| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I just saw a post from Loneviking, which prompts me to start a new thread. Maybe this is the wrong approach, but I will try it. This topic has been done before, but I want to attack this with a slightly different approach. Several people have mentioned looking for a church in various threads. I thought it would be helpful to discuss the process in one place again. Some people are moving from a bad church experience to (one would hope) a good church experience. Some might have had good experiences. However, they, like me, now need to get back into the group worship scene. Therefore, this is about finding the ìrightî church from your perspective. Conversely, one could talk about finding the ìwrongî church. Importantly, it is a description of your process, NOT how someone else SHOULD do it. THIS IS NOT about getting away from the old (presumably Adventist) church. THIS IS NOT about ìMy church is better than your church.î THIS IS NOT about ìI did it right. You did it wrong.î The form of your response does not matter. You can fill in the blanks: ìI knew I had found the right church for me when _________î or ìI knew this church was wrong for me because _______î You can list pluses and minuses that you saw. You can list dos and doníts that worked for you or blew up in your face. You can describe or identify your church to whatever degree is comfortable. You can give a story of how you found it, or failed to find it with all the pitfalls and triumphs. Tell about essential people or events in your search. Make it short. Make it long. What ever you like. Ready, set, GO! | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Jerry, I won't state the church that I joined. I will say that after attending many I found that the important things to look for are these; 1. Join a church where the Bible is held to be the ONLY, INSPIRED, WRITTEN revealed word of God. A church where it is believed to be inerrent and God's complete revelation to us. 2. Join a church which believes that we are saved by God's grace alone, without "works" or effort on our part. 3. Join a church which holds up Jesus as the ONLY way to salvation. A church which believes and teaches that He is the eternal Son of God and that we are saved ONLY by believing in and placing our complete faith and trust in His gift to us. and 4. Join a church which is serious about the great commission. Which believes that as a believer, it is our one and only job to tell others of our joy in Jesus....and how they can find it for themselves. Avoid the ones that have "rules" to govern all things in life, and explanations for every step of the rest of time. Jesus is our "rule" and the author and finisher of our faith...and He will come in His time and in His way. That's my two cents worth. May your search be as productive to you as mine was to me. In His Grip! <>< Thomas | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Jerry, I was chatting with someone I never met, up in Boston, MASS.(She has never traveled outside of Mass.) She had been sharing some Bible thoughts with me, (back when I was depressed with not going to church and all, and being unsatisfied with SDA teaching)...I asked her how to find a church. She sent me the webisite of a local church. It was the same church that put on the annual drama, "HellHouse", (instead of a haunted house in Oct.), which I had attended 3 years earlier. I had filled out a card wanting to know more about their church, but never pursued it. But ever since that time, a lady would call ever month or so,(from this church) just to see how I was doing. Anyway, to make a long story short, when this friend sent me the church website, I felt it was a confirmation to check it out. I was really impressed with the Pastor who, after services, would do his best to find me and welcome me. The church as a whole is super friendly, and accepting. It is a non denominational church, and focus on the Bible. They made me feel welcome, even when I still had alcohol on my breath. (It has been almost 2 years since God has delivered me from that addiction) Note, I am not saying that to be judgmental, but I am not one who could stop with just a couple drinks...God has done a wonderful work in my life, and I Praise Him. Anyway, as I mentioned in another "thread", I play guitar on the Praise and Worship team, and love it!!! I hope I didnt stray from your desired purpose of this discussion. God Bless, Janet | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
So far, so good. Just looking for what worked (or did not work for anyone who wants to relate a story.) This is for my search, but not exclusively for me. I think anyone can profit from stories of success and failure in finding a church. Success, might give another clue about what could be a way of approaching the search. Failure, might give comfort that, just because it does not work once, does not mean it will never work. Also, failure might provide a clue about what does NOT work. By failure, I mean a story like (completely made up) "So I decided this and that was what I should look for in a church. I found one just like I wanted. However, OOPS, it did not turn out to be a good thing. Now I know . . ." Thanks for the responses Thomas and Janet. Anyone else? | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I like your list Thomas. To it I would add that if the group of people talk about being THE only true church, head immediately for the door. Jerry, when my hubby and I and a friend left the local SDA congregation, we met as a home church for 7 years BIG MISTAKE! I think maybe the first year of that could have been the Lord's idea, just so we could get heavily into the Word and dump a bunch of our SDA baggage. But it got very very old. So when we finally got sick and tired of it, we did an amazing thing, instead of begging God continually with the question, "what in the world should we DO now God?," we actually started listening to His answer. duh We admitted to Him that we just felt too thick headed to get the answer right, that we were sick and tired of our "wilderness experience" (as we had come to call it as a sick private joke) and so asked him for clear direction and plenty of confirmation. Then we went with the first idea that popped into our heads, which was attending a community Bible study. And on the way there each of us prayed silently that if this was not where God wanted us, He would just have someone give us an invitation to the place where He did want us. That night 4 people invited us to the same church. That got our attention. So we visited (on a Wednesday night, because well, there was still that stupid sabbath hold on us). Man, we felt the presence of God so strongly when we walked thru the doors! Then we returned the next Wednesday. The sermon that night was taken from the Song of Solomon. Now that was certainly different from the SDA's! ha And the pastor's invitation that night during ministry time came from one of the verses in that book, "here is she coming out of the wilderness leaning on the arm of her beloved." We took it as a sign of confirmation. And the Lord has repeatedly confirmed that we heard correctly. Maybe it would help folks if we included in this thread some info about the denomination/church that each of us is now a part of. The typical SDA has little idea of what other churches are like. The church we attend is a part of the Vineyard association of churches. The Vineyard churches chose to be an association rather than a denomination to give a bit more autonomy for the local congregations while still providing a framework for accountability (which they stress) and support. The autonomy means that Vineyard churches have much in common, but each congregation will have it's own personality. Vineyard churches hold to all the basics of Christian doctrine that, I believe, we all here agree with. (So should be no need for any of us to have to go thru the list each time.) We place a strong emphasis on the importance of worship. We don't have a "song service". It is a "worship service" in which most of the songs are worded as spoken directly to the Lord rather than about the Lord. We encourage individuals to really open themselves up to God and pour out their praise and worship. Our style is somewhere between the traditional and charismatic ends of the spectrum. We try to learn from both sides while being opposed to the problems at the extreme ends, i.e. the deadness of legalism at one end, or the out of control hype at the other end. We are open to the manifestations of the Spirit, the gifts being used for ministry as the Spirit leads. There's no pressure that every individual must exhibit some particular gift. It's all up to Him. The style is laid back with casual dress, electric guitars and drums (contemporary music), and people sipping coffee during the service. We are intentional about reaching out to the unchurched. Because of that, it means that we get some rather "different" folks in our services. Like the kid (mine) with green hair, the one with the hook in his lip (the pastor's kid), the guy with tattoos all over his arms, or the alcoholic lady smelling heavily of her last one. We try to love folks where they are while encouraging them to take a step forward out of their stuff, then another and another until the Lord has them clean, instead of us scrubbing them down. And because we have these kinds of folks coming to visit our church, we know we have to have a strong sense of humor to cope. My encouragment for folks would be not to put God in a box in this church search thing. Before coming to this church, I would not have thought it would be the style of church He would lead us to, or that I could be comfortable in. Yet, what I have discovered with deep surprise is that this is the way I apparently have always longed to express worship to Him. He knows you better than you know yourself. Absolutely you are going to see things in the churches that you visit that you "don't agree with". Concentrate on noticing if they follow the basic truths of Christianity and are they open and loving to visitors, do they seem supportive of new people as well as the regulars. It just may be that the things you "don't agree with" are simply areas where you need to do some growth and un-learning some adventist mindset...remember you are not exactly one who has your head on completely straight right now. And keep in mind that those things just may not be huge issues with anyone in the church anyway. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
After doing two years of home church, we began to pray that God would guide us where he wanted us to be. The answer came through our son. he was invited to a Saturday evening youth praise service by two of his new friends from school. We took him and decided to sneak into the back and see what he was experiencing. We were SHOCKED, to say the least, to see high school students literally worshiping God. They weren't just standing and half-heartedly singing to a "cool" praise band. Those kids were worshiping. Even the worship team was clearly worshiping. One teen girl on the praise team even knelt as she sang a couple of songs, praying her praise to God. Another thing that just shocked us was that those kids there that evening were not primarily "seeing and being seen", as had always been the case at youth church services in our local SDA church. They were there to worship, and they were not the least bit embarrassed about singing and praising and clapping and even (my goodness!) raising their hands! We visited on Sunday after that, and on our second Sunday we knew we had found a home. God really does let people know when they come home! In the first place, we could feel the presence of God. People actually shed tears during communion (the grown, middle-aged man two seats down from me was wiping his eyes). The music and the sermon spoke directly into our hearts and minds. It was as though God planned everything that happened to confirm our experience. The pastor spoke from Ephesians 2:1-5 and stressed that we were born dead but Christ in his mercy brought us to life and brought us into his family. That felt like autobiographical stuff to me! Twice we sang, "I Will Never Be the Same Again," and when we sang "I can never return; I've closed the door," I literally wept. I knew it was true. I could never go back to Adventism, and now God was confirming that decision and had brought us to a place where we could grow in him. The pastor's clear Bible teaching became the most compelling thing, although the worship through praise music runs an awfully close second. We have litereally been re-learning the Bible. This church holds the Bible as our only authority, God's living word. Ours is an Evangelical Free church, but from Lydell's description above, it functions much like her Vineyard church. It is a denomination, but I'm not sure why it's not called an association. Each congregation is independent. The head offices exist to provide services that individual churches could not fund on their own: an evangelical seminary, a well-organized women's ministry with national training seminars, etc. Individual congregations are NOT obligated to support the head office. Ours, however, votes to send a fixed amount to the head office each year. The only time the national organization would impact a local church is if a local church ran into a discipline or functional problem that they simply could not manage themselves. Then, only upon request by the local board of elders, the national organization would send a representative to help mediate. Oh, by the way, a person does not have to become a member of the denomination to become a member of the congregation. Our pastor was at our church for about seven years before he joined the denomination, and I think much of that had to do with the fact that his wife is the head of the national women's ministry and he participates in the annual meetings. In short, I agree with Thomas's list above. The central, important thing is that Christ is exalted, the Bible respected as God's living word, and the church is alive and growing in Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
The church I attend is similar to those mentioned above, with the emphasis on reaching the unchurched. I have really enjoyed worship from a personal level, instead of just singing to be singing...I enjoy flipping through my Bible each Sunday, following the Pastors verse by verse preaching...All in all, church is very personal now. Janet | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Colleen, As you know, we are also members of the Evangelical Free Church here in Lincoln, Nebraska. The first Sunday we visited First Free, the youth praise band sounds were greeting us as we entered the door. It sounded rather "wild" to us with our formal SDA background. However, in the parking lot, we noticed people carrying their Bibles with them into church--a good sign to us. We were further shocked when the pastor's sermon dealt with the topic of an everlasting, conscious hell. What greatly impressed us was the immense amount of organization (i.e., greeters at every door on both sides, information and ministry booths in the foyer, etc.). We were Providentially guided to just the right Sunday School class known as the Life Track Class. The teacher, a former Lutheran and Baptist, made us feel right at home from the start. We noticed how trusting and intimate the class members were about their problems with each other--even praying for their delinquent children after publicly revealing heartaching details. A professional couple told about their wayward child with many details. Wow! Publicly, Adventists only tell each other that their children are all fine, doing great. We noticed that these people were not judgmental as our perfectionist past dictated. We further noticed how the other people publicly prayed for that child instead of thinking that the parents were also somehow delinquent. When was the last time you heard an SDA parent publicly telling their Sabbath School class members that their child was caught shoplifting two days ago? We soon realized that these people came to Sunday School because they actually needed and trusted each other. Thank God, the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. Sadly, Sylvia and I used to make fun of people that believed what we now do. We greatly treasure our new church family that Adventism unkindly refers to as the "synagogue of Satan." God called us out of Adventism with His own timing. Many people have asked us, since leaving Adventism, "What makes you so different or special from other Adventists that didn't leave their church?" Our only reply is that the Holy Spirit removed the "veil" from our hearts to see the awecome glory of our Substitute and Savior, Jesus Christ. For this reality, we perpetually praise and thank Him. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Hey Jerry, thanks for starting this thread! When I made my comment, I was also thinking about a short list of churches that meet (usually)a list like the one that Thomas 1 posted. I would bet that the average SDA coming out just has no idea what churches/associations/denominations meet those qualifications. So, here is a list of those that I know of that do, and maybe the rest of you can also add others to the list that you know. I would also add that the internet is a great place to look at quite a few churches beliefs and decide if you would even want to put your foot in the door. Anyway, my list would include: 1. Evangelical Free churches 2. Seventh Day Baptist churches---more as a bridge as they are very tolerant of divergent views than SDA's. 3. Southern Baptist churches 4. Church of the Nazarene 5. Church of Christ---the vocal music only congregations are the best bet. 6. Vineyard churches. The above churches are probably the ones most ex-SDA's would feel comfortable in. There are Pentecostal churches that meet the definition and would include..... 1. Assembly of God--- 2. Foursquare churches I had things a little easier than many as I had one parent who was SDA and one who was Church of Christ. In studying my way out of the SDA church what I kept coming up with was that every conclusion on Bible doctrine was matching up with what I knew of the CofC. They have a very clear understanding of the two covenants, including that the Ten Commandments were done away with and replaced with something better. So, I checked out three local CofC congregations and found one that used a lot of contemporary music. They were very friendly, it was a growing church under the leadership of two very dedicated, Godly men. It just felt like coming home is the only way I can put it. And now, just this summer we moved all the way across the country and have found another similar CofC to join using the same criteria.....are they friendly, do they want (or act like they want) new members, do they reach out to their visitors...are they a busy, growing, Bible teaching church? Anyway, I hope the list helps and please remember it is NOT an allinclusive list as there are really good, independent non-denominational churches out there as well others I may have missed.......... Bill S. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I understand that Calvary Chapels are pretty similar to E-Free and Vineyard also. | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
We searched for a year before being invited to a christian church. The first Sunday we were there we where amazed at the openness of the congregation getting up and requesting prayer for there problems. I knew at that point we were definatley interested. As we spent more time we found out that their basic beliefs were Jesus is our Saviour and without Him we are nothing. We have very few "rules" to join, belive that Jesus is God's Son and that you should be baptized and share in communion. They also have standards that they request you commit to, but they are very non-controversial. Don't gossip, read your Bible daily and only have relations with your spouse, support the church as God blesses you and attend regularly. I cannot wait to worship my God every week, now that I understand His great power and ability to forgive. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
As long as we're talking, I would add another point that I believe is very important. Find a church which is "congregational" in structure. That means they answer to no other authority than Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. They may choose to join and support other associations, but that is their choice and not a requirement of a denominational body or "conference". I never realized how important that was until I read the reports of sworn testimony given by the President of the SDA Gen. Conf. comparing the structure of their church to that of the Roman Catholic church, as evidence that the GC has authority to determine if someone should be a member, even against the wishes of a local congregation. In this casek, for the purpose of evading a lawsuit. In His Grip <>< Thomas | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Loneviking, Your list including Church of Christ surprises me. I live in TN where that denomination started and I work with two of them and have 1 neighbor. Your experience must be different from mine. The ones I know are sure that they are the only true church, that baptism is essential to be saved, that one would be lost even if they were on the way to the baptism and died in a wreck, that any musical instrument is a sin in the church, that clapping is not biblical in church, that women are not allowed to even pray in church outloud...I could go on, but this group I know are even a little more legalistic than the SDA's! I hope this is different in the case you are talking about. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Sabra, there is some difference and I know about the very 'old time conservatives' that are around. There are others though that are not quite so legalistic. However, some of what you mention is simply what is in the Bible. In Acts, chap. 2 where Peter is speaking to the crowds on Pentecost and the people ask 'What shall we do to be saved?' The response was 'Repent and be baptized'---that's also part of the great commission that Christ gave to his disciples before He left this earth. So how can you argue with that? The only record we have from the Bible is that salvation does not occur until baptism. Can a person who dies before baptism be saved? That is something we aren't told, and we have to leave that in Gods' hands. As for musical instruments, some will say it is a sin, but what most of the ones' I grew up with say is that this is something that the early church did not do, and they are following the practices of the New Testament church. If you go back and read the early church fathers there are statements that the music was vocal only. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that instruments were used in churches and folks like Martin Luther were very adamant to keep them out. It all goes back to whether you see the Bible as inerrant--and what is in there (and what isn't) is there because God planned it that way. It seems to me that God set up the New Testament church just about as opposite to the Jewish system as you can get. Instead of a temple--there was no specific place to worship. Instead of a Sabbath to rest on there is the daily rest in Christ. Instead of specific dietary practices--you can eat whatever you want. Instead of the pomp and display (which included a lot of instruments) of the Jewish temple, the early church only used their voice which God had given to them. I could go on but I hope you get the idea. As for clapping---many churches (again, the CofC is congregational) don't have a problem with that. Many also believe that there are other Christians in other churches. As for women, again, there is clear instruction in Timothy and Titus as to the role of women. That instruction precludes women from taking a leading role in the worship service and also from teaching except for children. Again, if you believe the Bible to be inerrant, it's pretty hard to argue with what the Word clearly says. One caution is that there is a group called the 'Boston Movement Church of Christ' and they are definitely a cult. They have many of the teachings, but they abuse them by demanding that members turn over their money and possessions to them and live under the authority of their leaders. They are very active on college campuses throughout the south and midwest and have congregations in these areas---so be careful of that. Anyway, I hope this clarifies things somewhat! Bill S. | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Loneviking, If you say that one must be bapitzed to be saved tell me did the thief on the cross come down and run to the river before he died? Jesus promised him he would be with Him in paradise. That indicates to me he was saved. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Baptism in actual water is only symbolic of the true Baptism. We are to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. The ceremony is a act of agreement to allow the true baptism to occur. So the thief, did not need to "run to a river" so long as Jesus recognized his readiness for paradise. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Bill, isn't the Bible silent about the early Christians sitting on chairs or benches also? Is it also silent on the use of hymnals? How about the use of pulpits? Or carpet on the floor for that matter? If there was no specific place to worship in the New Testament, then according to what you are saying, the Church of Christ is wrong to have church buildings. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Well, it looks like I've gotten a spirited response to my last message! Violet, the problem with your example of the thief on the cross is that the thief was still under the law. Christ had not died yet, the Christian church had not been instituted yet nor had baptism as a command yet been given. On what basis was the thief saved? We really aren't told! We can guess that it was his faith, but Scripture really doesn't tell us. Matt. 27:52, 53 tells us that there were a number of other people whose graves were opened by the massive earthquake on that Friday that Christ died. After Christ rose, these people were resurrected and 'appeared unto many'. What was the basis for selecting who was resurrected? Who were these people? We aren't told, but we do know that they as well as the thief were under the Old law and yet, like Moses and Elijah were able to physically go to heaven. That in no way negates the clear commands given to the New Testament church to baptize. We are living under a new dispensation, a new covenant and belief (which is what faith is) just isn't going to cut it. James 2:19 says that the devils themselves believe and tremble---but they aren't saved. Salvation requires something more, and that is baptism. Jerry---scripture disagrees with your answer. Acts 2:38 (the setting is on the day of Pentecost when the church was born) finds Peter saying to the crowd that in order to be saved they must: a. Repent b. Be baptized---and not in just any name BUT c. In the name of Jesus Christ--and for a specific reason... d. For the remission of sins---and THEN e. they would receive the Holy Ghost. There is only one instance of the Holy Ghost coming down and 'filling' people before they were baptized and that is recorded in Acts. 10: 44-48. In that instance Peter was again present, and he immedietly commanded them to be baptized saying 'can any man forbid water'....so we know that they were baptized with water and NOT just the spirit. Baptism is indeed symbolic, but it also for 'repentence and remission of sins'...and you can also see this by what Christ said after his resurrection in Luke 24:47 'And that repentence and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem'. The Holy Spirit is very important, but baptism needs to come first...... Bill S. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Oh boy! | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Lydell, you've raised a good question and that is 'how far do we take the example and how do we apply it today?'. The CofC tries to take those examples that were consistenly practiced by the New Testament church and use those. Let me give you two examples of how this works. Look at Acts 2:42-47...where the early church's daily life is described. They 'continued steadfastly in the apostles'doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers'. If you study out other examples of the life of the early church, you see these same principles being followed over and over again. So, these practices are consistent and are something to be followed. However, it is recorded in verse 46, that the early church 'continued daily in the temple and breaking bread from house to house'. Look up those instances where the early church was found to be worshipping. The Jewish temple (which was destroyed and we have no command to build temples), house to house, the lady Dorcas and that church worshipped by a river bank, another group worshipped in a house over a synagogue....no consistency. That's in keeping with various texts such as what Christ said in that 'one day they will worship me in Spirit and in truth'....in a reference to the destruction of the Jewish temple. So here, there is no consistency and we can worship where ever we want as there is no sacred ground (such as the Jewish temple of old). As to vocal music, 'singing' is mentioned in the following New Testament verses: James 5:13 Romans 15:9 1 Cor. 14:15 This is not an inclusive list but enough to get you started if you want to study. There was never any instruments mentioned, and that is again the consistency that you would want to look for. Then, if you go to the writings of the early church fathers again you find that they record only the use of vocal music. That indicates to me that there were reasons for the use of only vocal music, and that the consistency of the New Testament record is no accident.......... In any case, I wouldn't term it a 'sin' as we don't have a clear cut command. I would term using instruments in a church service as an 'unwise choice' as God seems to have laid out a pretty clear plan from which the early church prospered and grew, and we can as well if we follow the plan. Clear as mud? Bill S. |
