| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 6:44 pm: |     |
Thanks Bill for the name of the field I was speaking.
And thank you Lydell for those websites. I'm going to have to check them out. For whatever reason, I've always thought that dinosaurs lived at the same time as men. I'm just amazed that we find no referrences to them in the Bible. You know, like fighting them or having to set up camp elsewhere for the creatures were trampling on them kind of stuff.  But I have yet to be able to explain God's own words about the the fire coming out of the mouth of one of those creatures. Who can explain that? I can't. Doesn't matter though as I take it for what it says, even if I can't explain it.
I also agree with you Colleen. It doesn't matter how old is this earth but what does matter is that we know God did infact create it, us, all creatures and all the universerse, galaxies, etc.
Always in awe when I see how God paints the sky every night with beautiful colors or causes the birds to sing. And like you Lydell, I used to get out and be able to see beauties like you experience. To this day, I still miss them.
We have a wonderful God! Can't wait to meet him, face to face!
In Christ, Jesus name, blessings to all. amen.
your sister in HIM. |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 8:12 am: | |
Denise, the article I am referring to about dinorsaurs in the Bible will be very intersting to you then. Some of them see that there good very well be the possability that one of those dinosaurs could seem to breathe fire. Ever hear of a bombadier beetle? It would be kind of the same idea as the makeup that enables the beetle to protect itself. There should be an article in the archives on the beetle as well. There's just a number of things that had to come together at the right moment for that little beetle to be able to shoot gas in the face of an attacker. Couldn't have evolved over millinia.
Hopefully you'll find an article at the answers in genesis site on a plant called the bucket orchid. Pretty fascinating. |
Nate (Nate)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 9:25 am: | |
Derrell, Greetings and welcome to the FAF Family! I have not been on the forum in months. But I was cruising through some of the back discussions and saw your entry. I just want to say that I truly understand your pain and conflicting emotions. We have been through a similar process. I was a pastor in a significant and progressive SDA church in the south. But eventually we came up to the issue of the Gospel vs the teachings of the SDA chgurch. We made a faith step The end of july of 2001. I resigned from the pastoral position and my wife and two sons stepped out into the unknown by faith. God has been so very good to us. You can read our story on in the story section under Greg and Paula Taylor's letter to family and friends. and get the update at www.warren-wilson.edu/~rickb/taylor God has truly been faithful. We are now part of a church plant in Hagerstown MD. It has been nice to be part of a new work of God and to be part of such a praying and alive community of believers. We have several formers in our church already, and one of the custodians in the school we rent from has been sitting in on our services. He is a non-attending SDA. But he is asking questions. His wife is growing by leaps and bounds. Comes every Sunday. She accepted Christ two weeks ago at a retreat. We are praying for him to be set free soon too.
All I can say is, once you get clarity on what God is asking you to do. Do it! Our family has been so blessed as we have decided to follow Jesus at any cost. I cannot praise God enough for taking us deeper into the good news of the Gospel! It has not been easy! It is still not easy, but it is worth it!
God bless you on your journey and greetings to all the rest of the FAF family! you were so helpful for us as we were making our decisions and needed a place that was safe to talk, ask questions, and solicit prayer. It was not safe any place else.
By the way, we were eventually dropped by the church we pastored as apostate. Even though the people there had a hard time with that label, the SDA denomination leaves no other option. Death, Missing, Transfer to another SDA church, or apostacy. They do not recognize any of the rest of us as being Christian that have once been exposed to Adventism. I know that many in the church do not agreed with this, but the official stance of the church is still what I just stated. My wife and i requested transfer to the church we now serve. They dropped us as apostate because they were not allowed to do anything else as far as the conference is concerned. It is clear that while there are many within the SDA system that are evanagelical and fully Christian, the official stance of the system is far from accepting the rest of the Christian world. We pray daily for a renewal in the church of our youth. We love the SDA church. We pray that someday the walls will come down. Can you imagine what a blessing the SDA church could be if it would face its dark side and come clean? It would take incredible humility. But what a powerful testimony that would be to the power of God. That was what Jeus was longing for. His church loving each other and being unified in purpose, not separating over non-essentials..Rom 14:5-6
God bless you all!
Greg Taylor (Nate) |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 3:12 pm: | |
Greg, it's so good to hear from you again and to hear how well your family is doing. God is so faithful!
Thank you for posting.
Colleen |
Derrell (Derrell)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 7:02 pm: | |
Thank you Greg. I went to the site that you posted, and read your story. I'm glad that you were able to stay in ministry and find something that you are happy with.
Do you find that your changes have promoted hostility toward you in your family? If so, has it subsided with time? I have arrived at the point where I dread answering the phone if caller ID shows some of my family's munbers.
Well, God blesses and will continue to bless as we follow him.
Derrell |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 8:12 pm: | |
Dear Derrell, I don't recall your history, your background in SDA'ism. Plesase, refresh me a bit on that. I have not ben a regular attender in the SDA church during all of my adult life. I have always liked going to church,though. My mother says she would rather see someone no be involved with any church if they already know the "truth of the Sabbah" than go to a "Sunday-keeping" church. I know people who honestly believe it is better to go to a Sabbath-keeping church that they know is wrong on everything else but at least has the "Sabbath truth" than to attend a Sundsay-keeping church that may have everything else right but worship on the wrong day. Go figure! Yet, on the other hand the SDA's have no respect or comraderaee wih other Sabbath-keeping churchs, such as The Seventh-day Baptist, The Church of God, Seventh-day, etc. One would think if it's really Sabbath that is so important to the SDA's they'd try to reach out and cooperate more with the other Sabbath-keeping churhs. |
Clay (Clay)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 9:22 pm: | |
Greg thank you for your post. I had read your story and in fact shared it with a number of SDA's who are questioning and they were very impressed with it. It is really answering some of their questions. You wrote it with grace and love.
I am so glad you are back in ministry and that God is blessing your experience.
I left the pastoral ministry 3 years ago and it has been a very difficult yet wonderful experience. I would have to say that God has been able to do a wonderful work in my life through this past year or so even though it has been hard.
I just praise Him for walking with me through it.
My eyes have been opened to see a much bigger picture of what it means to be a follower of the Master.
I just want to share a wonderful thing that happened recently.
I have a dear 87 year old mother who I have not felt I was able to share about my spiritual journey with. She has always been SDA and I just felt it would break her heart (literally) to hear that her son had left Adventism. AS a result I never shared much about spiritual matters and our visits would last about an hour and I'd get sleepy in her warm room and fall asleep.
A few weeks ago I took a day and drove to see her since it was her birthday. I prayed all that way that the HOly Spirit would impress me if it was OK to share some things with her.
I spent 6 hours with her that afternoon in her room and never tired once and I was able to share some of my disagreements about ADventism and where God was leading me. I was so supprised at her response. She would say "You know I have always wondered why we believe that, it never made sense to me."
Without making this a long story, we had a wonderful time sharing our spiritual journey and I felt a huge weight taken off my shoulders.
She is not able to understand some of the issues and that's OK. She understands the basics.
I just praise God for allowing that discussion to take place. When we speak in love and compassion, we can say so much more without offending.
Yea God!! |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hello Lydell,
I've never heard of the bombadier beetle. They have the ability to shoot gas out of their mouth? Nevermind...I'll go read about these beetles!
Amazing how so many things exist that live and breath that we didn't even know exists. Thank you for those websites btw, they're great. But this one with the beetle is a must read for me. And you're right, these kinds of wonders couldn't have taken a millinea to come about.
Off to read the answers in genesis site now. This is fascinating stuff to me and could possibly explain many things I muse about. Wow, what wonders God has made, eh?
Always amazed with our God, Jesus the Christ!
Denise, the one who muses quite often. |
Nate (Nate)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 7:00 am: | |
Derrell, We did get hit pretty hard when we left. We were attacked from a number of directions. Financially, when the conference did not give us our full severance pachage. They ended up shoring us about 4 months. But God was faithful and we were blessed is no many other ways. We were attacked by some of the church members. Some of them used my process on the FAF to discredit me. Once they knew who I was they went back and dug up everything I ever said and made a point to tell everyone that it was unethical for me to have been getting paid as an SDA pastor if I felt that way. There was no grace at all for my time of processing. I was only 2 1/2 months online before I made the break. But they took the statements that were the most filled with my struggle with the church and printed them out to spread around. Finally other ministers including Bacchiocchi hit me hard. But the other side is that many were sympathetic to our journey. Many studied things out that had never done so before. Many have found a freedom thay have never known before.
Nowdays, we don't hear much of it anymore except gratitude from thos who were blessed by our ministry in the church and those who are asking questions.
Clay, Good to meet you! Colleen, great to be in contact. God bless you all!
Greg |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 4:11 pm: | |
Derrell, the attacks are inevitable given the nature of the spiritual battle we're fighting. As far as family members are concerned, some of those schisms do not disappear quickly. We've been officially "out" for almost 4 years, and some loved ones are still angry--although they do contact us. They've backed off from arguing, though. I think I would term the status of things right now as polite but guarded--and not open.
Although you feel as if your character is being shredded during your time of struggle and discovery and action, the miracle is that God finally places you where your heart can heal and where you find true fellowship that transcends the "tight" connections you had before.
Greg, thank you for sharing more of your experience here. I'm so sorry for the--well,--gossip that was spread about your struggles. Peter said we were not to be surprised when all manner of difficulties rise against us because of the gospel. In spite of the "heads up", though, it is still surprising when it hits.
I remember so clearly that, after a particularly difficult conversation with someone we had worked with who DID NOT understand our leaving because we found Jesus, Richard and I walked away feeling vulnerable and shaken, and we had to deliberately say to ourselves, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ."
I continue to pray for all of us, and I thank God that He is here on this forum with his peace and his love.
Colleen |
Clay (Clay)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 12:49 pm: | |
Yes Greg I too am sorry to hear of the gossip and pain you experienced.
I want you to know how much your story on this forum as helped a number of people including myself. I printed it off and gave it to a number of friends and I know some of them were deeply moved by it and are seriously questioning as a result. As I said earlier, you spoke with love and gentleness. Thank you for doing that.
As I read the comments of many about leaving your church I realize my situation is quite different.
The church that I pastored at the time I stepped down is a very open minded free thinking SDA church that has been considered the black sheep of Adventist churches in our city by many conservative SDA's.
I suppose that is partially due to my influence as a pastor for many years. I had been "gospel-only focused" for several years. I had seperated from the main-stream several years before in my heart.We had moved to a contemporary woship style when "celebration " was a bad word.
After stepping down (or rather burning-out) I felt free to move on in my journey without the guilt of not fitting into the Adventist mold. What a wonderful feeling of freedom!!
Yes I moved beyond the majority of the church in my thinking, but several families left as well and many of the ones who remain in this church are still friends.
Yes they are hung up on the Sabbath issue even though their Sabbath observance is extremely liberal.
I believe if they would take the time to study for themselves, many would be lead to exit, but at this point they are content to not wrestle with the issues. Many of them believe there is not another SDA church they would ever attend if something happened to their little church and that scares them so they hang on tightly to what they have.
Though I feel things have changed between us, I still love them and we will occasionally lead a praise service for them when asked to do so. They know we worship in many other churches and are involved in many ministries, and if that bothers them they do not mention it. I see God working in their lives.
So I guess I do not and have not experienced the depth of pain that some of you have in leaving your local congregation. That may still be ahead for us.
We also have our small group that has been such a strength for us.
I am grateful for this forum, and I know it is a blessing to all former's.
We pray for those of you who are experiencing the pain of rejection. Keep looking to Jesus. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 4:00 pm: | |
Clay, I want to thank you again for sharing your experiences so openly with all of us. You are a blessing to us, as I know you also are and have been to your former congregation and to those to whom you minister.
Colleen |
Nate (Nate)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 3:10 pm: | |
Thanks Clay. I relate very much to your church experience. The progressive SDA church with an evangelical mindset. I really thought that things would be much that way for me. With many of our people it was fine. But usually it is the vocal minority that get the deepest arrows it. On the other hand, sometimes people protest too loudly. It is my opinion that many folks that are the most upset, are sincere in their opposition, but like the apostle Paul, are zealous because they have a level of contiction that they are not ready to deal with.
I often think about people like Sam Bacchiocchi and wonder if they really don't have deep convictions but have so much invested in the old ways that it becomes almost impossible for them to be objective. Only God knows, but whenever someone is extra heavy on the defensive, it is an invitation to pray for them. Who knows when the next apostle Paul will emerge. No one was able to take on the Judaizing heresy like Paul.
Colleen,
I got a call yesterday from some folks you met from Austin Texas last night. They had read our story online and decided to contact us. We had such a delightful converstaion sharing our stories. The woman said you had veen to visit her and her husband. We were able to talk about our respective journeys and express gratitude for you and Richard and your help for so many of us. I wish you could have been in on the converstaion, but you need to know that your ministry means so much to so many people.
God bless you and the rest of the FAF family!
Greg |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 1:29 pm: | |
Hi Greg,
Even before Dr. Bacchiocchi wrote about you, I had a similar thought about his defensiveness.
Greg, I do not dispute your proposed view of Dr. Bacchiocchiís defensiveness. In fact, I agree.
I simply wish to point out that we need to look a little deeper than the emotions to validate the view. If we do not do that, we run the risk of ignoring substantive evidence. I suspect that you do not need my caution. Therefore, I hope you understand that I am speaking in general terms to anyone who reads this.
It is a little bit risky for us to cite someoneís defensiveness as evidence that one is not secure in oneís public stand on an issue. While it is true that people who are not secure in their beliefs can become very defensive, that is not always the case. Defensiveness is a response to a threat or injury. Whether the defenderís view is valid or invalid does not depend on the level of defensiveness. Rather, it may be independent of the emotional content of their defense.
For example: I am secure in the fact that I love my family and, despite their and my faults, I am secure in the fact that they are all decent, valuable people. If someone commences a divisive, insulting, public attack on my family, I assure you that my defense will be very emotional and vigorous. Does that mean my family is bad simply because I am so ìdefensive?î I think not.
In the case of Dr. Bacchiocchi, we have a different picture. While your ìmanifestoî may have staunchly contradicted some of his doctrinal positions, his replies clearly went to personal attack. While you focused on your beliefs and experiences, he focused on claiming you as inferior based on his ìsuperiorî background and understanding. While you based your writing in the spirit of sharing and explaining, he based his in the spirit of attack and insult.
I have often heard Adventists say these general statements:
ìOh, of course you are entitled to your OPINION.î
(Translation: ìI cannot stop any idiot from believing in stupid/bad things.î)
ìYou seem to be TROUBLED/CONFUSED about Seventh-day Adventism.î
(Translation: ìYou ignorant fool! You do not know THE TRUTH. The devil has deceived you!î)
ì[Insert name of opponent to SDA doctrine here] is such an ANGRY man/woman.î
(Translation: ìEmotions provide more proof than facts.î)
I think it would be best if we all double-check to see that we base our reactions more on facts and behavior rather than emotional response.
God grant all of us the gift of wisdom and understanding,
Jerry |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
Greg, I've had similar thoughts about Bacchiocchi also. I believe he KNOWS the truth about what the NT teaches about the Sabbath. He also KNOWS what the Vatican claims regarding Sunday--that the Catholic church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. That claim has been Adventists' "crown jewel", so to speak, when they defend the biblical Sabbath. After all, why would they join the rest of the uninformed Christian world and worship on the day that the Catholic church established?
The fact is, only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that myth. The Christian community is clear that the first century Christians worshiped on Sunday for at least two centureis before there was a Catholic church. The writings of the early church fathers confirm that Christians, particularly gentile Christians, worshiped on Sunday--or the eight day, as it was sometimes called--in honor of the resurrection and also of Pentecost, the birth of the church, which was clearly on Sunday.
Christians in general know that Sunday is the day they worship becuase of the miracle of Jesus' life and his life given to his believers. The belief that the Catholics changed the day is only held, as far as I can tell, by Catholics and by Adventists. Isn't it ironic that the Adventists have adopted that rather arrogant claim as the truth when it's made by their supposed arch-enemy?
But back to my original point; I find it hard to believe that Bacchiocchi doesn't know these things, studying as he did at the Vatican.
I am so thankful for the fact that God is sovereign, he is the judge, and he has called us to himself.
Colleen |
Nate (Nate)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 1:58 pm: | |
Yes, Jerry, Colleen, et al,
I am so glad God is judge, and that He is so gracious toward us all. I know how I first reacted to some of the things that i now have come to understand as truth. At first I was strongly opposed to the ideas presented. I studied to oppose the statements of some of my friends that had made the step away from the SDA Sabbath position. Yet I could not knock the heart they had for Jesus and the risks they were willing to take to stand for their convictions. In time, God used their willingness to process with me and their life decisions to help me come to grips with the claims of the New Testament, especially the book of Galatians.
My wife and I were part of an intercessory prayer meeting this moring. Such a powerful time of prayer and worship! It is so wonderful to be part of a work of God that has such an inderdenominational heart. God is moving in such profound ways. This is not eccumenism where churches get together to pool political power. This is unity in the body of Christ for seeking revival and renewal and evangelistic effectiveness. Jesus in John 13-17 kept declaring this to be His heart for the church. True sanctification is seen when believers are one in heart for God and reaching the lost. This prayer time was so anointed.
In our region there is a growing heart for prayer across denominational lines. Not just rote symbolic prayers, but heart felt cryhing out for God to touch the world for Himself...people laboring in the Spirit for their friends and family and for the city, the region, the nation, and the world. God is pouring out such a heart for intercession that people are banding together in prayer all around this city! What a time to be alive!
During one of the breaks in the prayer time this morning, one of the people in the group mentioned the billboards that had just been posted on the interstate near here. "Saturday is the True Sabbath, Sunday is the Mark of the Beast"... (clearly some some well meaning SDA's had put them up) "You used to be one of them didn't you, Greg? Why do they do that? The spirit feels so wrong, don't they know about Romans 14:5-6? ... don't they think we are part of God's family?"
I told them that I knew that this was a right wing group in the SDA church and that many evangelical SDAs do not think that way. My wife and I were evangelical SDAs for years and hoped we might bring about change in that system until God led us out. Yet, there is truth to the billboards, because the main body of the church does teach that. They do believe that Sabbath is the big issue and that the Mark of the best and Sunday keeping are connected. They just will not tell you that until lesson 7 or 8 in their Revelation Seminars or Prophecy Crusades. So it is true that this is what SDAs officially teach.
After the break, I heard prayers going up for the SDA church. For God to pour out His blessing on them and to help them see His Spirit.
Paula and I thought to ourselves, "What a contrast!... on one hand, a separatist message of condemnation toward all that don't believe in the SDA brand of theology, and a prayer meeting on the other filled with people who love Jesus so much that they will pour their hearts out for lost people with tears and groanings. One side condemns, the other seeks to include. We heard prayers going up for the authors of the billboards!
My heart just grieves for the way I used to think about people outside the SDA church. Real brothers and sisters in Christ that I had condemned. Now I long for revival to sweep the SDA church as it is elsewhere. I pray daily for the church of my youth. I pray that God will remove the veil that keeps people in bondage. Let the walls fall down and revival bring us together in Christ!
Oh Lord our God, Pour out your Spirit on us all,especially on the SDA church. Bring new life, bring healing, bring honesty and openness, bring revival, Lord! Pour out your Spirit in power! Let the walls fall down! Let us get about the real business of seeking and praying for the lost! In Jesus Name, Amen!
Sorry, everyone, I can't help but long and pray for the day...!
In Christ,
Greg |
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 6:29 pm: | |
Nate,
Your billboard situation begs a question. This is the second or third such billboard that I have heard about in the nation, somewhere along interstate highways. This type of advertising does not come cheap. What type of "right wing group" within the church could afford such a high dollar budget? There may be evangelical members within their ranks but it really makes me wonder who is supporting this coordinated advertising approach.
They hide their name during their "seminars" and other outreach efforts. Why not in this way as well?
What a sad waste of dollars. How many souls could be pointed to the Savior instead of turned off (or on) by a mear shadow of what was to come. I believe that's what Paul called it.
I mirror your prayer for revival within the organization. Sadly, I fear that the revival is already taking place by people coming out and finding the light. The organization has known the errors since the beginning and has chosen to hide them. Why should they change, when change would really destroy their "remnant" status.
Thank God for Jesus and for Grace!
In His Grip
<><
Thomas |
Derrell (Derrell)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 7:24 pm: | |
Thomas, In our community there is a former Adventist pastor named Jan Marcussen. Jan wrote a book called "National Sunday Law" that is widely distributed across the U.S. and around the world. He became so fanatically right wing that he started preaching that the SDA church had become an ecumenical abomination that was simply an extension of the Vatican by virtue of being run by undercover Jesuits. He was defrocked and disfellowshipped.
Over the years, Jan has built a surprisingly large following of fanatics who are willing to give liberally of their resources to further his Tabloid Gospel. Many of these people are older widows who are relatively wealthy, yet gullible. Their money goes to fund projects such as those billboards.
For years I have considered Jan to be an embarassment to Adventism in our area... I have gone a step further to consider Adventism an embarassment to my Christianity. People like Jan only take the "unique doctrines" of our church, from lesson seven and move them to lesson one.
Greg, I am humbled by the beautiful attitude your church has taken, as demonstrated by their prayers and concern for Adventists. I wish my family could be a part of your group.
Take care,
Derrell |
Windmotion (Windmotion)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 8:41 pm: | |
Hello, just wanted to update you all on the birth of Bethany Christina Cherie born Oct. 25. Her picture is online at http://www.growingfamily.com/webnursery/babypage_view.asp?URLID=2K7P9F9N8N. She is very sweet and a little blessing from God (although a very LOUD blessing)I ended up having a C-section because she was breech. My doctors tried turning her first, which is not something I would recommend to anyone because first it didn't work and secondly it was quite painful. I was amazed as well how many people told me afterwards they knew how painful it was but didn't want to tell me. I imagined my doctors gently and calmly prodding my stomach while observing their progress via ultrasound. Instead my two male doctors mashed down on my stomach as hard as they could. Ahh well, what is that verse about all the pain being forgotten. It really almost is. Anyways, please check here pic out. She is quite cute.
--Hannah |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 6:30 am: | |
Help Hannah...I can't seem to get to the picture, is that address correct?
Congratulations and many blessings. Groan....C-section...I remember that. I pray that you are able to rest comfortably and heal remarkably fast. Isn't it amazing the depth of love you feel for that child when you hold her?
Now can I brag a bit on my son? (hm, he is the one who was born C-section 22 years ago...I would say we retain certain memories of the pain! ha). He was driving behind a car the other day that had a big sticker on it saying, "Saturday is the true Sabbath". He managed to be beside this car when they stopped at the next light. So he quickly scribbled out his own sign to hold up to his window for the driver to see, "JESUS is the Sabbath!". sniff, I'm so proud! |
Nate (Nate)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 8:48 am: | |
Congratualtions, Hannah! You have given birth to new life in spite of your trying and extremely painful ordeal. It is interesting that your childbirth story comes in the midst of a discussion involving prayer for revival. It is likened to childbirth in Romans 8:22 "the whole creation groans and travails (as in childbirth) in birth pangs...Likewise we also groan within ourselves... eagerly waiting for the adoption..."
... v26 the Spirit himself maks intercession for us with GROANINGS that words cannot express..."
This longing for souls to be set free from bondage and to interceed for the deliverance of all who have been suffering outside of a knowldge of the love and grace of our Lord Jesus... brings an inner longing in our spirits, a burden for prayer that hurts like chilbirth in the spirit!
The good news is that labor pains signal the inevitable coming joy! Praise God He is setting His people free and the new life that is coming, the first fruits being already seen right here on this forum... will be so incredible, that the labor pains will be forgotten in the joy of a mass movement of God!
Darrell, our prayers are with you! Thanks for your observations Thomas!
In Christ,
Greg |
Windmotion (Windmotion)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:47 pm: | |
You can also get to it by going to www.webnursery.com, click on the baby's web page link in the upper right hand corner, search by hospitals in Port Huron, Michigan then look under babies born at Mercy Birthing Center in October and you should see Bethany N. I will be on maternity leave until the end of December, so all I do every day is sit around holding her and loving her. In the middle of the night, loving her is a little more difficult. Haha. Has anyone read the adventist section in Walter Martin's book about cults? My husband recently recommended it to me. We will be visiting his parents the weekend after Thanksgiving. His dad is an outspoken Adventist. I have only met them once before, partly because he lives on the other side of the country. We don't have the closest relationship with them, since he sees me as the one who deluded his son out of adventism. THe last time, it was a Saturday and we went to the zoo of all places. Yes it cost $$ and we bought other things that day. I would think he would want to be an every more stringent sabbath keeper when around nonadventists in order to be a good witness and make it look like he enjoys sabbath keeping. Adventism didn't come up last time, but David seems to think it may this time, based on recent phone conversations. So, if you could pray for us. His dad is a very intelligent person.
--Hannah |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 2:00 pm: | |
Hi Hannah congrates on the new baby. I am new on here. I have recently left the church. One thing I would recommend is to look up the most important text to you and write them down. There are many sites who have really good easy imformation so that it is quick and painless. I will be praying for you and your family. I have not told my parents yet they live out of state. Well if you want to write me my email is tbawgus@hotmailcom |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 3:01 pm: | |
Hooray, Hannah!
Congratulations on the new princess! (Royalty can be SO DEMANDING, canít they?)
Give her a few kisses for us!
I remember when the doctor was telling my (former) wife and I about possible complications. She made it very clear that the breech situation would be quite unpleasant (I am being VERY euphemistic) for the mother. Fortunately, that did not happen in our case.
Oh, well. That is all over. On to the happy, maddening, scary, exciting, exhausting, wonderful years of childhood.
By the way, as far as your father-in-law is concerned: If he does not bring up anything, leave it alone. If he seems to want to start an argument, say something like this:
ìIíd like to concentrate on enjoying my new daughter and your new granddaughter right now. However, if you want to know more about how I feel on that subject, I can recommend some articles that express beliefs like mine in much clearer detail than I could. If you want, I can find them and give them to you later.î
Chances are, he wonít pursue it. However, if he does, just find something that you can recommend and pass it to him. That way, you wonít need to ìbattleî about it.
Blessings,
Jerry |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 7:07 pm: | |
Hannah, congratulations! Now we know why you've been "missing" for awhile. I'll pray for your father-in-law. In fact, I'll be praying for you and Dave as well. Seeing the parents for the first time since leaving and having that large "elephant" in the middle of the room around which you tiptoe can be difficult and uncomfortableóand maybe even guilt-producing for Dave. I am praying that the two of you will stand strong in the Lord and that God will glorify himself through your marriage on this trip.
BTW, Walter Martin did not call Adventism a cult in his Kingdom of the Cults. In fact, as a result of his research, the Adventists wrote Questions on Doctrine to put an acceptable Christian "spin" onto Adventist doctrines. Having that book in printhad the effect of reassuring the Christian community that SDAs were legitimate. Many Adventists, however, felt the church "sold them down the river" with that book. It did not represent true Adventism, and and much of the membership felt betrayed. It did not uphold the "peculiar" practices and beliefs publicly. The book has since gone out of print.
Before he died, Walter Martin began re-visiting the question of Adventism. I understand that he had a person at his Christian Research Institute collecting new data about the church. Martin, however, died before he could publish his updated findings. I have seen a video of a series of interviews with Walter Martin and William Johnsson, now editor of the Review, done on the John Ancherberg (or something like that!) relgious TV show. These interviews were conducted many years post-Kingdom of the Cults-the late 70s, I believe. Martin was pointed and relentless in questioning Johnsson about salvation, the atonement, the finished work of Jesus, etc. Martin was well equipped with a dossier of quotes from EGW and also from other church authors.
Johnsson could not satsifactorily answer the questions, and Martin pointedly told him he was not removing the doubt about Adventist orthodoxy. Johnsson was uncomfortable but immovable. He would not lie and declare a position blatantly contrary to Adventism, but he would not give straight answers. I have heard from a person who was acquainted with the Martin family that Martin intended to publish a new conclusion about Adventism, but he died before he did it.
Gy the way, Lydell--I love your son's response to the 7th-day bumper sticker!
Praise God for truth!
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 9:24 pm: | |
Is "Questions on Doctrine" available to be read on an Internet site? |
Bob (Bob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 9:33 pm: | |
Susan_2: "Questions on Doctrine" is on-line at the following link. (This is an SDA site):
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/index.htm
Bob |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:40 am: | |
Ah, now I got to the picture, Hannah. Pretty baby! You did a good job. Ahhh, yes, sitting and cuddling the baby. What a precious feeling!
You know, brand new grandbabies have a way of thorougly distracting grandparents. So maybe there won't be a huge problem on the visit after all. Hannah, I know it might seem a bit overwhelming to talk to this person who, as you say, is "intelligent". But, I think there is something that you should keep firmly in mind. In this one area, he only THINKS he is intelligent, while in fact, he is ignorant of the truth of the gospel. So your task is not really to answer some intellectual arguments, but to place what you have to say in simple words to get the point across. As was said above, find a handful of scriptures that most clearly say what you have to say (I John 5:11-13 is a good one) and just concentrate on learning those and just let the Holy Spirit prompt you on what to say otherwise.
I always tell people to flatly refuse to go into "the Catholic church changed the day of worship" bull. The answer there is "Actually, I never give a thought to anything the Catholic church does. Instead, I look to the Lord for my guidance." |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 3:51 pm: | |
Good advice, Lydell..."I look to the Lord for my guidance." That's a great response1
Colleen |
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