| Author | Message | ||
| Sherry2 |
Tis true, Andrew. But tis also true that we pool monies to help buy medical supplies for communities in need, feed those in need, help those in need. Is this not true as well? I agree a "tithe" is not a New Covenant command, but giving is definitely a New Testament concept. Frankly I cannot wait for the day when we can give so much more than we've been able to. I want to see as many people come to Christ as possible, and as many people who honestly need help, get it. It's about your heart I believe, not about your %. | ||
| Terry |
Andrew, you are on the mark. For an interesting find, go to www.gospelrevolution.com Mike Williams has a great article, and maybe audio on tithing. We are admonished to give as we can by Paul in the New Testament. Tithing is definately a form of spiritual abuse that us being used by chuches today! | ||
| Dennis |
Suppose I earn merely $10,000.00 per year and you earn $100,000.00 per year, and we both have a family of four. Who would be better able to supply the basic family needs after tithing? This represents an UNEQUAL sacrifice; even the IRS allows exemptions for low income, etc. There is no New Testament mandate for tithing. Under the new covenant of Jesus, we are to give as the Lord has blessed us. Notice that the giver determines the amount. Ten percent of income is a good starting percentage for many households, but an extreme sacrifice for others. Some ought to be giving the Lord 60 or 70 percent instead of merely 10 percent. Certainly, we do not have to live like Jews to secure our salvation. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point, Dennis. In the New Covenant, giving includes but is not limited to money. Time and professional services and other skills also belong to Christ. The Holy Spirit has a way of impressing every Christ-follwer with God's will for his or her ENTIRE life! It seems to me that our responsibility is to ask God to show us how he wants us to give instead of deciding that certain things are for the Lord and then not thinking about the issue further. When we walk with Christ, our lives are never static! I struggle with this issue on the level of time when I have days out of school. I can easily become overwhelmed with all the things I don't have time to do while I'm in school or with the desire to just sit and read or. . .you get the idea. I'm learning to give God my day and ask him to show me what he wants me to accomplish and to help me do what He wants me to do that day. Sometimes I have to decide not to fret when I don't get certain things done that I wanted to do. And God does have a way of multiplying time. I don't understand it, but when we give our "overwhelm" to him, he does bring order out of the chaos. The whole issue of giving is taking on a new profile for me. It really is about my whole life! Praising God for choosing to glorify himself in the chaos of our lives, Colleen | ||
| Violet |
Boy, Colleen, you would of never heard that in the SDA church I came from 10% to the conference or you could not be in office. Didn't matter if you spent 40 hours a week doing church work and gave 25% to the local church. This was etched in stone. | ||
| Dennis |
It is often surprising for people to discover that a large segment of the people in Israel did NOT tithe! The owner of a farm had to tithe, but his hired hands were exempt. Was a hired hand required to tithe on his salary? Not at all! There was no law that required a tenth of one's salary to be tithed (which was earned for services rendered). Only the crops and animals of those who owned them were subject to the tithe. After all, the crops and the animals did not belong to the hired hand and only the increase from one's land or animals was subject to the tithe. And note this. Fishermen did not tithe, though this industry is mentioned in the law (Leviticus 11:9-12). Likewise, the mining industry is referred to (Deuteronomy 8:9), but the tithe of minerals extracted from the earth was never called for. The lumber business is mentioned (I Kings 5:7-12) and construction work on buildings (I Kings 5:13-18) but tithes were not extracted from people who worked in those trades. The same held true for those earning an income from weaving, handicrafts, or from any form of manufacturing or merchandising. They all were immune from tithing including all those in the military and government workers. And though the Levites were commanded to pay a tenth of the tithe they received from the farmers and ranchers to the Priests, those Priests themselves were totally exempt from paying any tithe. To make it plain and simple, only the owners of farms and flocks were required to tithe. Indeed, the Israelite who had fewer than ten cattle did not have to tithe on nine of them because the requirement stated that only the tenth animal that passed under the rod was to be tithed (Leviticus 27:32). Looking at this matter of the tenth animal being tithed from our present monetary point of view, a rancher could have many thousands of dollars invested in nine cattle, but unless he had a tenth he was not required to tithe a penny of his assets. Some churches, including Seventh-day Adventists, commonly teach that the tithe is God's and that He must get His money first. But the Bible says it is the tenth animal (the last one) that passes under the rod that is God's, NOT the first. These clear biblical teachings present some real dilemmas for Christian ministers today who want to use the tithe for their church activities. If a minister wanted the members of his church to abide by the tithing laws, why doesn't he teach them to perform them the way the Bible instructs? If church members who live in a city wanted to tithe according to biblical law, they would be paying a tenth of their garden produce (if they had gardens) or a tenth of their chickens (if they had chickens). Even if they earned $2,000.00 a month in other income, that's all they would be required to tithe. This would hardly be enough to support normal church activities today. Yet this is the precise law of tithing which was ordained for Israel by God. There is however hardly a Christian minister (who demands tithing today) who would feel inclined to abide by these laws of the Bible regarding tithing. They want more money than a tenth of what comes from gardens and chicken coops! Furthermore, many people have not realized that Moses gave the Levites the means by which to earn a living without having a dependence upon tithe alone. (Numbers 35:1-3) At least four square miles of land belonged to each of the 48 Levitical cities. Since some of the cities that the Levites inherited were the most prosperous in the nation, their combined property value would almost equal that of the lesser Israelite tribes. These facts ought to put to rest the belief of some church leaders who imagine that the Levites lived solely off the tithe of the other tribes. In no way was this true. The Levites had to work for their living as anyone else. Only when Levites attended the service of the Tabernacle (whether on a full-time or part-time basis) was the tithe expected to support them (Deuteronomy 18:6-8). What's more, God was quite concerned that the Levitical lands remain within the tribe of Levi perpetually: "But the fields of the open land about their cities may not be sold; for that is their perpetual possession" (Leviticus 25:34). Though the Levites were scattered throughout the land of Israel, there was only one place in the land where they could assist in the service of the Tabernacle (and later, the Temple). When Israel got he possession of the Land of Canann, they set up the Tabernacle first at Shiloh and later in the time of Solomon it was finally moved to Jerusalem where the portable structure was abandoned for the permanent Temple. But the greatest percent of the Levites did NOT perform services in the Temple. That building was simply too small for all of them to work there. Most Levites performed duties in other employments within the nation of Israel. The occupations of the Levites were in what we call professional fields today. Moses expected this to be the case. They were ordained to be teachers, judges, medical personnel, singers and musicians, and even law enforcement (I Chronicles 23:4--they were the "sheriffs" (Moffatt). Wow, what complexity the tithing codes were! No wonder a new covenant was promised (Jeremiah 31:31-32). Indeed, stewardship under the new covenant of Jesus is a vast improvement in tons of ways. Tithing inevitably leads to legalism. There never was such a thing as a MONETARY tithe(the exception of converting grain into money, by adding a fifth part, was based solely on the tithe of grain). Due to distance and transportation problems, at harvest time, this conversion was allowed occasionally. We are to be generous and cheerful givers as the Lord has blessed us. Thank God we are under a far better covenant than the Israelites were subject to. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Graceambassador |
Excellent post Dennis. It is copied and pasted in my "hall of fame" of internet wisdom. Thanks according to Ruth 2:12! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Doug222 |
Dennis, Great information. I am questioning the tithe, among many other issues right now. It appears the only mention of tithes, outside of the Old Covenant, was the tithe that Abraham offered to Melchizedek. Should this be construed as a directive for Christians today? No matter, which way you answer, I do not see how the church can make the returning of tithe (separate from the offering) a condition of holding office. There is no biblical support for mandating this manmade system. One definitely has to question an organization that would chastise a member for returning a tenth (or more), but not returning it in the manner that the organization believes it should be returned. Sounds like a teaching for doctrine the commandment of men to me. Doug | ||
| Violet |
Doug, What was so frustrating about the return the tithe to the conference or not be an officer, was that we were a brand new congregation. In the highest rent district in town, trying to put together seminars, purchase furnishings ect to just get started. I sounded the horn that if the conference forwent the tithe for a couple of years to let the church get established then they would probably reap a bigger benefit than if they sucked it dry from the start. I would love to see what would happen if the local church received the tithe then gave 10% of that to the conference and took the 90% and used it for local evangalism. I bet the conference would over 5 years have more coming in than when they started. I don't know I am just glad that I am out of that mess right now and can focus on more important things like telling others about the Grace of Jesus. | ||
| Doug222 |
Violet,I agree 100% with your statement. Several years back, the conference where I lived even boasted of being totally debt free, while the church to which I belonged struggled just to meet its monthly obligations. Granted, some of the problem resulted from less than wise financial decisions on the part of the church, but the principle remains unchanged. I was studying earlier this week on stewardship. After reading the parable of the talents, the thought dawned on me that God wil require an accounting "from me" for what "I" have done with all the resources (time, talents, gifts, the gospel message, money, etc.) he has left in my trust. Despite what the church may teach (about members not being accountable for how the funds are used--our duty to God simply being the faithful returning of the tithe), I can't help but believe that God expects us to use what he has entrusted for the furtherance of the work of the gospel. In that sense, we are to make concious and intelligent decisions about "where" we invest His goods. If I knowlng place it in an organization that is more interested in building edifices and maintaining its infrastructure than it is in spreading the unadulterated gospel, then I am guilty of burying my talent in the ground. Not only is that an affront to the Master, but it is a travesty that I will not have the privilege of being part of someone hearing the truly amazing message of salvation by grace and grace alone. Instead, I will contribute to the placing of a yoke on people that they cannot possibly bear. I'm so glad that God, unlike the organization that we are all familiar with is a God of freewill. He asks that we give all that we have (which goes beyond money) as we have purposed in our heart and not of compulsion. Growing in His Grace Doug | ||
| Dennis |
The rendering of tithes of property was common all over the Ancient Near East. God simply used a system that His people would be familiar with, and utilize in their culture and economy. It might seem that the tithe was an obligatory tribute, as is actually stated in Deuteronomy 14:22. However, the tithe was also a vow or voluntary gift. Thus Jacob's tithe in Genesis 28 is clearly linked to a vow, and by the same token Abraham gives tithes to Melchizedek of his own free will(Genesis 14:19-20) Amos also mentions the tithe within the framework of voluntary offerings (Amos 4:4-5), while the law of tithe in Leviticus 27:32-33 occurs in a chapter dealing with sacred free gifts of various kinds (the firstlings there, verses 26-27, are an exception to the rule: these cannot be dedicated since they are holy by virtue of their birth as firstlings. Tithing went through different changes and rules as God, culture, and the economy dictated. During the intertestamental period, the tithing codes even added the most unimportant crops such as thyme, dill, cummin, mustard, pepper, caper, and mint to be meticulously calculated. Jesus mentioned these practices in Matthew 23:23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin..." Obviously, Jesus was not impressed with their legalism. Christ taught the radical concept of common ownership for His followers to enable the gospel to become the central focus in their lives. The early Christians trusted each other with their pooled resources. Materialism was not their bondage; Christ was their all-sufficient Savior. The Lord abundantly blessed their love for the gospel. Earthly goods could not separate them from their Redeemer. Christianity was spreading like wildfire. It took almost three centuries before the reintroduction of tithing was advocated by the early church fathers. The Emperor Constantine the Great(Adventism's favorite Emperor), in appreciation for his baptism and cure of leprosy at the hands of Sylvester, Bishop of Rome, A. D. 314-336, developed ecclessiatical and civil laws, which required support for the church. Furthermore, he gave the church vast properties in Judea, Greece, Asia, Africa, and other places. The Apocrypha was especially influential in upholding tithing and almsgiving as having healing and saving power. "For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin." (Tobit 12:9) Belief in the redeeming power of almsgiving was so strong that the word "righteousness" became synonymous with "almsgiving." John Selden, in his monumental work THE HISTORIE OF TITHES in 1618, correctly contends that any mathematical percentage was not in keeping with the free and liberal spirit of the early Christians. With compulsory tithing back in the church, legalism took a giant leap forward. The old adage that "history repeats itself" was never more accurate than in this matter. The reformer Zwingli made a strong attack on the ecclessiastical system of tithing. He declared the tithes to be merely voluntary offerings. Soon after the Reformation, there were peasant revolts known as "tithe wars" against compulsory tithing. In the United States, in 1876, Thomas Kate began a movement which was actually organized as The Layman Company dedicated to encourage tithing in America. This modern tithing movement has grown tremendously ever since, until today we witness the phenomenon of whole denominations, such as the Mormons and Adventists, building their spiritual life around the practice of tithing. Mormons, however, have the most successful tithing statistics in America. They claim their members currently pay 7.5 per cent of their incomes in tithe. Early SDA pioneers believed, like Zwingli, that the tithing laws and codes are not binding on Christians. Don't expect to read this in the next issue of the ADVENTIST REVIEW. Recent articles have given the reader the impression that Adventists have always believed in tithing as we know it today(i.e., the "systematic benevolence plan" was used from 1859 to the late 1870s). Dudley Canright, Adventism's most notable heretic, is credited with introducing tithing to Adventism in 1876. Apparently, the young Adventist church of the 1870s, felt insecure and underfunded without a strict tithing doctrine. With a tithing mandate, members would presumably feel compeled to turn over their hard-earned money. More importantly, if the members felt that their salvation was at stake, they would be in full compliance. Most exciting of all, Ellen White stated that if you don't pay tithe, God may strike your favorite horse or cow dead. (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 661) Dennis J. Fischer PS: I will comment on the historical context of Malachi 3 within this week. | ||
| Violet |
Dennis, How do you find all of this information? Are you a pastor or what? Violet | ||
| Dennis |
Violet, These posts on tithing are excerpts from a forthcoming book that I am writing on the fiscal directives in Adventism(I have not even chosen the name of the book yet). I have done research on this topic for several years; I enjoy the challenge of researching complex Biblical concepts. I do not usually write lengthy posts. Yes, I am a former Adventist minister. Watch for my story that will be posted next week sometime. I will make one additional post on this topic within this week. I trust this information will be useful to you. In His amazing grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Violet |
Dennis, I love the indepth posts. The information I read here has a unique property. No one but a former Adventist can truly relate to a former Adventist when they first come out or are thinking about coming out. I was so programmed to not listen to anyone else, but Adventist, that if these topics were not brought up here I would never consider them as issues and would not be fully educated. Keep up the good work, you are touching lives you would never dream of. The Holy Spirit is using you. Violet | ||
| Colleentinker |
Great background information, Dennis! I just want to say that, yes, your story will be posted. We had a major computer crash, though--the computer we use to do web editing AND that houses my electronic gradebook and lesson plans--just up and died the day before Easter as Richard was attempting to update the site for Easter morning. It's reparable, but he hasn't had time to completely finish the fix. Richard had planned to have your story up on Easter, but it will be later now. I'm so sorry! Colleen | ||
| Dennis |
Christian stewardship is not to be thought of as a means of manipulating people to give more liberally. We hit a raw nerve, when it touches our pocketbooks. Adventists experience deep disappointment and anger, on finding that some of the beliefs they had based their lives on, do not stand up to their investigation. This is never more true than when it comes to the fiscal directives in Adventism. If you think you are tithing, think again! It is Biblically impossible to be a tither without the Levitical system in place. Wisely, our Jewish friends do not tithe today. Having a two-tier membership system based on tithing(i.e., local church office-holding ONLY when a member tithes), both the GC Working Policy and the SDA Church Manual, require absolute tithing compliance; to hold or to retain any position whether salaried or unsalaried. Due to possible legal entanglements, insiders will admit that education and medical personnel are generally exempt unofficially. Ministers, however, are audited as often as the Conference auditor gets around to auditing the local church books where the worker's church membership is held. Once a worker(employee) is found in less than full compliance, and to maintain one's salaried position, a back tithe payment is often required by Conference officials. Sometimes an installment arrangement, for back tithe, is allowed to repay money supposedly stolen from God. For obvious reasons, this rule is not imposed on new converts despite their "thievery" for many years. They are only concerned that the new convert BEGINS to tithe; not nagging or confronting him or her about their former robberies. As usual, legalism is both inconsistent and judgmental. As most of us are aware, some ministers have wanted to use the Old Testament tithing doctrine to support their fund raising enterprises. But the teaching of the New Testament does not revolve around the service of the Levites in the Temple. This has posed a problem in adopting the Old Testament tithe. The New Testament shows a different set of legal precepts for financing Christian activities. True enough, when Christ was on earth he told his disciples that tithing was a doctrine still in force (even on the meagerest of substances), but this was before the "ekklesia" or Christian church was established. Regarding Matthew 23:23, Christ was not talking to members of the Christian ekklesia. He was speaking to the Pharaisical leaders of the Jews. And why not? The Pharisees were still within the Old Covenant system when Christ made his remarks. Remember, while Christ was alive the Temple was still standing. The Levites and Priests were still performing their ordained functions and were then the legal recipients of the tithe. The New Covenant had not been introduced. Being under the Old Covenant administration at the time, it was only natural that Christ would tell the Pharisees to obey the law of tithing that Moses ordained. Indeed, before Jesus was crucified he even informed his disciples to offer animal sacrifices (Luke 5:14); to pay the annual half-shekel for the upkeep of the Temple (Matthew 17:24-27): and even to recognize the Scribes and Pharisees as sitting in Moses" seat and to do as they commanded (Matthew 23:2,3). Some have assumed, however, that Jesus must have instructed those in the new Christian society to continue the use of tithing. This is not true. This would have been breaking the law of God's covenant with Israel. The disciples were not Levites. They did not do service in the Temple. The Christian ekklesia was not governed by the physical rituals associated with the Temple services at Jerusalem. Even Christ did not use tithe money for any expenses he incurred while He was on earth. Jesus and His disciples were supported by private funds from those who believed in His mission. Jesus was not a Levitical Priest and he could not legally receive tithe. The Book of Hebrews makes a major point of this. "It is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Hebrews 7:14). Christ had to use personal monies for His work--not tithe. The work was done on faith, supported by the free will contributions of God's people. The early Christian church refused to be tied down by mere percentages in their giving. They pooled their material resources in Christian love and trust, some even giving everything they had for the gospel. All support was now reckoned to be free will. "Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver"(2 Cor. 9:7 NASB). In my concluding thoughts on this topic, I would like to briefly comment on the historical context of Malachi 3. The background of Malachi's message, after the Temple was rebuilt, included severe drought,famine, blighted crops, and spiritual lethargy. It was, indeed, a time of national crises. Everyone needed to do their faithful part to solve the problems at hand. Usually not ALL the tithe was needed at a centralized location, but now the call went out to "bring the WHOLE tithe into the storehouse..."(Malachi 3:10 NASB). Even more significantly, many were not returning an honest tithe. With many not doing their part, it dramatically accelerated the national crises. There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament, or early Church History, to show that the Christian church used the tithing system of the Old Testament to finance its operations. After all, they were sensible enough to know that it would have been illegal for them to have done so. The early Christian authorities knew that they were not Levites. In Christian stewardship, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Rev. Dennis J. Fisher: You truthfully and wisely write: There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament, or early Church History, to show that the Christian church used the tithing system of the Old Testament to finance its operations. After all, they were sensible enough to know that it would have been illegal for them to have done so. The early Christian authorities knew that they were not Levites. Certainly the clearest evidence of the above is that Paul, the Apostle of Grace, when teaching about Grace, in virtually every single one of his writings, quotes the "shadow" or the Old Testament principle, to demonstrate the manifested and REVEALED SUBSTANCE which we know as GRACE. HOWEVER, when it comes to contributions, rather than teaching the OLD SYSTEM OF TITHING, he does not even uses as an example the "legal giving" from the old system, and simply ESTABLISHES the "novel" principle: 2nd Cor 9: EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HE PROPOSED IN HIS HEART.... Quite different from the "levitical" system. also Paul states that: ...the experiment of this ministration, they glorify God for your PROFESSED SUBJECTION UNTO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST... again distinguishing the teaching about giving from SUBJECTION TO THE LAW into the new SUBJECTION TO THE GOSPEL, which is free! Perhaps I deserve the title of "dispensationalist", but if this is not SUPRESSION OF JUDAISM, along with the JUDEO FORM OF TITHING, then we have to admit that Paul was a rebel and an incovenience, as many denominations, including SDA's and many of my charismatic brethren "silently but surely" consider Paul to be! Thanks, for your efforts. It is gratifying to come to this forum and be able to find great reasoning and material worth keeping! In His Grace Grace Ambassador | ||
| Doug222 |
Dennis, This is a fascinating study. Since Jesus was a High Priest after the order of Melchezedic (sp) and not after the Levites, why did Abraham present him (Melchezeduc)a tithe? Also, would you consider tithing to be similar to eating food offered to idols? In other words, if a person's not tithing creates a stumbling block to a weaker brother or sister, should the stronger brother or sister go ahead and tithe? Doug | ||
| Sherry2 |
Good question, Doug. I was wondering that as well about Abraham presenting a tithe. And also Gen. 28, there was presented a tithe as well...this is all "pre-law". And certainly Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees in their tithing mint and cummin, but said they neglected the weightier matters of the law (justice, mercy and faith) and should have done those, and not lacked in what they were doing tithe wise. Yes, it should never be done legalistically. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. And yet to cast something of a horrible view of anyone who preaches tithing, as though it was slavery is not correct either. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Money is amoral. What you do with your money is moral. What you do with your money tells about the priorities you have. You can tithe and go to hell, you can not tithe and go to heaven. The condition exists on if you do things out of love or not...bottom line. |
