| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Deut 7:9: Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments. 30,000 years????????? Also, any insight into the disciples picking wheat on the Sabbath--what is the significance of Jesus' reference to David. I'm being persecuted on another forum (tee hee) Don't worry...the Spirit of the Lord has annointed me..........(with a little help from my friends)  | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
One thing that cracks me up about Adventists is they see "commandments" in the Bible and they think "ten commandments." The Old Testament commandments were for Old Testament Jews. Jesus gave us New Testament peoples a new commandment: Love. That's the one for us to keep. (It's not like we have it any easier) Jesus is referring to David eating holy bread from the Temple because he had nothing else to eat. The reference to Jesus's disciples eating grain on the Sabbath is Matt. 12:1. I believe Jesus is saying the disciples were not breaking the law because they were with Him and were not desecrating the day. David didn't break the law when he ate the consecrated bread (I think) because he was in the Temple and because he and his men had not had sex recently (see I. Samuel 21) I think Jesus was saying, since you know David didn't break the law, then you should extrapolate and realize my disciples aren't breaking the law. --Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I think an added significance of David eating the shewbread was that he was the Lord's annointed. It was not desecration for the Lord's annointed to break the law and eat the holy bread, because God's annointing trumped the law. That whole passage in Matthew where Jesus refers to David eating the bread and ends by saying, But I tell you the truth, one greater than the temple is here, is significant because to the Jews the temple was the center of God's presence in their nation. The temple made things sacred because God's presence was in the temple. Because God's presence lived there (or had until the cloud left Israel as recorded in Ezekiel) everything in the temple was sacred. Even the law was sacred because it was a subset of God and God's presence. The temple was IT. When Jesus said he was greater than the temple, he was saying he was greater than the place where God's presence lived. He was God Himselfógreater than the dwelling place of God. His own body was the temple of God. By saying he was greater than the temple, he was saying that everything inside the temple made sacred by the presence of God was realized in Him. The law was realized in him. The Sabbath was realized in him. He superceded everything the Jews held sacredóHe was the very person and presence of God. ALL was contained in him. ALL was fulfilled in him. It's amazing, isn't it, when you think what really happened when Jesus came. In the word of astrophysicists, his incarnation was truly a singularity! Praise him! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Hannah and Colleen, Colleen, you're so gifted. Does anyone know what the Deuteronomy text means referring to a thousand generations? (7:9) | ||
| Bibleonly (Bibleonly) |
Anyone near Keene Texas (Southwestern Adventist University) started a former Adventist fellowship? I don't like that term "former fellowship." What about those currently in bondage in the SDA Church that are searching? Why don't we have anything for those in transition? Or do we? Keene SDA Church has 60 retired pastors -- a mecca for narrow-mindedness! BibleOnly | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Actually, BibleOnly, FAF is specifically to minister to those who are in transition and need support as they leave. The name is not "former fellowship"óit's former ADVENTIST fellowship! The fellowship is very current! Our experience has suggested that those who are still in the church but are searching are really unwilling to openly attend something for "formers". The needs of people inside but searching are actually different from those who have decided to leave despite the losses they'll incur. The problem with leaving Adventism is that most people who leave do so because of disagreements with the church, not because they've found Jesus. Those who have left without finding Jesus really do have specific needs for fellowship and truth. We read one statistic about three years ago that stated only 2% of SDAs who leave ever attend another church. Those who leave because they've found Jesus literally face varying forms of loss and persecution from friends and family. Leaving for reasons of conscience is a painful and deliberate decision, and those who make it usually feel completely alone. As far as ministering to those still searching insideówebsites such as this one and Dale Ratzlaff's and Mark Martin's and Dirk Anderson's, etc., directly address their needs for information and answers to questions. At the "still searching" phase, people usually much prefer to be anonymous. After they've decided to leave they're often more willing to know and be known. This phenomenon is natural and almost universal. Furthermore, God in his sovereign grace puts people in our lives who can nurture us and whom we can nurture during that (often lengthy) "inside but still searching" phase. Perhaps God's calling you to such a nurturing ministry, BibleOnly? It sounds as if there are many in your community who need to know the truth. Praise God for giving us his work to do! Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Colleen do you think that the reason very few attend different churches is the sabbath issue and the ability to trust again? Those were my two biggest obsticals to get over. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Violet, I left for about 10 years and did not attend a church regularly because I was sick of following rules, I was sick of people telling me what to do, what to eat, what to wear. I did not know Jesus because I did not believe in Adventism and I associated the two together. I wasn't even sure that there was a God and I used to say if there was I had some big questions for Him. A lot of the friends I grew up with are in that boat. They don't attend church, they live like the rest of the world and they don't know Jesus. I realize a lot of people on this forum loved Adventism and their answer would be much different than mine. To me, it just wasn't anything I wanted to do. I felt like a freak and I hated it. There was no joy in "religion", just vain religious deeds. I always dreaded Jesus' return because I had no relationship with Him and didn't really know if I even wanted to go to heaven. Wow, that seems like a different lifetime. Guess actually it was. For those who feel a security within the denomination it must be devastating. I think mostly the devastation comes from their placing their trust in a denomination instead of Jesus. Not to be a pain, but I started the thread with a specific question about Deut. 7:9...anybody????? Hello.....OK, just call me a pain, but I really don't understand this verse. | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
This just breaks my heart. It's what is so truly sad about legalism. It crushes the spirit of those under its yoke, then makes them hesitant to put on any other yoke. What they fail to realize is that we're all born under a yoke anyway, the yoke of sin. Pray that everyone who is struggling, or who has made the choice to leave, will gladly accept the yoke of Christ, which is "light, and His burden is easy." As far as your question Sabra, my understanding is that, under Old Covenant, Israel was to be a perpetual, eternal nation. The prophecy is a conditional one. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, I'll take a stab at Deut. 7:9. I don't think I have a completely definitve answer, but here's what I gather from it and also from similar verses in Ex. 20:6 and Psalm 105:8 and 1 Chronicles 16:15. The authors of all of these statements are saying, essentially, that God keep his covenant of love with his people endlessly. I believe the "thousand generations" reference is symbolic of endlessness. Some of these verses also have a contrast accompanying them. Ex. 20:6 is preceded by "punishing the cnildren for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." Deut. 7:9 is followed by, "But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him." 1 Chron. 16:14-16 says, "He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac." Psalm 105:7-9 says almost exactly what 1 Chron. 16:14-16 says. I beleive that these texts mean that God does not make his covenants lightly. Every covenant he made with humanity was unconditional except the Mosaic covenant. His covenant to Abraham was unconditional and eternal. So was his covenant to David that a king from his line would always be on the throne. Even his covenant to Noah was unconditional. Similarly, the New Covenant is eternal. Only the Mosaic covenant with the 10 Commandments and the Isrealite laws was conditional. It existed from 430 AFTER Abraham until Jesus came. I believe these verses mean God's promises to Abraham will never fail or cease. The statements of God's judgment are also sure; he does not let anyone sin successfully forever. But God's promises to Abraham are true for both Christ-following Gentiles and Jews. Romans also is clear that a time is coming when the Jews' hardness of heart will end, when the "full number of Gentiles has come in," and the Jews will again be evangelized (in some way) with the gospel. Galatians is likewise clear that all those who live by faith, who accept Jesus and become by faith children of God, are the descendants of Abraham. In short, I believe that Israel received these verses as confirmation that they would always be God's people. His call to them is irrevocable. On this side of the cross, we can also understand them to mean that all of us Gentiles who live by faith and are therefore children of Abraham can also claim God's promises to Abraham as eternally ours. There may be more here, but that's just how I see these verses as I look at them briefly. Oh, Violet, I think the reasons people usually don't find another church after leaving Adventism are many. Sabra really explained one unfortunately common reason. I think some people also become disillusioned because they believed Adventism was the truth, and if they couldn't live with it or make sense of it, certainly no one else had more truth! And as Sabra said, Jesus was equated with Adventism and seen through Adventist eyes. You certainly couldn't trust anyone else's definition of Jesus if you couldn't trust Adventism's. Praise God for his eternal promises! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Colleen, I wondered too if it was symbolic, I don't know exactly what the Hebrew word there was and that might be significant. Forever and always and eternally are used a lot in the Bible so I wonder why it wouldn't be used here. I tried to think real deep and wonder if it were one thousand different generations, referring to different tribes, but I confused myself! ha! An Adventist I was corresponding with used it to show that Sabbath will be observed in heaven, that's why it came up. Don't really know, my pastor didn't have an answer either but did a whole sermon this week on bridging generation gaps and talked about this verse. I wonder if he's wondering too. Just one more mystery! I'll let you know if I find anything else out. Have a blessed week! Sabra | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Sabra, I'll bet the "thousand generations" has a lot in common with Jesus' "seventy times seven". What do you think? Since the Pharisees (I've heard) taught that you were only required to forgive someone THREE times, I'm sure Peter thought Jesus would applaud him for his generosity! Four hundred and ninety times must have been so shocking, I'm guessing that the disciples readily understood Jesus meant for them to lose count. I suspect the same idea is in view in Deuteronomy. Den<>< | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Den, I see you got your password straightened out. God bless you !! Sabra | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Scripture is filled with statements like this, and they are constantly being misinterpreted. When I went to my class reunion, I came back and told people "EVERYBODY was there!". Does this mean that the entire class was there? No. Does this mean that every living person on planet earth was there? No. I meant it to say that I saw nearly all of my high school friends there. "unto a thousand generations", in context, means "I am more faithful than you can even begin to fathom in your feeble and limited humanity." Another $.02 worth =) | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Thanks Sabra -- Yeah, I kept guessing and finally remembered!! I'm glad to be back in touch! Freeatlast, I agree with your assessment. Den<>< | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Dennis, are you any relation to either Tina or Kim Rainwater with ties to Fresno, California? | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Yes, Kim and Tina are my cousins... We all attended FAA at one time (too many years ago, now!) Feel free to e-mail me at denrainwater@earthlink.net if you want to visit further. Den<>< | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Dennis, I graduated from FAA in 1982, with Tina! Kim and I both worked together as Teachers' Assistants for the same teacher. Small world, eh? My email is paradmin@sprynet.com. | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Dennis, I emailed you from two different email addresses, both returned undeliverable. =( | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Freeatlast, I've sent you an e-mail so you can reply directly... Yes, it's a very small world! I have a step-sister who still teaches in Fresno! Sabra, sorry for temporarily hijacking your thread!! You can take it back now! God bless all, Den<>< | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
No problem!! I think it was about over anyway. |
