| Author | Message | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
I would like to hear some discussion about how to know when the Holy Spirit is speaking to us verses when it is our own thoughts or ideas. I have been earnestly seeking the Holy Spirit's leading in finding the right work that is exactly what God wants for me to be doing. I am at a crossroads now in my employment and am trully seeking God's leading. I am one of these anylitical people who annalyzes things so carefully but I keep wondering if a certain job I may be considering, is my own desires or trully God's will. I want the remaining years of my working life to be productive and doing exactly what God wants me to be doing. How do you know a certain thought is from the Holy Spirit and not your own heart? If God has a certain job for me to do, how can I expect to find it and to know this is it? I have been away from pastoring for 3 years since leaving Adventism and in those 3 years have made some huge mistakes and lost a bundle of $. I realize now that money was very high on my priority list. AT this point, money is no longer such a major desire though I need to earn a living. I just want to find the work that is what God wants for me. I will look forward to hearing your comments. I also ask for your prayers that I will know God's leading. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
The first point, and one you are sure to already realize, is that whatever He tells you will agree with the Bible, of course. That is seemingly hard to apply sometimes in daily life. And I think you have already realized that there is a limit to analyzing the question. You can make yourself pretty crazy thinking about something too much! I believe one of the most crucial points in hearing the Holy Spirit is that we have to STOP praying and STOP analyzing and just spend time worshipping and shut up and listen. I just think that far too often we are like the little kid who is so involved in dancing around shrieking and whining that he can't hear the parent talking to him, ya know? I think you have to take it to God and lay it before Him and be willing to say, "God I will accept your answer and be joyful no matter what your answer may be." Then spending time in hearfelt, deep worship is absolutely essential before we can begin to listen. You aren't going to get any answers without first worshipping. It takes some concentrated effort at getting into worship and putting our eyes and our thoughts on Him, who He is, the God who deeply loves us, the one who has never been unconcerned with our lives, before we are in a mindset where we can even be capable of listening. It takes our minds off ourselves, off the enormity of the decision, and puts the attention back on Him. AFTER doing that, AFTER you have given it time, then there is nothing wrong, I think, with stepping out and pursuing something that you feel may be His prompting. Ask Him to quickly close the doors you shouldn't be walking thru. And ask Him to give you a settledness in your spirit when you are on the right path, and a growing churning turmoil when you are turning the wrong way. It just seems to me that once we have taken just the smallest of steps in the direction in which He has been prodding us, that we get this "knowing" that we are moving the right way. We likely don't see a clear light in front of us, likely don't have all the pieces in place, don't have all the answers or can even imagine exactly how this will work. But still there is just a bit of calm there that wasn't there before. We had a speaker at our church a week ago who was talking about this very thing. She felt called to leave her job and do missions work in Mexico. It seemed really absurd, but the feeling just kept growing until she could no longer ignore it, she said. So she stepped out and did the thing that was before her that seemed what God had in mind. (that was to tell some people she would meet them in a particular spot the next week....He prompted her that there would be a large number of children show up, even tho she had only told 3 folks...even spoke to her in a dream. Yet she only took a literal handful of materials...and over 60 children showed up.) She told us that all along the way He has told her only that one more thing to do next. And she has had to follow that way. Eventually He told her to put up a church building. This is in one of the poorest sections of Mexico. Their monthly offerings amounted to something like $10. So that was an absurd idea. She fought it, then finally complained to the Lord that all she had was 4 bags of cement. His reply was to "use what you have." So, she got some of the people together and "poured the slab for the foundation of the church" it was a v-e-r-y small slab and she reports feeling like a complete fool even while having a peace that she was supposed to be doing this. The following weekend she got a phone call from a church in Michigan. She'd never met any of the people. It seems they were doing some missions work in Mexico and had had more of their members come on the trip than they had anticipated. They didn't have anything for them to do, could she use them? She says she took a very large breath and told them that she was "building a church", but really didn't have any materials or know how to proceed. Turns out that the group had brought extra money and "just happend" to have two building contractors with them as part of the "extras" who had come along. Suddenly other money showed up too. Within 10 days she had a church building. Her encouragement was that when we are uncertain, we have to step out in faith and do the next thing that it appears He is laying before us. If we are wrong, we are going to hit massive roadblocks and feel a constant churning that something is wrong. None of us like to start something, realize it is wrong, and then have to start over in a new direction. But there really isn't any way to get to recognize His voice except to make some mistakes along the way. I was struck by a thought when reading your post that your past experience is a huge stumbling block for you right now in following. You've done it the wrong way. You've followed the wrong lead and ended up in a ditch. Likely you can look back now and realize that it was you who had the ideas, not God. But, you know Clay, I think one thing you need to keep in mind is that you are now in a different place. You've learned more. Likely the Lord has done some tweaking on your desires and thoughts. And God is even more interested now in you getting moving in the right direction than you are. It's not so much a matter of learning to listen and discern His voice as it is a matter of learning to trust, perhaps. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Through my years of living I have come to realize that I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have learned to follow God'd lead one very small step at a time, without worrying about the direction of destination of the journey. My constant prayer is "Father, I am not to bright so when you want me to do something, make it so plain that even I will be able to see what your will is." The walk has been very painful and the health problems have led close to the edge of the river so many times, but looking back I can say He has never left me and His way has always been best! Some day He will lead me to the rest of the journey and I will be home with Him at last. In His Grip <>< Thomas | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Lydell, You are so right. Worship is the key! It seemed like such a strange thing to me. Did we ever "worship" as Adventists? I don't ever remember just telling God how wonderful and worthy and precious He is. The only sacrifice He asks for is the sacrifice of Praise! It opens so many doors and defeats so many problems. It is the most amazing thing I have found since leaving Adventism. I have mentioned that I've had a hard time knowing what to do with my husband working and living in Chattanooga and us here. I have a good job and a home and a wondeful church. I just couldn't imagine leaving. Well, God has been dealing with me a lot about submission and letting my husband be the head of the family. Ludicrous to me sense my husband is not the manager of money or much of a leader. . On the way to work the other day I was listening to the radio and Joe Stohl was talking about self reliancy and how it is not of God and God does not want us self relient, independent, so on. He also mentioned that the place in which a christian works should be a place of integrity and honoring to God, unfortunately my boss is less than honorable. I have the big problem with self suffiency and I think it's time I took a break and let somebody else take charge--perhaps the head of the family--??? Joyce also said at her meeting in Atlanta that if you're always popping your neck, turning your head from side to side...(which I was doing at the PRECISE moment she said it--and always do) God is telling you to get rid of the stress in your life. So, pondering these things and the fact that Perry Stone was talking about placement in your life and making decisions and God's will in your life, He said, "Have you ever told God that you wanted to do His will?" (I said, God You know I want to do your will, just let me know what it is and you have to slap me in the head, because I have to know it's You) then he said (Perry) "It's time you stopped worrying about making the right decision and just trust in God, it's time to make a move, God has another place for you, other people for you to meet to fulfill His plan in your life, so just GO!" (This sounds all too crazy huh?) Well, I said, God if you want me to move, I need a 4 bdrm house because Ashlyn needs her own room and I'd like to live in the country. Kayla says she wont move unless the house has stairs  . OK, Ricky called Wednesday. He found a 5 bedroom house, 3 acres, in the country, 2 1/2 bth, 2 story, completely remodeled. We went and looked at it today and it's beautiful! I can't imagine living in such a BIG house! The lanlord is a preacher and his wife said 8 or 10 people had looked at the house but she felt like Ricky should have it. WOW!! So, looks like we're moving to GA. Close to Chattanooga, 15 min from Ricky's job. They said we can rent or buy. It's just a little more than our mortgage here. So I put our house in the paper for rent or sale. Pray that it sells! | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Fantastic news Sabra! I know God will bless your family. It cannot be good for a family to live apart so much! And I'm excited you'll be much closer to me! You know something I've learned about hearing the Holy Spirit and knowing God's will, sometimes if I'm unsure but step forward in faith, like Lydell said, God will open & close doors, and I am certain that if we make a decision that wasn't His plan for us, but did it in faith, He will work things for our good and "fix" it for us. Love you guys! Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, thank you for telling your story. What wonderful news! I've been continuing to pray for you and your husband, and I'll keep doing so! Clay, I agree wholeheartedly with Lydell and Thomas above. Knowing God's will has always been one small step at a time for us. When you're praying to know his will, he really does open and shut doors. It's just so necessary to continually surrender to Jesus and ask Him to fill you with his Spirit and love. Of course, His Spirit is always in us, but even Jesus said the Father delights to give the Holy Spirit to those that ask. There is so much depth of living in the Spirit that so many of us miss much of the time because we become caught up trying to DO a holy life! And praise and worship really is a big part of knowing God and perceiving his heart for us. I can't explain how it all worksóit's a gift from God. Colleen | ||
| Richardjr (Richardjr) |
Clay, Our experience has been the same and I have asked many of the same questions. What were your thoughts and feelings when you felt a call to be a pastor? Why do you feel God no longer wanted you to be a pastor? Was it because you were a Seventh day Adventist pastor or did He not want you to be a pastor of any church? What kind of prompting or event would it take for you to feel you should be a pastor again? These are some of the questions I have asked myself? I have had a few people mention to me that I should be a pastor again, but since the first time around was so traumatic I certainly, like you, want to be sure it is God's will. I have followed the traditional checks and balances that the Christian church in its 2000 years of wisdom has given us regarding the will of God. After leaving the Adventist pastorate three years ago I work for a manufacturing company. At work each day I ask God to reveal His will for me and I let Him know I am willing to do anything He wants me to which in a sense has resulted in some big lessons in humililty. I am able to minister to people at my job I would not be able to if I was a pastor. I have often thought that maybe my being a pastor was more out of selfish motivations than out of a calling of God. That does not mean that I have closed the door to future opportunities but i want to make sure that I recognize my mixed motives for doing anything. I could be all wet. Please feel welcome to critique my response. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra, how sweet, how precious! Thanks for sharing that with us. If we lived close by, I'd come help you pack your bags. Now you know, if it is needed for the driving distance involved, the Lord ALSO has a new church home waiting for you there as well. Country living is fun, so much to discover. Funny that our service today was pretty much on this topic too. The pastor had made the observation that, when the Lord is prodding us to move in a certain direction, He will generally speak to us thru multiple avenues. Songs on the radio, sermons, scriptures, overheard scraps of conversation, etc. etc. He just seems to keep chipping away at us until we get the message. The Lord gave me a word for our church this morning as I was praying for the service. Since it fits with the conversation here, I decided to share it here too. It is that some of us are suffering with spiritual ADHD. The kid who has attention deficit problems is too easily distracted by the sights and sounds around him, by the jumble of thoughts in his own head, and won't and can't sit still. We have to let Him heal the attention deficit problem before we can sit and really listen to what our Teacher has to say. | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
I have really appreciated the comments from everyone in this matter of knowing God's will in our life. Lydell, the story you shared re the women in Mexico is very powerful and touching. Yes I have told the Lord I am willing to do whatever he wants me to be doing, even if that means driving truck or doing janitor work.....and yes I suppose I do spend to much time asking for direction and I need to leave it with God and trust he will lead me. This is the first time in my life that this has been such a major thing in knowing what God wanted of me. I have done many things in my life and each time I have felt God was leading. I realize the last 3 years have taught me some very important lessons, though very hard and expensive lessons. I just don't want to repeat those mistakes again. Through those last experiences God has taken the $ from my major focus and for that I am very grateful. I have a passion in my heart for helping others experience the freedom in Christ that my wife and I have come to appreciate so much. I have a passion for helping other SDA's who are questioning, to move forward in their faith journey with God and not to be afraid to walk forward, regardless of what that may mean. I also have a passion for helping the unchurched find the joy of salvation. Yes Richard I have thought about planting a church, as my heart is in pastoring, but I'm not sure that is what God wants for me, nor if I have the energy to do that. Having said that, I realize God will empower those he calls to do what he calls them to do. I have no grandeous ideas of pastoring nor am I wanting to be in any limelight. What I have been lead to understand regarding the New covenant has made such an impact on me and I am passionate about helping others understand this beautiful truth. Experiencing a sabbath-like rest 7/24 is such a blessing and joy. I'm like a beggar who has found an encredable feast and wants to share it with my fellow beggars. As I look back, I have realized God has put people in my life that have really encouraged me on my spiritual journey to where I am tody. I am very grateful for people like, Richard Fredericks of Damascus Road Church, and Steve Daily for challenging my thinking and helping me on the journey. I had invited them to come and do a weekend at my church several years ago. I have allways been one to think "outside the box" and they encouraged that so much. I am also grateful for Dale Ratzlaff and his books. There is no question that God has been leading me on this journey. Richard you asked what kind of prompting or event it would take for me to want to pastor again. I would say in the last 6 months it has been a strong desire. I think about it almost daily. If I were to pastor again, the church would probably be a very non-traditional church, "come as you are kind of church", where people could be very real, and where people would be anxious to open their Bibles and discover what God wanted to say to them that day. The praise and worship time would be as important as the message, and people would be free to express worship and experience God's prescence as they were led to. Sorry I got carried away in thinking about it. God spoke to me in a very powerful way when I first felt called to ministry 20 years ago and He also spoke in a very powerful way when I felt a call to the mission field of Africa 24 years ago. I could not mistake his calling. It was like a 'burning bush' experience. Stepping away from the pastoral ministry within Adventism was also an experience that I felt very much at peace about. It was "The right thing to do". NO reqrets at all. It was a liberating and freeing experience. So, I am today longing to hear God speak again as clearly as before and I know he will. Perhaps you are right, I need to be quiet and listen. Thanks for that advice Richard. My wife has been very involved with a prison ministry to 'lifers' ,since her brother was brutally murdered 3 years ago. It has changed her life in so many ways. By the way, a lifer up here in Canada is one who has committed murder. She speaks to them in prison and I sing. She came back today from attending a "Restorative Justice" conference. On the way from the airport, she told me she had met a prison Chaplin who we had worked with in our city before he was moved to another province. He suggested to her that he felt that I should consider starting a church in the inner-city for those released from prison, as they do not fit in to the regular churches easily. He suggested it several times during the conference. What a leap of faith that would take. Wow! I have told the Lord that I want to be doing something that would require me to walk by faith for it to succeed. I really mean that but I also tremble a little at the thought. A church for murderers.Wow! That would have to be a "Grace Place" kind of church. It is NOT beyond a possibility. Thanks all for your comments. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thank you all for your comments and encouragement. This is a little scary to me! Clay, that sounds like a very worthwhile thing to do! So many times churches do leave the undesirable out. It's a sad fact and I know Jesus is not pleased by it. I will pray with you that God will open doors and make clear His plan for you. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Clay, have you ever attended a Vineyard church? It sounded like you were describing our church. It is a place where the unusual folks come, the folks who haven't yet left drugs, those who are just starting their journey, the woman who was obviously quit tipsy, the guy with the tattoo of the naked woman on his arm (hey, God washed the inside clean and we figure He'll move on that problem in his time!), the kid with blue hair, the kid with numerous piercings, those who have never been in church, and those who have been totally turned off by "church people". All are welcomed and loved. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Clay,wat an exciting idea! If this is God's will for you, he will confirm it through various means, as Lydell mentioned above. I've often had comments or suggestions or confirmations of ideas from books or sermons right at the timeI was pondering those ideas in my own heart and head. Perhaps the way I usually sense God's direction when He's leading me to do something is that "settled" feeling inside. That's REALLY subjective, I know--I can't actually explain it. But it's a sense that God is in it; my husband often has a similar, affirming sense or at least an affirming response to me without my eliciting it. I'm convinced that each of us has a somewhate different means of "hearing" God--we're all made and wired differently, and the Holy Spirit knows how to make His voice known to us. Lest all of this sound self-serving, however, God never leads us in a way that contradicts his teaching in the Bible, and he never leads us in a way that exalts or puffs us up. When God leads, I, at least, always have a sense of the circumstances being about His will, not about me. Clay, I will pray that you'll know God's will, and that you will have confirmation from Him that is unmistakable to you. Richardjr, I'll pray the same for you. In Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Richardjr (Richardjr) |
Clay and Colleen, Thanks for your insights and input. Like the rest of us I am seeking God's will. Today, it has been frustrating, because the business I work for is having problems which means shorter hours for me. My immediate reaction is to be anxious and to start doubting God's care for me. I know that is not good, but I just can't seem to help it. Just when it seems I have made a little progress my belief takes a curve. ALL this while trying to discover God's will. As somebody said, maybe the best thing to do is to worship and praise God. | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Richard, I very much understand the struggle to walk by faith. I am about to be laid off my job as business is very slow to non-existant at this time of year in Canada. Oh, by the way I am currently working in the motorcycle industry in sales and service. Being without a job has been such a humbling experience for me. In 40 years of employment, I have never been without work until the last 3 years. I now have a real empathy for those who are unemployed which I certainly did not have before. One day I feel very confident that God will lead me to another job and after 10 or so resumes sent out, I can very quickly feel overwhelmed with discouragement. When I am living in the 'flesh' I am thinking , "I've got 2 college degrees and I'm applying for THIS kind of a job that requires only highschool?" Then I spend time in prayer and realize its all about learning humility. Its part of the training course God has me enrolled in. I just pray that I will pass. I trully believe that walking by faith is the most exciting journey one can ever experience and often means not having everything figured out as we would like to have it and just living one day at a time trusting our Lord who knows about all our needs and maybe just wanting to do some refining to prepare us for our next assignment. Richard, I would say I have learned much more about walking by faith in the 3 years since leaving pastoral ministry than in all the 14 years I was in ministry. Job security was great within the denominational employment. But now!!! there is NONE. Yes let's just worship and praise our God. He is in control. Blessing's to you brother. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
My prayers for both of you continue, Clay and Richardjr. Colleen | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Thank you Colleen. I do very much appreciate your prayer for Richard and me. I went to the local Christian Bookstore the other day and as always, I pray that God will direct me to find a book that speaks to my need at the time and He always does. As I was walking slowly down the "Spiritual Growth" isle , the title of a book jumped out at me so powerfully. The book is titled "If you want to walk on water you've go to get out of the boat" and its by John Ortberg, whom I have heard speak at Willow Creek. I know it was the book for me. I can't tell you how this book is speaking to my heart. I recognize that because of my deep financial losses and failures in the past 2 years, I am very fearful of taking risks. I tend to want to opt for the safe path with no risk and yet deep in my heart I long to be walking by faith in my God in every area of my life. I realize in my past failures, I had been drawn into a desire for $$$ and just plain old greed and love of money and things money would buy. That is no longer a desire for me at all. God has taken away that desire just like he takes away an alcoholic's craving for alcohol. Yes I am away that in my flesh I still have that potential to $. I now truly desire to do only His will. Ortberg brings out the point that before Peter stepped out of the boat, He asked Jesus to call him(Peter) to come to him. In other words, he wanted to be sure this was Jesus calling him to come and if it was Jesus then he felt safe to step over the boat. I guess I am wanting to be sure this time, of God's call for me before I care to risk stepping out of the boat. I am patiently or maybe not-so-patiently waiting and listening for God's call since I am at a crossroads just now. One direction is the easy, safe way that I can do without God's help. One other way , requires some faith in God but is still rather safe and secure. The third way requires that I step out of the boat and would require the utmost faith in God. I want to say I am willing to make that step as long as I am sure God is calling me to come. Ortberg suggests a number of points regarding those who "walk on water" and then expounds on each point. Of course his point is that the boat we are in may be very different for each person, but the call for each one is a call that requires the utmost faith in the one who calls us. I want to share the points for your benefit, that he thinks are characteristics of "water walkers". l. Water-walkers recognize God's presence 2. Water-walkers discern between faith and foolishness 3. Water-walkers get out of the boat 4. Water-walkers expect problems 5. Water-walkers accept fear as the price of growth 6. Water-walkers master failure management 7. Water-walkers see failure as an opportunity to grow 8. Water-walkers learn to wait on the Lord 9. Water-walking brings a deeper connection with God. Perhaps these points will give some a thirst to get the book. Really in this story, the real failures were the 11 men who played it safe and remained in the boat. I don't want to be a person who takes the safe, easy way, because of my lack of faith. Richard I would recommend this book to you. Its powerful. Blessings to all. | ||
| Richardjr (Richardjr) |
Clay, Good hearing from you. I plan to read Ortberg's book. I do have one of his books which I have read. It was a very good book. I can't remember the title because we gave it away along with many of our other books when we moved to our present location. It's interesting to note that the apostle Paul was a tentmaker. Maybe we are to have this other form of employment for a while or for the rest of our lives. Either way we are still Christians bearing witness of Him and if He so desires He can call us off the bench into full time pastoral ministry. Like you I enjoyed the employment security that our previous positions gave. Over the last three years I have learned a little more about patience and what really are the most important things on this earth. Hang in there, Clay, God has a plan for us. I believe we will see it a little more clearly each day, slowly but surely. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Richard jr and Clay.... Don't despair of getting back into ministry. Remember Canright? After leaving SDA'ism he built up two thriving Baptist churches and was honored by the Baptists as one of the finest ministers and Christians ever. So, there is life and ministry after the SDA church. The question is---are you doing anything other than listening? Are you attending a local church and asking if they need help? Or if they know of a small struggling church nearby that might need help? You'd be surprised at how often a pastor or the elders know of a situation like that and just haven't told anybody! It's amazing what you find out when you start asking. I'd say both of you have been out of the SDA church long enough to have your new faith well grounded, and it sure seems like it's time to move on to new and better things...... Bill S. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Speaking of hearing the Holy Spirit speaking.... It has been one unusual week in my life. I've just moved back to So-Cal after being gone to Ohio for seven years. The church I'm attending threw me a few surprises this week. The church has a school that my daughter goes too and one of her friends from there (I found out) is vegetarian. It turns out that her family are former SDA's, and that this church I attend has other formers as well. They also get frequent visitors from Loma Linda---some of whom are apparently SDA! I also found out that my landlord and his wife are also former SDA's and go to the E.V. Free church in Redlands. At this point I'm puzzled and not sure what to make of all of this. I just find it interesting that all of a sudden I'm finding all of these formers around! Bill s. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
You are in an area that I have heard has a LOT of SDA/ex-SDA presence. My wife lived near there some time ago and knows many people there. You just picked the right place. . . . or maybe . . . You were sent! In the Holy Spirit, Jerry | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
North America supposedly has as many or more former SDAs as current SDAs. I personally know dozens of people that haven't been to an Adventist church in many, many years, but they are still on the books as members. In some SDA churches, sometimes not even the dead are removed from the membership roster (e.g., Dakota Conference). Truly, this gives them a highly inflated membership total to brag about. The percentage of faithful tithers is rapidly decreasing as well. It is not in best interest of Adventists to keep accurate, up-to-date membership records. The numbers game is highly promoted to pastors and evangelists. No pastor wants to radically clean up the membership records because it would make him look bad to the Conference officials. For example, two of my children are still technically SDAs while they attend a different church (one daughter is even an active member of another church while not bothering to have her name removed from SDA membership records. The pastors receive a monthly newsletter tally from their ministerial department as to each worker's baptisms, apostacies, etc. For example, if a Conference has 30 pastors, each one is listed in the order of their baptismal growth. No pastor wants to be number 30 on this list (certainly not for very long at least). While serving as a student literature evangelist in the North Dakota Conference in the mid-1960s, I well remember when a farm family I canvassed informed me that they could not buy my books because they were Seventh-day Adventists (smile). There are many SDAs that rarely attend church, but they still claim to be members. They don't even know what Adventist books look like or the names of their publishing houses. Many cultural Adventists know very little about their church--especially in the area of doctrine. Some elderly SDAs told me recently that they haven't studied the investigative judgment since the 1950s when they were in academy Bible classes. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Richardjr (Richardjr) |
Thanks Loneviking for your words of hope and the suggestions you shared. I am attending a local church and looking for ways to help in that church. I believe I need to become a little more pro-active since I tend to be a little introverted. Thanks again for the suggestions. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
So true, Dennis. The amazing thing is that former Adventists even attend other Christian churches after they leave. If they do, I'm convinced they really are looking for Jesus in their lives. As of 1999, we saw a statistic that said only 2% of former Adventists ever attend another Christian church. Many formers know something's wrong, but they don't know how to solve the problem of the law in their lives. The fact that you have so many formers in your church, Bill, suggests to me that you may actually have a "mission field" as well! They've made a huge step by worshiping on Sunday. They may, however, still need some additional understanding about the lawóespecially if those incidences of vegetarianism are hangovers of bondage to "healthy living." I have a close relative who left Adventism and went to church on Sunday for many years before really understanding that she wasn't sinning by not keeping Sabbath. Adventism didn't work for her, but the Sunday thing caused her guilt for over ten years before she finally read Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Crisis" and understood the new covenant. God is calling his people to himself. I think we're going to see increasing numbers of people leaving. And you're right, Dennis--the church doesn't remove names easily. Even though we wrote a letter of resignation three years ago, the Union paper still comes to us. That means that somewhere upstream we still haven't been removed. Praising God for his timing and his planó Colleen | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Yes, thanks Loveviking for your words. My wife and I attend many different churches, and are hoping to find the one we feel is right for us. Yes I do need to take a more proactive role in finding a church to pastor. Like Richard, I am not a type A person so it is not real easy. Colleen, I know of many SDA's who are very disgruntled with the church, but the Sabbath thing is a huge hurdle for them. Many times they are at a point in their spiritual life where they have no desire to study the bible so they just stop attending. The poison of legalism has made them numb to spiritual things. When I meet these kind of people I can't help but feel rightous indignation against the system and teachings,that does that to people. I am reminded of the strong words that Jesus had against the Pharasies regarding their evangelism. We can only come along side these people and gently love them and show them that there is a better way. I know a person who asked for their names to be removed from the church books and they were refused two times and it was only when the person threatened legal action that they were removed. I am sure there are thousands of ex-SDA's who could care less if their names are still on the books as long as they are not bothered with literature or requests for money. We can pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them back to a renewed interest in spiritual matters and when that happens, they will find the right people to walk with them into the glorious New C ovenant experience. One thing for sure, God has not forgotten them. They are heavy on his heart. The main SDA church in this city, is working very hard to bring their members back into legalism. They just had a seminar by the professor from Andrews who wrote on "the Sabbath" and "Wine" etc. and graduated from the Jesuit University in Rome ( you know who I mean I think), and NOW they they are going to have a seminar on "Jewelry". I just feel sorry for the people who will be sucked into that kind of bondage. They end up majoring in minors. What a joy to walk free of that and just rest in Jesus every day. Praise God for the gospel of "Grace". Blessings to you all. | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hello all, I wasn't sure where to put this, so found this thread to be the best course since it's talking about the Holy Spirit. Here is just a snipet of something Martin Luther says in one of his treatise that I found to be most comforting and hope that it will also comfort others. He's teaching out of Galatians but refers to Romans as well in this discourse. And I had never thought about the Holy Spirit interceding with groanings in behalf of Moses as he stands between the Red Sea and Pharaohs army. How marvelous this is! The entire reading is encouraging for me. "VERSE 6. Crying, Abba, Father. Paul might have written, "God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, calling Abba, Father." Instead, he wrote, "Crying, Abba, Father." In the eighth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans the Apostle describes this crying of the Spirit as "groanings which cannot be uttered." He writes in the 26th verse: "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." The fact that the Spirit of Christ in our hearts cries unto God and makes intercession for us with groanings should reassure us greatly. However, there are many factors that prevent such full reassurance on our part. We are born in sin. To doubt the good will of God is an inborn suspicion of God with all of us. Besides, the devil, our adversary, goeth about seeking to devour us by roaring: "God is angry at you and is going to destroy you forever." In all these difficulties we have only one support, the Gospel of Christ. To hold on to it, that is the trick. Christ cannot be perceived with the senses. We cannot see Him. The heart does not feel His helpful presence. Especially in times of trials a Christian feels the power of sin, the infirmity of his flesh, the goading darts of the devil, the agues of death, the scowl and judgment of God. All these things cry out against us. The Law scolds us, sin screams at us, death thunders at us, the devil roars at us. In the midst of the clamor the Spirit of Christ cries in our hearts: "Abba, Father." And this little cry of the Spirit transcends the hullabaloo of the Law, sin, death, and the devil, and finds a hearing with God. The Spirit cries in us because of our weakness. Because of our infirmity the Holy Ghost is sent forth into our hearts to pray for us according to the will of God and to assure us of the grace of God. Let the Law, sin, and the devil cry out against us until their outcry fills heaven and earth. The Spirit of God outcries them all. Our feeble groans, "Abba, Father," will be heard of God sooner than the combined racket of hell, sin, and the Law. We do not think of our groanings as a crying. It is so faint we do not know we are groaning. "But he," says Paul, "that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit." (Romans 8:27.) To this Searcher of hearts our feeble groaning, as it seems to us, is a loud shout for help in comparison with which the howls of hell, the din of the devil, the yells of the Law, the shouts of sin are like so many whispers. In the fourteenth chapter of Exodus the Lord addresses Moses at the Red Sea: "Wherefore criest thou unto me?" Moses had not cried unto the Lord. He trembled so he could hardly talk. His faith was at low ebb. He saw the people of Israel wedged between the Sea and the approaching armies of Pharaoh. How were they to escape? Moses did not know what to say. How then could God say that Moses was crying to Him? God heard the groaning heart of Moses and the groans to Him sounded like loud shouts for help. God is quick to catch the sigh of the heart. Some have claimed that the saints are without infirmities. But Paul says: "The Spirit helpeth our infirmities, and maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." We need the help of the Holy Spirit because we are weak and infirm. And the Holy Spirit never disappoints us. Confronted by the armies of Pharaoh, retreat cut off by the waters of the Red Sea, Moses was in a bad spot. He felt himself to blame. The devil accused him: "These people will all perish, for they cannot escape. And you are to blame because you led the people out of Egypt. You started all this." And then the people started in on Moses. "Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness." (Ex. 14:11, 12.) But the Holy Ghost was in Moses and made intercession for him with unutterable groanings, sighings unto the Lord: "O Lord, at Thy commandment have I led forth this people. So help me now." The Spirit intercedes for us not in many words or long prayers, but with groanings, with little sounds like "Abba." Small as this word is, it says ever so much. It says: "My Father, I am in great trouble and you seem so far away. But I know I am your child, because you are my Father for Christ's sake. I am loved by you because of the Beloved." This one little word "Abba" surpasses the eloquence of a Demosthenes and a Cicero." The entire reading is good and can be read at website address: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal4-01.html Blessings to all and hoping all are blessed! |
