| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
What exactly is sanctification? I understand it to be the process a saved person goes through to become more like Christ. Separate and apart from salvation. I have a friend who is overweight, very overweight, she goes to the Nazarene church and they teach that a saved person will become sanctified over a period of time. She is worried that she can not stop eating and that this addiction to food is like an idol in her life and she is obviously harming the temple of God. She prays about it and has for a long time and feels that if she were truly saved she would have self-control and would be free from this addiction and bondage. There are several verses that say drunks wont get into heaven. How is their sin any worse than hers? Another says idolaters wont inherit the kingdom of God. Sorry I didn't look the verses up before posting. Guess my question is, Are all christians freed from addiction and why are some freed immediately while others suffer for years with bondage? What about drinking, smoking, eating? My sister has smoked for 25 years and prays to quit, wants to quit, has quit for short periods of time, but always goes back. She is saved, why isn't she free? While another person will say as soon as they asked Jesus into their life, they quit drugs, alcohol.... Seems some are winning the spiritual warfare battle while others are losing it. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
thanks for bringing up this subject sabra, i'm interested in other opinions about this too - i have friends who are saved and also have addictions, and have dealt with some of these things myself - one comment i do have is this: i've noticed for former sda's, as well as some other more "legalistic" type denominations (of which the Nazarene church may be - i have no idea, am not familiar with that denomination) this is more of an issue than others. i've noticed some Christians, for example in certain parts of the country; i.e., tobacco growing areas like Kentucky, don't seem to think anything of the smoking issue, or feel it in any way interferes with their Christianity, which has been hard to understand for me, knowing our bodies are God's temple. why are some convicted of these things and others are not? (i can relate to this topic, as i used to smoke, and am one of those who quit "cold turkey" when i gave my life to Christ in late 1992 - after trying to quit for years - and it was actually easy, truly a miracle for me, but i still long for a cigarette at times, and wish i could occasionally enjoy one without a guilty conscience, but i can't, i've tried and it doesn't work for me) anyway, getting sidetracked here, i'm interested in others' feelings about this too, have always wondered why for some it's easy and others so difficult - why some are convicted of certain things and others are not.....your thoughts??? love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I think the Lord works on us in due time. Like for me I have serveral  areas that need to be improved. He is working on me being tolerant of people's differences and not being so judgemental right now. (He has His work cut out for Him) The weight issue He will have to tackle later. What I am trying to say is I don't think it is your saved then poof your perfect. Maybe there are inward things He is working on in your friends life. Just my 2 cents Vi | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
I believe it is in Gods timing with each of us. I also believe that Sanctification is just as much a gift as Justification. Acts 26:18 ..."to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins(Justification) and an inheritance among those who ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH in Me." Heb. 10:10 "We have been Sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." If Sanctification means "set apart", thats what Jesus did for us. Then, as we walk the Christian walk, we, (with the help of the Holy Spirit), develop "fruit" that glorifies God, not that saves us, or makes us "safe to save" I dont believe "Sancitification is the work of a lifetime" anymore...We want to honor God, and bring glory to His Name. So, we live accordingly. I dont know if that makes sense, but I just tried to share a few of my thoughts. :-) God bless, Janet | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Im in agreement with Janet. I listen quite a bit to Bob George's radio program out of Dallas and have read his book "Classic Christianity" (a must-read by far!). He is very big on getting Christians to understand their identity in Christ and sanctification is one of them. If you have accepted Jesus then you are IN CHRIST; you are a Christian. As a Christian, you ARE ALREADY sanctified, set apart for God (1 Corinthians 1:2). As Christians, we arent trying to get sanctified, we are already. Where the confusion comes in is where some pastors want to place their congregations back under the law and say they have to be sanctified before they can appear before God (much like SDA's investigative judgment). We all know that while we are all these things in Christ from the moment of faith, on the outside we are anything but. We're Christians, but we dont look like it. So people try and try and try to become a perfect Christian. But just because we are a new creature doesnt mean that our fallen human nature is going to comply. In Christ, we've been given a perfect divine nature from Christ... Christ Himself living in us, making us set apart for God. Thats a done deal. I do believe however, that our outward appearance wont be sanctified until we see Jesus. We dont have to be perfect on the outside, we're ALREADY perfect on the inside through Jesus Christ and we are under no condemnation for sin. We're ALREADY forgiven of ALL sins through Jesus; no more asking God to forgive sins. Sabra, I think I can already see what you're alluding to in your question, and while I've never been in the grip of SDA, I understand your confusion. Investigative judgment teaches, as I understand it, perfectionism. They mask it by saying its the Christian's sanctification process. Under the Law, one had to be absolutely perfect and clean in order to approach God. You couldnt even go to the temple without a sacrifice. The priests had to offer sacrifices for themselves. Approaching God was a tedious deal under the Law. Ellen White would like for you to believe that at the end of time we have to approach God without a intercessor which is total blasphemy. In other words, we must reach a state of perfection before God. How is that done? According to EGW, is by keeping the 10 commandments, including the sabbath. But even Paul quoted the Law in Galatians when he said that cursed is everyone who doesn't keep EVERY point of the Law. All it takes is one little slip up, and you've broken the whole thing. You cant ask for forgiveness either, remember Christ is supposedly investigating us all (and you dont want to disturb Him). Sanctification is achieved by keeping all points of the Law perfectly, which is impossible for a man to do but was done by the God-man Jesus. THROUGH HIM we are sanctified, made perfect, made holy, made forgiven, made without blame, and have eternal life. SDA rejects all of that and says you must keep the Law and pass investigative judgment. You cant even say youre saved! Like I heard on a commercial on the Christian radio station i listen to: Jesus has done all the doing you'll ever have to do. So choose: Doing or done? I choose DONE!. Maybe give Bob George a listen if you get a chance and try to pick up some of his study material. They're excellent. www.realanswers.net Joel | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Think about the physical condition of a drunkard. Now being a drunkard is not the same as being drunk. A drunkard never achieves sobriety--when he begans to near it, it is painful so he drinks again. A drunkards thoughts are completely impaired. He does not have the system of thinking which can even understand "the message"--so he can't possible do as instructed. Consider the obese. Is their thinking actually impaired? NO! There is a difference. Another point: There is a key phrase in the text that you mentioned--it is the phrase "inherit the kingdom of God". Is this phrase "kingdom of God" really interchangeable with "have eternal life"? I don't think so. The one phrase "have eternal life" has to do with justification--everyone who believes in Christ will receive this. The other phrase "inherit the kingdom" of God has to do with our execution of the Christian way of life. Some will produce beautifully because they search God's word daily, are positive to it and obey;they will receive wonderful blessings on this earth and extra rewards in heaven. And others, will believe in Christ yet never be exposed to what Christian living is all about because they think legalism is Christianity and they never search God's word to find the truth, or they know it and chose not to do it. Does this latter group lose their salvation? If it does than believing in the Son is not enough for eternal life. Or does this latter group simply lose the additional rewards which God has for them in heaven but they never reach the state of maturity on earth in order to receive them. There are many blessings that Christians never receive on this earth because they aren't mature enough in there Christian life to be able to handle them. Just like you can't give a 3 year old certain priviledges that you can give a 10 year old; God can't give us certain blessings because we are too juvenile to have them. There will not be equality in heaven. When Jesus said the "poor will always be among us" this means in heaven as well. There will be believers in Heaven--like the thief on the cross--that never did anything other than "Believe in the Son". They will escape "through the flames" with nothing but a ressurection body everything else they have done will be consumed. If a drunk person can't go to heaven and an obese person can't go there either than I'll never make it. Although I've never been drunk and I'm not obese. Because if these two conditions are enough to keep them out then "my tongue", which has participated in some of the most detestable sins to God, has long ago cancelled out my belief in Christ. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Yes, according to I Cor. 6:11, our sanctification is already completed. "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Sabra, you can't be more sanctified than you are already by being in Christ. I think our problem in understanding this whole issue is that we still imagine in our minds that there are many levels of sin. Somehow, our minds want to believe that the murderer's sin is worse than the smoker's sin. And the smoker's sin is worse than the sin of lying. And lying is worse than our living our day without relying on the Lord. So, therefore, our sin that we might struggle with at any given moment is no where near as bad as the person next to us who is struggling with drug addiction. But folks, spiritually, it is all sin..........that's all...just sin. So I don't struggle with addiction to alcohol, doesn't mean I'm not struggling with an issue of laying down something else, like simply relying on the scripture stored in my memory instead of getting fresh manna everyday from the Word. It's just this subtle thinking we get into...satan is very effective with this weapon, don't you think? It gets the one struggling with addiction in the dangerous place of thinking, "I blew it so bad this week, I just can't show my face to those folks at church, so I'll stay home and try to battle this on my own" (and therefore accepting the identity of "I'm just an old sinner" and throwing their hands up in defeat and thinking that this thing just doesn't work, when God wants them to see themselves as freed from the bondage and "saved by GRACE"). And it keeps the "stronger" believer in the equally spiritually wrong place of thinking, "man, what is WRONG with that guy with his still smoking? I'm not going to bother trying to develop any relationship with him!" (and therefore thinking "I am a saint unworthy of being soiled by contact with that kind of person") See my point? It's all sin to be repented of. (Gatororeo, of course Christ took all our sins to the cross. But I do think we still have to repent of the sin when God makes us aware of an area that needs work in our life.) The repenting is only the first baby step, tho. That's the recognition that there IS, in fact, a problem and that it IS, in fact, harming our relationship with Him. After that we have to learn the new way of being. That's where the work, the daily choices, comes in of drawing near to God everyday and LISTENING to what He tells us to do and following that particular instruction of the moment. That's the process part. And, I think, this is where so many folks blow it. They hear the part of the truth about "God forgives" and "God can change you", and "He can free you from your addiction" but it takes them awhile longer to really hear, and understand, the part about "now the real battle begins". And after that they have to reach the point of understanding that the battle is not in personally fighting against the addiction, but rather that the battle is prayer. It is in our being close to Him, beholding Him, communicating with Him, and listening to Him. That's where He is able to change our hearts to become the person whom satan can no longer effect with the temptation or hurt..... Crumbs, I just preached to myself. Watchman Nee wrote an excellent book called Sit, Walk, Stand that addresses the issue. Carol, I'm from the tobacco growing area of Kentucky. Actually, the situation is far more weird than you think. Many of the Christians I knew growing up there were very much down on smoking...and I mean extremely so. And yet now, with the big push going on in the US against smoking they all feel so very sorry for the "poor tobacco farmer who is struggling". They just don't seem to grasp the hypocracy of that! It's amazing! | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thank you all for your wonderful responses. My understanding is right there with yours, but I came across 1Cor 3:16,17: Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. That goes against everything I believe, there's another similiar verse in Isaiah I think. ????? | ||
| Darrell (Darrell) |
Sabra, notice the context of 1 Cor 3. Paul is talking about jealousy and disputes within the church in Corinth (see vs. 3,4), so when he says that you (plural) are the temple of God he is talking about the church, and the defilement referred to is the result of the problems going on in the church. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good point, Darrell. But many of you have said it so wellówhen we accept Jesus, we are already sanctified. (And yes, I agree, JoelóBob George is a must-read!) The Holy Spirit persistently, one thing at a time, convicts uf of things we need to change or give up or of ways we must grow. These things are part of growing in Christ. When we accept Jesus, he begins to reveal to us places in our hearts and memories that we didn't even know were there. We hide from the most embarassing and painful experiences in our lives, and Jesus in love gradually brings those things to our attention when it's time to heal from those things. Addictions and fears and harmful behaviors are all part of those closed doors, and Jesus faithfully opens them and heals us from their destructive contents. When we accept Jesus, we continue to repent, and He shows us places we need to grow and change. But we're not repenting to stay saved or to be saved. Rather, we're repenting because we ARE saved! We are his; we are sanctified; our growth is his personal concern. Praise God for being faithful! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Being overweight is NOT the same as having an addiction to drugs, alcohol, and tobacco. We all require food to stay alive, but our bodies do NOT require the above vices to exist in any shape or form. Being overweight or underweight is indeed a serious medical and sociological problem. Having said that, however, there are frequently medical, lifestyle, and heriditary reasons for being overweight and even being morbidly obese. The vast majority of overweight people are not practitioners of gluttony. I personally know of several people that have endocrinal problems as a result of major surgery and one of a rare disease. These friends of mine were in the best of physical fitness before their endocrinal glands malfunctioned--a chemical imbalance, etc. The human body is very complex. Being overweight or underweight is easily noticed, even judgmentalized by society, whereas many other problems are easily hidden. None of us can claim a perfect body this side of heaven. To have a perfect body, one needs a perfect diet as well. Thankfully, our Savior has promised to provide a perfect diet (see Rev. 22:1-2) for the redeemed of all ages. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sins, whatever the source, are not an issue in our salvation--sins are not even an issue for an unbeliever. Christ died for the sins of all the world (that includes the sins of unbelievers). If sins are not an issue than no sin can keep us out of heaven. The only thing that can keep us out of heaven is not believing the Gospel message. No one will be judged according to their sins. Even the unbelievers who stand before the great white throne will not be judged for their sins. Sins are not mentioned in Rev. 20:11-17. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Amen, Lori! The issue is JESUS. Richard recently heard from an old acquaintance who shared the past painful and broken 25 years and said he/she is currently, after two divorces, living with a third partner. This person was more than a little upset about Richard's leaving the church and asked with some heat how he could risk his eternal security by calling EGW a false prophet when, even though Adventists don't really use everything she wrote, God might have used her? Further, this person said, although he/she rarely attends church, how could Richard even think of attending on Sunday? This person could never worship on Sunday and would rather not ever go at all than go on Sunday. Of course, this person said, one has to find the right pastor and the right congregationómany are boring and deadóbut when one does find the right pastor and the right congregation, one just feel at home. You and I will both, this person said, have to decide which side we're onóthe side that keeps Saturday, or the side that keeps Sunday. That, after all, will be the final conflict and point of loyalty. Isn't is WONDERFUL to know that the final point of loyalty will not be to anything we do but rather to a personóthe Lord Jesus?! Wow, the confusion and guilt and crazy-making that ends when we finally know Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Colleen, Yes it is wonderful that we do not have to debate about which day to worship on. But don't give up on her. Not two years ago I told my husband that I would NEVER go to church on Sunday. Now I can't wait to get there. Vi | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Colleen, That coversation your husband recently had with an individual sounds all too familiar...it just makes my stomach queezy...When I first started attending a "Sunday church" I really struggled, and had to pray that God would give me peace about it if this was where He was leading me. And Praise God, He did! Thanking Jesus, Janet | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Colleen, "Our growth is His personal concern". Wow... I really needed that today! You don't know how much... Thank you for being a vessel of God's grace to me today! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Praise God! | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
I like what Paul has to say in I. Timothy 2:20-21 about sanctification "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work." (NIV) In the KJV the wording is a little more confusing, and I once thought in order to be an instrument for noble purposes you had to be a gold or silver pot, that it was something to aspire to. But then one day I noticed all you had to do was to be a clean pot. If you are a dirty pot, you got used to carry out the garbage or feed the pigs. But if you were clean, maybe you could be the pot that the king ate out of. That is what sancify means to me, being set apart for the king. Even if you got dirty sometimes, there's nothing a good wash won't fix. The scripture then goes on about how to keep your pot clean. What is the point of sancification according to these verses if it only happens at the very end of one's life? A person is sanctified to fulfill the purpose for which he or she was created. --Hannah | ||
| Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider) |
"Being set apart for the King", thank you, Hannah for that thought. A good way to start the day! Inside/outsider | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, I understand that being overweight can be a medical issue and we have to have food. I don't see that a person with an eating disorder such as bulemia, anorexia or just addiction is any different than a person addicted to drugs or alcohol, they are both abusing their temple. Both addictions or pre-occupations could be idols, right? After thinking and praying about this post I started, it seems that the sins of the saved person are the same as the unsaved, just not recognized by God, as they are covered by the blood, so He sees us as righteous no matter what we do and deals with us by corrections to cause us to have peace and be fruitful. So, that verse about the alcoholic not entering into heaven is an unsaved person, while a saved person might fall into a sinful addiction but not be called a sinner by God since he is the righteousness of God. Glad I could clear that one up for myself! HA! | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
...set apart for the King. I like it. Both sanctification and holy mean "set apart". An excellent article in a recent National Geographic got me to thinking. When diamonds are mined, a machine sifts everything, "sets apart" the diamonds, and dumps everything else. Each diamond is a different size, shape, and color from every other one, and every diamond is unique. Each one ultimately is selected, graded, and sent to be cut, polished, and set or otherwise processed. Every diamond ultimately ends up in some piece of jewelry or idustrial tool it has been selected and prepared for by an expert in such things. Even ore that contains the potential for a single diamond is reprocessed just in case there's anything to "set apart" in there. Everything else gets tossed for good. That pretty much describes how I view "holy" and "sanctification". I've been selected, I'm being cut and polished now, I'll be set soon. It even sounds something like how the ultimate judgement of mankind must work. I think the parable works, hope it helps. |
