| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thank you for explaining God's compelling us so clearly, Dennis. The element (for want of a better word) that to me makes the dreadfulness of the fall so clear and irresversible is the idea of the eternal soul or spirit of man. Adventists say humans have only body plus breath--the air in our noses. The Bible clearly says the essential part of us goes to God when we die. The air in our noses is not US. Air going to God would not be a condition that would be better than being alive on earth, yet Paul clearly said that he would rather leave and be with God. If sin is that spirit being ripped apart from God in an irreparable rift, then sin is much worse than being born with bad genes and bad tendencies. If our souls are ripped apart from the source of LIFE, then they certainly cannot choose life without outside intervention, because they are dead in sin. I am coming to believe more and more that the underlying belief behind the doctrine of soul sleep is one of the most insidious and deadly of SDA teachings. It affects our understanding of the nature of man, the nature of Christ, and the nature of salvation. If sin was really a tangible, spiritual rip that separated earthly life from the Creator, then a mere decision on the part of God to forgive us (as many SDAs say)would not be enough. As Paul also says, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Sin required death. Without death, there could be no life for fallen humanity. I don't begin to understand all the implications of Jesus' death and our salvation, but I do know that as I have come to understand that God brought my dead soul to life--not merely offered me forgiveness for a bad genetic inheritance--what Jesus did and God's call on my life have grown in power and significance to me. I really was born with no hope, and God called me to himself. Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
I have difficulty in condemning Judas to eternal death--is there a place in Scripture that says he is lost??? Is his sin of greed, which heighten to a despair of such depth, that he determined to take his own life, unforgivable? Is that sin not included in those that were judged on the cross? Is taking one's own life really any different or any worse than killing someone else? Does the fact that one does not repent from a sin prior to death condemn them to hell? As I see it, Judas was not "out of salvation" he was "out of fellowship" with God. When we are out of fellowship with God spiritual words can not be comprehended. I think the difference between Judas and Peter was: Peter was going to "turn back around", and live the spiritual life again, before he physically died; Judas wasn't. Judas got out of fellowship through greed and he never turned back around before he died, he remained "in sin". He died the sin unto death--I don't think this means eternal death of the soul but rather that he just kept on sinning until he physically died. I agree, Judas forsake Christ; but did Christ forsake Judas? I'm not saying you are wrong to suppose that Judas is eternally lost--I just haven't seen where Scripture "says" that. Is the act of betrayal unforgivable unless one returns to the spiritual life before physical death? Does the act of betrayal cancel out belief? Is there somewhere that says Judas did not believe? Did Judas' actions reflect his disbelief that Jesus was the Christ? Or did they rather acknowledge that he WAS THE CHRIST? If the latter, then Judas simply used the diety of Christ for his own personal profit? Is Judas' betrayal the antithesis of belief? Or is Judas' betrayal (Judas' sin) the antithesis of righteousness? The former will bring him under the wrath of God; the latter will find him under no judgement at all. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Lori, I thought the same as you until I studied more into Judas. He was a theif, stealing the money from the ministry. I don't think he was ever a disciple because he loved Jesus, I think he was in it for his own personal gain. (Like some deceiving "prophets" of our day) Then the fact that Jesus called him the son of satan. I don't believe that a person can lose their salvation so I don't think he was ever saved. He could be one of the ones who did miracles in Jesus' name, that cries out "Lord, Lord" and He doesn't know them. It does puzzle me that he repented to the priest and hung himself, maybe out of shame or fear of being prosecuted (?) maybe as an escape from himself, realizing that he was evil and had fulfilled his purpose from the foundation of the world. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
There actually is disagreement among evangelicals about the fate of Judas. There are some who teach at seminaries on the liberal end of evangelicalism who say that Judas was forgiven and will be saved. Others say that scripture is clear that he won't be. I'm willing to say that I don't know for sure. I lean, however, toward thinking he is probably lost. There are a couple of reasons for that thought; one of the most compelling is Matthew 26:24. It says, "The Son of Man will gojust as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Again, I can't be dogmatic about it, but I do tend to think scripture supports the idea that he never had been truly converted in his heart. I'm grateful to be able to leave his heart and mine and my loved ones' hearts in God's hands, though, because he does know absolutely whether or not we are repentant and willing to embrace truth. We just can't always know that about one another. I praise Jesus for giving us security in him! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
MORE THOUGHTS ON JUDAS One of the hallmarks of acceptable hermeneutics is to be perpetually vigilant that our views and theories do not, of themselves, impose a Biblical interpretation. In other words, we must not read into a passage something that is NOT there. To say that Judas was a "son of perdition" from the beginning is not judgmental nor arbitrary. To say that Judas gave mere lip service to Jesus, never experienced regeneration, never repented, was chosen solely to fulfill Scripture, and never had eternal security is clearly in the context of all passages pertaining to him. Even though Judas was called, the Bible does not give the least indication that he ever made his calling and election sure. Jesus did not petition God the Father, in an intercessary prayer, for Judas like he did for Peter. To say that Jesus' confidence in Judas returning to Him was lacking is most Scriptural. The crux of this discussion is highlighted in the High Priestly prayer of Jesus, "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished BUT THE SON OF PERDITION, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" (John 17:12 NASB). God is Sovereign--his ways are not our ways. Throughout sacred recorded history, God at times employed evil persons (i.e., the Pharoah of Egypt, Witch of Endor, Judas Iscariot, etc.) to accomplish His divine and righteous will. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Derrell (Derrell) |
Dennis, are you talking about predestination? Are you saying that Peter was predestined to salvation, and Judas to being lost? Derrell | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Sabra, you mentioned in regard to the last topic here,..."I don't believe that a person can lose their salvation so I don't think he was ever saved..." Could you explain more on this? Thanks so much, Janet | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Good morning Janet - Please know how much God loves you and be secure in your salvation! He will never let you go! I prayed this morning that God would give you peace and security about your salvation. Have a good day and weekend! Love and prayers, Carol | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Janet, I was going to Romans to post a scripture but I opened my Bible right to John 10.  So, guess the Lord wanted me to post this one: John 10:27,28,29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know then, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one else is able to snathch them out of My Father's hand. Hallelujia!! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'll tell you how our pastor explains the idea that a person (such as Judas) cannot lose his salvation, therefore he was not ever truly saved. He says people can be convicted intellectually that Jesus is who he says he is, and they can even give lip service to Jesus. But if they resist surrendering their hearts to Him and experiencing the new birth, they are not saved. A text from John that supports this understanding is John 12:42-43: "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God." People can truly believe in Jesusóeven the devils believe and trembleóbut not allow Him to change their hearts. When we give Jesus our hearts, when we say "Yes" to him and allow him to have his sovereign way in our livesónothing can ever snatch us out of his hand. But if a person holds back and shrinks from truth and conviction, if a person refuses to confess Jesus as Lord because of fear of loss or shame, that person is not saved. He has not allowed Jesus to change his heart and bring him into spiritual life. Judas, I believe, followed Jesus as long as he had hope that Jesus would effect a takeover. His heart, however, never let go of its desire for power and fame and wealth. He did not let Jesus give him a new heart. Derrell, as far as predestination goes, I believe that it is a biblical teaching, but I also believe that we can say Yes or No to Jesus. In a paradoxical way, I believe both are true. The fact that we can't make the two mesh completely is related to the fact that we are limited by a three-or-four-dimensional existence that limits our view of reality. God dwells in infinite (at least to us) dimensions. He is outside of time and can see it all at a glance. Time exists inside eternity, and it has a beginning and an end. I have come to the place where I am comfortable living with the two in some tension. The Bible is so clear that God sovereignly chooses people and ordains events that I have to take those passages seriously. If I don't, I am refusing to honor the Bible as God's inerrant word. I have actually felt more comfortable about God's omniscience since accepting the idea that He really can ordain in advance while still allowing us to say Yes or No to him. Having a truly sovereign God has taken a huge burden off my shoulders. I really can trust him, no matter what happens. If we believe that human life is the ultimate value in the universe, we are destined to be frustrated by doubt and despair. If, however, God himself is the ultiamte value in the universe, then I can trust that the things that happen on earth are not random or vain. God has a sovereign purpose, and above all he is glorifying himself and preserving the souls of his people, no matter what happens physically. I keep remembering the four-part description of God's essence which Elizabeth Inrig teaches: God is sovereign; God is good; God wastes nothing; God redeems everything we submit to him. I am grateful beyond words to believe in a sovereign God who knew me from the creation of the world! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Thanks so much for all the comments---they have been most helpful! | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Thank you Carol and Sabra, and everyone else! I was wondering about "once saved, always saved" (I know I am meandering off of the topic a bit...sorry) I mean, if someone is truly saved, can they turn and be lost? I know it would be extremely hard to turn from such a wonderful God...but is it possible? Thanks, Janet | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hello all, I was reading through what I've missed lately and have really enjoyed reading all the different topics. I wanted to ask a question about this: On October 23rd, Dennis posted in part: "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU, THAT YOUR FAITH SHOULD NOT FAIL; and WHEN you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethern" (Luke 22:31,32). end. My reading of this particular Scripture in the NIV, tells me that the "you" referred to by Jesus is plural. What you you all make of this? Anyone. Thanks in advance and God Bless, your sister in Christ, Jesus, Denise or DtB=Denise the Berean | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
I still can not, with sound conscious, consign Judas Iscariot to eternal death. One reason being the very definition of what his name was associated withóBetrayer. In order to betray someone you must have been loyal to them. Illustration: I was loyal to the Adventist church for 30+ yearsóI have betrayed them. If I had merely been amongst them and never had allegiance with them I would have been called a spy, an agent of the enemy, a scout. But to actually be denoted as a betrayer mandates that I had to have been a devoted, loyal follower, first. Possibly Judasí betrayal began at the feeding of the 5,000. The multitudes of people present there were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah due to the miraculous feeding of them all. This event caused them to recall the Scriptures that had prophesied of this and they recognized him as deity. However, they were looking for him to be an earthly kingóthey wanted to take him by force and 'make him King'. They only had the earthly view of a kingdom; they did not comprehend the concept of a heavenly kingdom. Judas had this same misconception, Judas fully expected the Lord, in response to this great public adoration, to proclaim Himself King of Israel and then set-up the kingdom that Judas and his fellow apostles had spent two years proclaiming. The disciples as a whole did not understand the message of eating the flesh and drinking the blood that followed this event; the masses turned away and the disciples grumbled because they did not understand; they were carnal and their eyes did not see the mission of the Messiah but rather they saw their own personal desire for political deliverance from the Romans, not the spiritual deliverance that Christ was bringing. Does this misunderstanding constitute unbelief in Jesus as Messiah? No, it rather is a misunderstanding of His teachings based on carnality. Those who are carnal cannot understand spiritual phenomena. This is why the Lord didnít debate with these people. They werenít on the same level with Him and it was impossible for them to comprehend. He just continued to fire out truth. When people hear truth there are two reactions---you are positive and you cast out human reasoning or you are negative and you reject the teaching. Does rejecting a teaching of Christ because you did not understand it denote that you reject belief in Him as the Savior? For 12 years, I remained loyal to the Adventist church for one reasonóI still believed the Sabbath message. That was the only thing that held me there; I had rejected E.W. and the investigative judgment and many other doctrines but still there remained the one important issue that kept me thereóthe Sabbath--even though I wasnít necessarily keeping it, I still believed it. And this one thing kept me tied to it---I can not say that I was following the Adventist Church because, in many ways I abhorred it. But I still identified myself with it on the basis of this one thing. On the basis of the Sabbath I was still very much a SDA. Could not the same be true with Judas; could he not reject certain teachings and still be held to Christ by one thingóthe belief that he was God and that he came to save mankind? If this is not possible then all of humanity will be lost because I doubt there is anyone who has fully understood every concept, every principle of the thinking of Christ? To me, the designation of Judas as a betrayer and a traitor of the Lord is a clear indication of his salvation. A person can only betray those to whom he was once loyal. A traitor cannot become disloyal to an enemy, for he never was loyal in the first place. The actions of a soldier against the army of the enemy are not those of a traitor. He is classified as an infiltrator, a spy, or a mole, but not a traitor to his country. The British did not hang Nathan Hale because he was a traitor to England but because he was a spy for the Colonials. When Benedict Arnold betrayed the Continental Army he was not classified by the Colonials as a spy but as a traitor. We therefore regard Nathan Hale as a national hero and Benedict Arnold as a dastardly villain. Nathan Hale was not involved in treason but Benedict Arnold was. Both were members of the Continental Army. At one time both were loyal. Nathan Hale remained loyal and at his execution only regretted that he had but one life to lose for his country. Benedict Arnold became disloyal and, after his betrayal was discovered, deserted to the other side. So, is Judas a betrayer as the Scripture says or is this an error in the Word of God? If Judas was a believer who misunderstood a message and became disappointed and began to turn away from following Christ because Christ wasnít doing what he thought he was going to then this means that we can be snatched from Gods hand and there is no security in believing in Christ. It means that you can be lost after you have believed; it means that salvation is based upon your not failing into deception! It means that the forces of evil always have the upper hand; it means that being sealed until the day of redemption means nothing. It means the seal can be broken by deception and that being in Godís hand is something akin to teetering perilously on the edge of a vast ravine and any movement at all will cast you down to the depths of eternal hell. So, I ask you, did Scripture err when it designated Judas as a betrayer? | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Denise, Luke 22:31,32 in various translations: "Jesus said, "Simon, listen to me! Satan has demanded the right to test each of you, as a farmer does when he separates wheat from the husks. But Simon, I have prayed that your faith will be strong. And when you have come back to me, help the others" (CEV). "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" (ESV). "And said the Lord, Simon, Simon, lo, Satan demanded to have you, for the sifting [you] as wheat; I but besought for thee, that may not fail thy faith; and thou when hast turned back confirm thy brethern" (Interlinear Greek-English NT) "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to have all of you, to sift you like wheat. But I have pleaded in prayer for you, Simon, that your faith should not fail. So when when you have repented and turned to me again, strengthen and build up your brothers" (New Living Translation). "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (NIV). "Simon, Simon! Look, Satan has got his wish to sift you all like wheat; but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in turn must strengthen your brothers" (New Jerusalem Bible). "Simon, Simon! Listen! Satan has received permission to test all of you, to separate the good from the bad, as a farmer separates the wheat from the chaff. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you turn back to me, you must strengthen your brothers" (TEV). "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to test all of you as a farmer sifts his wheat. I have prayed that you will not lose your faith! Help your brothers be stronger when you come back to me" (NCV). Note: The above passages clearly, distinctly, and specifically refer to Peter. Notice that Jesus "pleaded in prayer" for Peter. This denotes eternal security for Peter, whereas Judas did NOT have the same earnest intercession by Jesus. On the other hand, Jesus' parting words to Judas, at the Last Supper, were: "What you are about to do, do quickly" (John 13:27 NIV). As a human being I might PREFER that God give his mercy to everyone equally, but I may not DEMAND it. If God is not pleased to dispense his saving mercy to all men, then I must submit to his holy and righteous decision. God is never, never, never obligated to be merciful to sinners. That is the point we must stress if we are to grasp the full measure of God's grace. The real question is why God is inclined to be merciful to anyone. His mercy is not required, yet he freely gives it to his elect. He gave it to Jacob in way he did not give it to Esau. He gave it to Peter in a way he did not give it to Judas. We must learn to praise God both in his mercy and in his justice. When he executes his justice he is doing nothing wrong. He is executing his justice according to his righteousness. To be sure, stating our assurance of salvation may be an act of arrogance. If our confidence in our salvation rests in a confidence in ourselves, it is an act of arrogance. If we are sure we are going to heaven because we think we deserve to go to heaven, then it is unspeakably arrogant. With respect to the assurance of salvation there are basically four kinds of people in the world. (1) There are people who are not saved who know that they are not saved. (2) There are people who are saved who do not know that they are saved. (3) There are people who are saved who know that they are saved. (4) There are people who are not saved who "know" that they are saved. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Hello Dennis, Thank you for your explanation and the many different translations. There is still this question in my head though. The first "you" in that passage denotes a plural usage according to Strong's Concordance #5209, (which is coming from 5210), matching it with the Pocket Interlinear NT that is numerically coded to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. However, as to the other "yous" in that same Passage it is denoting a singular form, specifically to Simon, according to Strong's #4675 coming from #4771, which in turn directs us back to 5209 for a plural usage. Am I missing something here? I feel that there is a strong possibility that I'm not seeing something that should be very clear to me. What is it? Thank you in advance for help with this particular Passage and the use of the Concordance, along with the Pocket Interlinear NT that is numerically coded to the Concordance. Blessings to you for your patience. your sister in Christ our Lord, DtB | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Hey Lori, 2 Peter 2:20,21 says, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered them." God Bless, Janet | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I read Luke 22:31-32 as part of Jesus' explanation to the disciples of the coming fullfiment of Passover and the instituting of the New Covenant. He is telling them that he is conferring on them a kingdom. (v. 28). He then turns to Peter and says his "sifting" statement, and as soon as he says that, Peter declares he's ready to go to death with Jesus. Jesus replies by telling him that he will deny Him. I understand Jesus to be specifically telling Peter that Satan wants to destroy all the disciples. But because Jesus knows how miserably and completely Peter will betray him in just a few hours, he also lets Peter knowóBEFORE it has complete meaning for Peteróthat He has already asked God to strengthen Peter so that his faith will not fail when he realizes how badly he has sinned. He even lets Peter know, by way of his statement to him in v. 32, that Peter will repent. He tells him IN ADVANCE that he is to go back to his brothers and strengthen themósomething he will be more profoundly equipped to do than if he had not betrayed Jesus and subsequently repented. Like almost all prophecies, this one also was meant to be understood at the time it would happen and not before. Peter could not have known exactly what Jesus meant. But after he betrayed Jesus and went out and wept bitterly, he would remember those words of Jesus and know that Jesus had already forgiven him and had already prayed for his redemption and restoration. This statement would give Peter the courage he needed to return and not to let the fear of his brothers' possible rejection and judgment paralyze him. Yes, I do see the statement in v. 31 as Jesus saying all the disciples were Satan's target. But he used that fact as a lead-in to reassure Peter in advance that although he would undoubtedly feel as if he had crossed the point of no return, Jesus knw in advance that he would betray Him, and Jesus had prayed in advance for Peter's faith not to fail. In fact, in advance Jesus had commissioned Peter to return and not to act on his fear of failure. And, Lori, I do understand your dilemma about Judas. Again, we absolutely cannot judge another person's destiny because we are not privy to the motives of their heartsóeven we ourselves do not understand the motives of our own hearts. (see Jeremiah 17:9-10) Jesus' words, as Dennis quoted from John 17:12 above, however, do suggest that Judas is lost. Regarding your question about losing salvation, though, I want to say that I do not believe that a person truly born-again can be snatched from the Father's hand. Your point about the fact that a betrayer must first be loyal is interesting. On the surface, I agree. But I believe that a true traitor is a person who was never as loyal to another as he was/is to himself. Benedict Arnold was a member of the Continental Army, yes. But that fact did not make him loyal. If he had truly been loyal to the colonies, no inducement, no matter how attractive, would have caused him to betray the army and to move his loyalty to the other side. Yes, a person (such as Peter) can betray someone to whom they are truly loyal. But such a person will act on their deep conviction of sin and repent. A person such as Benedict Arnold and, apparently, Judas, will perhaps feel deep regret that they misjudged the situation or that they got themselves involved in a bad situation they can't escape, but their regret is not that of breaking the heart of someone who loves them and of hurting someone they love. They do not publicly repent and return to the loved one and beg forgiveness. You're right; betrayal implies original loyalty. But overt loyalty does not necessarily reveal the hearts TRUE condition. Benedict Arnold and Judas apparently had themselves in their heart's #1 position, not the fledgling USA or Jesus, respectively. Loyalty to the colonies and to Jesus seemed to be good things for them at the beginning, but when Arnold and Judas received offers that appeared more lucrative personally, their ultimate loyalties to themselves surfaced, and they betrayed the external foci of their loyalties in favor of attempting to promote themselves financially or politically. When their stated loyalties seemed more demanding and less rewarding than they had imagined, they looked out for #1 instead of remaining loyal no matter what the cost. That is how I see it at this point, anyway! I thank God for His word and for the fact that he continus to reveal himself to us! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
John 6:64:But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Says he didn't believe. Consider an internal spy. He comes in, acts like he is a part of an organizational, becomes involved, fits in, goes along with, and then in the end he will betray that organization. Doesn't mean he had any loyalty, he had a purpose from the beginning and the people he's involved with are betrayed, though he had no loyalty to them in the first place. Lori, just because you were deceived into being loyal to a religion doesn't mean you betrayed it. They betrayed YOU, by feeding you false information. You just saw the light and got out. Kind of like if you marry a creep who lies to you and mistreats you and you divorce him, you aren't betraying him, he's betrayed you and you're getting out. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Thanks for you thoughts concerning Judas. I really do appreciate your sharing with me. I have placed my understandings before God and I will leave it to him to lead me in the right direction. |
