| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Does anyone watch Perry Stone? He is doing an extensive teaching into the healing aspect of communion. He says that while the blood represents salvation and deals with our Spirit, the bread represents Christs' body which took on all of our infirmities. He is teaching that if you take daily communion and discern the body of Christ for what it represents, you will be healed-mentally and physically. Any thoughts on this? He is taking it from 1Cor. 11 where it says that verse 30-For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (because they don't discern the body verse 29) He also examines other verses that indicate God does not want us sick, of course we will die because of sin, but He desires for us to live a long, healthy life. No conviction on the theory, but it is interesting. He has many testimonies of people who were sick with cancer and other things who started taking daily communion and were miraculously healed. Even a testimony from Johnny Cash who was very ill until he started taking daily communion. He stresses that it is NOT magic and should not be taken lightly. (???) | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Goodness, it sounds a bit like witchcraft to me. Don't get me wrong, communion is precious! Very precious! But this sounds a bit like hocus pocus even if he says it isn't...if this was the case, why didn't Paul get healing for his "thorn in the flesh"? My thoughts only...I just don't see that there is an emphasize on even a small portion of the new outside of one text....But again, I don't know. It just doesn't bear witness with my spirit that there is truth in it. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra, there are some Christians (like the Penecostals) who believe that "healing is in the atonement". In other words, that it is as guaranteed 100% of the time as our salvation. It sounds like that is where this guy is coming from. I found this quote in a book called "Empowered Evangelicals" by Rich Nathan and Ken Wilson, and hopefully it will say it better than I can. "The empowered evangelical (it's just a term he uses to refer to those Christians who believe that the gifts of the Spirit, for instance healing, are still in operation in the church today) view of the relationship between healing and the Atonement of Christ is simply to say that healing, like every kingdom benefit, comes in and through the cross of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus is our mediator and his sacrificial death alone gives us access to the throne of grace, anything we receive from God--whether our daily bread, the forgiveness of sins, physical healing, or our resurrection bodies--comes through the cross of Christ. Nevertheless, our understanding of the two comings of Christ (his birth and his second coming) shapes our perception regarding what is guaranteed now and what is guaranteed only as a result of the second coming of Christ. We believe that WE CAN GUARANTEE to all who come to Christ in simple trust and repentance the forgiveness of sins 100% of the time without fail. No undiscovered sin in the person's background, demonic principality, unrepented of sin in the church, or any other human or demonic power can in any way keep a person from being totally forgiven all of the time when that person turns in repentance and faith to the cross of Christ. But we can make no such guarantee regarding physical healing. The benefit of physical healing brought into this age in the kingdom ministry of Jesus is only partial, not total. The NOT YET of the kingdom means that not everyone will be healed even if they have perfect faith. And even regarding those who do get healed, all of them will surely die if Christ does not return first. Thus, holding onto the NOT YET of the kingdom enables us to avoid the common pastoral problem of blaming the victim for not receiving healing. One day we will all be totally healed--physically, psychologically, relationally--but that day is not yet. In the meantime, our efforts(he's speaking of following the Lord's direction to pray for people's healing...not seeing it as being our power behind the healing), though essential, will produce partial, imperfect results. But partial imperfect results are better than none!" Rich Natha is coming from the standpoint of seeing that we are living between the time of the "already" and the "not yet". Christ has already come and provided for our salvation and given the Holy Spirit, including the gifts of the Spirit for ministry, to the church. But it is only at the second coming that we will see all the other stuff perfected. For example, it is only THEN our healing will be perfect...no more sickness or death. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I'm sure I am doing the study no justice by posting just a bit of it. It is very extensive. Again, I'm not convicted of it but let me try to explain it a little more. First, he is not guaranteeing healing or saying that a person won't ever be sick. I've known a few pentecostals and the ones I know believe that healing is possible all of the time, but not granted all of the time. A lot of them have faith in faith and some other issues, but this man isn't pentecostal. The main point of the study is that Jesus' blood, the wine, obviously deals with our salvation, so why the bread? Some reference is given to the manna given to the Israelites representing a type of Christ which sustained them for 40 years while they wondered around and didn't even wear out their sandals. In other words, it sustained them physically. Then there is reference to the physical punishment Christ took on during the crucifiction and each thing represents Him taking that specific affliction from us. Then a parralel to the passover lamb which was the only animal that was to be eaten in it's entirety after it was cooked, on a stick, upright, with the intestines wrapped around the head (all symbolic to Jesus on the cross with the crown of thorns on His head) and apparantly, according to the custom, as each part was eaten, (eyes, ears, etc.) that part of the body was healed if afflicted within the tribe. (I've heard this from some jews too so it's not just this guy) The thought that came to mind was, why would Jesus ever want us sick if it were possible that we could live a long, healthy life here until we die? Maybe there is something to it, I don't know, but if it were only about heaven, we would only need the wine/blood. He does say that He came to give us life that we might live it abundantly and look how many Godly men in the Bible lived to 120 or older. Not trying to debate at all, just interesting to me. I've left a LOT out, It does seem really strange at first, but I'll pray about it and see what the Spirit leads me to. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, the verse in 1 Corinthians 11 that you mentioned is interesting. Verse 29 say, "For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." He continues, as you mentioned, that many among them have become weak and sick and a number have died ("fallen asleep"). There are actually two ways to read that text. (see text notes in the NIV Study Bible.) One is to read it that a person takes communion without recognizing that the bread symbolizes Christ's body. The other is to read it that a person takes communion without recognizing the nature of the church as the body of Christ. I tend to lean to the second interpretation because of the context. In verses 17-22 Paul is addressing the fact that when the Corinthians met toegether to eat the Lord's Supper, there were divisions among them. He chastises them because some were hogging the food and eating to satisfy their hunger while others were being left out. "One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the chruch of God and humiliate those who have nothing?" he says in v. 21-22. Then Paul reiterates to them the symbolism of the Lord's Supper and recounts how Jesus had given them this ritual. Jesus never specified how often his followers were to take communion, and he also never indicated that physical health would result from it. I do think, however, that the whole miracle of being born again often does improve physical health! Stress lowers, there is more internal peace and calmness, and sometimes God does heal people. I tend to think the passage in 1 Corinthians is not about physical healing but about healing between the members of the body of Christ, but I probably do not have a comprehensive understanding of this text, either. I agree that you should pray about it and let God lead you. That's really the only way to know what is real! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I didn't mention one part of the text that I think is significant. It's the part about the reason many have grown weak and sick and have died. In v. 31 Paul says, "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." I think Paul is saying that the Corinthians' illness and even death was God's discipline for disrespecting communion by their divisiveness and greediness. He is clear that they are Christians and that this discipline is from the Lord so they will not be eternally condemned. He further clarifies that if we judge ourselves, we won't come under God's judgment, or discipline. If the Corinthians had treated each other well, God wouldn't have had to discipline them so severely. I think that perhaps the Corinthians were being used as an example to the entire church, warning others that communion was a serious thing that they were to respect because of its spiritual implications. Communion reminds us that Jesus is the bread of Life, human as we are, and his body is the veil that protected us from the presence of God before his death. (see Hebrews 10:19-21) The blood washes us and opens a new way for us to be intimate with the Father. We are to respect Christ's body as well as the body of Christ when we take communion! Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Colleen. I do see your point. I'm still praying about it, and studying some other passages. 3 of us had communion at work today, it was really inspiring! You have to know these girls I work with. We have all been there about 5 years, we have come through divorces, cancer, marriages, grandchildren, pregnancies, we used to be some WILD girls. I wont even go into that but we were no saints for sure, and now for us to be gathered together in prayer and reading scripture and taking communion, it's just WOW! I'm so amazed at how God works in our lives. Just want to praise Him for His goodness, Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I've been amazed at how God brings people into our lives to support us. That's wonderful about your friends at work, Sabra! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
sabra, that's cool about your friends at work. you remind me of my best friend (since 7th grade,) who lives in kentucky, when you say "it's just WOW!" she's always saying things like that. we too talk about how far we've come - it's amazing when we look back on the things we did as teens, then in our 20s, and even well into our 30s (we are now 40), and now we pray together, share scripture, praise God, etc. it's really awesome to see how God works, esp when you look back and can see how sometimes his timing and work takes years and years, what we would consider a L-O-N-G time! that thought encourages me for lost friends, brothers, father, etc. on another note, i just returned from an alaskan cruise (alaska is awesome, the cruise was good but not quite "awesome.") now am spending the summer at home (first time working in a school and having summers off - yippee!!!) i want to ask for your prayers that i spend this "extra" time growing closer to my Savior, and make good use of it. i have a tendency at times towards depression and melancholy, and sometimes want to "nap" away my free time. I have found myself, since leaving the sda church last fall, go through a number of "stages" and have felt sort of "stuck" the past few months. i long for the enthusiasm of colleen, sabra, & sherry to study and spend time with God, but i find myself more often content/satisfied where i am - i.e., saved - and have lost the enthusiasm i had in the beginning (of my leaving sda-ism.) don't know if i'm making sense but have promised my friend to make the effort to spend time with God now that i have an abundance of it. would appreciate all your prayers. thanks, carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Hey Carol, I would love to go to Alaska! Africa is my dream though.  My bestest friend lives in Crossville, about two and a half hours from me so we don't see eachother much anymore. I used to take the trip quite frequently to go partying with her up there (I used to live there too) but now she is recently in church too and we have moved on to much bigger and better things! It is really cool to see all of my friends getting saved and changing their lives! All except the two SDA's I still keep in close contact with--one is engaged to a Muslim and the other is a wild child. hmmmmm I will certainly pray for you! I used to have that depression problem, really bad at times. Haven't had it in a long time-praise God! Church keeps me really busy, I joined the choir a few weeks ago! For me I have to be careful what I feed my spirit so to speak. The more I study, the more I want to know. If I let myself get too involved or worried about work etc. I start losing that enthusiasm. Do you have a great book you've been wanting to read? Secrets of the Vine is a great one and short enough to read in a week or so. I really liked it! E-mail me sometime and let me know how you're doing! Blessings, Sabra | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Hi Carol, I know you were addressing your thoughts to Sabra, but just wanted to let you know I will be praying for you this summer! God bless you, Janet | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
thanks janet, and all of you, for your prayers, i probably should have reworded my post, i was asking for prayer from all of you - guess i should have posted on the "prayer request" thread. duh! i continue to enjoy and receive great encouragement from this forum - thanks everyone! love and prayers, carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
OK, I know I don't have any takers on the communion thoughts, but just one more thought I am musing...I have really been praying about this and I just feel like it's not a bunch of nonsense. Just what if...like in Exodus 12 at passover the Israelites were taken out of Egypt, the blood over the doorpost saved them from death and they ate the unleavened bread verse 39 and they were brought out safely and without even their shoes being worn out, and then there is that mention of them eating the unleavened bread for 7 days and then the feast of the Lord on the seventh in Chapter 13 OK, what if...this is a revelation to the church of today for protection from the terrorism of today and to bring us out of this earth in one piece. Has anyone ever thought that since God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th that we might inhabit this world for 6000 years and then be given our rest? According to the Jewish calendar, I'm, told it's not quite 6000 years yet. No, I am not trying to perdict the date of the Lord's coming, and I know this might all seem a bit strange, but there is a verse in one of the Gospels where I think it's Peter and John see Jesus and don't know Him and then He breaks bread with them and they suddenly know Him....does the bread give revelation? Look, it's really late, I'm really tired, so if I wake up tomorrow and ralize that this is totally crazy, forgive me. I'm sorry to sort of jumble all of my thought together like this, I hope you all don't mind me thinking outloud. Any thoughts? | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
I think the statements in 1 Cor. 11:28 gives us two choices, as believers: we have a choice between examining ourselves or we can enter into discipline from God (because we don't examine ourselves). "But let a man examine himself (identify known sins and name them to God) and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup" Every believer has the right to partake in communion elements but we are also warned to never eat or drink these elements with unconfessed sin in the life. "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself (discipline from God) IF he does not judge the body rightly" vs. 29 For this reason (because they have not judge themselves; because they have partaken in communion with sins )many among you are weak (this is a warning discipline to get our attention) and a number sleep (they were warned, repeatedly and they ignored each warning until they died the sin unto death) vs. 31-But if we judged ourselves rightly (do it the right way--confess known sins before you partake) we should not be judged (no divine discipline) But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. (I think this verse simply states that as a believer in Jesus Christ we are no longer among those condemned. But we have placed ourselves under the authority of Christ and when we deviate from his way of thinking we place ourselves under his disciple>. Unbelievers are not disciplined by God as they are not part of his body). The "if" in verse 31 indicates the Corinthian believers should have been judging themselves but were not! The divine discipline from God because of this was devastating the congregation. Some were weak---early warnings. Some were sick---physical illness from more intensive discipline. Some were sleeping---this is the Greek word Koimao which is used for the physical death of believers only (i thess. 1:14 uses this word as well) If a believer stubbornly resists the discipline warnings from God they may prematurely die by terminating their life through "dying discipline"--the sin unto death. Think about it--you can become such a carnal Christian with your emphasis on the wrong things that even though you are saved you are such a detriment to the Work of the Lord (such a bad example of the TRUE Christian way of living) that he removes you from this earth. Examples of this discipline are: Prodigal Son---he was under divine disciple; saw his error, confessed, the discipline stopped and he was blessed. David---Oh, my goodness! Did the man after God's own heart make some horrible (on purpose) mistakes? ---Sometimes the residual effects of our sins have lasting effects after we confess. David's discipline didn't end as soon as he confessed however God did turned his discipline into blessing. (So.....the longer we remain carnal the longer the residual discipline may be). | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
So, do you think, possibly the world is coming under condemnation and by discerning the body of Christ we could escape that condemnation and/or discipline? Did you understand my questions about the 6 days and the 6000 years and the 7th day being the day of the Lord-the 1000 years reign (For the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day)?????? What about this one-The coming of the Son of man will be like unto the days of Noah. It rained for 40 days and the water was on the earth 150 days. 40x150=6000. OK, the transfiguration-Matt. 17 After (six) days(6000 years??) Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, led them on a mountain by themselves, there He was changed..... Ok, if it was approx 4000 years from the creation to the cruxifiction, that would mean that the church was under grace for the last 2000 years, less according to the Jewish calendar, they say it should be 1998 now, OK, so Look at Christs birth, death and resurrection, He represents the church. The first two days He was in the tomb and on the 3rd day He rose, the church could be here 2000 years and go after that, again, not trying to predict the day or the hour!! Look at Luke 24:45-46. Then He opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures. He told them, The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day. Now, Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will restore us, that we may live in His presence. The miracle of the wine, John 2: (not a quote) On the (third) day a (wedding) took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there and Jesus and His diciples (the church)???? had also been invited to the wedding feast.........verse 8 Draw some out now and take it to the Master of the feast...the Master didn't know where it came from but was surprised that He had saved the best for last (Israel??) And last but certainly not least, since it has been such a mystery.....The Deut text about the thousand generations....I will keep my covenant with them for a thousand generations. 30,000 years is 3000 years if a day is like a thousand, that would make 2000 years under grace and a thousand for the millineum. Or, not knowing my history all that well, if the Old Cov was made around a thousand years after the creation, it could have lasted until the cross. Thenew covenant was complete at the creation according to Hebrews 4 but not instituted until the cross because of sin. Am I nuts? Do you all think I'm crazy? I feel like a million things are coming into my head and I can hardly sort them all out. Isaiah 46:10- I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. All of this isn't my own revelation, I have been enlightened by a few things that people have brought to my attention and the more I study, the more things are seeming to come into place, I think I have a lot more to comprehend, and I'd appreciate your thoughts. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
oops, maybe the 30,000 years would be 30,000 days, so it remains a mystery | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Sabra, it really sounds like you are looking very hard for someone to come along side you and agree with you. Now I could be wrong. But can I ask you a question? What is your desire in this? What are you wanting from people? What are you wanting from God? Now I really enjoyed your post, Lori, because it was helpful to me in Christian living and what discipline means biblically. Sabra, you said...So, do you think, possibly the world is coming under condemnation and by discerning the body of Christ we could escape that condemnation and/or discipline? Now, maybe I'm missing something here....isn't the world already under condemnation because of self-condemnation, but that all who believe on Jesus Christ shall be saved...John 3:16-21. We escape condemnation by receiving Jesus Christ. The tokens of the Lord's Supper are symbolic of that relationship. And as a Child of God, we do not escape discipline...this is part of our sonship/daughtership.....but we escape condemnation. First and foremost is your relationship with Christ. He saves you. Salvation is in no other. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
My opinions is: There is no formula to determine the time of Christ's return. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Lori! And Sherry, I agree with you that the only way of safety is being in relationship with Christ. Perhaps the numbers have some significance, but if so, I don't think we can know it now. Jesus was quite clear that all we need to do is to believe and receive the new birth of the Holy Spirit (which is the guaranteed result of accepting him!). When people begin focussing on dates and numbers and symbols as insights into truth, they often veer off into mysticism. (The Jewish Kabalah, for instance.) Metaphors, as our women's ministry leader Elizabeth Inrig continually reminds us, are instructive if we look at them globally. If we try to make each detail match up with something in our experience, however, the metaphor falls apart, and we lose the significance of its meaning. My personal opinion about dates and days and years is that they tell us what has already happened; they do not tell us how or when things will happen. We really only understand prophecy AFTER it is fulfilled. Then the prophecies make sense, and we can say, "I get it; God told us this would happen, but he didn't give us the details. So THIS is what he meant!" Accepting Jesus is the only way to escape condemnation, as Sherry stressed above. Communion is only for believers, and it represents our relationship to Jesus, our birth into his family, our participation in his death and resurrection. It is not in itself protective or saving. It foreshadows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb mentioned in Revelation and hinted at by Jesus when he said he would not drink the fruit of the vine again until he drank it new with his people in the Kingdom. Praise God for giving us all we need to know while simultaneously protecting us from knowing the future! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I don't think I'm trying to get anyone to agree with me, I'm not agreed on it myself. Sometimes it is just good to look at another's point of view. I respect everyone's opinions and they help me grow. I have been very involved in witnessing to a Catholic person whom I feel God has put in my path for some reason. He has some pretty wild doctrines and beliefs and I don't want to criticize those beliefs without studying into them somewhat, not that I will criticize them then either, just maybe explain some things with some biblical insight. I am very grounded in my faith in Jesus and I know the Holy Spirit will guide me. I do think there is a much more complex understanding in the Bible than just the simplicity that saves us. Not that we need it to be anymore saved, just maybe God wanted to challenge our minds somewhat. I wasn't speaking of condemnation from God, I know I'm not condemned by Him. Maybe I shouldn't think out loud so much, it's not easy to get across the fact that I just find things interesting on the computer. In type it probably seems like I'm a lot more focused on it that I am. Thank you all for your comments, Blessings, Sabra | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hey Sabra, there are former Catholic sites out there as well. http://www.excatholicsforchrist.org has some info that might be useful to you. The article on Do You Know Mary is interesting. There's good info in The Catholic Way of Slvation and Reaching Catholics for Christ articles also. It's kind of fascinating really to look at some of their stuff. They face many of the same challenges as former SDA's in witnessing to those still inside their church. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Lydell, I will definately check it out. I know God puts these people in my path for a reason. I'm praying for specific revelation to this person on God's calling for his life and the confirmation of at least two witnesses. I can really see that he has Christ and is really searching. Your prayers are appreciated too, thanks. |
