait for that day! If it were not for the grace of God, and the blood of Jesus covering our sin, we would never be able to bear the pain of what we did. | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2003 |
http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20StatesÝÝÝÝÝÝÝ http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/proj2012/table_B1.asp In round figures, there are about four million births per year in the U.S., and about 1.4 million abortions. In other words, about 25% of pregnancies are aborted. 40 million abortions altogether since Roe v Wade, according to Planned Parenthood's parent organization. I'm a conventional liberal with the typical support for feminist goals, including abortion on demand. That view was turned upside down when I became (temporarily) the father of Jeff (not his real name), who was one telephone call away from being aborted. His bio-uncle called his bio-mom the night before the abortion, and but for that I would never have known and loved Jeff, who is a truly wonderful child. So now, for me, those 1.4 million aborted children represent an incredible amount of potential joy and happiness to adoptive parents, if only their mothers would reach that decision, and go through the stresses of carrying the child and child-birth, and the heartbreak of giving their child away. Realistically, however, I do not think that "adoption on demand" would work. Right now there is a shortage of available newborns that takes would-be adoptive parents to China and Ukraine to find children to love. This site, however: http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/s_number.cfm Seems to give lie to the idea that all those children could be adopted. The actual number of U.S. adoptions is more than an order of magnitude smaller than the number of abortions, like 120,000 adoptions compared to 1.4 million abortions. God's call to love our neighbor is confusing here. To love the woman with the unwanted pregnancy, I have to support her right to make decisions about her body. To love the child within, I have to override mother's interest for the sake of that precious unborn life. To really complicate things, let's throw in the father of the unwanted child. Typically, he has no say in the mother's decision. If he wants the baby and she doesn't, too bad for dad (and baby). If he doesn't want the baby and she does, then he gets the baby and 18 years of child support (plus college tuition in some states). The only point of agreement is that activities that make babies should be undertaken with great care. I teach Sunday School to high school kids, however, and I get the strong impression that even good kids are just like kids throughout history: taking great care is not at the top of their agenda. It's a very difficult topic. - Hoytster | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 77 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, That is a powerful testimony that you shared with us. I am also delighted that you are here. While we were Adventists, my wife and I were pro-choice (sounds almost nice), the official GC stance to this very day. Adventist (Arminian) theology goes into great detail to show how we were endowed with the ability to choose everything on our own. It is of utmost importance to realize that we cannot choose what we do not desire. Human beings, without God's intervention first, would never choose Christ. Praise God, when we enter into fellowship with Christ our philosophy and/or worldview radically changes. In our case, Sylvia and I now wholeheartedly support the right to life. What a wonderful change Jesus made in our hearts! On one occasion, regrettably, we even attended a pro-abortion rally at the Nebraska State Capitol. Furthermore, we used to make fun of those people kneeling in prayer in front of the local abortion clinic. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2004 |
I too used to be pro-choice and secretly disdained and made fun of those who were pro-life. I didn't realize at the time how heavily my warped SDA theology played into that. I was also influenced by the Center for Ethics at LLU which has sponsored symposiums on the topic and they usually come to the conclusion that "each case is different and we always have to take into consideration what is more redemptive for the mother." I never remember hearing about the sacredness of the fetus. Again, I believe that it's because SDA's don't truly trust God--everything is to be reasoned out without regard to what God says. As some of you have pointed out, the vast majority of abortions are done as a convenient form of birth control and now I personally find that appalling and immoral. It's true that what is convenient may not always be what is right. I'm grateful that all my pregnancies were planned and wanted or I too might have a HUGE regret to look back on. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 571 Registered: 11-2002 |
Severay years ago the Review did its feature article on overcoming the guilt of abortion. I wish i would have saved it so I could snail mail it to Colleen. However it may be available online or someone may have the issue laying around somewhere. The essance of the article was that abortion is just another sin, no worse than any other sin and it's too bad so many feel guilt about it. Then the article showed a picture of a young couple laying their baby to rest. The couple went to a store and purchased a baby doll. They gave their baby a name and had a funeral for the baby, and then burying the baby. Now they were secure in knowing that their baby would be resurrected when Jesus comes to collect His righteous. This was promoted by the Review as a good exercise for a person/couple to deal with abortion. The article and pictures were totally shocking to me. It did not come across as being very Christian. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2004 |
Chris and Melissa, I truly do appreciate your putting your stories here for me to read. I did say abortion should not be used for birth control. I am praying about abortion now as I have for a while. I do not like it. If someone is sexually involved use something to prevent pregnancy. Of course I am for abstinence for those who are not married. The way I see it at this very moment is that not all people are Christ followers. A Christ follower probably will not get sexually involved if they are not married. Those who are not Christ followers will. I do not approve of it, but I cannot tell them what they should do. That is why we as Christians need to spread the gospel so each person can decide to follow Christ. He is the solution to the problem. I am no longer pro choice and I do not like abortion. Diana | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2004 |
Your stories are important to seeing more than just statistics. Thanks for sharing them. I, too, have changed my opinion on abortion. Originally I was more pro choice feeling early abortions were ok. Then one Christmas time, the Holy Spirit spoke to me asking if Jesus was truly a being from the time of his conception in Maryís womb. Talk about immediate paradigm shiftÖ. On the other hand, though, I agree with Diana about heart change issues. But can we go even further and say that as Christians we need to look past those who are waving Pro Life placards and move into action. During my years doing abuse and neglect investigations it bothered me greatly that while people might be willing to wave flags in a march, they were unwilling to provide homes for kids who hadnít been aborted and now faced a life of abuse and neglect. I saw way too many situations where the kids were nothing but an additional check from the government. As society deteriorated, it got harder and harder to find relatives to take the kids because now Grandma was on crack too. Iíve been a foster parent. Itís a great way to plant the seeds of Godís grace, in the kids and in the parents. Whatís the practical reality of being Pro-Life? Praise GodÖ | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 326 Registered: 7-2003 |
You are right, Praisegod. If we are real about what we say, we have to be willing to embrace pregnant girls/women, and support them if need be, and find options for their children if they do not want them. I'm a little surprised by the adoption numbers, but wonder if it's because of availability of babies. I remember challenging our singles class one time after a Sanctity of life Sunday where we had stood by the road in silent support of the unborn and I asked them what they would do if a single, pregnant woman came into our class. Would she be accepted or rejected, would she see Christ in us or not? (The class was having trouble with divorced women in the class talking about their kids). But I think God gives us burdens/callings towards certain groups. Some people are very interested in the underpriviledged. Some are interested in ethnic groups (I've been in churches with hispanic outreaches and chinese outreaches), some are intersted in street people...now that's a ministry. But for those who God has called into those areas, it's a great reward to work with those groups. We just need to be open to where God leads us. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, I agree. As I continue to seek out a congregation, I pay attention to whether or not the church is more of a fortress expecting people to come to them or whether it sees itself as breaking down the walls to equip and train people to love their community while sharing Jesus. Last week I was out of town to a conference in Atlanta. The wonderful Methodist Church that hosted the conference makes a point of reaching out to the community. On Saturday one huge wing was full of people working on "Newborns in Need" projects. Various Boy Scout leaders were holding meetings somewhere else in church. I was talking with the associate pastor and she said that they are attempting to change the southern mindset of just closing off into themselves. For this particular church, I was told the change happened when they really took prayer seriously about three years ago. This was unlike any Methodist Church I'd ever seen: deep teaching of the word, prayer and action to the community. Their work is cut out for them as they've KKK headquarters right down the road. As I grow out of my old mindsets and into more and more of a relationship with Jesus, I do find myself automatically reaching out more. Each of us will have a calling to something beyond agreeing only philosophically. But we can't feel guilty for not doing everything. Been there, done that and it doesn't work. Praise God... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 78 Registered: 3-2004 |
Praisegod, I applaud you for your willingness to take care of hurting children. I have often thought, even when I was pro choice, will the pro life people reach out a hand and help the pregnant mothers and take care of the unwanted children. I read of one organization who did. It was started by a woman executive of some big company. I cannot remember her name now. Chris, again I thank you for telling your story. God had a purpose for you and I thank Him for it. Melissa, I have worked with all kinds of children with MR, Down's, CP and all the other disabilities as an occupational therapist. Each has something to give to their world. I applaud you also for keeping your child. Until I learned that there was a soul/spirit that goes along with the body and the breath of life I thought that abortion was a woman's choice. I am positive my thinking was influenced by my SDA beliefs. Now I know different and what an eye opener it has been. Maybe someday I will tell all of you about it. Right now I cannot. Please give me some Bible texts that talk about unborn babies that I can read and absorb them. Thank you for your kind remarks and stories and understanding. God is AWESOME and I praise Him. Diana | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2003 |
"It was started by a woman executive of some big company. I cannot remember her name now." MARY CUNNINGHAM AGEE My (former) son "Jeff" came to us through Agee's organization. Jeff's mother lived with us for the last six months of her pregnancy, then gave us her baby, because she knew we would be good parents, and she could not deal with giving her child to a near-stranger. It's not all nice, though, perhaps. Jeff's mother met three different couples as prospective parents of her baby, all referred through Agee's organization. They were all extremely wealthy. Our impression was that if you give a large enough sum to Agee's organization, then they introduce you to one of their highly eligible mother's, so you get an especially high quality adoptive child. This was just our impression. I would love to be wrong. - Hoytster | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 257 Registered: 12-2003 |
I am surprised at myself when I realize how greatly my opinion of abortion has changed. As an Adventist I truly could not see how it was wrong unless it was used casually as birth control. Realizing we have spirits was a huge part in my mind-change. Other things have also contributed, including growing in Jesus and understanding what it means to love and be loved by Him. I am certain that Adventists do not take a stand against abortion because of their beliefs about the nature of life/spirit. If we really are no different from animals except for speech and abstract thought, then abortion does make sense in many cases. I have to say that when I think about the arguments for abortion, I realize that they are only a small step away from arguments for euthanasia which many people would have a harder time embracing. And yet, when my father was dying, I heard MANY arguments that made euthanasia sound like the only humane, compassionate choice. Truly, if one can rationalize abortion, it's not hard to rationalize helping someone die. I find that I have to fall back on my (relatively new and freeing) belief in God's sovereignty and say that He knows each of our days before any one of them had come to be. My life (and those of my loved ones) are in His hands, and He can exercise his mercy and grace in more powerful ways than we could devise if we allow Him to be the author of life and the overseer of death. There is so much I can't know or see; trust in God's sovereignty and mercy is the only way I can live without being in continual anxiety. Colleen |
