| Author | Message | ||
| Shannono (Shannono) |
Hi all, I'm new here and am actually not a former Adventist. This is a bit of a different situation. I've been reading through the forum and am hopeful that with your personal experiences, you might be able to help me with my current situation. I recently started dating a man who is SDA. It's not a "serious" relationship at this point, but I'm looking down the road in case it moves in that direction. He is third-generation SDA and a deacon in the church, but in some areas he doesn't seem to adhere that closely to doctrine. I'm hopeful that there could be some chinks there. (Needless to say, I like him a lot. <g>) I'm looking for advice on how I should broach the subject of my problems with SDA doctrine, in such a way that he would be most likely to seriously consider my point of view. I know reactions would differ from person to person, but I really don't know where to start. I've thought of asking him if he believes I'm "doomed" (or something like that) because I don't believe Christians are required to keep the Sabbath. I do think keeping it on a personal basis is the best route, at least to start, rather than making broad statements about Christianity in general. I've been doing research to find appropriate Scripture passages to use to back myself up as needed, but at this point, I'm looking for a place to start. Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Shannon | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hello Shannon, Although I am not a ìchick,î I have had about the same experience that you are now having. I am now married to a second generation Adventist. My wife, when we were dating, also gave the impression that she did not believe everything that the Adventists teach. The problem is that, in the back of her mind, there was a powerful compulsion to ìget back to the truth.î This has led to her becoming more involved in the church. The fact that your beau is currently a deacon should tell you that he is deeply involved in the church and believes more than he will likely tell you at this time. I fear that he hopes to ìbring you inî gradually. The point will not be to force you or argue with you, but rather to start small. ìHoney, I am really troubled that our marriage is not as complete as it should be. We do not do enough together. We do not even attend church together. Do not you think we should go to Sabbath service together? No one will force you to join. That is your choice. Besides, the main service does not really go into the special beliefs so much. I think we should deepen our commitment by attending together.î I got that recently. In addition, family visits to his relations will inevitably include a Sabbath. Everyone might make you feel guilty of disrespecting his folks if you do not go to Sabbath service and Sabbath school. Are you doomed? In my opinion: Yes, if you try to argue scripture with him. It is not likely to work. I know that is not what you meant. He probably thinks you are not yet doomed if you will just be ìopenî and listen to what ìGod is saying.î I think you should not try to deal with his spiritual life. Just deal with yours. You can pray for him. However, you should not maneuver him. It would only lead to a nasty confrontation. Sure, you can study so you thoroughly understand things. We can point you to excellent resources. If you have a church that fulfills your needs, stay involved. Get more involved and do not worry about his spiritual life. In the end, you must decide whether this ìproblemî is enough to make you decide to move on to other people. If not; if you still want to be with him, do so with the knowledge that you may never change his beliefs. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Blessings, Jerry | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oops, you said "chink" Read it too fast. sorry. Everything else still applies. | ||
| Shannono (Shannono) |
Hi Jerry, Thanks for your comments. I feel I should clarify a bit: The reason I want to discuss things with him is not to change his mind or heart; as you said, only the Holy Spirit can do that (and I pray that it will, whether or not we stay together). What I want is to make it clear to him what my beliefs are and that I'm not going to change them. I also need to tell him that don't believe I could enter into a long-term relationship with an SDA member, for many reasons, including the ones you mention in your post. (In particular, I would want us to share a church.) Because of that, I don't think it would be fair to either of us to not discuss it, and sooner rather than later, because the more involved we become, the harder it would be if we did split over this. I simply don't want there to be any confusion between us -- I may not attend church regularly, but I am very firm in my faith. Yes, I am praying for him constantly (so is my family), as well as doing some studying, mainly at SDAnonymous.com, although I'd be appreciative of other suggestions. But mainly I want to know how former SDA members would suggest opening a discussion of faith with a current member. I don't want it to be antagonistic or confrontational, which is why I'm asking for help. But I believe it's a discussion we're going to have, and I'd like to make it as smooth as possible. Thanks again, Shannon | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Just a suggestion, and that would be to just sit down with him some evening and tell him that you like him a lot, but there is a problem. The problem is that SDA beliefs are very different from mainstream Christianity and that you could never accept them. Be honest and tell him that you can't be a vegetarian, that you see no need to give up jewelry, and that you can't accept EGW. That you believe that Christs' death on the cross was the final atonement and that there really are 'two covenants', and the new one is the better one...etc. I'll tell you something else though--even though you make that clear, most SDA's will keep on hoping that you will 'see the light'. My mother was SDA, married my dad who was Church of Christ--and never gave up trying to convince him that he was wrong. He had made clear to her before they married where he stood and she said she was o.k. with that as long as he was a good Christian man. But, the reality turned out to be different and it's tough sometimes for kids to grow up 'hybrids'. I'm now a member of the Church of Christ and my only sibling (a brother) doesn't go to any church. So, this is definitely worth considering.... Bill S. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, and beside what Bill said, you need to be ready to back this up with action. If you are leaving him, LEAVE. If you are not, make clear exactly the circumstances under which you would stay. And be sure you know what you will do if something does not go as planned. Do NOT waver in your choices, so plan your choices slowly and carefully. In other words, be firm and clear. Just my opinion. Jerry | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Hi Shannon, and welcome to the forum! I want to caution you....no matter what he says, there's an excellent chance that privately he will still be hoping and praying you will "see the light." I left the church about a year ago, and have been married to a fine Christian non SDA man since 1995. Although I was not openly pushing him to become an Adventist, I was certain he'd eventually be led to what I believed to be the truth. There is a new generation of SDAs now that truly believe they are part of mainstream Christianity, that Christ and Christ alone saves, that you no longer have to be SDA to be "saved." However, they still believe eventually all non SDA Christians will be led to the SDA truth and church. I was convinced my husband would "come around." Fortunately God led me out and not him in! Just be careful, and I know it doesn't sound like a good way to start a serious relationship, if I were you I'd keep my eyes wide open in this. Good luck & God bless you. Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
RUN SHANNON RUN!!!!!!!! I'm kidding, sort of, I think. The fact that a deacon is dating a non-Adventist in the first place is a glimmer of hope. I think you should be really honest and just lay it all out on the table and then see if he's willing to hear anything else or just stuck. A lot could happen from there. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Welcome, Shannon! Well, you're probably getting some idea of how risky most of us see this relationship to be! I agree with all the cautions stated above. I'll add a couple of things to the mix. First, if you ask him if he thinks you're lost because you don't keep the Sabbath, I'm quite sure he'll say, "No, of course not!" Adventists believe people can be saved keeping SundayóIF they've never heard and truly understood the Sabbath. The real test would be to ask him if he believes he can be saved if he gave up the Sabbath. Even then he'll probably make a convoluted excuse about Sabbath not being for salvation but is a sign of his commitment to God. As Carol said above, there is a new generation of Adventists who believe they're really mainstream Christians. They do not actually know how much their church is different from Christianity, and they don't actually know they are completely dependent upon a false prophet for their doctrines. They just know they'd never leave, and they hope those they love will join them. In fact, they believe that if people are really Christian, they'll become Adventist if they get to know Adventist beliefs and practices. Second, most (certainly not all, but most) Adventist are not born again. They have given intellectual assent to Jesus, but they do not know him. They have a very low view of scripture, and even though they say it's the inspired word of God, they believe it is fallible. They believe it has errors and contradictions in it that must be explained away. Some Adventists openly admit they believe the Bible is fallible; others insist they believe it is completely inspiredóthey just believe God deliberately included the errors and contradictions in it. They teach that Ellen White, their prophet, was inspired the same way the Bible prophets were inspired. Since Ellen has so many errors and contradictions that her editors have had to gloss over and hide, they say it's logical to suppose we have to do the same with the Bible. 2 Corinthians 6:14-16 says not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Unequal yoking, unfortunately, would be the case if a true, born-again Christian married a typical Adventist. In spite of their religious talk, most Adventists have a form of godliness without the power of true godliness. They are not born again; they do not know Jesus and truly love him. Third, Adentism has a particularly strong hold on its members because it truly has a spiritual claim on them. The deception in which the church was born, the false visions of it prophet, the spurious, non-biblical doctrines all come not from God but from the author of confusion. Adventism can truly be considered a cult because if deceives, it separates, it claims ultimate truth, and it is unbiblical in spite of its claims to the opposite. They use proof-texts to prove their doctrines, and by taking texts out-of-context, they twist Scripture to say what it truly does not say. Satan does have a claim on that church. Be in prayer, ShannonóGod can change this man, but you can't count on helping him change. We'll pray for you, too! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
My dad gave me a bit of dating advice that I will pass along to you; it was very helpful to me: "The reason for dating is to find a lifetime partner. If, in the process of dating you discover something about the person that you CAN NOT LIVE WITH for the rest of your life then it is time to break up with that person and move on." You must approach a relationship with this man knowing that he is an Adventist and that he will carry those Adventist beliefs into the rest of your lives together. His roots in Adventist grow deep and they will affect every aspect of your lives together. Events that you did not even give a thought to attending on Friday evenings and Saturdays will be heavily scrutinized by an Adventist. Many you will attend alone! His feelings of guilt regarding these things will be transferred to you, if it is possible. Foods will be an issue. It is one thing for you to order something at a restaurant that he will not eat and yet another for the same foods to reside within his home and be prepared there. Deeper issues will arise when you start a family. He will want them in the Adventist church and school system so they will receive the same indoctrination as he has. The simplest things as participating in soccer, baseball will become major issues as they require Saturday practices and meets. Dance/ballet lessons are discouraged--I've never known an Adventist family who had a child who took any dance lessons. Every childs Sabbath school class is heavily indoctrinated with Sabbath observance. They are taught over and over again about things you do on the Sabbath and things you don't do on the Sabbath. Adventisms "evangelism" began with the motivation of converting Christians into Adventist. That was the objective of Adventism from its formation. Yes, they do evangelize unbelievers but they have an equally important mission to convert non-Sabbath keepers to Adventism. This agenda has not changed! If he is a regular attender--then you can be fairly certain he places the Sabbath as an important factor in his salvation. If, however, he is sporatic then it is possible he places less importance on it. However, I would be more inclined to think that he simply KNOWS what to do (keep the Sabbath)and when the time comes (tribulation) then he will seriously keep the Sabbath in order to "seal up" his salvation. As far as where to begin to get him talking about spiritual matters. I think the gospel is the place to start. John and 1 John would be an excellent place. The primary problem with these books is going to be the Adventist inclination to superimpose the 10 commandsment whenever "obey his commands" is mentioned. If they can ever see that 1 John is referring to the command to believe in Christ and to love one another and that John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command" is referring to the same command of love then they may be able to relinquish the death grip the Sabbath has on them. Another problem Adventist have is they have no security of salvation. They can't trust Christ that they are saved. Remaining saved is all up to them. And remaining saved means keeping the Sabbath. In the mindset of an Adventist--You don't really understand the importance of the Sabbath so you aren't "accountable". They on the other hand, understand it completely so they will lose their salvation if they depart from its practice. It's a tangled web--even if he leaves it you will always be encountering it with his family and friends. I left Adventist four years ago yet I'll live with it for my entire life. Always having to brush away the cobwebs that my Adventist family and friends keep spinning. As a woman you are Biblically mandated to submit to your husbands authority. If you marry this man and he remains an Adventist then that would be a mandate for you to submit to his Adventist tendencies. Meaning that you should submit in what foods you prepare in the home, what you do on Fridays and Saturdays, what you wear, where your children attend school, what activities are deemed appropriate,etc....the list can go on and on. These may seem like small things--but they can become issues of bitterness and anger. The question is: Is it something you can live with for the rest of your life?? And will it forever be a hindrance to your spiritual life?? | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Shannon, consider too that this is someone who is not equipped to offer you support when you go thru hard times. A death in the family? He will not have a comforting word for you that your saved loved one is secure with God. Having trouble on your job? It will most certainly come down to you not keeping the sabbath. Sick? You aren't a vegetarian and you have been eating unclean foods....and praying for divine healing? Well, forget it, that doesn't exist. Going thru a sort of dry time spiritually (as we all do occassionally) you will be encouraged to doubt that you are still saved at all. Is there a troubling report on the news, for instance like what happened last year on 9/11? Oh doom gloom, pack your bags it's time to head for the hills because "they" are coming for the sabbatarians! See, the SDA's have many of the correct "Christian" sounding words. What they don't have is the relationship with Christ. You spoke of asking him directly if he believes you to be saved without sabbathkeeping. I have yet to EVER hear an SDA answer that question with a "yes you are doomed". The answer I have ALWAYS heard is "well no....I'm sure you are saved. But there is more you have to learn, etc, etc. as Colleen noted above. But we here can absolutely assure you that the discussion amongst sda's in their churches, sabbath school classes, and private conversation is that you are definitely viewed as being doomed to fry in hell because of the day on which you worship. About the SDAnonymous site... You will find my story, my husband's, and that of our friend Kathy there. We have all travelled about a million miles from the time when we posted our testimonies there. There is much we would dearly love to change in those! We have learned SO much since that time. And I can't say that strongly enough. That website still encourages sabbatarianism. Just a warning. | ||
| Kme (Kme) |
Oh Shannon... Diddo on all of the above. Let me give you another perspective on this. I as a cradle Adventist, dated a couple of non-Adventist people quite seriously and for lenthy periods of time (years). I was not at all inclined towards any other faith, but was not really a practicing SDA at the time. But even then, I had hopes of converting my "friends" before, or certainly after marriage. Any discussion we had about religion or the gospel was ended with me feeling like they were the one in error. After all, I had been raised with the real truth and they had not!! You see that's what the SDA indoctrination does to a person that is different than mainstream Christianity. Never, never, under estimate that. You would have thought I had major "chinks" in my beliefs from my life style. But believe me, it's solid. And as someone said above, the fact that he is a deacon indicates he probably is more solid than he might want you to believe right now. Pray, Pray, Pray and don't allow yourself to be drawn into the tangled web of his beliefs. Even if he should be willing to genuinely study with you with a so-called open mind, be wary. Because, unless he is searching for himself at the promting of the Holy Spirit and not for you, he won't be able to see the true Gospel of Jesus. And those SDA beliefs of his will add an abnormalcy to every aspect of your life should you join your life with his. Sorry for the gloom, but it's true. May the Holy Spirit be with you and him and protect you. kme | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Yes, KME hit the nail on the head...."unless he is searching for himself at the promting of the Holy Spirit and not for you, he won't be able to see the true Gospel of Jesus." I would think it might be easy to believe that when discussing and/or studying these things that he would be the one to have his eyes opened, however, unless it is at the prompting of the Holy Spirit and his mind is open, it won't happen. When my husband & I were first married he tried to Biblically discuss the SDA doctrines with me - (I think he was shocked at how defensive I quickly became.) Even though he knew the Bible way better than me, and everything he said made sense, I refused to see it. We cannot change each other, only God's Spirit can do that. God bless you Shannon, hope we're not scaring you away. I think you'll find a loving support group here, and whatever you decide to do, please allow us to do whatever we can to help. Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Shannono (Shannono) |
Thanks to everyone, and no one's scaring me away! Everything everyone has said is very helpful. More help is always welcome. I do want to offer reassurance that no matter what decisions I make (or he makes), I'm secure in my faith. Always learning and growing, of course, but there is NO danger of me being drawn into Adventism. I know the truth! I have to say that I feel more blessed every day that I was raised in an open-minded but firmly faith-based Christian household. I was brought up in the Methodist and Presbyterian churches (my father is now a Methodist minister), but my parents always encouraged me to think, pray and study on my own. My personal faith has developed based on what I've been taught but just as much on what I've worked out for myself. I believe faith is absolutely a personal thing; it loses all meaning when you believe (or SAY you believe) simply because someone tells you to believe. I appreciate all the prayers always, both for me and for my friend. I've said to others that if I had to choose, as much as I like him, I'd be more than willing to never see him again if I could just know his eyes had been opened. I know that nothing can happen unless he is open to the Holy Spirit. But I also know that God uses us as we are able. My prayer is that if nothing else, I will say or do the right things to plant a seed for eventual redemption somewhere in him -- even if I don't reap the benefits. Love to all, Shannon |
