| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I consider this a review quiz for me. As a few of you might know, I am not a Seventh-day Adventist nor have I ever been one. However, I am married to one. It is not MY mission to lead my wife out of her faulty beliefs. To be honest, I harbor some hope that it is Godís mission to bring her closer to Him. Right now, I am trusting in His will, whatever it may be. Oh, of course we have gone through some rocky episodes where I tried to convince her of the theological errors. HEY, I hear those ìbeen-there-done-thatî chuckles ;) Wisely, I hope, I have given up on that. Now I pray, love her to the best of my ability, know the Lord loves her, and leave it to Jesus. Just in case God has anything to teach me though you, I though I would pose this question to all you ìFormersî so, perhaps, I can learn from another perspective: We all know that, it was primarily Jesus who acted to bring you to His full love. However, were there any little things that your loved ones or friends did that made any difference? I mean beyond generally loving and living in Grace themselves. Were there any words or actions that helped you? My suspicion is that there may be few examples, if any. I especially suspect that whenever someone actively pursued you, it did not work. It will be helpful to me, and possibly others, if you could confirm, correct, or add to what I believe. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Jerry, Welcome to the forum! I'm probably the only one here who didn't really like being SDA. I learned and knew it, but really doubted it. I was a kid and didn't have any choice. I think a strained relationship with my mother made me doubt too. Really, the actions and lives of other christians influenced me all along. I saw others really happy about christianity and noticed in the SDA church everyone was so solemn and blah. I used to tell my half-sister, who was not SDA, I wish someone could just show me where it would be OK to go to another church. She could tell me, but never could show me. She believes but she's not much of a studier. Finally, my neighbors had such an impact on me that I thought I should prove the Sabbath to them. That's where my personal study began...just me and the Holy Spirit. You can read my testimony in stories. In my search for another church, I thought I would try out 7th Baptist or 7th day church of God so I looked up their beliefs on the internet and somehow stumbled across Dennis Rainwater's "book" and it helped me a lot. I think it's on 'What Adventists NEED to know' So, really, no one showed me anything, I studied myself out. I will put you and your wife on my prayer list. Does she really enjoy the church? Sometimes I think people aren't ready. My mom for instance, if she were to leave she might be devistated. It's her life. Sad really. God's timing!  | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Jerry, Brother, we happen to be in the exact same situation: not SDA, but married to one. However, I'm still trying to rid myself of the "correct her theological errors" mode, which I admit is hard. I guess what I'm wondering is how you came to an understanding of the real truth of SDA and exactly how that fits into your marriage. You can email me personally to save space on the forum if you want since my question to you isnt related to your to the forum. Joel gatororeo7@hotmail.com | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hi Sabra and Joel, Sabra, If I understand correctly, it seems that there had to be an initial dissatisfaction on your part. I am glad to hear that the example of others helped. Joel, I will be happy to answer your question in depth, but now I must run some errands. Hope to hear from others. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Jerry, I share somewhat of a similar experience as Sabra in the fact that there were alwasy some things that I was uncomfortable with in Adventism (i.e. the pride, the separatism, the deception, the Remnant church thing, EGW, etc.) Although I was uncomfrotable, I still participated and embraced the theological position. I have held just about every position in the church and was an Elder at the time that I left. I was doctrinally sound, but had very little interest in the Gospel. Whenever the Gospel was preached or taught, I remember thinking to myself "yeah, yeah, now lets hurry up and get to the good stuff." Now I cannot get enough of it. I believe God had started calling me out a few years before I left. My dissatisfaction grew, the more corruption I saw. I think God really opened my eyes when I participated up close and personal in an evangelistic series. I had never been "behind the scenes" before. To bequite honest with you, I was sickened. There was more manipulation, and smoke and mirrors than most people can ever imagine. This experience led me to want to "make a difference" in my own sphere of influence. i started a home Bible Study group, of which there was little if any interest in from the folks in the church. Now mind you, I was pretty well liked, and most people liked when I preached or taught Sabbath School. They just weren't interested in studying the Bible outside of the appointed times. So, in this study group that primarily consisted of my brother and sister-in-law, two good friends, a died in the wool Adventist, and a non-Adventist (the died in the wool Adventists main purpose was to convert the non-Adventist). As part of the group, I began to use the study guide for Morris Venden's "95 Theses on Roghteousness by Faith: Apologies to Martin Luther." It was presented from an Adventist viewpoint, but it revealed (in my opinion) some major chinks in the SDA theological armour--particularly in the area of their understanding of the Gospel. Soon, a friend and I began attending a "Sunday Church" (the Adventists on this forum will uderstand exactly what I am talking about). The first few times I went there, I was SOOOOOOOOOO UNCOMFORTABLE!!! I believed, like most Adventists that you could go to a "Sunday CHurch," but you could never "worship" there (this is typical SDA pride). But I forced myself to keep going back. The message I heard there was like water to my soul. It was like finding a needle in a haystack. In my spiritual journey, I have found that there is a lot of heresy in many churches (not just SDA). In His infinite wisdom, God led me to the perfect church for me at that time. I attended that church on SUndays, and the SDA church on Saturdays for over eighteen months. Since I was an Elder, I had an opportunity to influence my SDA church, and so I came back and attempted to share the good news of the Gospel there. I met a lot of resistance. Some people (what we call cultural Adventists) just did not care. They had been spoon fed all their lives and weren't willing to even consider that there was anything out there. Spiritually, they had no foundation and were satisfied to just "put their time in" form week to week. Others were what we call Historical Adventists, they were so rooted in the doctrines of the church (and especially EGW), that nothing was going to shake them, and they took great offense to anyone suggesting anything different. Unfortunately those are the two camps in Adventism. Eventually, I came to the realization that no matter how grace oriented a particular church might become (and there are a VERY FEW SDA churches that are really grace oriented), there are certain things that are permanently engrained in the culture that the church requires churches and members to adhere to in order to be "Adventist" and these things cannot change unless the institution changes. So I guess I say all this to say that the only thing I think you can do is to demonstrate the Gospel to your wife. Do not get drawn into theological arguments. Her ONLY purpose in these arguments will be to convince yu of the errors of your ways. Adventists pretty much have a superiority complex and therefore do not believe there is anything (theologically) that they can learn from other churches. WHen God sees fit to remove the viel from her eyes, she will start to question. Then (and only then) can you begin to show her the Gospel. My suggestion would be to remain focused strictly on the gospel. Don't get into discussions about the wrongness of Adventists doctrinal beliefs (i.e. the state of the dead, end time events, and most definitely the Sabbath). As you reveal the gospel, these other beliefs will fall naturally--the Sabbath will be the last to fall. I read on a forum somewhere that the one thing SDA's need to know more than anything else is that God loves them unconditionally. I believe that wholeheartedly. The problem is that you cannot recognize that as long as you believe it it more important to be right. Hope this helps. Doug | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
hi everyone! in response to jerry's question i have two comments. one, my husband (non-sda Christian) never tried to convince me of anything. the very few times early in our marriage when he did try i was so defensive and it immediately led to an argument. he, being more self-controlled, as well as spiritually and scripturally "secure" learned early on to leave it to the Lord! anyway, that was definitely the right thing to do. secondly, my bro-in-law and sister left the church & sent me some materials about egwhite & sda-ism. by sending them via mail, and his not being in the vicinity, i was able to read the materials without his knowing (didn't want to give him the satisfaction ya know?) - anyway i initially read the material with the intent to find its errors, but of course it was the beginning of my leaving adventism. well, my hubbie is calling me to go - sorry if this is jumbled, but on my way out the door and running late - hope this helps someone - love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Welcome Jerry. My husband and I were not raised SDA. We were Christians long before we joined the SDA's (hooked by the rotten focus on endtime prophecies, I'm sorry to say.) I think my time of being comfortable in the SDA denomination lasted less than a year. There was just always stuff there tugging at the back of my mind that what I was seeing and hearing was wrong. For the next 6 years I kept telling myself that it was just the local congregation that was screwy and totally unloving. And that we needed to stay and try to share what we knew about the freedom of the gospel....surely we could make a difference. The next year or two I was finally seeing from the church materials that it wasn't just the locals, it was the whole bundle that stank. By then, we had left the local congregation and attended a local black church (the only whites there....an interesting experience actually). It took less than a year to see very clearly then that the problem was definitely the denomination. But the mindwashing of "if you leave you are doomed" had become ingrained, surprisingly. So we met as a home church for another 5 years or so. Finally we got sick of ourselves and thru our hands up and told God we would go ANYWHERE He led, and that was when we were finally able to hear His direction....the ones he had been trying to give for years! Slow learners. During all of that, I would have to say that the one thing that other Christians (particularly in our homeschool group) did for us was just to live their faith. They would talk quite naturally in our company about the things God was doing in their lives....just being themselves. We went to a couple of Christian concerts (something I MOST HIGHLY recommend you do with your wife!) and again were confronted with the reality that God intended far more in His relationship with us than just the keeping of one day a week. And all that just finally took hold. I would encourage you to develop the habit of naturally talking to your wife about the things you see God doing each day, the particular blessings of that day, a verse of scripture about His overpowering love that He has shown you, get Christian music (non-SDA, of course!) playing in your house, take her to concerts, leave laying around Christian literature you have been reading (when we keep having to dust around things, eventually we pick it up and read it, ya know), get involved with other Christians so she can see them in action. And I think your inclination to not argue is probably very good. Loving her is all important. She is herself, not the denomination. Our pastor has pointed out that many times since he has been in the ministry someone will grumble to him that he needs to "go and talk to" someone who is messing up or has a slightly twisted understanding of scripture they are hanging onto. As if they think that will magically straighten them out. His response is that when the HOLY SPIRIT tells him to talk to them, he will, because that's when he knows they have been prepared to honestly listen and respond. He says he has learned thru the years that if the person isn't listening to the Holy Spirit, they surely aren't going to listen to him either, and he would be wasting his time. And really, I imagine we can all understand that when someone ATTACKS some cherished idea we are hanging onto, it just makes us cling to it all the more and get defensive. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Thanks, everyone, for your generous welcomes and helpful responses. I do not mean this post to shut off anyone else who has something to add. However, I would like to summarize what I hear so far. In addition, I can answer Joelís question since it actually is related to this subject. I met my wife about five years ago. At that time, she was avoiding going to church for several reasons. I told her, when she mentioned that she was SDA, that I would not likely go to that church and asked if this would be a problem in our relationship. She said no, that she did not intend to change my mind. Besides, she was not likely to go back anyway. I knew I was not likely to attend her church because of the name ìSeventh-day Adventist.î Here is why that made me know not to attend: First, I knew, without having studied the anti-SDA literature, that an emphasis on the Seventh-day Sabbath was to distort, add to, or diminish the Gospel message. No, I never believed that Sunday is the ìChristian Sabbath.î I also had enough experiences with other end-time groups to know that concentrating or obsessing on the end-time instead of oneís present relationship with Jesus was dangerous and often led to problem beliefs. Of course, one should always be eager to have Jesus return to establish His Kingdom on Earth. Nevertheless, He is here NOW in our hearts, and NOW is when he can establish his kingdom in our very souls. No wonder He warned us that no one will know the day or hour of his coming but the Father. Aside from an instruction to attend constantly to our relationship with Him, He knew this could be an opportunity for Satan to twist our beliefs. After a while, about two years, she started attending again with much enthusiasm. I was floored when she told me why. She said that the only reason she could get back into a relationship with God was that she learned by our relationship that unconditional love was possible and wonderful. What a wonderful complement to hear. Yet, what a difficult responsibility to bear when you know the things I have discovered. Oh, believe me, I am no saint by any stretch of oneís imagination. Neither am I an ideal husband, let alone one of the better husbands. However, I do know that I will always love her, no matter what. I have met much of her family and friends. They are very nice, loving people. I find it interesting she should say that she never had unconditional love despite what I have learned about the people with whom she grew up. I have my theories about that. After a while, she started to leave literature around, probably at the suggestion of someone at church, possibly just subconsciously. So, I noticed this and thought about it. I concluded that I owed it to her to investigate seriously her beliefs so I understood where she was in her beliefs. However, I did not rely solely on SDA literature. I always checked several opinions on the ideas presented in and out of her denomination. I also researched the history of the group as thoroughly as I could. I went to pro-Adventist, anti-Adventist, and relatively neutral sources. Without fail, I checked out citations very thoroughly. One verse was not enough. I always checked the context in the chapter, book, and throughout similar scriptures. I immediately and eventually firmly concluded that the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine was very limited, distorted, and dangerous. Yes, I am well aware that there are many heresies in most, if not all churches. I grew up with a few in my life. I do think that there are red flags in this denominationís case that warrant classification a little closer to the dangerous end of the theology spectrum than most churches. No, it is not the very worst or among the very worst, but a little closer to that end than general differences in opinion or benign, sloppy theology would cause. Now, on to the summaries: In the spirit of what, I hope, can be a true discussion, I will now give my perception of what you have told me. I am sure I will likely get some things a little wrong. Nevertheless, here I go. The most important thing I believe people here are telling me is that I must be certain that my wife is ready to hear what Non-Adventists have to say about theology, if she ever is ready. In other words, wait! Trust the Holy Spirit to tell you when to talk about it. I certainly learned that the hard way. Yet, I see you mentioning subtly making opposing material passively available. I am not so sure that is always a good thing. Especially in my case where I already violated the ìdonít pursue, attack, or argueî principle. I wonder if not I simply must wait until an obvious initiation on her part occurs, if ever it does. What do you think? And what does anyone else have to say on this subject? How did people help you progress toward becoming a ìFormer?î Trusting in His love. Thanks, Jerry | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Jerry, Most people would rather see a sermon than hear one. Generally speaking, Adventists are NOT a very happy tribe. Their "panic theology" is most frightening--especially to children. For example, some SDA parents read various paragraphs from Ellen White's "Great Controversy" before bedtime to supposedly indoctrinate and prepare their kids for the time of trouble. Many times these children will be tortured with nightmares after hearing how the Catholics are going to chase them and hunt them down as cave dwellers. And note this. Any religion that frightens children is not of God. Consistently, even when life gets tough at times, pray to be a catylst for the Christian faith in your home. Our immediate families should be our primary evangelistic outreach. Your wife will marvel at your genuine happy disposition. Seize every opportunity to make your home a miniature heaven on earth. My wife and I were most impressed with a retired Evangelical Covenant Church minister and his wife, who were our business clients, as we visited their home from time to time. This devout Christian pastor and his wife certainly did not fit the description of being "false shepherds" as we were taught. They did not try to impress us, but their dedicated, happy, and prayerful Christian life was most contagious. They were not phonies, and we knew they were intimately connected with Jesus. Furthermore, we knew they had something very special in their lives that we didn't, despite our arrogant claims. Yes, they were contagious Christians. Likewise, we can all become contagious Christians (those most dear to us will be affected/infected as well). Praising God for contagious Christians! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I agree with Dennis. Other "christians" influenced me greatly as an SDA. Billy Graham really had an impact on me. I couldn't understand how they seemed so close to God if they were deceived and why wouldn't God show them the "truth" if they were so close to Him. Also, very there with the childhood issues. I was scared to death all my early childhood. I was sure I'd be tortured and killed. Sickening! I'm so glad my children don't have to grow up that way. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I believe that studying the Bible and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide one into understanding without an overlying mindset is the main way people begin to undertsand the truth. As far as influencing an Adventist, I'm quite convinced that nothing except our prayers for them really makes a difference. The reason I believe these are the only two truly effective methods for people finding the truth is that the hold on Adventists is not doctrinal or intellectual or interpretive; it is spiritual. When a denomination is based on a lie, is is not of God, matter how reasonable its doctrines seem. As our pastor said a few weeks ago, the "lie" is so important to Satan that he surrounds it with truth to camouflage it. That describes Adventism. Their stated doctrines aren't all that bad. Their foundation is false, and because it was founded on a lie, Satan claims it. Our battle is not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities. Influencing an Adventist is not about "convincing" them, although when they reach a certain point of questioning they need the facts. Influencing ann Adventist is about asking God's spirit to enlighten them against the darkness of the evil spirit that has a claim on them. I know this sounds harsh, but I know it's true. I know how it worked in my own experience, and I've talked to MANY others who have had the same experience. Adventism is not just a slightly-off-the-mark church; it's founded in deception, and that has only one source: Satan. Even though they teach much "truth", it's shrouding the lie that distorts the truth they're teaching. Truth cannot be truly perceived when its taught in a setting of deception. You can say true things, but when you are hiding truths about yourself, your truth is only partial. That is the case with Adventism. Again, prayer and study of the Word are the only ways to understand the truth, I believe. Praise God that he honors honest hearts desiring truth! He does reveal himself to people who want to know him! Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Thank you, Colleen. I have no doubt that you are correct. I learned this the hard way. It certainly made no difference that I could quote large passages of scriptures that directly disproved precisely the thing she said was in the scriptures. In the end, my wife would not even allow me to quote scripture. She would not quote scripture to me no matter how long I gave her to find it. That is a powerful indication of Satanís grasp. I have prayed. I am praying, I will pray. God will let me know what is next in His own time. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Hi,Jerry, I was a SDA girl who married a non-denominational Christian. (Of course, we all thought he wasn't REALLY saved and we were going to fix him by our wonderful examples!!! HA!) My first rejection of SDA philosopies came in highschool. It really gripped me to have to memorize Ellen White's quotes; (and to find out later they weren't even hers!) however, this did not deter me from remaining very Adventist--I still considered the church to be very Biblical. So, I had a real distaste for anything Ellen White; it thrilled me to find out she was a fake; but I remained a Scripture only Adventist. My husband never said one word to me about being "Biblically Correct". He simply did his thing----he had/has a Bible Study hour every day. (He spent a good 6 hour more a week in the Word than I did---I went to church on Saturday and heard my "hour" that carried me through the week. And, I played the piano and sang-I had convinced myself that God had no intentions of reaching me through Bible Study....that I simply was not cut out for that...my communion with God was through music! (I see the stupidity in that now!) My non-SDA husband would not talk doctrine with me---I tried to show him the error of his ways from time to time his reply was always the same, "I'm not going to argue with you". (I thought this meant he knew he was wrong and he just didn't want to deal with the issues. I now know there was no way for him to talk with me because most of "my texts" were taken out of context and I was too ignorant to realize it. And, the same text I was using to prove my side were more often than not the same text he would have used to prove his---see the problem?) So what changed??? After 15 years of marriage I BEGAN TO SEARCH for the truth!! That is where the secret is: THEY MUST BE SEARCHING. You can only help someone out of Adventism that is already searching. You can't give it to them. You can't show it to them. They must be looking for it or nothing will change. My husbands stability in a crisis is what got my attention (loss of a family member, tragedys like the Oklahoma City Bombing, the Branch Davidians,etc.....these never bothered him. As an Adventist the Sept 11 events would have had me being a perfect Sabbath keeper!!) When these things happened he trusted in the Sovereignty of God (he knew God was in control) while I was scared to death that the tribulation was going to start and I would be so late figuring it out that I would caught, imprisoned, my children taken from me, etc..... He had a God who was in control. I had a God who had to be appeased. He had a God who had done it all. I had a God who did part of it and demanded my perfection to complete it. He had a God that gave him stability of soul. I had a God that I could never have full confidence in. It took a long time for me to come around. And, it wasn't just my husband that influenced me. God brought many non-SDA Christians into my life and I saw the conditions of their souls through their actions. And it was completely different then all the SDA people I had known. My advice to you is: Do Nothing, Nothing at all! Every time you want to "fix" your wife--stop and put it in the "Supreme Court of Heaven". Let God deal with it and you stay out of the way. There are SDA church statistics that show: A SDA woman who marries a non-SDA man is most likely to see her error (in marrying outside the church) and remain true to the Adventist beliefs inspite of the marriage. A SDA man who marries a non-SDA woman is most likely to leave the church and never return. Pay attention to when you wife tries to persuade you to Adventism. It likely will closely follow some tragedy which Adventist believe will start the tribulation--closing probation. Her evangelism of you will based upon the fears in her own soul. (And no matter how irrational she may seem just remember everytime she tries to turn you into an Adventist it means she loves you!!!) Don't try to fix her! Just turn your case of "false doctrines" over to the Supreme Court of Heaven. Trust your "Attorney" and make no statements to your wife without your attorneys Divine Presence and Approval. (Let me warn you: He very rarely allows you to speak on your own behalf.) Court precedings can be very lengthy. The defendant and her attorney will have much evidence to prove their side. But do not be discouraged. And most of all, don't fire your Attorney, he's the best!!!!! "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit" | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
good post lori! your marriage experience closely mirrors my own, and i agree, it was best my husband said nothing. even through my studying out of adventism, he kept his mouth shut. and gosh, isn't it absolutely wonderful not to become terrified every time you watch the news? i know many of you formers can relate to that. love and prayers, carol | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Amen Lori! Well said. Doug | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I guess I am just the oposite. I married a non-SDA and I did come out (after 10 years). My husband was real good at questioning my statements. Things I thought were biblical he would ask me to show him from the Bible. After repeated times of not being able to find them (they were all White's quotes) I got frustrated and started looking further. The rest is history. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wonderful post, Lori! Yes, Carol; it's wonderful to watch the news without terror! Colleen | ||
| Alicia (Alicia) |
Hi, Been reading along for weeks. What a relief when someone says something only you would understand if you were raised in this religion. I am so amazed that you've all sought out God. I was so mad at Him for so long. I too knew very young that things said at church and home made no sense, but had a left over feeling of guilt I have finally been able to climb out from under. I see the world in new bright colors. Glad to have found you. God has always sent me angels on earth. love , Alicia | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
welcome alicia! glad you found FAF too! it's been such a blessing and encouragement to me, i know you will continue to receive much support from this forum - yes, it's wonderful and such a relief to find so many others in the "same boat" - God bless you, love and prayers, carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Welcome, Alicia! Isn't it great to know you're not alone?! And you know what? I think God sought out us! Don't you just feel a sense of awe when you think about how he sends us support on our long trudge toward freedom and truth? Again, welcome! Colleen |
