| Author |
Message |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 8:56 am: |     |
How true, Doug! If you do not have an understanding of Christís death and resurrection, Romans becomes hard to understand. In that case, many take it to mean that we are still firmly in the grip of the Covenant made with the Israelites at Sinai.
I recently had a ìdiscussionî with an Adventist where he could not begin to understand what Paul was saying in Romans. He could not listen to the message of freedom. He could not begin to understand that we have no ability to properly observe the law and need to let go of that burden so the Holy Spirit can do what it is supposed to do.
I have always been fond of Galatians. However, my favorite book is Hebrews. What a wonderfully clear and detailed exploration of the covenants and ministries! Nevertheless, without Galatians, Romans, a reasonably correct definition of the law, and understanding of our relationship to the law, Hebrews is a mystery. It might as well be a random set of words arranged in no particular order.
In His word,
Jerry |
Wally (Wally)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 10:46 am: | |
Jerry and all,
I agree that Hebrews is an amazing book, especially after reading and understanding Paul's writings and John's gospel.
One question I do have regarding the "rest" of Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 - the SDA Commentary seems to explain pretty clearly that this is the rest of Christ's grace. Yet, it seems that some SDA's interpret this rest as either 1) the continuation of the 7th day sabbath rest or 2) the rest we will enjoy only when we reach heaven.
Coming from a non-SDA background, I was wondering if anyone could shed additional light on support for these interpretations. Is it the grace plus something idea?
His Blessings to all
Wally |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 11:01 am: | |
I so agree with you, Jerry, about Galatians laying the foundation for understanding Romans and finally Hebrews. We really do have to see these things one "level" at a time. I relate to what you said, Doug, about understanding Jesus' finished work before he could take you to the "next level". I've had that same experience. And African, your husband's illustration about continuing to carry the load when relief is right beside you is so apt!
I thought about this thread this morning when I came across (again, but in a new light!) this passage in Galatians 5:24-26: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
What's interesting to me is that this passage immediately follows the list of the fruit of the Spirit. And by the way, that is singular "fruit", not plural "fruits". I can't remember who pointed that out to meóit might have been our pastor in a sermon. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are one fruit. The Holy Spirit gives us all of them, but we must grow in them. They don't descend on us fully developed!
In verse 24- and 25 Paul acknowledges that if we belong to Christ, we've crucified our sinful natures. Yet he doesn't say we will automatically live in perfection. He says, "Since we live by the Spirit (present tense!), let us keep in step with the Spirit." Our bodies will not be redeemed until the resurrection. Our spirits are redeemed and made alive when we accept Jesus. Once we accept him, the Holy Spirit is in us, but we still have our unglorified brains and synapses and weaknesses pulling us back toward our natural state: spiritual death. The Holy Spirit protects us and helps us grow and helps us see how our old ways of living are destructive, and the Holy Spirit gives us the desire to let go of what we used to hang onto. But we still must choose to walk with the Spirit.
If we don't choose to walk with the Spirit, He will not leave us. He is still there, nurturing and disciplining and reminding and empowering. We have a new perspective; we can see sin for its awfulness. We have new power; we can learn to let go of the sins and habits that used to define us to our shame. But those sin-etched synapses in our brain don't disappear when our spirits become alive in Christ. The Holy Spirit continues to waken our understanding to match our new spiritual inheritance, and we continually choose to grow and accept what he shows us.
As we grow in him, he does seem to change our synapses so we more and more desire and relfect him. As Paul says in Romans 8:11, "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."
Jesus gives new life and transformation to us in these unglorified bodies through the Holy Spirit's power. It doesn't happen all at once, and that transformation is not the ability to keep the law, as Adventists say. Rather, it's the literal change of our characters into increasingly Godly existence. We must be willing to let him show us the embarassing and painful things about ourselves that he wants to transform and redeem. As we increasingly say "Yes" to him as he works in us, we increasingly reflect him.
I'm so thankful for the miracle of new birth and the ongoing transformation Jesus works in us!
Colleen |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 11:18 am: | |
So true, Colleen!
Hi Wally,
I think they are missing the point in the commentary and either of your two examples of Adventist interpretation. These are shallow, limited, and skewed interpretations of what Paul is saying. This is not an uncommon approach, from what I have seen and read.
The ìrest of Christís graceî is true in a limited fashion. However, the epistle is talking about an unlimited concept. I propose that you must keep in mind the following:
1. Paul is talking about Godís rest (katapausis) in the same way as Genesis.
2. Everything in the Ten Commandments points backwards and forwards in the plan of salvation. The Sabbath points backward to remember Godís rest at the end of the creation week. It also points forward to the rest given by grace by Jesus.
3. Everything in the law (first five books of the Bible) is a ìshadowî pointing to the substance of Christ.
4. The people who would ìnever enter my restî were the very people who were observing the Sabbath as diligently as people could.
5. Paul did NOT say ìthere remains a Sabbath day (sabbaton). He said ìthere remains a Sabbath REST (sabbatismos). What he means by that as evidenced by the context is that this remaining rest surely is related to the Sabbath, but it is a more complete and substantive rest. It is the substance to which the shadow of the Sabbath day pointed.
6. Christ said, in Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
He did NOT say
Come unto me LATER, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, EVENTUALLY.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls AFTER I RETURN.
For my yoke WILL BE easy, and my burden TURNS OUT LATER, TO BE light.
Jerry |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 11:46 am: | |
Oh, and one more thing. Since Adventists try to divide the Law into ìthe law of Godî (the Ten Commandments) and ìthe law of Mosesî (every other statute and ordinance in the pentateuch) did you ever notice the following?
If you restrict yourself to the Ten Commandments, there is NO MENTION OF WORSHIP associated with the Sabbath. That comes later in Leviticus where it is noted as a feast day with a Holy convocation along with other such days.
The fourth commandment just says, ìdo not do any kind of work.î Further, the most important violation of the Sabbath day is if you DO WORK! This is significant. The purpose of the Sabbath day was REST of your FLESH from physical labor. This is done in remembrance of Godís rest. Jesus promised rest for your SOUL! That is the substance promised by the Commandment, but not until the object lesson was learned. The lesson being that you need to understand that YOU cannot be perfect in obeying God. You need His grace given as the gift of the Holy Spirit. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 3:18 pm: | |
Oops, Wally, I guess I gave the right answer but that was not your question.
I think others could probably explain better why Adventists give those answers.
All I will say is, ìthe Sabbath is the Seal of Godî or the great test of a true Christian when Christ returns, according to EGW. Now, we cannot have any scripture contradicting "Saint Ellen", can we? |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 5:36 pm: | |
Jerry, you gave good answers and insights. I'd like to add that when I was an Adventist, I found Hebrews difficult and confusing. In spite of what the commentary says about Sabbath being about rest in Christ, they still use Hebrews 4 to argue that the seventh-day Sabbath is still important. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's what many of them do. Further, Adventists will give lip service to rest in Christ, but because of the overlay of insecurity spawned by the investigative judgement doctrine, they don't really believe rest in Christ happens until the second coming. Anything we have NOW related to rest is the PROMISE of rest, not the real thing.
Furthermore, and this probably helps explain why they talk out of both sides of their mouths, Adventists really do not believe there is an old covenant and a new covenant. The two are different names for the same eternal covenant, they say. The old covenant was merely a different expression of the eternal covenant, and the new covenant is a more up-to-date- statement of it. Since there aren't really two covenants, then both must still exist, and both must be equally valid expressions. These are really crazy-making argumentsóthat's why so many of us felt a little crazy and unable to deal with it all.
Adventists teach that the Old and the New Testaments are equal in instructional and theological value. Now, as a Christian, I see that the Old Testament is a rich and amazing shadow of what would happen in the New Testament. I also see that the Old Testament must be interpreted in light of the New. Adventists, however, do not believe that. The Old and the New stand shoulder-to-shoulder, equal in importance and value and application.
Consequently, Adventist theologians are caught. They say that Hebrews is about rest in Christ, and they are right. But they must also affirm that the law is still as applicable to believers today as it was to Israel before Christ. Therefore, rest in Christ becomes skewed; it becomes a future hope but not really a present reality. The new covenant will not really be consummated until the second coming.
Even though many younger Adventists do not understand how completely Adventism is shaped by EGW and by the "peculiar" doctrines of the church, that shaping is still real. While on one hand there is a concerted effort to make SDAism evangelical and acceptable to the larger Christian community, at the same time Jan Paulsen, GC president, is publishing a document saying his own salvation would be in danger if he stopped keeping the Sabbath. At the same time the theology faculties of SDA colleges and universities are being made to sign doctrinal statements of belief, which many of them cannot sign in good conscience. Nothing has really changed. It's still not a new covenant, evangelical church as much as it tries to masqueradeóeven to itselfóas one. It's still shaped and claimed by deception.
Thankful for eternal Sabbath rest,
Colleen |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 6:06 pm: | |
Amen, Amen, and Amen. If this were the Olympics and Colleen were attempting a difficult dive, she would have scored a perfect ten. She nailed it!
I have yet to figure out how much decpeption their is in Adventism and how much of it is just plain ignorance. I know that for most of the laity (sp) it is ignorance--and I don't mean that perjoratively. As far as the leadership is concerned, the jury is still out. I just cannot understand how people like Doug Batchelor, George Vandeman, Mark Finley, C.D. Brooks, etc. can peddle this snake oil. I believe these guys are very sincere in their beliefs and are well studied. I can almost understand it for those who "inherited" their faith, but for ones who converted like Doug Batchelor, I just can't see it.
Understanding the confusion among the lay people is much easier to account for. The average lay person (as in most denominations/churches) simply accepts what is spoonfed to them, and couldn't defend what they believed if they had to.
As I have said before, I think the real issue with Adventism (either intentionally or unintentionally)is control. I heard someone say the other day that some people are so afraid that if you give people grace that you are giving them a license to sin, that they swing to the opposite extreme and throw the baby out with the bathwater--where have I heard that before. They swing to the opposite extreme, and appoint themselves as the "gatekeepers to the kingdom." Like Judas, they see God as mismanaging this whole salvation thing, so they attempt to help him make sure no riff raft gets in. They will use any means necessary to achieve their objective, including twisting scripture to support heir beliefs.
Doug |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 7:48 pm: | |
Hey Wally,
Hebrews 4 was my enlightening chapter out of Adventism. God spoke so clearly to me in it. The way I understand it,In the beginning God created a perfect world. No sin, no work, a very personal relationship was established with Adam and Eve. God talked to them, they had complete access to God. It was perfect. After the fall, man was separated from God. There was no holy spirit dwelling in men before Christ's coming, the world became very evil. Contrary to SDA teaching, there is no mention of the 7th day Sabbath until Moses. Remember Jesus said to the Pharisees who were so concerned about Him breaking the Sabbath that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Why was the Sabbath made for man? Because man was evil, man had no connection to God, no Holy Spirit, no access to even pray to God-he was separated. The Sabbath was established to provide a connection to God, a day in which the people could set aside their sinning and reflect on God. Man was not made for the Sabbath because there was no need of a Sabbath before man. What would you cease from if there was no sin, no work? The laws did not connect man to God, for this reason, Jesus had to come and die. After the cross, the work of man is complete and the work falls on Jesus, man can again rest in Him, like it was intended from the beginning. Israel never understood this, they never accepted His gift, they never got His rest. They will one day. After the cross we have the holy spirit living in us, we have direct access to God to pray and worship Him. We are called to serve Him everyday, not just one day a week. The fourth commandment is magnified, completed, established in Christ's death. Hebrews 4 seems to be written to those who had received the gospel but didn't know what to do about the 4th commandment: Therefore, since a promise remains of entering into His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us (the gentiles) as well as to them (the jews)but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in my wrath, They (Jews) shall not enter My rest" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way, "And God rested on the Seventh day from all His works" and again in this place, "They shall not enter My rest" Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today" after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts" For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore, a rest for the people of God. For He who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
It's everyday "Today" to me, tomorrow, the next day, peace, communion with God and REST.
Hope that helps.
Sabra |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 8:27 pm: | |
Doug,
I wholeheartedly agree that most Adventists do not really know what they believe. They are merely cultural Adventists. Sadly, I remember how I used to reason about my being a cultural Adventist. On multiple occasions, I told people how I was really an Adventist because I really personally believed that way--not because I grew up that way. It is very disturbing to see many SDA ministers, with even Master's degree's from Andrews Theological Seminary, that have very limited knowledge of Adventist history and doctrine. For example, a young evangelist once came to me and confided in me, that he was afraid he would get mixed up while presenting the 2300-day prophecy in his public lectures. He was always afraid that his math might not come out to 1844 (perhaps that is why William Miller used 15 different charts with 15 different timelines). Adventism is incredibly complex. Untruths (lies) need ALOT of explaining to be even remotely believable.
Not only are the lay members spoonfed, but their ministers are as well. It is truly like the blind leading the blind.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 7:17 am: | |
Excellent discussion going on here. Just wanted to interject one observation as a bit of a side thing. Jerry, way back up there at the top of this page, you made this statement:
"He could not begin to understand that we have no ability to properly observe the law and need to let go of that burden so the Holy Spirit can do what it is supposed to do."
Hopefully this was just a tangled finger to brain thing. The Holy Spirit is HE not it.
That aside, isn't it amazing how, on this side of SDAism that Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews just flow together? As an SDA they seemed jumpy and disjointed and in need of "explanation" on our part. You know, it really should be a red flag to us as believers when we are reading something and just can't "get" it. I imagine that all too often we aren't "getting it" because we have some skewed understanding of the basic concept behind the subject. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 7:23 am: | |
Yes, Lydell sloppy, fast typing.
Sorry. |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 3:05 pm: | |
Oh good!
Will be praying for your church visit with your wife. Specifically, I'm praying that the Lord will prepare her heart and mind. He already knows where there is a tiny chink in the SDA armor. It's her own private chink that she voices to no one, not even you. But God knows. Praying that he will divinely prompt someone in that Bible study to unknowingly send an arrow of truth right thru that thing. Jerry, rest in the knowledge that as much as you love your wife and want her to know truth and be attracted to the freedom that other Christians enjoy, the Lord desires those things far greater than you can imagine. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 3:40 pm: | |
Thanks, Lydell.
I am trusting in His will, not mine.
Believe me when I say, I have and had no intention of using this to "have my way."
This visit is for my journey. That she decided to come with me did not come from ANY hint from me whether verbal, body language, or in relation to what she said. In fact, I made no mention of her accompanying me.
The Lord works His own will. If it is in the Lord's will to keep her in the SDA church, so be it.
If not, I will let Him decide when and how.
Of course, this may not be where I should be. We will see. I will keep everyone informed.
In His love,
Jerry |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 4:34 pm: | |
Doug 222,
The deception started early and continues today! The Millerites, at least the ones who became SDA's, were thrown out of their local churches for teaching a set time for Christ's coming. The churches (mostly Methodist) told them that doing that was against Scripture---but the Millerites refused to listen and were expelled.
Then 'truth' had to be re-invented with a dig at the folks who threw them out---that was the Shut Door and was another error.
Then the Shut Door had to go and in came the Sabbath and the Great Controversy---again, more self righteous railing against the folks who had been correct all along and more twisted doctrine for the 'remnant'.
W.A. Spicer, in the early 1900's wrote to EG Whites son Willie pleading with him to allow the church to admit to some of the deceptions---but also admitting that his pleas had gone unheard and unfulfilled for some time.
And so, the deception still continues. Did you see the most recent Review with a remake of EGW? And a contemporary re-write of Desire of Ages that makes it easier to hide the plagerized parts?
Check it out at ABC!
In Him,
Bill S. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 5:52 pm: | |
Bill, is that article available online? |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 12:47 pm: | |
Yes, the Review article should be online. What I doubt is online is the rather startling artistic re-make of EGW into a woman of today! Look up the GC's online site (I don't have the address bookmarked here at work) and at the bottom of the GC's main page is a link to the Adventist Review site.
Bill S. |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 8:13 pm: | |
MEDICAL NEWSNOTES!
After enduring a lithotripsy procedure for a kidney stone two weeks ago, today I further endured a three-minute stent removal procedure (cystoscopy). Oh yes, male patients have a difficult time forgetting such a customized procedure (smiles come after the OUCHES). I feel well again, praise God.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 9:18 am: | |
Praise God! |
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