| Author | Message | ||
| Graceambassador |
Great question Doug! I beg the opportunity to answer, please allow my half a cent worth: If you will tithe because you do not want to offend your weaker brother, THEN YOUR THITING IS IN FACT VOLUNTARY, AND NOT WITHIN THE LEVITICAL SYSTEM. We are not (I suppose) speaking of a legal amount per se. We are speaking of a LEGAL OBLIGATION. When tithing is done with the purpose of not "offending the weaker brother" then it is NOT A LEGAL OBLIGATION, but it is done on behalf of the fellowship. Since we BELIEVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL EVENTUALLY TURN A WEAKER BROTHER INTO A STRONGER ONE, THIS TYPE OF "NO OFFENSE" TITHING WOULD BE TEMPORARY, WHICH AGAIN, REMOVES IT FROM THE LEVITICAL OBLIGATORY SYSTEM. It all depends on how long we intent to let the weaker brother go weak without balanced biblical teaching! I have never seen anyone so weak that they get offended if I gave an amount that "I proposed in my heart" according to 2 Cor. 9, and gave 20% rather than 10%. The point is VOLUNTARISM, AND NOT LEGALISM! I hope this helps! In His Grace Grace Ambassador | ||
| Violet |
When you look at the widow and the two coins she gave. Jesus looked upon her offering as a much higher quality than that of the pharasees. Her offering was not tithe, it was ALL she had not just 10%. Jesus was pleased with what came from the heart and not from the law. Just my 2 cents. Vi | ||
| Dennis |
The initial illustration in the Bible about any tithing concerns the account of Abraham and Melchizedek in Genesis 14. Following the slaughter of the kings, Abraham returned to central Palestine with his nephew named Lot, the other captives, and with a large amount of spoil that was taken from the northern kings (verses 16,17). Abraham then met Melchizedek and gave him a tenth of the spoil. "He gave him tithes of all" (verse 20). The remainder of the captured goods was given to the king of Sodom (verse 21-24). Notice that Abraham actually gave everything away from the spoils of war; he kept nothing for himself. Consider this action by Abraham. There is no agreement whatever with the law of tithing later revealed in the Book of Leviticus. Indeed, Moses required that the tithe be paid ONLY on the increase of the LAND and ANIMALS (Leviticus 27:30,31). But with Abraham, he did not work to produce any of the spoil he had recovered. Spoil does not represent an increase from farms or ranches. There was no biblical teaching which showed that Abraham was required to give a tenth of the spoil to Melchizedek. Actually, much later in the time of Moses, the Israelites were informed what should be done with any spoil they might capture from their enemies such as that which Abraham captured in his day. SUCH SPOIL WAS NOT TO BE TITHED AS SHOWN IN THE LAW OF MOSES. When the Israelites obtained spoil from the Midianites, Moses insisted that the priests receive 1/500th of the goods from those who had gone to war--not 1/10th as a tithe would require (Numbers 31:9,27-29). The Levites got more booty. They received 1/50th of the congregation's half of the spoil (verse 30). Again, THE LAW CONCERNING "SPOILS" IN WAR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LATER ORDAINED TITHE. But let us again consider the action of Abraham. If Moses was recording in Genesis a universal law of tithing when he wrote about Abraham giving a tenth of his spoils to Melchizedek, why does he depart from that very law some 400 years later with a completely different set of figures? In truth, Abraham was not following any law of tithing on spoil or on anything else. Abraham's tenth was only in the nature of a voluntary (free will) offering of thanksgiving to God for the deliverance of his people from captivity. If more evidence of the voluntary nature of tithing is needed before the time of Moses, the account of Jacob's tithing provides it(see Genesis 28:20-22). Jacob's tenth was a vow, and Abraham's tenth was a tribute. Please remember that a tenth or tithe was commomplace in the Ancient Near East. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sherry2 |
Well then let us bring our tribute to Jesus who is of a better priesthood that the Levites, and of Melchizedek....who is worthy of our being good stewards of everything He's given to us....whether we eat or drink, or in whatever we do, to give glory unto the Lord Most High! He alone is worthy! :) | ||
| Doug222 |
I had a "jaw dropper" experience in church this week. The Pastor got up to announce the tithe and offering. He stated that Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek before the Mosaic law had ever been institute. Then he said, "how did Abraham know to give a tithe if this principal wasn't already in existance." If that was bad enough, he went on to say that because the tithe belongs to the Lord, anyone who does not return a tithe is "in jeopardy of losing their salvation." Those were his exact words. He stated that the need to give a tithe and a "liberal" offering are primary, and even taking care of ones own family is secondary to it. Its no coincidence that the church is having a difficult time meeting its monthly need. Tactics such as this are what Chuck Swindoll calls "Grace Killers" is his book "The Grace Awakening." I am so grateful for the discussion we have had on this forum. It has helped me to understand that God has made me a steward of my resources. He has not called me to abdicate my stewardship responsibility by compulsory giving. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sherry2 |
Whew! That is scary, Doug. Grace killer definitely. Has he not heard the verse that says to take care of your own family and that if you don't your worse then an unbeliever? Very scary! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
As many of you may know, Crown Ministries is an interdenominational organization that promotes tithing among other things. Larry Burkette, the Founder/Director, has a nationwide, daily radio program on Christian radio stations. Several months ago, he even stated that if you don't pay tithe, you are not a Christian. Here is a copy of my July 5, 2002 e-mail to them: "Dear Crown Ministry friends, Why don't we just make "principles" out of all the Old Covenant rituals? Interestingly, many modern churchmen, although claiming to be New Covenant believers, do not trust the benevolence of their parishioners. Instead, they demand that a Old Covenant "tithe" be paid, as though they were Levites, to create a guilt complex in their flock for non-compliance (Old Covenant=GOD determined the amount; New Covenant=WE determine the amount). On the other hand, the Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. The Apostle Paul was concerned that some early Christians were possibly giving beyond their means. We, as Christians, have the freedom of giving (not under any legalistic compulsion). Furthermore, there NEVER was a monetary tithe under the Old Covenant tithing codes. Significantly, Jesus never demanded a Levitical tithe from His followers to finance His ministry while on this earth. Jesus' ministry was privately funded by those who believed in His message. Importantly, Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi; the early Christians leaders were smart enough to know that they were not Levites. Without the Levitical system in place, it is impossible to tithe--just ask any Rabbi. Sadly, your ministry does a great disserve to Christians by putting them under the Law of Moses instead of our freedom of giving in Christ. My extensive research has determined that Mormons and Adventists are the most stringent tithers. They have innumberable testimonies (even in book form) of how God blessed them throughout their tithing history. Obviously, this fact does not remotely prove their orthodoxy to the Christian faith. If tithing is valid, then certainly you ought to preach Sabbatarianism, food lists, etc. as well. Tithing is an insufficient model for the Christian today; it is both too limiting and too excessive to fit into our modern world. The great Reformer, Zwingle, was strongly opposed to the compulsory nature of tithing. He further denounced it as limiting the giving of many devout believers. Cordially, Dennis J. Fischer" | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Dennis, I commend you for communicating with Larry Burkett. He is such a big advocate of tithing in a legalistic sense. He is not a Theologian, and I guess that was his upbringing . Like everything else we have to be discerning, and most importantly search the scriptures ourselves. I find many christians do not understand the old/new covenant teaching. The tithing issue is a big deal in some denominations. However, I hear more and more prominent Bible teachers especially on the radio pointing out the New Testament teaching about tithe. Bmorgan | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I listen to Larry a lot on my way home from work and I have heard him tell callers that they are NOT obligated to pay a tithe if God hasn't put it on their heart to do so. He believes that tithing is something the Holy Spirit will prompt a believer to do. For instance, one person called in and asked if they should pay tithe on their gross or net and he replied that the amount of tithe you pay doesn't matter, that God does not keep a log of how much you give, He just gives you a heart to give. He also stressed that it has nothing to do with your salvation. God put it on my heart to give a cetain amount weekly to the church and it is about 5%, we became christians with a lot of debt and while He has definately shown me not to get into more debt, He is helping us to get out. I then give quite a bit to other causes that are not my church on a regular basis. Such as a child I sponser and a couple of ministries I've prayed about giving to. Our pastor believes that if a person has gotten themselves into a financial problem they should pray about tithing 3% or whatever and be consistent with it and as their debt decreases, increase the tithe. I feel so blessed by God to even live in this country and have what we have. I can't imagine not giving some of that back. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
By definitoin isn't a tithe a tenth? Therefore, if you are not giving a tenth, then you are giving an offering. I too have heard Larry talk about God not being an accountant. I think the problem is when we attempt to use an old covenant term to describe a new covenant practice. I believe the reason people (including Larry) continue to use the word "tithe" is because it makes it takes it out of the voluntary realm. Larry is found of saying, "do we trust God or do we just say we do?" When I hear people pushing the tithe, I want to turn that question around on them, "do they really trust God or do they just say they do?" If they trust God, then they will realize that God will provide--with us or without us. He certainly does not need our money. As a side note, our pastor preached a sermon on giving a while back. It was the first time I really understood the concept of giving (stewardship). Before, the issue was always, am I giving my tithes and offering--which usually worked out to about 15%. Now, I see that stewardship has nothing to do with how much I give, it has to do with my management of God's resources. In other words, all 100% is his. Am I using it wisely. The other 85% is not necessarily mine to do what I please with. This concept extends to everything I "own" or have been charged with the management of (time, body, talents, etc.) This is not something that was preached in the SDA church. There the most important thing was to make sure God (or the church) got His share and to follow certain old testamanet rules about what I put in my body, but I really did not see an emphasis on comprehensive accountability. It required quite a paradigm shift, one I have not completely embraced as I should. Anyway, that's just my $.02 worth. Doug | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
In our old SDA church they went so far as to not allow you to hold office if you did not "Tithe" to the conference. You could be giving 50% to the local budget, but if you did not mark Tithe you were out of office. I think that is a direct result of the structure of the SDAs by them owing all of the property and paying the pastors salary. The orginization must be in control. As we now he who has the gold makes the rules. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Violet: I am certain that this is a formal rule currently enforced. My wife is the treasurer for her church. She and others have mentioned, in my presence that this is a requirement mandated by church rules. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
The freedom that is in our Lord Jesus may impose too much responsibility on some Christians. Therefore, they turn to old covenant rules and regulations to govern their actions, including their financial giving to the church. It is much easier to give 10 percent of a paycheck than to decide for themselves how much to give (as led by the Spirit). In addition, giving 10 percent is measurable, and therefore, Christians can be justified by meeting the requirements of the rule. It is much easier to have someone, or something, govern their giving rather than deciding how much, what, how, when, and to whom to give, as the Spirit leads. Furthermore, many Christians are quite comfortable with the old covenant regulations, and seem content to receive justification by them. Unfortunately, this complacency causes many to stray from the will of God by not walking under the influence of the Spirit. Tithing does not guarantee a relationship with Jesus or find favor with God. Christians can tithe until they go broke, but that will not keep the Lord from saying, "I never knew you." There are many inappropriate reasons for giving. These include: Old covenant legalism; fear of a curse; standard based giving; and expectation of money in return, the book of Luke (in chapter 6:32-36) states that Christians should expect nothing in return for giving. Acceptable reasons for giving, within the freedom provided through Jesus, include giving proportionately (as to their own faith and means), voluntarily, spontaneously, generously, and humbly. In addition, Christians are to first take care of their immediate family. "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" (I Timothy 5:8). Finally, Christians ought to take seriously the work of those who teach and preach, as well as the work of the other church ministries. The lack of support puts preachers and teachers in the position of 'begging' for money, when their material and monetary support should be overflowing. The calling of one to teach the Word is worthy of support that would alleviate the struggle of daily living. Christians should get their ministers out of 'survivor' mode, with concerns about paying bills, so that they can effectively handle the ministries of the church. "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver" (2 Cor. 9:7 KJV). Let us practice Spirit-led (Grace) giving! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
A great movie just appeared in my mailbox, free of charge called "The Sacred Journey of the Holy Tithe." I'm sure it's going to be great watching. It promises to answer questions such as Where does my tithe money go? What does the Bible say about tithe? and Where should I send my tithe? It claims to help me see the power and importance of tithe in a whole new light!! I am troubled that I haven't heard anything about this before. Oh yes, it's presented by the Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. How nice of them to send me something so free and helpful. LOL --Hannah | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Ooooo! This sounds JUST like the FREE MONEY . . . (erm, credit card cash advance checks with the loan commitment agreement in the endorsement space.) . . . I get in the mail almost every day!!! Or, maybe it is like the "good faith deposit" you give to the kind stranger who helped you "find" some money on the street. OK, enough sarcasm. I would be interested if one could compare what the film says about where the money goes versus where it really goes. Not likely. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oh, "Holy Tithe!!??" There is one dictionary that has a definition of "holy" including "worthy of worship." Sounds a little like that might be the implication. No confirmation of my impression expected. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
CROWN MINISTRIES UPDATE As of today (July 9, 2002), Larry Burkett has not replied to my e-mail message. Perhaps Mr. Burkett is smart enough to know that he is not a Levite (smile). My wife, Sylvia, recently shared with me the following excellent quotation from Warren W. Wiersbe, a notable Evangelical author and former BACK TO THE BIBLE teacher: "We today are under a different "stewardship" from that of Moses and the prophets, and we must be careful not to confuse what God has clarified." (Be Rich, p. 76) By the way, Dr. Woodrow Kroll, president of the BACK TO THE BIBLE radio ministry here in Lincoln, Nebraska, delivied an excellent sermon last Sunday at our church. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Lucky you, Dennis. I think Woodrow Kroll is an excellent Bible Teacher. I hear him most weekday mornings on the radio at 6:30. I wish I were at your church to hear him in person. Is he your pastor? Bmorgan | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
LOL...."HOLY TITHE!". This may just be the substitute I've been needing to finally weed out the ever favorite "Holy $pit" expression from my vocabulary once and for all! | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Of course they will tell you exactly where your Holy Tithe will go to. They have there own Holy Auditors that must be SDAs because noone from the outside "independent auditors" could understand how the tithing works. This was a resonse I received from the NAD treasury department when inquiring about legal fees being paid with tithe money. For whatever scandle was going on two years ago, I forgot which scandle it was. |
