| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I'm sure all of you formers all know full well about the SDA nonsense that the Catholics are going to chase down and kill Adventists just before the Second Advent. (Makes me laugh every time.) I've read a good deal of material passed on by my mother-in-law about why the catholic church is evil and SDA is the truth blah blah blah. I'm curious though, how do the Catholics feel about this? I did come upon one website that just defended Catholic beliefs without addressing SDA accusations. I wonder how many Catholics have even HEARD of a Seventh-day Adventist. Most Protestants I know havent and those who have know theyre false. Why aren't the Protestants going to be after them too? Arent they the "daughters of Babylon"?? Is there anyone that could shed some light on this; or maybe if theres a former in the forum who ironically became a Catholic after coming out of SDA? Joel | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
There actually is a former who became a Catholic and has a website...it was a long time ago I was there, but I'll see if I can dig it up....Have you read the "Great Controversy"? I think if you read this heresy of a book, last 8 chapters, it will explain thoroughly all those questions you asked. It's an EGW book of course. Ugh! But it will give you a good understanding of SDA teaching...but ofcourse they get it all from the Bible...  lol...but I was there..... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Richard found a Catholic website about three years ago (unfortunately he can't remember what it was now!) that discussed the Catholic view of different denominations. He showed it to me, and I saw their explanations of different doctrines. This site said that the Catholics' main disagreement with Adventists was that they perceived Catholics as the enemy. Ironically, they had little disagreement with their doctrine of salvation and even said they recognized Adventist baptism as valid baptism. (Catholics, you know, see baptism as signifying membership in The Church and an assurance of salvation.) One of their main reasons for acknowledging SDA baptism is that Adventists believe people need to belong to the church. They see salvation as coming through the church, not just the individual. Interestingly, this same website waid that the branch of churches Catholics most heartily oppose is evangelical Christianity. The reason they oppose it is evangelicals teach salavation is individual. Each person stands before God as an individual and personally receives salvation. Evangelicals do not teach church membership is requisite for salvation. Salvation is not by group, it is individual. To a Catholic, that teaching is heresy because it reduces the importance and power of the organized church. Interesting. Praise God for salvation! Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I think the Catholics and Adventists are alot more alike than the Adventists want to admit. the one thing that I like so much about the Christian church is they don't care where you go to church just serve Jesus. I was goofing the other day and ended up on an SDA chat group. Part of the agreement was that in order to post you must send a donation!! Greed strikes again. Where is their faith that God will supply their needs? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, very interesting, Colleen! This is a bit facetious, but, Violet, can you spell ìPapal dispensation?î Martin Luther would give you a knowing wink. Strangely enough, I have been noticing areas of convergence between the Seventh-day Adventist church and the Roman Catholic Church. There are obvious differences and strong disagreements. I would never suggest that there would ever be a possibility of the two merging. In addition to the ìthrough the churchî thing, think about these: 1. Both have extra-biblical writings required for doctrinal issues. 2. Both have post-apostolic ìsaintsî or ìprophetsî with higher spiritual endowment. 3. Both have a very concentrated centralized financial and doctrinal control. 4. Both insist on Faith plus Works. 5. Purgatory and Investigative Judgement have some interesting similarities. 6. One of Seventh-day Adventismís most respected Sabbath scholars, Bacchiocchi, studied at the papal college. Perhaps some of the above are not significant, but they caught my eye. Feel free to correct or add to the list. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
7. Both had/have a ìpope,î the final earthly doctrinal authority who mediated/mediates between the membership and God. One dead, the other looks almost dead. Both relied/rely on assistants to ìresearchî and ìcompileî doctrinal declarations. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jerry, I would definitely suggest that Adventists and Catholics might mergeÖnot officially, of course, but in purpose and cooperation. In fact, after covering the Folkenberg debacle for Adventist Today three years ago, I know the Adventists and the Catholics have cooperated in fund raising, splitting profits between the two. The mental picture that emerged as I talked to people involved either directly in Folkenberg's business deals or indirectly is of two organizations publicly keeping up a facade of being enemeis for the sake of better extracting financial support from the members while unseen to the common members, the two join hands behind their backs in signficant ways. Consider also that not only did Bacchiocchi study at the Vatican, the current GC president, Jan Paulsen, earned his doctorate at the University of Tubingen, a well-known liberal seminary in Germany, with Jesuit professors. (Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not suggesting we have to watch for hidden Jesuits! I just find it all quite ironic in light of the paranoia among conservative SDA'sÖ!) Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I understand, Colleen. I realize that some of my comparisons are a bit of a stretch. Your comment about Paulsen places an interesting light on an isolated phrase in his ìTheology Landscapeî speech: ì. . . while a believer can be saved as a Catholic . . .î Of course, when taken in context, this phrase is in support of the requirement to be a Seventh-day Adventist in order to be saved. Nevertheless, who would EVER imagine that EGW would approve of that part of the sentence. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I'm in the very difficult process of witnessing to two different Catholics. One, my neighbor, who is very unhappy with her church and doesn't know much about what they believe but goes a few Sundays a month to mass. The other, a devout Catholic who believes EVERYTHING the church teaches but really likes to debate about it. (Which shows me there is some doubt there too) I have prayed and prayed for this individual and I feel he is truly seeking God but really "working" hard, convinced this is the only "true" church. It's exhausting but I am praising God for the opportunity and praying for wisdom. Bacchiochi's latest newsletter is really odd. He is really pondering the Islaamic faith and wondering if they are the Anti-christ. To keep his SDA roots he is trying to see how the two faiths are going to work together so Ellen can be half right. There is lots of documentation of the Pope trying to include the Muslims in worship services and unite with them in Mecca worship. He is asking for responses and I feel he is really bothered in his spirit about this whole issue. If anyone feels they could input some thoughts, please write him. If you need the letter, e-mail me, it is REALLY long. I'm praying about my response. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well that could make a lot of sense....considering what Jerusalem and the temple mount have to do with end times...very interesting.... | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra, this website should have some info to help you out in talking with your neighbors. http://www.excatholicsforchrist.org | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
The Bible tells Christian over and over again to look for Christ!!! To watch for HIS coming!! Yet as an Adventist I wa taught to look for the very opposite--my eyes were always searching the horizon for the bad guys--always looking for the anti-christ! | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well now that is an excellent point, Lori. And I concede that is the most important thing by far. I also know though on the other hand Revelation, some texts in Matt. and Thesselonians give us warnings about what will happen before, and sometimes those mysteries are good to pursue IF in a healthy fashion, and not for a persecution complex.... We didn't ever have that, did we? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
The difference is; as Adventists we looked to those things with fear and horror and as Christians we look to them excitedly! | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Lydell, I did look up the site and it is helpful. I'm not sure though, how much I want to learn of that religion. Sort of like the people studying Islaam--too much in my head !! ha | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Lydell, I went to the web site. It states, under their beliefs, that the wicked dead go to Shoel. do you know what they are talking about? Like I said earlier, this dead thing has me in a quandry. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Wow, Violet! If I understand the word and theology correctly, you may have stumbled on a strikingly appropriate concept for this topic! I am a weak on Catholic theology, but I think I have heard of this concept. Sheol is the Hebrew word that one can interpret to various degrees as ìthe graveî or ìhell.î In any case, whatever it is, it is not ìwith God.î Anyone correct me if I am confused, but I believe that, according to Catholic theology, when you die, you never go directly to heaven. First, you go to hell or the grave, then you might stay there, or go to purgatory, or on to heaven. As I said, I could be mistaken. However, if I am fairly close to correct, does that not sound a little like ìsoul sleepî and/or ìinvestigative judgement?î | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Well, from my understanding with Mr. Devout, they believe in several levels of heaven and you get to whichever level by your deed and work your way up, however, if you're real bad you can be prayed out of purgatory or bought out by people on earth. The weirdest thing I've come across is they believe communion is the physical body and blood of Christ. When I asked if He ended up in the toilet they explained that He is absorbed into your body. I'm telling you, this could make witnessing to Adventists easy. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Yeah, I know Sabra, you can overload on stuff! what I really had in mind in suggesting the site is that one of the articles there has to do with a method the writer found that helps the Catholic to see graphically that they are relying on works, not on Jesus for salvation. That article is "The Catholic Way of Salvation". Another good one is "Do You Know Mary". It lists out some the names/attributes attributed to Mary in the rosery. yow! Blessings on your efforts! | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Does anyone here know anyting about Jan Marcussen's "ministry" out of Illinois? My historic SDA Mother sent me several of his newsletters, and there is some very disturbing and apparently documented stuff about Christian Coalition pushing for legislation of a "National day of rest", Catholic church pushing for "unity" of faith in a decree of basic beliefs, as well as lots of information about how all the modern translations of the Bible were written by Jesuit monks, Spiritists, drunks, etc. and that we should (must) only use KJV There are also many references to an upcoming "40 million man march" this is the first I've heard of that. I've learned not to react too quickly to new information, but to let the Spirit lead me in all things. And to get wise counsel... Anyone familiar with this guy? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Just search by: ìJan Marcussenî Adventist On GOOGLE, he is all over the place. What a sick joke! This guy completely misses the point! He has a ì$50,000 challengeî for anyone who can provide a Bible verse changing Sabbath to Sunday. We all know that is an irrelevant issue to the Gospel message. As for these so-called ìdocumented proofs,î give me a break! No doubt, he or one of his allies created or severely modified the ìproof.î They are probably just as valid as the ìdocumentationî about the Loch Ness Monster, the alien autopsy at Roswell, New Mexico, or the hundred pound baby with two heads. These are all the old Adventist ìmonsters under the bedî repackaged, and reissued. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
You saw a $50,000 offer, I saw a $1 million dollar offer for that....also linked with Jan and his book "National Sunday Law".... Today I went to walk at a nature center I haven't been to since my break wtih Adventism. It was a high spot to go on sabbath afternoons. I felt really sad there today. Lots of good memories walking with friends...and as I look back, although missing companionship and the security of people you know and grew up around, I know I could not sit there in that church again and listen to lies, and ellenisms in everything, and hearing every religion cut down and having "the truth" again. I looked back with fondness on memories, and at the same time pained from seperation and the knowing that I could never be at home there again in that church. Yet so hating that fact at the same time. I think that is something I really hate about not just setting a whole day aside is the fact that it gave time for a whole body of Christians to get to know each other more closely. So many churches I've been to are so busy in life that church knowing each other is hard work. I appreciated that about setting aside the whole day for everyone in the congregation to spend time together and know each other. Now that I've said that, don't think I'm going back to "Sabbath-keeping" in that form...that isn't it at all. I'm just really sick and tired of this whole damn fight with SDAism. I get an accidental e-mail sent to me from one SDA to another about the Paulsen quote I sent out, I go to swim class for my kids and run into an SDA there who I went to high school with....I'm just sick and tired of it...and frankly wanting to move to where nobody is and get away fro the whole stinking mess of society, the perversions either through Christianity, or perversions of people totally living without Christianity. How's that for venting! Sorry... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sherry, your feelings are completely understandable. I remember how I felt last winter when we attended a funeral at the University Church for a dentist Richard used to do work for. (The great irony was that he wasn't even an Adventistóhe was a Christianóbut his family gave him an Adventist funeral!) It was the first time in over three years I had been in that building, surrounded by all those people I recognized, and I was overwhelmed by great emotion, predominantly depression and heaviness. May people pretended they didn't see us, and I was SO uncomfortable. I was so struck by the shallowness of the message, the superficial veneer of politeness, the brittleness of the people, and the feeling of being in a house of death as opposed to a house of life. There is much about the practice of Sabbath that was just plain socially satisfying! You know what has developed for us? We never set out to create this reality, but it has developed over the months. We use Sunday to have people over to dinner. In fact, we have a lot more people over than we used to as Adventists. We often have people who are struggling with Adventism; we often have students, Adventist or not. One particularly memorable Sunday we had our elder son's mentor, a retired Mission Aviation Fellowship pilot, and his wife as guests. We listened to the most amazing stories of their experiences in Inodnesia and here in the States, and we felt that God had strengthened us all, not just our son, by these wonderful, mature Christians being in our lives. We no longer structure our "guest lists" to include well-placed people we want to get to know, but we do ask God to show us who should come and to place people in our lives that he wants us to interact with. Our Sundays have become rich and times of spriitual blessing in ways Sabbath dinner never was. In the past two years we have met more people who have become significant parts of our lives than we ever met in Adventism. Sherry, I'll pray for your struggle with all this bombardment of SDAism. I know how you feel; I used to feel exactly the sameóI'd just like to go where I don't have to explain myself! Just remember that Jesus is already in the future, and wherever you find yourself, or whatever piece of propoganda grabs your attention, he is there, and he is with you, and he will hold you heart and mind in perfect peace as you focus on him and not on the relentless assault of Adventism. He can even redeem those uncomfortable times and use them to plant seeds for the gospel about which you may never know. I have started praying that God would make streams of living water flow from me even when I don't know it's happening. God will glorify himself through these assualts upon your emotions and your time. And by the way, Jan Marcusson, in my limited knowledge of him, is a sensationalist and is not a journalist whose publications can be seen as reporting reality as it really is. With prayers for us all, Colleen |
