| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
The article at the link below is a "must read." It is a transcript of a speech given by Jan Paulsen, General Conference President, last month in Greece. If you don't have time to read anything else, read points #3 and #4: http://www.adventistreview.org/2002-1524/story3.html Prepare to be astonished! | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
"We shun the perception of being arrogant, and we don't want to come across as being overly exclusive, but at the same time we believe that being Seventh-day Adventists has direct bearing on our salvation; that while a believer can be saved as a Catholic, I would risk my whole spiritual life and salvation were I to leave what I am now and join any other community." -- Jan Paulsen I don't know about anyone else, but that does it for me. I read that to mean exactly what it says, that being an SDA has direct bearing on salvation. And yet, what does that do with Christ? If "God is not exclusively theirs" as he claims, then why does he suggest that God specifically blesses SDA's? Did Peter lie when he said that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:36)? Does God really care if you're SDA, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc or does He care about what we do with His Son? If God truly is no respecter of persons, if He truly does show no favortism, then it SHOULDNT matter if I'm an SDA or not. I've been studying SDA for over a year now, and that completely nails it for me. If my salvation is dependent on being SDA, then count me out. In addition, the SDA church has no right then to claim that God's people are in all churches. At it's base it's a direct about face from their remnant message. The SDA remnant message is that God's people are Seventh-day Adventists ONLY. Would Jan Paulsen himself dare to look me in the eye and tell me that no matter how much I love Christ and accept Him in my life that if I dont become SDA and keep the Sabbath that I cant enjoy heaven? I dont even want to speculate the answer to that question. This idea of the remnant is completely anti-Gospel and it makes me sick! But that's just my two cents. God bless! Joel | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well I just took that quote and mailed a letter of concerned to over 20 people, many SDA, many formers. Let's see what God does.  | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
by the way, thank you for posting it! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
What is even more disturbing to me is that this speech was given in front of 45 world leaders--many of whom were Division Presidents and scholars. They were so impressed that they wanted transcripts to be made available for the body at large. Evidently no one in the structure took him to task. They saw absolutely nothing wrong with his statements. Sherry, if you didn't read the whole thing I suggest you do. Joel's quote, while probably the most serious is only one of several outrageous statements. If you don't have time to read the whole 11 page speech, read points #3 and #4. In His Grace (and not looking back) Doug | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
The implication is that you are saved until you become an SDA at which point, if you leave, you're a goner. Once you have "the truth", anything short of building on that is apostasy. That all other "ignorant" Christians are saved, but those "in the know" better not let go, or in doing so you make a quick exit straight to Hell. No wonder leaving was so agonizing an experience for me! This is perfectly consistent with their teachings and philosophy, and it keeps people trapped. I can say, with all honesty, that the divorce from SDA was harder on me than the divorce from my wife. My wife didn't say I would go to hell if I left (although "go to hell" was said once or twice, not literally of course =) | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Thanks Doug.. I will check it out when I've got some time. Isn't it amazing to think we were there not so long ago? How astounding and amazing it is that God can change a heart like that! I loved your "and not looking back". Your faith and confidence in where you're at in this journey is encouraging to me. | ||
| Lucias (Lucias) |
Freeatlast, You said : "The implication is that you are saved until you become an SDA at which point, if you leave, you're a goner" And thats the whole point. That is the whole answer to "Do you believe you have to be an SDA to be saved ?" The usual answer is "No of course not". The correct answer is "No but once you are you can never leave and still be saved". Very different isn't it ? Doug, Thanks much for that link it truly is a useful article. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I have a wild 2 year old running around the house and admit, I didn't read the whole thing, but it looks like what I had always been taught, just being re-defined to "tighten the reigns" on the current SDA's. I doesn't seem out of line to me with their bizarre teachings. Let me know if I'm missing something (?) | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
When I read that quote, I copied it to my mother-in-law with whom I've been trying to share the truth about SDA to her. I asked her straightforwardly if I had to be an SDA to be saved, and she gave me the classic "No of course not" answer you all described above. Then she proceeded to explain to me how my mind has been confused by reading anti-Adventist literature and sent me a copy of Bacchiocchi's response to Greg Taylor's Maniesto. I then told her what I had been holding back for so long, that I just can't accept Adventism as the truth because to accept it would be to reject the God I know. It was painful to do. I spent all last night at work thinking about how to her I committed that Unpardonable Sin of rejecting the "truth". I discovered the truth about SDA through this forum and other sites. I don't think it was at all by accident. I just pray that my own marriage does not suffer as a result of my stand for Christ. I pray for my wife and her family constantly, and with our baby due in a few weeks, I dont know what to expect. But I know for sure that I'm not giving up on my God. =) Tightly in His grace, Joel | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Joel, absolutely it was no accident that you found this site. That was that pillar of fire going before you leading you to truth. Guys, I just went over and read more of the tripe on this article. You know, it is kind of refreshing (that's sarcasm folks!)to hear one of the leaders finally speaking out the truth that they are all about sheep stealing. You know, I think we all need to realize that this is an opportunity for us to pray very specifically about something. I can look back at where I was when we were getting agitated about the errors in the church. And I can say without any shadow of doubt that if I had read something like this back then, it would have been a big push right out the door. We all know that there will be some who will read this and will get more nervous about the idea of leaving. And our prayers for them should be that the Holy Spirit will do for them what He did for each of us, become their filter to sift through the tripe and be grabbed by the error. But you know, there is that other group. The one who is already agitated. The folks who have been already smelling the stench and the Holy Spirit can use this piece to just stab that one nerve that is THE thing that they can no longer ignore. Maybe it is because they have made a good friend who is a Christian, or know someone they highly respect who has left and is obviously still Christian. Whatever has happened or WILL happen in their life soon, this thing is going to just annoy them no end. And it can be used to be the push out the door for them. I think that is the group of folks we need to be praying for heavily right now. That this seed is planted and becomes a continually niggling annoyance to them. What do you think? | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lydell, You are right that this may be the impetus to push some people toward the Hospel. Sadly, others are too blind to see right now. I shared this article on another forum. There are a cople of die hard Adventists that frequent it. One said they agreed with what he had to say, afterall, "if you were Catholic, and left what you believed, it would definitely have an impact on your salvation." The other person said that he didn't agree with everything that Paulsen said, but he was just expressing his opinion. He signed his statement, "The Gospel Warrior." To me, Paulsen's statements are like George Bish giving a State of the Union address and saying that America isn't built on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; and then having congress give him a standing ovation. Not a problem, just his opinion. No one is so blind as those who will not see. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Joel, I am praying for you and your struggle. I understand. Cling to Christ and let Him show you the Way. My heart goes out to you, this isn't an easy thing you are doing. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Exactly right, Lydell! I sent that quote off with my personal comments to a number of Adventists through e-mail. With the Holy Spirit's leading I'm composing a letter to send out to everyone in my old church family. This is an awesome opportunity. Maybe just in time for the start of FAF's across the country! Wouldn't that be awesome. God will use this to expose many people to the truth of the Gospel, or harden hearts that are standing in the middle. I think it is an awesome opportunity! And it would have shoved me right out the door too, I agree. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
OK, I MUST be missing something. I was always taught 1. SDA's are the remnant. 2. Other christians are deceived 3. If those deceived don't convert to SDAism before probation closes they will go to hell 4. Othere christians aren't really "christian" or they would know the "truth" so, of course, it is all about sheep stealing, I thought that was understood. Did you all not grow up with the same wacked doctrines I did? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes, Sabra, we did. It's just that there's been a huge PR effort over the past several years to whitewash (ahem!) their image. Many Adventists, at least in So. Cal, say they don't believe the investigative judgment. Many also say they don't read Ellen or consider her to be important. Mind you, they won't call her a false prophet or renounce her; they merely push her to the back of the closet. At least here in California, most SDA schools don't teach the hard core doctrines in elementary school anymore. Our boys had lessons about Ellen, but they didn't call her a prophet or introduce the IJ. By academy some of the doctrines become more clear, but they're not overtly pushed. Most 20-ish SDAs in this area (with the exception of a few historic Adventist types)are cultural Adventists who don't observe the doctrines but believe they can "make a difference". Besides, they'd lose their social contacts if they left. None of them, howver, will go so far as to renounce the Sabbath even if they intellectually see that it's not a NT requirement. Adventism has a powerful hold on them even though they don't really know what it's about. Also, as you've all probably observed, evangelism is deceptive at first. They specifically present themselves as mainstream evangelicals, whether their venue is lectures, coffee houses, or Easter Sunday services. It's working, too, because I can't tell you how many Christians ask me what's really wrong with Adventism. After all, they have the core gospel right! The reason Paulson's speech is so great is that he's actually, publicly saying that Adventism has not changed and will not change. There is only one Adventism, and it has the same Manual, doctrines, practices, etc. wherever it's found. I'm thrilled to have this document (thanks for the tip, Doug!) just for showing Christians who tell me Adventism is changing. (Just yesterday, in fact, one lady told me it was wonderful that the young Adventists aren't as cultic because they will grow up to replace the old cultic ones, and the church will be OK.) I agree that we need to pray. There are many people who need the information and the courage to take a stand for Jesus and truth and the Bible. And further, the true nature of Adventism needs to become known. Praise God for his timing! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Yes, Sabra, the point is not that I'm surprised at what was said, as much as this is something the church has said they don't believe when confronted by a non SDA, and if proven they believe it with EGW quotes will still skirt the issue if this is possible. The awesomeness of this statement is it's out there in the open from the highest level of the church, the GC president, so we can confront it directly now for all those who don't believe SDAism is that bad, or those who haven't been indoctrinated since early on or those who are struggling may finally go "I can't take it no more! Get me out of here." So that's why this is an opportunity to take the ball and run with it. Many Christians are accepting SDA is a legitimate mainstream or near mainstream church. They need to be informed otherwise, and with such a statement for GC pres., the church can't say...oh we don't really believe that and pull the wool over people's eyes like the SDA church did so eloquently with William Martin and his cults book. That's my two cents. | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Doug, thank you for bringing this article to the forum. I now have the "proof" I need in continuing with my decision---the "internal struggle" weakens with the clarity in which you all share. Thanks again, Janet | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Amen Janet! That's exactly how I feel. This article is going in my archives. If ever I begin to doubt my decision, I will pull it out and read it again! To be honest, I'm not sure how much good it is otherwise. Those who are entrenched in Adventism see nothing wrong with what was said. Only when the veil has been lifted can you see the significance of statements such as these. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra I'm thinking more of like the experiences we had in working with Revelation Seminars (we've already repented of that!). The leadership always spoke to each other along the lines of "now, we don't ever want to tell them who we are because then they will be prejudiced against listening to what we have to say." And the attitude was, "what? We aren't trying to take people away from their churches....why nooooo, we are just trying to get them saved and share some things with them." yeah right |
