| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have been reading your discussions fow quite awhile now. But, until now I was unable tp join in because I had been using the machines at the county library and they have a block on them to prevent the user from partisipating in discussions on-line. I bought my own machine just last week so it's all cool now. I will share a bit of history and then we will go from there. But, first I think there are several folks on here whose names I recognise from the Central California area. Anyone on here remember Rev. Ron Torrano from the Fresno Central SDA church? Now some history-I was mostly raised SDA. I say mostly because my parents weren't too loyal to any denomination as they were/are loyal to the 7th-day, Sabbath. As a kid we frequently would also attend The Worldwide Church of God and after Garner Ted got kicked out by his daddy we would go to his church, The Church of God, International. We also frequented the Seventh-day Church of God. I didn't much like any of those churches but I was a kid so I went without complaining. I have a cousin who is elderly now but as a very young mab he joined the 7th-day Baptist. I always liked it when I could go with him to church. I attended Fresno Adventist Academy in grades 3,4,5 and a few months of 12th. I attended Monterey Bay Academy in 11th grade. I honestly enjoyed attending Fresno Central when Rev. Torrano pastored there and after he got fired or resigned (whatever) I continued attending where he pastored at Valley Community Church. Then I relocated and I attended the 7th-day Baptist regurally for around six years. The minister and his family had to move to the other end of the United States and since there were only around 15 people that met together each week the congreation was fallen apart. For two years now I have been very involved with St. John's Lutheran (ELCA). I love it there. I truly believe the Good Lord sent me there. However, ever since my mother, who is elderly and relies on me for transportation, found out that i attend "a Sunday keeping church" live has been a bit more difficult. Seems like every Sunday morning now there is some errand that must be taken care of. I don't like to turn her down but I have been telling her that is not a good time for me and we'll do the errands later in the day or another day. Then, I can't think of anything more depressing than the SDA (or JW) teaching on death. My dad passed away two weeks ago and I wish my mom could have peace in her heart with the belief that Daddy is with Jesus now. But, what I hear is incredible greiving while she says things about looking forward to seeing him at the resurrection and being together on The New Earth. I did go with her to church last Saturday. What really struck me was that during the congreational singing NO ONE SINGS! It's like mummys sitting in the pews. Well, hopefully we will get acquainted as time goes by. Oh, by the way, I have a brother-in-law who is a Baptist minister and a brother-in-law who is a JW minister, although the JW's don't use the word minister. They have their own terms but it is esentially the same position. Those two are my husbands brothers. Plus, my husband has an aunt and then her offspring who are all SDA. It's weird. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
wow susan, Sounds like you have quite a variety there! Welcome! I'm glad you're here. Does your husband attend church with you? You're right about the mummies--ha! Glad to be delivered from the congregation of the dead, Sabra | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
hi, sabra. no, my husband has not yet attended services with me. i do though believe he soon will. he knows the minister quite well and in fact, he is the minister that married us just in august. so, we are still newlyweds. my husband was raised baptist until age 10 when his daddy died. then by the time he was 11 his mother had converted to jw. but, at age 17 he joined the army, where he stayed for the next 20 years. you know, some things about the sda and the jw are quite similar. both claim to be the one and only special chosen remenant for the last days. both are totally obsessed with watching world events and natural disasters and then when a horrible earthquake happens saying, "see, that proves i'm right. you'd best become sda/jw right now or you'll get yours"! both have the same teaching on death although the teachings about what happens at the resurrection differ. both have rules, rules and more rules! and, if i remember correctly at the beginning of the sda church they denied the Trinity. most sad's now say they believe the doctrine of the Trinity but somehow i get the feeling those are just words. reading sad literature and hearing sda preachers as well as lay persons i do not ever hear reference to the Trinity. i think they just don't get it. susan | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hello Susan. Welcome to the forum. You may already know this, but there is a very good reason why JW is so similar to SDA. They have many things in common because they both grew out of the Millerite Advent movement in the mid-1800ís. I am not entirely sure where the connection occurs. I believe it is correct to say that Charles Taze Russell (JW) was an associate of William Miller. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. This means that the beliefs and practices in both organizations came from a common history. Jerry | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I sat with my mon in the sda church last saturday. she hadn't been able to attend much for several years due to my dads failing health, which led to his death two weeks ago. anyway, in the sermon that the sda preacher dude gave he said that jesus was in the grave for three days and nights and until His resurrection (Jesus) no one, including Jesus himself knew if he would really be resurrected on the third day. He (the preacher) even went on to say that at the time of Jesus's death there was the possibility of Jesus being dead in the grave for eternity. Frankly, I think that belief is a tad bit of blasphomy as Jesus said he'd arise in three days, as did Jonah. Also, that sort of teaching totally undermines the significance of the story of The Immaculate Conception. Has anyone else ever heard such a cornball thing in an adventist church or from sda people? and, all those folks in the pews just soak it up. Is that truly the sda understanding? | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Susan, How appropriate that I posted a question pertaining to the days of Jesus in the grave on another thread here. I too have heard in the past that Jesus didn't truly know whether he would or would not be raised from the grave, but funny, I only hear that from the SDA people I know. The Bible plainly speaks contrary to that adventist view, as he said he lays down his life to take it back up again, as well as what you mentioned above, and how could he make the promises regarding him going to prepare a place for us and then to come and receive us unto himself. How could state that if there was even the most remote of chances that he would be in the grave forever more. Just my thoughts on the matter. Welcome to the forum, hopefully we'll get more of your posts in the future. Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
This is very much like the ěhouse built on sandî parable. Distortion built on distortion. It is so interesting to see how this relates to how SDAís view the Covenant with God. First, we see an emphasis on the Sabbath. Next, we see the incorporation of the Investigative Judgement concept, that is an uncertainty about judgement. Further, we see Jesus brought down from the Godhead to mere mortality wherein even He does not ěknow he is saved.î It is as if He did not have faith in Himself. Can you imagine that? I suspect that this view does not pervade all of the SDA church. However, it is another example of how things go far afield when a church starts with a false Gospel. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Growing up as an SDA I was taught that not only did Jesus not know His certain resurection, but even AFTER His resurection He did not know if His "sacrifice" would be accepted by the Father. This was the reason given for His statement to Mary not to hold onto Him as He had not yet "ascended to the Father". I was taught that he "ascended" between the time of His resurection and His first meeting with the deciples in the upper room that night. Only THEN was He assured of the acceptence of His "sacrifice" by the Father. I always wondered, even as a kid, "How could God not know?" These kind of doubts strike at the very issue of whether or not Adventists believe in the divinity of Jesus. They say they do, then take it away in the reality of their teachings. It is no wonder that as I grew up I never placed any significance to the Easter story or the celebration of the event as a Christian. In place of celebration we would mock those who did and say how foolish they were to follow "Roman pagen tradition". Of course, that didn't prevent us from using the pagen symbols of bunnies and colored eggs on the day. thank God that I now understand the real "Easter" story. Praise Him that he KNEW before the beginning of the world that He would come and that His mission would be a SUCCESS!! Thank Him that He did it all for me. In His debt <>< Thomas | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I am constantly aware of the dichotomy you mentioned, Thomas. My wife, who belongs to the more ěliberalî faction of the SDA church, asserts that Jesus is part of the Godhead (Trinity). However, she still says that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Since Michael is identified as ěone of the chief princesî (Dan.10:13), I always wondered: ěSo, how many princes equal to Jesus do you think there are?î | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
It is so wonderful to see you here, Susan. There has obviously been plenty happening in your life over the past several months!!! :-) Since my dad (& step-mom, too) left with Ron Torrano too, I have e-mailed him a copy of your post -- I'm sure he will be surprised by it! Welcome to the forum -- it's good to hear from you again. Den<>< | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dear Dennis, Yes, I recall your name and my mother speeks of your family. Small world. Yes, a lot has been happening in my life recently. It seems like years go by with nothing unusual happening then suddenly a lot of things happen at once. I have a prayer partner I meet with once per week and that is so wonderful for me. My child turned 18 on the 21st of last month. It was hard on him as on his birthday was his grandfathers memorial service. But,then only four days later he moved to Italy with my oldest son. But, back to the sda teachings-last Saturday in church with my mom I picked up an Amazing Facts booklet called, "Who Really is Michael the Archangle?" I read it this afternoon. Mind you, this booklet was just recently off the sda presses. It says without a doubt that Jesus and Michael the Archangle are one in the same. I had thought they'd gotten over that by now. To the best of my understanding only the sda and the jw teach this nonsense. I will tell you all right now, growing up the sda religion did not make any sense at all to me. I was always told I would understand when I grew up. Well, I grew up around 30 years ago and the older I get the less sense the sda religion makes! Do sda individuals, the lay members who are the pawns,the puppets,do they really even know or truly understand how warped the church doctrines are? Because with so many incredibly intelligent people who are sda members it seems to me they must not know or they'd not sign up to join or once they learn they'd quit. Susan | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Susan, A hearty FAF welcome! My wife and I also attended the Worldwide Church of God (here in Lincoln, Nebraska) for about six months while we were still clinging to the heresy of soul sleep and conditionalism. They supposedly are Evangelicals now, since 1995, but many WCG churches are still highly legalistic and some longtime members are still loyal to the late Herbert Armstong's views. Some WCG members were even thinking of attending the SDA Church because the simple Gospel so offended them in their own WCG congregation. Interestingly, we discovered that some older WCG members still will not participate in the Lord's supper more than once a year during Passover time. Sadly, many in their group have such a strong bond with their cultic past, that they do not grow spiritually. All in all, we failed in reforming both Adventism and the Worldwide Church of God. To their credit, the WCG is officially on the right track now. Both denominations have a hierarchical structure as well. Again, the WCG leadership must be given credit for trying to reform their organizational structure as well as their theology. Like in Adventism, the concept of grace alone, faith alone, Scripture alone, and Christ alone is difficult for them to understand. What a miracle of love and grace that any of us ever escaped from the snares of deception! In His own time, God called us out of Adventism. In awe of Calvary, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Welcome Susan!!! Glad you are here! You certainly brought up some teachings I remember all too well...(but could never understand either). :-) You are not alone! May God be with you, and protect you, as you deal with so many diverse religions. Janet | ||
| Gracehound (Gracehound) |
Welcome Susan, Glad your here. I'm just curious about your reference to FAA. I went to Fresno Central Church during 5, 6, and 7th grade and lived in Fresno from 82 or 83 to 85 or 86. Just wondering if I know you. If your comfortable doing so, drop an email to me at ephesians28to10@yahoo.com. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Susan, welcome to the forum! You're right, the Michael the archangel heresy is still an SDA teaching, although I don't think it's talked about a lot in most churches--at least not in California! Gracehound, it's good to see you post again! I continue to pray for you and your husband. How are things going for you? Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Susan, I went to FAA and FCC around the same time as Gracehound. Nobody ever told me why Torrano left, will somebody clue me in? Was it over doctrine? | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
According to what I've been told, it was because of his choice of whom to marry some time after his first wife died -- wife #2 is a Hair Dresser! The conference decided to 'put him out to pasture' in some backwater, little church out of the area, but his wife had just signed a 5-year lease on the property for her business that she could not get out of. They could not afford to move. This is second-hand info, as I was living near PUC by the time this happened -- but it comes from a family member who was very much a part of the situation (and who followed Ron to Valley Community), so I assume it to be reasonably accurate. Den | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Well, Dennis, I heard a totally different story about Pastor Ron. I attended Fresno Central rather regurally for the 12 year or so he ministered there. My parents and my friend, Karen even went more regurally than I did. Never once did any of us hear him quote from EGW or even give a sermon on any of the SDA "truths". He never had a sermon on the Investigative Judgement or any of the other so-called "special truths of the SDA'S". He tended to preach Sabbath after Sabbath for years upon years THE GOSPLE AS IN THE BIBLE! And, this I know, because I was sitting in the pews litening. He took a church that was falling apart and was in total disawary and got that 11 A.M. service so packed that they had to go to a double session on Saturday mornings. He would baptize anyone who wanted to be bapitzed believing that they wanted to belong to The Body of Christ (no necessarilly the body of SDA'S). I knew one lady (oh, horrors or all horrors!) still smoked cigerettes when Pastor Ron bapitzed her one Saturday morning at Fresno Central. I was surrprised about that and she tlod me Pastor Ron had no problem with it. He had told her (as I believe) that we first give our lives to Jesus and then His mightly power will see us through getting over what we need to overcome. I herd through the grapeine on the Central Valley that he ha been talked with by denomination higher-ups abot these infractions but he still continued teaching the Love of Jesus. Then when he married a beautition only less than several years after his wife #1 passed away, I guess that wa just too much for the conference to hanle. I understand he resigned, albeit under pressure. I believe I have never known a more fine and wonderful couple than Ron and Jan. I speek with them on the phone occassionally. I dearly love each of them. Here's something funny-about 20 years go my family and me ran into Ron and Jan at Disneyland! What a small world! Wht I aid here I did not hear from either of them, just lip-flapping, if you know what I mean. I do belive though when the SDA denomination lost Rev. Torrano they lost probably the best pastor that denomination ever had. | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
What year did all this happen in Fresno? My brother used to teach at the academy there so I was curious when it happened in relation to his time at the school. Steve | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I think around 1989-1990. Someone confirm or contradict me, please. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sorry I didn't catch this earlierÖI was talking in church with one of our forum members this morning, and this individual pointed out that there has been a continuing discussion about a particular person this week. Susan, I want to thank you for your positive character affirmation of this man and his wife. I do want to say, however, that this forum is not a venue for discussing the details of a private person's circumstances. This whole issue of what we might as well bluntly label "gossip" is an issue I've been becoming increasingly aware of as I have moved away from Adventism and become involved in a healthy Christian church. Our women's ministries leader, Elizabeth Inrig, makes all of the group leaders sign a statement of certain values which we commit to honor, and one of those is that we will not gossip. She says this: If one of you has a concern about another, instead of discussing it, offer to go with the concerned party to the original person and discuss the problem together. Even though the above discussion ended positively, we want to keep this forum a place where people do not find their lives discussed on a world-wide venue! I'm not suggesting that we can't quote people or refer to them when the comments are germane to the general discussion. I'm only suggesting that personal comments and questions about others' personal details be addressed with the people themselves. Thanks, everyone! I continue to pray for us all! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
That's very good advice and I will take it to heart. In fact, there are numerous examples in which Bible authors admonish US to watch our tongue wagging. I went to church with a friend of mine two weeks ago because they had a guest speeker she wanted me to hear and he said when he does family therapy he has each meber of the family draw a family portrate. Then he blooks to see if the family members draw themselves and each other with big mouths and little ears, which is generally the case. He then gives therapy until the family draws their picures with little mouths and big ears. Good advice. | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Colleen, Good point and well stated. Thanks for reminding us to be accountable for our tongues. Dennis |
