| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
So, I have a little sticky situation. I have decided, after a long period of self-study and prayer away from a specific church organization, to begin the search for a home church. (Yes, go ahead: Clap, Praise the Lord, I am just as excited as you would want me to be.) Not that I am certain that this will end up being the one where I will stay, but you must start somewhere. That is not the problem. I have found a church that I would like to try first and have informed my wife about my intentions. Here is the issue: She has decided to go with me. GREAT!!!! I am soooo pleased!!! However, as you probably will agree, that does not mean anything about her ìremoving the veil.î All I am asking is for some warnings about the book that we will study in the Sunday school class that I will attend. The book is Numbers. I need to know if there is any ìAdventistî perspectives specific to passages in Numbers, which I can look out for in order to have a peaceful time studying the word. I do not know if she will chime in at an inappropriate moment to ìpromoteî the Adventist agenda. However, if I can be prepared by knowing anything you can tell me, I can at least ask her to refrain from disturbing the class. To be honest, I have not as thoroughly researched and studied this book. In addition, I have not seen many references to Numbers in Adventist literature. Nevertheless, I am now frantically doing the best I can so that I can be at peace in Godís Word on Sunday. Just so you know. I am trying to contact the teacher and the pastor before Sunday. Oh, and PUH-LEEEEEEASE, pray for me! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Jerry, Just let the Spirit guide. I fear that all your "pre-emmptive efforts" are going to blow up in your face. I am a big believer in boundaries. I think you are trying to control things that are not yours to control. Is there a particular reason why you picked the church that you did? If it is a Bible based church, with a grace orientation, they will be more than able to gently dal with your wife's participation. This is just my humble opinion. I speak from the opposite perspective, of having been a SDA and married to a non-SDA. All my efforts to control the situation definitely had the oppostie effect than what I intended and probably did more harm than good (although in retrospect, that was proably good). Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Point taken. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good point, Doug. I agree. Jerry, I will pray for your wife and for you also. And as Lydell said on another thread in reference to this request, only God knows where the chink is in her Adventist armor. That she is even going with you suggests to me that there is oneóat least, that there is a spot which she might fear is a chink! Whatever the reason for her going with you, God can use it for his glory. As far as Numbers goes, I don't know any particularly SDA interpretations of this book except as it relates to the Mosaic law in general. The whole Christian understanding that the Old Testament is interpreted in light of the New is antithetical to Adventism. But, as Jerry said, relax and leave this in God's hands. You have no idea how He wants to work in this, but He will. Trust your wife to Him. Trust your anxiety and desire for her to know freedom to Him. Let Him fight the battle! Your call is to love her with the love like that of Christ for the church. The Holy Spirit will work through you and through events, and you can trust God for the outcome! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Another point, Jerry, is that for most SDA's the hardest part may not be the study, it is associating with the 'Philistines' (as I've heard them referred to) in these other churches. SDA's teach that these folks in the other churches are confused, often lost and are eager to pass a Sunday law and forced worship. Once she sees that they are just folks who love Christ she may come around. Here''s hoping! In Him, Bill S. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Thank you so much everyone: Doug222, Lydell, Colleen, and Loneviking. Just so we are clear, I knew better at the beginning of this thread than to think this was a break through. My main concern was always just making sure I could focus on Jesus in this experience. Sure, I panicked to some degree. But it was not about "How can I make sure she goes this way or that." I do love her so very much. I ache to see how much her heart and soul has been hurt by her life, because of things related and not related to Adventism. My joy at her going with me was because it is nice to be able to share this with her. Not to convince her of anything, but because I am committed to our relationship and am grateful for whatever togetherness we may be able to share to whatever result. By the way, I have no idea if this church is right for me. I will see when I get there. It has been my experience that you need to see people and experience worship with them to understand where they are and where you can go with them. Talking and reading liturature do not quite do it. More on this next week. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Jerry, I can relate. With my ex-wife (who was a non-SDA), there was nothing more that I wanted than for her to embrace the most important thing in my life (at the time). Unfortunately my enthusiasm worked to my disadvantage. I have a friend now who is a SDA who I have been sharing the good news of the Gospel with and I have to be careful that I'm not trying to be the one doing the convincing. As soon as I start pushing to hard (working in my own strength), I can feel the wall start going up. Its perfectly natural to see things clarly and to want others to see as well. Just remember, it is God that removes the viel not us. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Just thought I would give everyone a little update on what happened on Sunday. I am so glad I discussed this with everyone here. Your cautions were right on the money. God answered our prayers quite nicely. Praise God for his wisdom and patience. Do not get me wrong, there were positive and negative things that happened. Everyone there was VERY gracious. They greeted and assisted us instantly. Not one of them displayed any sense of superiority, or pressure. We did not feel ìstalkedî or ignored. Many of them introduced themselves and expressed their delight at our presence. We talked to the pastor and the organist. Both of them were happy to talk to us. My wife was pleased because, since she is an organist, she made a good contact with the organist and probably has obtained a concert date for herself. The service was pleasant, genuine, and dignified. I felt that, in terms of theology and spirituality, it was a little bit too lightweight for my tastes. However, it was not distastefully lightweight. From there, we went to the adult bible study class where the class was studying Numbers 19 through 21. I was pleased we did not come in at the start of the book. I had not slept well and probably could not have borne the ìso-and-so son of whatís-his-nameî or ìThose that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of . . .î for endless verses. The leader was competent, but sooooooo slow. Oh, sure, I was a ìbad little boy.î I brought in references to Hebrews 3 and 4, and Psalms 95 in reference to Numbers 20:12 with a not so subtle connection between ìnever enter my restî and not entering the Promised Land. In addition, I could not resist pointing out the ìadded for their transgressionsî aspect and ìimpossible to observe perfectlyî object lesson regarding the ceremony of the red heifer and all other statutes and ordinances. There was an appropriate connection made to the crucifixion for chapter 19. Naturally, I heard a disdainful sniff from my wife at a certain time where a reference to Revelations was not to her (Adventist) specifications. We had a pleasant lunch afterwards and only light discussion about the church. Later in the day, she asked if I was going to that church again next Sunday. I said yes, but that I might be looking for another church. I do not take her pleasant question for more than it probably was. My guess is that the experience of ìmingling with the unwashedî did not upset her. One thing people here should know: As a professional organist, she has played for many denominations. Therefore, she is not as likely to be upset with this type of experience as the average Adventist would be. As I said before, this was for me. I was just pleased that she could go with me and not be either upset or disruptive. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jerry, I'm so glad that you both had, overall, a good experience. I'll continue to pray for you both. Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Hey guys! It's been awhile since I've posted cuz my wife and I have been moving into our new apartment in Gainesville, FL. God has truly blessed us with a nice little place to start out as a family. =) I wasn't quite sure what thread I should put this under but in any case I have some news. On the road trip up here my wife started asking me about some things in Galatians. She told me she had started reading it after overhearing a conversation my father and I were having about the law and something we heard from Bob George's broadcast. She said she was blown away by what she was reading in Gal 3 about the law (particularly around v.19 where it says the law was to last until Christ). She said something to the effect of, "Well I'm not one to argue what the Bible says, but this seems to end the feud between us about the 10 commandments being in effect." I was totally blown away; I hadn't said a thing to her about it since our last argument over it and here she was finding it out on her own. God really does answer prayer. Sara went on to say that she felt disappointed because what she read went against the SDA teaching she knew and she now knows they're wrong about that. She admitted she has other issues, which I can safely read into meaning the Sabbath, that she didnt wanna discuss just yet. I'm praying that her reasoning comes to the logical conclusion that if the 10 commandments lasted until Christ then so did the Sabbath. But I'm letting God take care of her study. She does want to study Galatians with me though and learn more. We also discussed the issue of grace and complete forgiveness through Christ. I could really see God getting through to her as we were talking and I could see that through SDA she never was taught God's grace. I'm so excited for what shes learning and what there still is to come. I'm not rushing her (taking the advise given me from the forum). Please pray for her as she continues to study. Joel | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Joel, this is such wonderful news! Of course we'll keep praying for heróand for you. God will help you to know what to say and when to say it. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Praise God Joel, that is wonderful! As you said, you just have to be careful not to run ahead of God. I have a friend who is in Adventism right now. I know in my heart of hearts that she will not be there long. She really loves God, but is very steeped in Adventism (although she has a lot of questions about the doctrines). As soon as I start pushing a little too much, I can see her retreating to the safety of the dogma she has been taught. It is really tempting to forge ahead when you see an opening, but just remember, God's ways are not our ways. He wants her to accept his forgiveness even more than you--if you can believe that. God Bless. Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
WOW, Joel. What an amazing leap for an Adventist to agree that the Ten Commandments are actually part of ìthe lawî as mentioned in Galatians. I seriously doubt that this connection came solely from whatever she heard of your conversation or the speaker. God is surely taking care of this, as you are aware. As you have suggested that you will, sit back, relax, and enjoy watching our Savior at work!! | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
I was really excited as I read a verse this morning, that if Jesus is lifted up, HE will draw all men to Him. That sure does make our "job" a lot easier, huh?! Just focus on lifting up Jesus, and He will do the "drawing." :-) Joel, I will be praying for you and your wife. God Bless, Janet | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Just as an update.. Sara and I had started reading "Classic Christianity" together recently and last night we spent half the night going over several questions that she had about the book and the true nature of the law and the sabbath. She also made some very open statements expressing her wanting to get out of the Adventist church. God has really opened her eyes to the Word and the truth that sets her free. Praise God! Joel | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Wonderful, Joel! You have seen a change that may never happen in my life. AFTER she clearly breaks from the Adventists, it might be nice to introduce her to this forum. It seems likely that this will start to happen soon, though it may last several years in the process. On my side, the story is clearly at a different stage. This Sunday I was sick with a virus and could not attend. My wife actually tried to get me going in the morning, but it just was not going to happen. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wow, both Joel and Jerry! God is at work in both of your wives and in you! I'm praying for you both! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Hey, how about an update from Joel and Jerry about their wives. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
OK. There is not much to report, in terms of spiritual movement. However, as time goes by, I see more and more of the damage this denomination has inflicted on my dear wife. In terms of our marriage, we are doing quite well. I suppose we have come to a sort of ìdonít ask, donít tellî agreement with respect to religion. Sad, but workable for the moment. In case some of you do not remember my situation, I will give a short review. My wife is a life-long second generation Seventh-day Adventist. She was somewhat ìlapsedî when we met about seven years ago. That is to say, she was not attending a specific SDA church at the time. She claimed to be ìnot very concerned about my religious beliefsî and I took her at her word. To this day, she has never tried to maneuver me into the SDA fold in an overt or aggressive manner. However, there have been some subtle attempts to ìshow me the truth.î In terms of ìdamage,î I am reminded of a passage from Hebrews which fits my wife very well:
Of course, we all know that this passage, especially verse nine, is used by Adventists to ìproveî that the Sabbath day still applies. What strikes me as applicable is verse seven. ìagain he sets a certain day, ëToday,í saying through David so long afterward, in words already quoted, ëToday, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.íî What I see is that her heart is very hard, even at the same time that she is a very kind and loving person to me and other people in her life. I frequently hear statements that border on paranoia about things like ìSunday lawsî and other Adventist key beliefs. Everything even slightly negative in this life is yet another sign of the end times. Further, she is extremely defensive whenever she sees the smallest challenge about Adventist beliefs. Yet, she belongs to a congregation that is trying very hard to present itself as ìmainstream evangelical.î I think Lori described it correctly when she described the progression for the external to internal belief structure. You know, ìSaved by Grace alone . . . except . . . Once you do that, more and more requirements surface.î That is all for now. If there is anything else that I can answer, let me know. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jerry, I just want to say that I continue to pray for her and also for you! Thanks for your contributions to this forum. Colleen | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
So Jerry you never got sucked into the church? That is great but I will add you to my prayers also. It is very hard because in your wifes mind you are going to Hell and if she questions she will go too. My poor husband followed along for almost 15 years and was shocked to see me leave the church and the changes in my life. Its funny that I am sure your wife has the same thoughts that I had for all those years if only he could see the truth he went but did not agree with everything. I was the one who was in constant turmoil because we just could not live up to the standands oh those insane standards. I would be gritting my teeth every sabbath when he would talk about things not having to do with God or church or going to his room and watching tv. I just always felt guilt I was not teaching the kids enough etc. Or someone would point out Ellen White said this and your not doing it. It is a wonder half of us are not in a corner sucking our thumbs. Our relationship has soared since I have given up the guilt and fear and the fear of what was to happen at the end. So I really feel for you in your position. God Bless you and your wife | ||
| Marykay (Marykay) |
My husband is a sda, but i am not. He has tried so many times and with many arguements to pursuade me towards his belief. I don't understand all that tho. We were having bible studies up to the last two weeks, but when I told his people from church I didn't believe in the investigative judgement I got up and left the table. I also told them I didn't think we really had much to agree to in the bible. (meaning sabbath, Michael as Jesus, end times, the great prophet White etc.) Needless to say he has decided to shun me that is alright I can deal with it. It is like a dark cloud has left me actually. You see he uses the sabbath only when it serves his purpose. (Today he is out getting turkey permit and preparing for the great hunt tomorrow Sunday) Do the sda people do these things? Are they that much of a hypocrite? Actually maybe it is good. Maybe the Spirit is reaching him. I tell him that he goes to church on Saturday because he has to work for his salvation as all the sda people believe yet.Well thank you all for letting me get this off my chest. AS you can tell I could use a few helpful hints on how to handle this. Pray for us. God Bless. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Marykay, technically, any "secular" activity is not appropriate Sabbath activity. Many Adventists would not get their permit to hunt on Sabbath. (Actually, many Adventists would not hunt, either, although hunting is not a "test of fellowship"! While eating turkey is permissible because it's not one of the unclean meats forbidden in the Mosaic law, many Adventists would not eat any sort of meat.) Many, however, do rationalize all kinds of "secular" activity on Sabbath. The important thing is that they beleive Adventism to be truth. They cannot leave it and worship elsewhere because they believe that they would jeopardize their eternal future. They might be careless about oberserving Sabbath and living by its standards, but they BELIEVE it to be truth--or the closest thing to truth that they know of. Many Advetnists who have "backslidden" or lapsed plan to return to Adventism before they die because they believe they must. They might find its requirements too difficult to observe fully right now, but they fear abandoning it altogether. Adventists generally feel that a person who leaves the church, becomes worldly, and even lives with openly sinful practices is in a better position than one who leaves and joins a "Sunday church". I suspect the reason for this deep conviciton, even though it's not usually openly stated, is that those who become wordly have a better chance of returning eventually than do those who actually meet Jesus, discover the gospel, and embrace their salvation and worship with other believers in another church. I will pray that you will know how to love and respect your husband for Jesus, Marykay. You are in a difficult position. What you did in declaring your disagreement with the distinctive Adventist doctrines was courageous. God will use you to show your husband his love and his freedom as you surrender yourself to be His hands and heart and feet for Him. I will also pray that your husband will be receptive to the Holy Spirit's work in his heart. Colleen | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Jerry,I just saw your post about your wife & you.I wondered how you delt with her and the fact she is sda.Do you have kids?And if you do,or not how do,would you deal with them,like thier beliefs and all,would you let her instill her beliefs on them?Or any of you guys,can put your opinion in on this sucject.As of now,Jerry takes him on sat. and I take him on sunday,really messed up! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Angie, We each have a son. However we were married 7 years ago today. My son has lived with his Episcopalian mother (my ex) and unchurched step father since before we were married. Interestingly, the stepfather's ex was Mormon. (That might mean he had it worse than I do.) Her son was in his twenties when we met. So we did not need to address that issue. I hope others can add their input. If my son had been living with us, there is no way I would allow him to attend an SDA church. He and I have had discussions on the subject and he is very well aware of how I feel about the subject. (He agrees, thank God.) We do not and will not have children together, so there will never that issue anyway. |
