| Author |
Message |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 11:26 am: |     |
Through reading Gen. 6 and other Scriptures about Noah, I see no reason to believe that God was waiting patiently for fallen angels to repent...it seems to me He was waiting patiently for any humans to repent and come to faith in Him. Jesus preached to these souls of lost men. Christ has even been glorified in Hades. There is not one person anywhere who will not bow down and recognize Him as the Son of God and Man, Redeemer of the world, King of kings and Lord of Lords. I think it's pretty cool. I remember some of the crazy rationalizations for that text in SDAism. Just taking God at His Word is so much better!
A school friend of mine lost her child several months ago, and she recently sent us the memorial picture and card. My son was asking who this boy was, and I was telling him about him, and how he's safe with Jesus right now. And the thing is I know it is the truth, and it's so joyous to be able to say that instead of rationalizing them split with the "breath" going to God with no existence and the "body" to the earth, simply in "waiting" for the resurrection. No, I can celebrate that I can have that assurance of being with Him even now with His Spirit present, and for eternity when I die. "I will never leave you nor forsake you" is the truth of it all. I am so thankful for that. It is good news to me. I'm sad for my friend who is SDA can take solice in the fact of the resurrection, but not in joy now that her son resides with the Father in peace right now... no more pain or suffering, and surrounded by True Love! When I sent her a card I couldn't help but share the text in all 4 Gospels that when Jesus was questioned about marriage and the resurrection, after answering part of the query, he then said these words "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." Mark 12:26,27. He is the God of the Living...see that? He even says they are greatly mistaken in their viewpoints of the resurrection... the Jewish perspective. Yes, there will be a bodily resurrection, but it seems clear we rest in Christ from here all the way into eternity. The blessing of His promises and the reality of them are sure awesome.  |
Fdauns (Fdauns)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 12:32 pm: | |
Brian,
Respectfully, I think that Solomon was very much aware of the life to come.
My reasons, from Ecclesiates, are as follows :
1. Eccl 8:12-13 RSV :
Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him; but it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God.
There is a tension in the above passage. On the one hand he says a sinner repeatedly does evil and prolongs his life. Yet he says that the wickeds days will not be prolonged. How can this be except that there be a resurrection ?
2. Eccl 12:13-14 RSV
13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Solomon clearly stated he felt this life was futile. The righteous were sometimes oppressed, the evil ones were often rewarded. This he repeatedly declares to be meaningless. How could this be meaningless ? Because this life itself is meaningless. Looking into verse 14 above we see Solomon speaking of a day of judgement in which all deeds will be judged. This is the day of reckoning.
3. 3:21
On the one had 3:21 suggests that there is in fact a body and a spirit but that we don't know, practically, what happens to the spirit. Keep in mind that no one had been raised from the dead at this point ( I may be wrong about this when did Elijah ( or was it Elisha ) raise the lad )). We, on the other hand, have Christ raised from the Dead and can declare with confidence that there is life beyond.
So while Solomon doesn't clearly address the afterlife he does make some statements that seem to show he did believe in it. But his belief was a belief that had not yet seen, and hence lacked the confidence that Christians today have in the resurrection.
Just my thoughts. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 6:13 pm: | |
Here's a question/thought that surfaced in one of our Friday night FAF Bible studies. I can't remember exactly what text we were perusing, but God's judgment came up, and we discussed the text that says "Let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29) The consuming fire part of that verse is a quote from Deuteronomy 4:24.
Doesn't that picture of God's judgment pique some interesting thoughts about hell? I've no idea exactly what this metaphor might mean,--if it means anything directly about hell--but it is interesting to think of God himself as being sovereign over EVERYTHING--even the destruction of the wicked. If God is pictured as the consuming fire, what might that mean?
I really don't know what precisely this text implies beyond the fact that God cannot tolerate evil and will ultimately destroy it. But I do know that I've found both a strange comfort and a sense of urgency and mission in believing that God is both infintely just as well as merciful.
Praise God for truth!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 4:12 pm: | |
Colleen,
In my exposure to the wonderful Pentecostal people, I learned from them that the consuming fire is a thing you want! I think it is speaking of the zeal (fire) that consumes us as believers and makes us want to serve Him. They have many songs about it: "I've got the Holy Ghost and fire living within me" is the first one that comes to mind.
Just my interpretation, under the appropriate title-Sabra's dumb questions....and answers ha
I crack myself up.
Blessings! |
Lori (Lori)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 7:11 am: | |
Another thing to consider is: believers works will be revealed by fire 1 Cor. 3 The believer will pass through the flames. Anything that is not consumed he will be rewarded for.
Have you considered that one of the things that will survive the flames are the Truths that we have in our minds from the Word of God? All of the false concepts will be consumed only those that were based upon truth will remain. |
Brianglass (Brianglass)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 7:15 am: | |
Fdauns,
Here's my take on 8:12-13. On the one hand Solomon declares that the wicked may live long even though they sin, yet they will not prolong their lives like shadows.
I would suggest that Solomon is perhaps thinking of an evening shadow. In the evening the shadows grow very long due to the angle of the sun. However, the shadows are still finite and when the sun sets they are gone.
So while shadows (or lives) may grow long toward the end of the day, the wicked will not enjoy this lengthening because they do not fear God. The implication is that those who fear God will lengthen their lives as the shadows do.
7:16-17 concurs that wickedness shortens life. Verse 17 says, "Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?" I think these two passages are talking about the same thing. I don't think 8:12-13 implies belief in the afterlife.
12:13-14 does make it clear that there will be a judgement. The question I have is what and when is the judgement? Is it speaking of this lengthening of life mentioned in 8:12-13 and 7:16-17? Or is it something that comes after death? As far as I can tell, Solomon isn't real clear about it.
I still believe that the overall tone of Ecclesiastes denies a belief in an afterlife. I believe that as Colleen put it, "He was writing about how reality looks from a worldly point of view."
But, I'm still open to reconsidering my position. |
Angie (Angie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
okay Sabra,this time it is Angie's dumb question!My adventist finally got back with me,she still had no answer for my ?'s.But anyway she said that in Mt.27:46,when Jesus said,'why hast thou forsaken me?'That God left Jesus b/c he couldn't stay in the presence of all the sin that Jesus took on for all of us.Is this true,why did he say that?? B/c I just can't believe what she said![But her reason for saying that was to prove that we would not have a mediator in the last days,therefore we will be going thru what Jesus did]Which I don't believe that either,she's gonna find that in the Bible for me also!!Why can't they just accept 'no longer sda' and go on! |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 2:57 pm: | |
Tell your friend to read Psalms 22.
This is what Jesus was quoting on the cross.
The true message of the Psalm is that God faithful and true even in our sufferings.
Nothing to do with God being absent. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Angie, another point where your Adventist friend misunderstands is the part about our being without a mediator. Ellen taught that during the "time of troubel", God's people will have so perfected their characters that they will stand without a mediator.
This teaching is heresy. Jesus said he would NEVER leave us or forsake us, even to the end of the age. Further, we do not have to go through what Jesus went through. That's the whole point of Jesus' death! HE died the death of experiencing separation from the Father (which, as Jerry pointed out, does not mean the Father was absent). We do not ever have to experience being without a mediator or being separated from the Father! That's the good news of the gospel!
And that is the good news Adventists do not understand.
Colleen |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Lori, I loved what you said about those things they did that were so impressive in their own eyes EQUALS= "minus-righteousness" when compared to the PERFECT righteousness ACQUIRED by accepting the atoning death of Christ. If your name isn't in the book, that is it, amen. It sounds like a different way of saying "we are saved by grace+nothing". Maybe we should design a tee-shirt for formers with that logo on it, amen?
Colleen, I just wanted to say thank you too for clearing up the confusion about the committee. It would appear that I was definitely given the wrong impression when I received emails sent to several different addresses to complain to the board about them NOT DOING THEIR JOB by putting me in my place, or perhaps it was just a play on words like board of directors, board of trustees, monitoring team, etc. Regardless, it is nice to find that I still live in America where we have freedom of speech, but I will try to refrain from the cut and paste and stick to giving the site address from now on and that way you can all check it out thoroughly for yourselves without having to wade through a long post, saves me time too.
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:07 pm: | |
Jerry, I wish that you had expounded on Psalms 22 a little more because Jesus was doing a whole lot more than simply quoting scripture on the cross. Jesus was fulfilling the Bible prophecy concerning his crucifixion written in the 22nd chapter of Psalms, and not until I really got into studying it did I find that this chapter was written at least 2000 years before this form of capital punishment was even brought into practice. If you study about what a crucifixion does to the human body, you will also find that you soon die of heart failure due to all the pressure buildup and you are very much exposed and all those other things spoken of in the chapter, also notice that he said "dogs" compassed him and they cast lots against his vesture. Gentiles were called "dogs" by the Jews and these Romans did cast lots to see who would get Christ's coat.
For a physician's description of what happened to Jesus during the crucifixion, go to this site at: http://www.konnections.com/Kcundick/crucifix.html and I will end this post now.
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
In Matthew 27:46 where Jesus said "Why hast thou forsaken me", the word forsaken is defined in the corcordance as abandoned or deserted. Also, to leave helpless, or utterly forsaken. The reason was that God indeed could not look upon sin, the SDAs are right in this aspect of God. I will talk more about that subject when I have more time to look for the scripture references. We just have to trust God with "everything" like one prayer petition mentioned in the Bible where it mentions a man praying "Lord, I believe, help me with my unbelief" so, does that sound like doubletalk? Maybe it does to us but, believe me, God understood his dilemna and understands us too, and he will give wisdom to those to seek it as well.
I won't be pasting a bunch of scripture about the state of the dead either but if you go back and read that same chapter in Matthew, you will read where the spirits came out of the grave after the resurrection which also proves that everything changed at that point in time. When the veil was torn in the temple that separated the holy of holies from the rest of the temple where only the ceremonially clean priest could enter, Jesus became our high priest and that was why Mary couldn't touch him before the ascension because he had to be clean to offer his blood at the altar of the heavenly holy of holies. In case any of you former SDAs and/or your SDA family members haven't heard it yet, the blood was applied over 2000 years ago and NOT begun in 1844, if you don't get anything else, please get hold of that one fact from the word of God, not from the gospel according to Janice the Baptist, or E.G. White, supposed prophetess of the SDAs, amen. One last thing in closing:
Angie, you can tell your Adventist buddy to go to this web site http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1051145030-4207.html for a complete study of the word mediator and this study should be more than enough to silence the foolish thought that Jesus isn't THE MEDIATOR for us in glory.
Guess I need to get back to my own work that I am trying to prepare for my web site concerning the Pauline epistles and how IT IS ALL ABOUT GRACE, GOD'S GRACE FOUND ONLY THROUGH THE REDEEMING BLOOD OF JESUS. I still want to post concerning the four judgments that God mentions in the Bible since it was mentioned a little in a couple of the posts.
Good night,
Janice |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Janice, when you return.
I could not find the verse where "God could not look upon sin" nor am I clear on your meaning.
I am clear that, when we accept Jesus, He presents his perfect glory instead of our sinfullness in his role as our mediator.
I understand the meaning of the word translated as "forsaken." But, the entire context of the Psalm is a little different than "God abandoned Jesus."
The point is, the writer of the Psalm was expressing a human perception at the beginning, but made clear that God looks over us all, always.
I can say I feel so miserable that God must not love me, even though God does, indeed, love me. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 6:52 am: | |
God did not leave, Ps. 22:21 says, You have answered Me. also see Heb. 5:5-10
I will never leave you nor forsake you-Heb. 13:5
Says even in the depths of hell, though I can't find that verse.
Why do they badger? Just be confident and stand on the Word Angie. |
Angie (Angie)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 1:40 pm: | |
Colleen,I'm sorry,that is what she said.The litral,144000,will be perfect and won't need a mediator.But that to me,is not truth! Angie |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 4:57 pm: | |
You're right, Angie. I'm sure that is what she said; that's official SDA doctrine. It's unbelievable!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 7:16 pm: | |
I don't think I even knew that one, good grief, sounds like a JW doctrine.
Maybe we should start a thread on the weirdest SDA doctrines, bet we could get a good start on the 27 fundamentals!
Let's see,
No meat or you wont be translated
No milk or eggs since they come from meat
Read all labels to see if there is any lard(ask your waitress if there is any lard and embarass your teenager to death)
Buy your fiancee a watch instead of a ring (that one might be outdated)
The whole world will be ruled by the poor pitiful Pope.............. |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 8:52 pm: | |
She also said, No photograph albums, because they are idolatry.
When I first became an Adventist, I couldn't get over that for a long time. Everytime I visited another SDA home, I was always surprised (kept my surprise to myself and my wife) about their photo albums.
Now I can even have a picture of the "poor, pitiable pope." Hee, hee.
Steve |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 5:44 am: | |
Really?? Guess I never read much EGW-Praise God!We always had pictures everywhere.
That is an Islaamic law too, isn't it?
Cults, cults,cults.......... |
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