| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Eek! Yes, of course, Doug. I just had time to look at 1 Corinthians where Paul talks about preaching the Gospel. Hebrews is one of my favorite books. It makes so very clear the relationship between the old and new Covenants. Chapter 4 is one of the most striking explanation of what the Sabbath became in the new Covenant. How sad that Adventists cannot see the greater call to rest even though it is so vividly presented in this passage. Lori, I am especially amazed at how out of context they use Mark 2:27. To understand the true meaning here does not even require the "three chapter" rule (though that is always a good idea.) First, read the REST OF THE SENTENCE. Then read a few verses before. No doubt, that would not register with most Adventists. I am reminded of 2 Corinthians 3:12-18. I think that explains very well what we see in terms of misreading the Bible. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Okay, here is one. It is absurd to conclude that this text from Revelation 10 has anything whatsoever to do with the Great Disappointment or Adventism as God's remnant church: But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." 8Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: "Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." 9So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey." 10I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings." It is paricularly absurd since it would suggest that God intentionally deceived the early pioneers and contradicted Jesus' own words in order to fulfill it. EGW even said that God held his hand over a mistake in Miller's chart, causing him to erroneously calculate the date of "Christ's return" as a test of whether the people would stand for or against "the truth." Wasn't it Jesus who, in Matthew 24, said: "23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time." Yet I can't count the number of evangelistic crusades where they used this verse as authenication of the Millerite movement and the subsequent birth of the Advent message of judgement. Absurd!!! In His Grace Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Ooo! Ooo! <raises hand, excitedly> I've got one! A Seventh-day Adventist pastor told me on May 14 (a week or so after Paulsen's "Theology Landscape" speech): "I've always been so proud of the fact that we are church with no creed, unlike other denominations." Then, get this: <giggles> Regarding the Glacier View Manuscript by Ford, he flatly stated that all theology departments are teaching Ford's view. That is, they no longer believe in "Investigative Judgement" and "Sanctuary" doctrines. Then he said: "This church has always been willing to change whenever new light is discovered." He qualified that by saying that "proper procedure" should be followed so that, "More sensitive members aren't upset." Either he had not yet read the speech, or he was lying through his teeth. I felt like I would double over laughing, but fortunately I was able to maintain my composure. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Correction. He said "no creed but the Bible" | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
My husband's favorite is the question they always ask "so, when did you come to 'the truth'" Of course they are referring to the sabbath, NOT a salvation experience. And then there's the time that we went to an SDA service at Yellowstone National Park. You have to get the picture now, there were SDA's attending from all over the country. The speaker asked the question at the beginning "so what would you say is God's present truth for our world today?" One lady's immediate response was "the health message!" Many heads nodded in agreement. You heard other equally stupid comments. Finally one lady could contain herself no longer and burst out, "the health message?! You have GOT to be kidding! I live in Miami. People in my neighborhood live in fear of the drug addicts walking the streets. These people want HOPE...they need to hear the message that God loves them and has a plan for their lives." | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Good one! Gee . . . I wonder, what ever happened to "Miami Lady" after that? Not exactly a "team player." Hmm? I hope she figured out the "Everlasting Truth." | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
About two months a man (well known in the adventist community) was telling of the passing of his wife. She was 87 years old, He is cir. 93. Their life's work was promoting the uh, uh, the "health and education message" of EGW. They were homeschool champions especially in the non adventist community. They adhered faithfully to a strict vegan diet. They advocated the eight laws of health. Often, they referenced their good health and longevity as examples and proof that EGW was a true prophet and the adventist message is the "Truth". In conversation with him I asked the cause of his wife's death. He said she had a weak heart after several small heart attacks and has a massive one in February. "BUT" he promptly added, lest I got the wrong idea, "She was in VERY, VERY good and perfect health." Lest I mention something absurd and contrary about the state of the dead, he continued, "She is asleep now, she is asleep in the GRAVE." His work now, is to protect me from the deception of the Sunday christians. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
This is like shooting ducks at the state fair. Check out this dialogue that I picked up on another forum. My use of the titles Christian vs. Adventist is intentional (for reasons that should be obvious) Christian: "Do you not think that believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is enough to save?" Adventist: "The belief itself is not enough to save if that belief doesn't result in a change. Jesus came to bring back into harmony with God's form of government those who are in rebellion to it. Since there is no change in God's law, there must be change in the rebel's character. No change, no salvation." How much harmony is needed to saved? Absurd indeed!!!!! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yep. HUGE stationary ducks at a range of one foot. It just amazes me to think that Adventists CANNOT read Hebrews 7:11,12 and understand exactly what it is saying. 11. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW. Yeah, yeah, I know: Ceremonial versus Moral, Manís law versus Godís law. (No such things existed in the Covenant made at Sinai. No verses can be found to support the distinction.) | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Bmorgan, that is sad indeed! Would the man's initials be RM? I ask because we homeschooled for 16 years. RM wrote several books that were very encouraging to me when we started homeschooling. I went to a conference where he was a speaker over 20 years ago. His advice there was excellent, and loving. I had noticed, however, a change in the things he wrote over like the last 10 years or so. He was publishing increasingly legalistic stuff, especially regarding the "health message", and I could pick out numerous egwhiteisms in the stuff he was publishing. Too sad. I've said it before, but what a huge difference there is between thinking that in a moment I will step into the arms of Jesus vs. in a moment I'll lie down in a grave! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lydell, your comment about "in a moment I'll be dead" vs. "In a moment I'll be in the arms of Jesus" is powerful to me. I cannot stop thingking what a difference KNOWING we'll be with the Lord made for me when my father died last October. There is no doubt he is with Jesus. I just praise him! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Excuse my ignorance. This is a subject that I admittedly have not done a great deal of study on since my liberation. Why is is so significant whether a person lies in the grave until Jesus returns or is immediately transported into the presence of God? Myabe I still have my Adventist glasses on. Thanks. Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I will defer to more educated members, but this is my understanding after several articles: I believe it becomes significant as a supporting doctrine with respect to "perfection" of one's soul. The implication is that life after death is conditional and that supports the view that Christ did not complete atonement at the Cross. I am not clear how that truly aids "Investigative Judgement" since it is very un-scriptural and based on some poorly analyzed texts. Besides, how much "perfecting" can one do in the grave if you are "asleep?" Perhaps it is just to allow the "Investigative Judgement" to finish at the Second Advent. In any case, I believe that it is critical to understand that the Gospel declares that Christ completed ALL the work of atonement at the Cross. Therefore, we can be with Him immediately. "Soul Sleep" or conditionalism says, you absolutely cannot until the Second Advent. Please, anyone correct whatever I may have stated incorrectly. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Good point Jerry, it does speak to the idea that Christ has already completed all. Doug, I think it is also a matter of accepting what Christ has said as truth: that He will never leave you nor forsake you. To say that death can separate us from Him is really to call God a liar on this point. We see in the scriptures over and over that one who has accepted Christ already HAS eternal life. You have already moved that moment from having a dead spirit to having a living spirit. (John 5:24 for instance). Romans 8:10 tells us that our spirit is alive, even if the body is dead. John 8:51 tells us that if we keep his word, we will never see death. Look at all of the bread of life discourse in John 6. In Matt. 22 we are told that He is the God of the living, not the dead. And He is referring to Abrahan, Isaac, and Jacob. I see more passages on this all the time. For instance, remember as SDA dismissing offhandedly Phil. 1:21-24? Go back and take a new look at it in context. Paul is clearly indicating that he sees only 2 states, alive and working for the Lord or dead and with Him, nothing in between. The implication of the SDA soul sleep doctrine is this: if your mind is incapable of communication (and therefore of always re-examining yourself to see if you are becoming perfect, I suppose) then you are cut off from God. But, there is something far different taught in the scriptures. Over the past several years I have been present when 2 Christians died. The first was my father, a man of tremendously strong faith. The second was a babe in Christ, an elderly woman who had reached the point weeks before of being unable to communicate with people. It seems the Lord was teaching me something in watching these two deaths. And if I don't explain this well, I hope those of you who understand what I am getting at will help me out here. I'm not entirely sure I can adequately put my thoughts into words just yet. If, when you are saved, your spirit comes to life, then the one who is lying on that hospital bed unable to verbally communicate with people, unable possibly of even thought, STILL can be in communion with God. The body is unable to be involved, the soul is unable to be involved, but the spirit is still alive. So when those around you are unable to communicate to you their love, God will STILL be able to speak to you and comfort you. Can you see that this would take the Christian life to a far different realm than that of the unsaved? It literally makes you a new creation. The favorite verse of one of my good friends is from the old testament, "precious in His sight is the death of one of his children." If, as per what I have said above, you are instantly with God in a more pure way at death than now (with the shell of your body standing between) that verse makes sense. But soul sleep, to me, just doesn't fit with that verse at all. And there is just a whole different aspect of relationship with Him that is opened up when we realize that we do have a separate spirit. By the way Doug, when you approach your study on the subject, the place to begin the study is the terms "body" "soul" and "spirit". In otherwords, begin with the direct words of Christ and the clear things spoken in the rest of the New Testament. The SDA's arrive at their conclusions because they begin with their supposed understanding of what the endtime prophecies say. Then they use that to interpret the rest. It's really absure. They begin with the cloudy unknowns. | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Lydell, you got it right. The Adventist spirit is so thick around him that he is irrational. He is very disappointed that I left the faith and is praying for my return. He warned me, and said "People like you can be, will be vicious/dangerous to the church. You are fulfilling prophecy just as Sister White said. Remember, no church has the truth like we (sda) do." He sent me a book he wrote which cites many of his success with the homeschool community. The book is loaded with EGW quotes. To him it is proof positive that EGW's Education and Health message makes her a true prophet and the SDA church God's Remnant people. I don't have sense enough to figure that out myself. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Great explanation, Lydell! And Bmorgan, I'm sorry for the pain of the comments you shared above. Doug, another reason soul sleep seems to me to be a serious heresy is that it denies we have an eternal spirit. We were taught as Adventists that when Adam and Eve sinned, they did die: their bodies at that moment began to die. We were not taught the truth: their spirits, which can't be their breaths, were disconnected from God. They did die; they died spiritually. What we inherited from Adam was spiritual deathówhich results in physical death. We are born with our spirits disconnected from God. (Eph. 2) If we don't believe we have spirits that are something other than our minds or bodies, then sin must be genetic. Sin is merely physical. We inherit tendencies to evil, as Ellen said. But sin is primarily spiritual. We are born spiritually dead. The Holy Spirit communicates with our spirits (Romans 8:16) that we are God's children. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 1 and 2) If our spirits were merely breath, as we were taught, that would mean that the Holy Spirit communicates with us somehow in our noses or lungs. Ridiculous! The Spirit returns to God who gave itóthat is not talking about the air in our nostrils, as we were taught. Humans have spiritsóthat's what truly makes them in the image of God and sets them apart from animals. Paul is really clear that at death God's people are immediately in his presence, not separated from his love by anything, including death. (Romans 8:38-39) Oh, by the way, Advenitsts had to have soul sleep in order to have an investigative judgment. How could God's people be with God if the judgment didn't begin until 1844? Praise Jesus for never leaving us! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
For me Doug, it was just a huge relief to know I'd be with Jesus when I died. As SDA I was simply terrified of death. Now, first off having assurance of salvation, and then knowing I'm with Him..now that is peaceful for me. I don't believe we're walking around, etc. Our physical bodies are going to be retrieved some day when he comes again...like 1 Thess. 4:14 says "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus." and in Revelation it talks of the souls talking to God beneath His throne wondering how long till the end. We were made of this earth, and we're not simply going to heaven to stay there. He's bringing us back, and making this earth new and bringing New Jerusalem from heaven to here! That's pretty wild. What I also realized was a) when Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus would not use a lie to teach a truth. And that if this is how He described what happened at death, there's truth there, and b) when I studied a text that is found in all three gospels about the resurrection and marriage, there was something surprising there I bypassed as SDA but to me now it seems clear...Matt. 22:23-33, Mark 12:18-27, Luke 20:27-40..after he explains there is no marriage in heaven and we shall be like the angels, he then states Mark states vs. 26-27...."But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."....I just thought that was a profound statement. Now I suppose it can be said, that since He was debating with Sadducees, He was really debating the resurrection period since they didn't believe there was one. I'd like to study it in the original language to understand it better though. Even though in truth, whether you believe in "soul sleep" or not, since there is no passage of time once dead, either way we would be with God now. But the SDA emphasis on we stay in the grave denies the joy of being in Christ's presence upon death, and instead focuses on death itself. If that makes sense? For me, it is a beautiful thing when people can have peace that there loved one in Christ is safely in His arm, then to just think of them dead in the ground. I used to scorn when people said such things. All I could think of was how wrong and deceived they were to say such a thing. All because we had a special doctrine to share...which is a dump truck load of ...well u know what.  Good grief! After I was truly baptized in Christ, I did start to stress that doctrine less and less, and began to think you know what? it doesn't matter...we die, we see Christ either way you believe. So I eased up and let go of needing to talk of put down other Christian's beliefs. The one thing we are told through EGW is that this doctrine protects us from the fallacy of the dead speaking to us, you see. But that's crap too. My husband's grandpa, a wonderful SDA man, had his dead brother come and talk to him...he doesn't know whether it was really his brother or not...he wonders. Now here he believes in soul sleep and yet he was still deceived by a demon impersonating his brother. Go figure. So what I began to stress is not the soul sleep doctrine, but the commands of not talking with the dead. So that's my pilgrimage. Hope it was helpful. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Thanks BMorgan. Too sad. Guess no one has ever done a study to find where she picked up her stuff on education. There was enough truth in what she said that she has to have plagiarized it from someone! I'd had a sneaking suspicion that he was probably tickled that this was validating EGW somehow. But then, there always seems to be some way of "validating" her. It's just always amazing that it always comes back to "no one has the truth like the SDA's. Gee, and how would those folks who have allowed him to hold conference in their churches feel about that one, I wonder? too sad... | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Pardon my play on words, but, in a perverse way, he is correct. No church has "the truth" like the SDAs do. Many churches have a significantly unique version of "the truth." It is not important how unique their "truth" is. It IS important how well it stays close to the Gospel. I do not say that to teach anything new to this group. I say it because I am truly convinced that at the root of Adventist beliefs is an emphasis on "uniqueness" and a disregard for or a distorted view of felicity and consistency with the Gospel. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I guess to continue on the soul sleep discussion (I wanted to get this in before I seemed out of place in the thread)... I was going over this last night in my Bible study. To claim soul sleep is true, one has to say that man does not have an eternal spirit. And if man does not have an eternal spirit, then he wasnt created in the image of God! And if he wasnt created in the image of God, then Moses was a liar! Somehow that doesnt sit well with me. Anyways, my question was along the lines of Enoch and Elijah. The Bible says concerning them both that they were caught up into heaven and didnt die a physical death. How do SDA's discredit that since there cant be anyone in heaven until the Second Advent? Joel |
