| Author | Message | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Shereen, here's another: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=english&version=NIV | ||
| Doug222 |
Lori, Great food for thought! I can relate to what you said. While I am certainly not a musician (by any stretch of the imagination) and I haven't had a two year old in several years, I can relate to the Sabbath being the busiest day of the week. It certainly is not a "day of rest." Believe it or not, I have not heard of this concept of the Sabbath being a type of the rest we have in Jesus before coming to this forum--or maybe I heard it but automaticaly tuned it out. I am not necessarily accepting it now, but I will consider it as I study Hebrews. Thanks Doug | ||
| Shereen |
Thank you | ||
| Violet |
Lori, besides the music part, are you my clone? I did the potluck thing instead of the music. Our pastor wanted a potluck every Sabbath and it fell on my best girlfriend (Martha) and it rolled down to me to help. I yelled at my kids each week, I was exhausted on Friday night from cooking all day, I rushed around on sabbath morning doing cradle roll programs and many Sabbaths had children's story. I taught Adventureres on Wednesday night. Luckily I did not hold down a full time job. Every other weekend I was depressed because my 11 year old went to her non-advintist father. I worried all the time she was breaking the Sabbath and would be judged accordingly. My life now. If the house is not spotless on Friday night who cares, I can do it tomorrow. Lets sit down and read together. If my kids have overnight (and it happens) outgrown their church shoes, its Ok wear your dockers and tennis shoes. If we want to go to grandmas on saturday and she wants us to take her to Wal-Mart. Let's go. In other words my family sees me placing priorities on them and not some day of the week. We spend more time in Bible study and less on the "preperation day". I am more relaxed and calm since I left the Sabbath day behind and brought the Sabbath (Christ) rest into my life. Vi | ||
| Shereen |
Lori, Your story is so much like mine. I dreaded Sabbath for all the reasons you stated. I remember loving Sunday so I could rest. I am so thankful that I don't have to do that anymore. I remember a man at church said that to complain about being so busy doing the Lords work was horrible and I was a selfish woman for thinking that way. I was very upset. Alot of men in church don't have all the duties that women have and just don't understand. I remember hating alot of ppl in the period of my life. | ||
| Chuckiej |
I certainly understand where you ladies are coming from. My mom is the hardest working person there is on Sabbath. I have talked to her about not letting people use her up, because it defeats the purpose that the Sabbath was intended for. For myself (maybe because I'm a single man) I don't have the same anxiety. Although the house isn't always clean, I genuinely look forward to the Sabbath. I am in law school and was until recently, working as well. That exclusive time to spend with God is just what I need at the end of my weeks. Many of my friends who don't keep the Sabbath have said that they envy me. My grades are just as good, if not better than theirs, and I seem far less stressed than they are. I enjoy my perpetual Sabbath rest, but the weekly one is a blessing as well. | ||
| Violet |
That, I feel is the exact reason Paul told us not to worry if some want to keep it. Some need the dicipline that the sundown to sundown requires, while others don't. As far as those who study all the time and are exhausted, my bet is on they would do the same thing on the sabbath, but with just a different subject. Just my humble opinion | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Doug222, I saw that you said that my yesterdays post was a "clearly worded response." I'm glad it was clear, but, did you agree? If not, what point or points did you not agree with? I would really like to know. Maryann....IBC | ||
| Chyna |
"My grades are just as good, if not better than theirs, and I seem far less stressed than they are." is what you said, Doug. I'm really sorry but I've heard this argument of not working on Sabbath as roundabout proof to show God is blessing those that 'keep' Sabbath just as the Jews did. If that argument could work, then you should think that not keeping Sabbath is actually where God blesses people, because I earned a 4.45 GPA in Public High School (which I think is much more rigorous than many SDA schools), took AP (Advanced Placement - College Level) Calculus, AP Biology, AP Physics, AP Spanish, AP English I & II, took honors English from freshman year until I entered AP level Junior year, took Honors Model UN (which taught both Social Science and International Current Events), published an article in the Los Angeles Times at the age of 15, was recommended as National Merit Commended Scholar, lettered in Varsity Tennis, won the Scholar Athlete Award for two years, played competitive classical piano, and matriculated to the US News World Report #1 liberal arts school in America: Amherst College and I attended church every single Sunday of the year: the no absences award. So are you going to tell me that since my grades are outstanding as a person who has never observed Sabbath must be due to the fact God is showing His favor on me because I don't "keep" the Sabbath therefore showing those Sabbathkeepers who is really right about Sabbath that He's really on the side of assembling on Sunday because He's blessed me to overflowing? I call the way Adventist keep Sabbath twisted because in no way is the Adventist church following the Sabbath of the Bible. They are following the Sabbath of the SDA culture. Yes, eternally, yes, Sabbath is about the rest we were ALWAYS meant find in Salvation. The Law kept laying burdens on us. But it was meant to show us the wonderful grace of Salvation. How deep in our sins that Christ saved us. There was a post awhile ago that I had explicitly stated that ETERNAL REST is what we have in Salvation. that the very meaning Sabbath was supposed to connote to us, was rest. In Hebrews 4 it says that God assigned a day and He called it "Today" and that we have sabbath-rest! Rejoice because it means that it is knit into the very fabric of our Salvation! And just as we cannot cleanse ourselves any cleaner by blood sacrifices after the Ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, neither can we add restfulness to the Ultimate REST God has given us in our Salvation. Jesus says, "Come unto me, all who are weak, weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Is Jesus talking about giving us more Sabbath's to observe? I don't think so. In our Salvation God has given us TRUE REST. Just as Jesus offered the woman at the well the WATER of ETERNAL LIFE -- what she really needed/wanted. So for the same reason we don't sacrifice doves or lambs is because there is nothing we NEED to do anymore because Jesus has cleansed us completely. And we don't NEED to observe Sabbath anymore because the very thing it was meant to remind man to understand: True Rest, is found in our everlasting peace in the haven of the Salvation Jesus has given us. Many Adventists ask me. Where did Sabbath Go? The New Testament doesn't write of it at all, Paul never calls it a sin in his long lists of sinful things. The apostles don't mention it when they discuss what to teach the Gentiles in Acts 15. Where did it go? It didn't "go" anywhere, it didn't disappear, neither do the qualities of God disappear. It was rest that God wanted to remind the Israelites of, and it is REST that He has given us. Our Salvation in its very definition is a "keeping Sabbath" meaning we have "sabbath" rest every single day 7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Rested from works! :). Most of the SDA culture are caught up in works because they subconsciously or overtly think to maintain their salvation they have to keep the sabbath properly, they have to eat cleanly, live healthily, send their children to Adventist school, read EGW books, get baptised. etc. al. 'k, i'm tired now. Shereen I use bible.crosswalk.com Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
Vi, heehee, my ex-SDA b/f referred to those potlucks. the worst thing was that he would say "when *I* get married I'm going to do X with my wife" it was like he would describe his ideal definition to the supposedly unknown marriage partner, and then look to me to try to jump into the role the he had specifically outlined. I would do the opposite, tentatively, shyly saying, "when we? get married we'll go to X" anyway, ONE of those things was "when *I* have a household, I want us to have lots of people over" and what he was referring to were those Potlucks! No wonder his mom was a control freak, I guess the SDA sabbath does that to women. notice how unfair it goes, ladies? notice how most FAF men haven't really complained about the workload that Sabbath brings? Chyna | ||
| Doug222 |
MaryAnn, I cannot say there is anything in your post that I outright disagreed with. This topic is very fascinating to me right now. It flies in the face of all that I have known (and taught) all my life. I appreciated the way you layed out the reason for your beliefs. I tend to be somewhat analytical, so I like to have things layed out logically. You did this using scripture alone (which is very important). Two points in particular that you made that I agree with is that there is NO support for observing Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath. I noticed that those who advocate for it cannot support it from scripture. I also liked the way you talked about the sin of "unbelief." I beleive this is the root of all sins. It is why we cannot be cleansed by adhering to the commandments. We still have the basic problem of being separated from God until we allow Him to bridge the gap. I also liked you p.s. where you stated that this is not an argument for living like the devil so that grace can abound. I think this is the fear that most SDA's have is that when you say there is no need for the law, then you are giving license to sin. That is not a biblical point of view. However, since we (yes I must still consider myself a part) do not tend to emphasize the ministry of the Holy Spirit (and why you do not usually hear salvation testimonies), we assume that if there is no law there is no order. However, I am coming to understand that the Holy Spirit cannot really begin to give you the new birth experience until the law is moved aside. As long as the law is there, I will continue to attempt to earn salvation through my own efforts. Sorry to drone on and on. I know that what I am saying is probably not new to anyone on the forum. In closing, I'd like to say one more thing about the forum itself. i appreciate the Chrsit like manner in which the discussions are carried out. I've been on other forums where there is considerable flaming and backbiting. Here, there seems to be an acceptance of divergent points of view. There also is an acceptance that people may be at different points in their growth. That is very refreshing. Thanks to all. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker |
Maryann, good job on your Sabbath Bible study! Doug, I agree with what you said above; "I am coming to understand that the Holy Spirit cannot really begin to give you the new birth experience until the law is moved aside." That is precisely my experience. First, I'd like to comment on the Sabbath/Sunday issue. I believe that many Christian churches, not just the Adventist church, get mixed up with law and grace. Many Christians still feel they have to work hard to be Christlike. I teach in an interdenominational Christian school, and the students often journal about "being good" and needing to work on their spiritual experiences, etc. Just yesterday I was grading journals, and one 9th-grade girl asked me how one could be holy. she was struggling with not being holy enough, and she didn't know how to achieve holiness. I wrote back and talked about our souls coming alive and being connected to God by the Holy Spirit, and that we enter a new reality in which we are "alive" instead of "dead", and the Holy Spirit begins to show us what he wants us to do, when he wants us to concentrated on certain things, and how he wants us to do them. I told her about the Holy Spiritn providing the strength and the ability for us to change; it's no longer about US! It's about HIM living in us and transforming us according to his will. My point is this: many Christians do not see that the entire 10 Commandments, not just the fourth, has been superceded by Jesus and his finished work of salvation. We do not need the external law to point out holy living when we have the internal Living Law holding us far more accountable than the 10 ever did! Jesus' revolutionary Sermon on the Mount, according to Oswald Chambers, was not about telling us how we should really be keeping the law. Rather, it was desccribing how we would live under the New Covenant when the Holy Spirit would come to us. The Bible does not declare Sunday to be a holy day, either overtly or by implicaton. The New Testament makes it clear that we are not required to keep any day. The seventh-day Sabbath is the only weekly holy day commanded anywhere in the Bible, and if people are going to proclaim commandment-keeping, they really should be keeping the seventh day. Otherwise, they can let the 10 commandments go and receive the Holy Spirit instead. All of life becomes rewarding, significant, challenging, and ddeply joyful when we begin to live with the Holy Spirit. Your are right about another thing, Doug; the Adventist church does not emphasize the Holy Spirit. I believe that is because they hold the law before them, and as long as they do, they cannot experience the new birth about which Jesus talked to Nicodemus. When the Bible says we are new creations when we are born from above, that is literally true. We become spiritually alive and connected to eternity, to God. Spiritual things begin to make sense. (see 1 Cor. 2) Living by the Spirit makes all the questions about days and foods and behaviors moot; living continually connected to Jesus, alowing him moment-by-moment to direct us, is a new reality. Obedience takes on new importance; instead of its being a demand that we keep the laws, it becomes our commitment to obey the Holy Spirit. It becomes our response of submission to the sovereignty and love of God. I am so grateful that God continually "grows" us. He doesn't bring us to him and then leave us to wallow in our bad habits and temptations. He takes responsibility for our change and growth! Wow! But I have to continually let go of my will and submit. Sometimes that's downright hard, but when I do it, it's always worth it! Praising God for freedom and continual rest and Love, Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
yup you are correct Doug, Sunday was never meant to be another Sabbath because the Sabbath was fulfilled. Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also it is easy to advocate Sunday because assembling on Sundays is a tradition we've inherited since the early church, the churches that the apostles founded. The Lord's day is only mentioned in Revelations. it is quite clear that Sabbath does not equal The Lord's Day. It is reasonable to consider Sunday the Lord's day as it was the meeting day of the early church, as noted in the John MacArthur study. Chyna | ||
| Sherry2 |
May 15, yesterday, marked my year anniversary for making an official break with the SDA church with a letter to the Elders and the Pastor. I can't believe it's been a year already. How amazing! And that was before I got books that Bruce sent me from FAF by Walter Rae, and Dale Ratclaff. How amazing this trip has been. Wow! Congrats to all who have obeyed the call of the Gospel and followed Jesus, the Truth! :) | ||
| Jtree |
Sherry, congratulations. I myself REJOICED over the statement of my spouse, "I'm not going back to Berrien Springs" after 15 years. She too started to obey the call of the Gospel and not only is she following Him, she is "married" to Him. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Tell me Joshua!!! What happened? You know I was praying for your wife. Tell me what happened? She is actually coming to see the Gospel now and the problem that SDAism presents? I am so thrilled! How awesome! Thank you God!! :) Great news, Joshua! | ||
| Jtree |
She quit years ago already, I was reflecting on our history. We have been out of it, for oh gosh, 1983 we/she was involved. It ended at least 1995 or so. So it's been quite a while already. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Well then last I knew you were seperated? I thought that was due to SDAism conflicts...sorry...I misunderstood what was going on. How are you two doing now? I know this may not be something you want to discuss on the forum, so I'll give you my new address...I think you still have my old. Sherryreinbold@home.com. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guyz, Well, I don't have the time to say much at this time but I have been a lot of places this last year. This coming Thur. will the 1 year anniversary of my cancer surgery. Everything still seems to be just fine. Right now, I'm getting the rest of my stuff from Las Vegas along with my Mom's stuff. She is moving about 12 milse from the new place I just got last week. I'm working as of last month. It is VERY nice to get a paycheck!!;-)) The only problem with the work was getting my kids to school. Our new place is a stone's throw from the school!! Work is slim for a few weeks and that gave me the opportunity to do this moving project. God even sent me a friend to help me!! We will head back in the morning to get the last load. In the last 6 weeks, I have been listening to the O.T. on the radio. It has really given me a desire to get into the Bible and learn the interesting things I never knew from the "Bible Stories!" Wow, the stuff that went on with David, Samuel, Eli and all the many other guys in Samuel and Kings is amazing. All the Kings and the splits that went on and so on and so on and on. This next year is one that I am very optimistic about gettting and learning to study the Word. I hope to go to Phoenix next month and introduce a friend of mine that I haven't seen in 33 years to Dale. I asked him today if he has read Dale's book yet, Cultic Docrine, and he said he's read the covers and forward. He is not in a hurry to read something that makes an arguement against everything he has know for 50 years! That is such a common fear! Well, I need to be on the road againt to Las Vegas in about 6 hours, so, I will go and pass out till then:-)) I hope to catch up on some writing soon. You guys hold the fort down! Maryann...DTC=Deeded To Christ |
