| Author | Message | ||
| Wally (Wally) |
Hello all - I'm not sure if it was on this thread or another, but someone mentioned recently that Dr. B has acknowledged that the Sabbaths of Colossians 2: 16-17 do refer to the seventh-day Sabbaths, not special feast days. Did he write about this in a newsletter or another place that I could read his comments? I obviously understand that his views on the Sabbath have not changed because of this, but I am interested in seeing his comments nonetheless. Thanks and God's Blessings to all. Wally | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Bacchiocchi. From Sabbath to Sunday, p. 358 "We conclude therefore that Paul in Colossians 2:16 is not condemning abstinence from food and drink or the use of sacred days such as the Sabbath, but the wrong motive involved in their observance. What Paul attacks is the promotion of these practices as auxiliary aids to salvation, and as means to gain protection from the 'elements of the universe'" This was all I could find easily. It is a little vague. However, when he refers to ėthe Sabbathî there is no doubt that he means the seventh day weekly Sabbath. He does say that Paul is attacking the use of the Sabbath (weekly) observance and other things as ėauxiliary aids to salvation.î However, we know Dr. B. thinks we must observe the Sabbath in order to receive salvation. The euphemism he employs allows him ėtechnicallyî to admit this without giving up the whole argument. Mental twister, anyone? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Just got his latest newsletter which was supposed to be about the 1260 days prophecy. He is being led to refute the EGW interpretation but he is receiving a lot of hate mail from SDA's saying he is being unfaithful to the SDA religion. He is so worried about the negative mail that he postponed his thoughts on the 1260 days. Please join me in praying for him. I know the Holy Spirit is revealing somethings to him but the veil has not been lifted--yet. He has recently been saying that maybe all of her interpretaion wasn't correct and maybe there are some other things to look into and just maybe she can't be considered inerrant. He is on the right track, there's just a lot of track behind him that is influencing him. | ||
| Lee (Lee) |
Hi Again, Could someone offer advice on books to read that help to refute SDAism? Also, I have read that many SDA theologians, pastors, and professors question long held beliefs. Can someone share names and what the disagreements are. If this is true, How does the SdA Church disregard it's own Intelligencia. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oh, where to start, where to stop. I will name just one. Dr. Raymond Cottrell http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html This addresses Investigative Judgement. There are sooooooooo many others. I personally know one current pastor who disputes IJ. However, he has had no documents published, so I will not cause him harm by naming him. However, I will let anyone else chime in. "How does the SdA Church disregard it's own Intelligencia?" Answer: Constantly with a side order of defamation. Jerry | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Just an observation about dissenters in the SDA church: As is true in many repressive or cultic organizations, whenever a member (of whatever stature and standing) disagrees publicly with an important doctrine rule or practice of the organization, the most likely outcome is ostracism accompanied by vilification. This seems to be quite evident in the Seventh-day Adventist church. Most of the truly gifted, principled people who have honestly come to disagree with the core doctrines or unethical practices of the church have left the church. They do this whether it is of their own accord, voluntarily because of pressure, or by forced removal. This leads to the following situation: We can name several people who disagreed with core doctrines and, at the time, were full members of the church and sometimes were in very high positions. Some of them were among the most elite theologians and leaders of the church. More often than not these people either are now silenced or out of the church. However, rarely did that end the matter. If the person did not ėrepentî and keep silent, slander was usually said against them. ėWalter Rea is such an ANGRY man.î ėDesmond Ford is very CONCEITED and self-promoting.î ėD. M. Canright knew HIS SOUL WAS LOST.î ėDavid Dennis is like OSAMA BIN LADEN.î ėDale Ratzlaf is . . . . .î You fill in the blank. They have literally published fake books about some people. (ėI was Canrightís Secretaryî) All this is to say that there are a large number dissenters in the church who (God bless them and keep them) cannot bear this kind of abuse. We can easily point out the people who were in the church, but now are out. You should realize that this is just the ėtip of the icebergî when it comes to the total number of people in the church who have trouble with the teachings or practices of the church. God watches over us all, Jerry | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
This just seemed to be the best thread to put this message with, so here I am. Lately I've been having some really good discussions with my mom, or so I thought. We'd been discussing the new covenant and as a general guide I'd given her the new covenant piece written by Clay Peck. Initially I thought my mom would give it a fair look and it would open her eyes at least a little bit. But she still hasn't read it yet and has been reading the New Testament, which is good and what I recommended to her, but in saying so, I asked her if she would put aside any preconceived notions she had, put away all the adventist propaganda and the like, and she promised to do so. But even after going through and reading it, she still has such a veil over her mind and heart and it really frustrates me on one hand, saddens me on the other. I've been getting the same old adventist responses that nearly everyone on this board has mentioned so it isn't a surprise to hear them by any means but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating to a degree. So I guess this post is shaping up to be a vent more than anything else. Last weekend we talked about it and I was having her look at not just verses but entire chapters and such and she just stonewalled me and I'd ask her to read things and then tell me what she thought it said, and she'd just give the 'I don't know...' response. I have tried to ask the questions in a way to get her to think rather than having it seem as though I'm supplying my own ideas to her or anything, but she still has this idea that there is a moral law and ceremonial law that are seperate and unconnected, and she just refuses to see things any differently. I don't expect her to just change her outlook to match mine instantly but it is frustrating at times and I really need some prayers for patience and to do better of letting the Holy Spirit lead her and helping me to be able to help her in the way she needs best. Such a cultic hold that denomination has! It's truly a frightening realization when it finally dawns on a person how manipulative, warped, and cultic adventism truly is. I truly thank God for getting me out of that abusive system. Does anyone have any suggestions of more information and materials I could suggest to her that may be of help? She hasn't read the C. Peck piece yet but says she will so I'll take her at her word that she will. I also would like more material for her if that doesn't turn out to be what speaks best to her at this time. Thank you for any help and suggestions anyone may have in my time of frustration here. Steve | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Steve, Patience pal. You planted the seed, now let the Spirit do HIS job. You've planted the seed, now pray. From her perspective, you are probably pushing her. Let the Spirit LEAD her. If she will honestly read the New Testament, the Spirit will open her eyes. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors to get through, but He is God, after all. Love her. Pray for her. Answer her questions, when asked. You may be surprised the level of conviction she is under already! Remember we look at the outward appearence. God knows the heart. He loves her even more than you do. Trust Him! Soli Deo Gloria Thomas <>< | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Amen, Thomas! Steve: Just remember the struggle she is in. There is a lot of back and forth. So many regrets, suspicions, second thoughts. "What if this is just a deception?" . . . and so on. Peace in Christ Jerry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Steve, I second Jerry and Thomas. Right now she's under conviction but doesn't want to "see". Prayer is your "job" now. As for Adventist leaders who knowÖ In the late 80's Arthur Torres was the senior pastor of the Glendale City Church in Glendale, California. He taught a Sabbath School class, and one week he told us that when he was at the seminary (Andrews), he and his fellow seminarians were taught (he didn't say by whom) that the Adventist distinctives were not biblical. They were told, he said, that they were not to tell their eventual church members this fact because it would "destroy their faith." (I believe his time at the seminary was in the late 60s or early 70s.) I've no idea whether such a thing is breathed at the seminary today; I rather suspect it is not. But people KNOW and have known for a long time. I thank God for the light of his truth and his faithfulness to call us to himself. Colleen | ||
| Derrell (Derrell) |
Steve, it is indeed frightening for an Adventist just getting to the point where one begins tentatively looking at the possibility that our doctrines might be wrong. I can sympathise with your mother. For many years I have suspected that we could be wrong on some issues, yet I have been afraid to look into it. I might prove myself right and end up being lost when probation closes. I know that doesn't make much sense, but it's true. Last night I was up late studying Dale Ratzlaff's book on the Sabbath. For the first time I saw the distinction between the old and new covenants that you guys talk about. It made sense. I was so scared, I jumped into the shower and cried to God and prayed that if I was falling into a deception, he would save me from it. If the Sabbath is the seal of God and I am rejecting it, I am a lost man. The investigative jugement and E.G. White were not a problem to get rid of... they are not Biblical, but the Sabbath has always seemed so clear. I have always been taught that you dont ever look at something written by a deffector, nor do you associate with them in any way. Then stories are told about people who did, and how they fell into deception. I think that a fairly large percentage of us SDAs realize that if we open our eyes to what we already suspect, we will have to make some very hard decisions and since we don't have a firm foundation under our feet, our defense is harsh and illogical. Well, this forum is sometimes like a faceless therapist where a person can vent fears and frustrations without being subjected to harsh judgement. Thank you, Derrell | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Hi Steve. I was just reading about Paul and how he received the gospel. He said he "neither received it from man, nor was taught it, but that it came through the REVELATION of Jesus Christ." Gal. 1:11,12 Jesus said in John 6:44,45 that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him"...and that "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me" (Jesus) I said all that to let you know I will be praying for God to REVEAL Himself to your Mom and family, believing that He will draw them to Himself. And that you will be ready to answer questions as that happens, to be used of God to lead them to further truth. May God bless you and your family. Janet | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Well Derrell, we're praising God for His revelation to you (and sorry that it is shaking you right now). You know, one of the precious things about our teacher, the Holy Spirit, is that He tends to continually confirm what He wants us to believe as long as we are open and listening. I suspect you are in for a most interesting time of it. You are going to begin to see pieces in the scripture connecting up right and left. You are going to be so amazed at how things just make sense. Hang in there. Keep before you those scriptures that clearly refute the condemnation of adventism. Such as those on the seal of God being the Holy Spirit, and there being no condemnation in Christ. You have to get into renewing your mind. It's not an intantaneous process. And not something you can do hit or miss. Keep at it. I'm praying for you. Steve, it's incredibly frustrating to have the truth in hand and someone you love unwilling to listen or really examine it for themselves. And so we can get overanxious and try to feed them everything at once and end up just causing them to gag. As you think back I'm willing to bet that you can realize that there have been many many ways, some of them very small things, that the Lord did to break thru your wall of adventism. He's going to have to do the same for your mom, a little at a time. Steve, I really think the best thing you can do is make sure you spend some time listening to the Holy Spirit for the promptings of THE subject He wants you to address with your mom and IF and WHEN He wants you to speak about them. You can't guess what that THE subject is that will be the breakthrough for her. Only the Holy Spirit knows what the one adventist teaching is that she has always had a stirring doubt about, the one that she has kept carefully silent about for fear that she might be in jeapordy if she questions. It could be a topic that didn't particularly disturb you at all in your quest. We are all different. So wait on Him and ask Him for the discernment to pick up on any clues there might be around for that special topic for your mom. By the way, ya'll, my mother-in-law just accepted Christ and was baptized a couple weeks ago. We are still a bit in shock. My husband has been witnessing to her and praying for her for 30 years, and his brother has been at her for about 15. Now suddenly she goes to a Bible study and declares, "why, I never heard these things this way before"! HA!! It's just funny how a person has to hear the words spoken so many many times before we finally HEAR the words, ya know? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lydell, how exciting! It's a bit humbling, too, to hear your loved one say they've never heard these things before, isn't it? You've been saying them over and over, but one day the Holy Spirit removes the veil, and truth shines in like a brand-new gem. I guess God makes sure that we can never take the credit! Derrell, I know so well your fear of buying into a deception. I also know how compelling it is to discover what the Bible says for the first time. Those two reactions are in terrible tension, and your soul is a battleground. God's word is faithful, and God is faithful. When everything you know and everything you are seems about to shatter, he will not leave you comfortless. Lydell is right about the Bible beginning to hang together as a remarkably cohesive whole as you say "Yes" to Jesus and to the truth the Holy Spirit reveals to you from the Bible. You don't have to ignore or explain away passages anymore; you can actually read it, understand it because of the Holy Spirit's influence, and accept it! It's exciting. I am praying for you. I know that more and more things will come into focus for you, and you will begin to see inconsistencies at work and at church at the same time you are experiencing the reality of the God's presence in your life, and the dissonance will increase. You are entering an exciting and terrifying time. But God knows exactly what you need, and he will provide reassurance and confirmation of your position as His son in the ways that you need. Your new faith and understanding will also be tested, but you can stand confidently in the light of God's word and the reality of his presence. Steve, sometimes I have to hand my loved ones to Jesus and ask him to care for them for me because I can't make it happen. It's hard for me to leave them there, but God is helping me to trust him more and more in this area. He is working in your parents' lives, and he is using you. You just may not see exactly how he's doing it! Praising God for his faithfulness, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have a question? How come the SDA reliion aparently is so appealng to people in thjird world nations, especially India, etc.? Of course, I get my info from reading my moms Review's. I am involved with a Christian ministry alled, Pastors for Peace, by the way, they have a website so you might like to look them up. But anyway, I was on the phone with one of the pastors from the Chicago office one day and he told me a lot of folks from the really improverished nations are referred to as, "Rice Christians". I asked him what that hat term ment and he said the people are so poor that they will join whatever church "gives them the most rice" and that is a generic term meaning whatever they can get out of the organization that will improve their quality of life. He said a lot of the organizations that are poor themselves and go to present the truth of the gosple first can not compete with the denominations that "offer the most rice". Let me know what you all think about this? Are a lot of those third world converts to Adventistiam really Rice Christians? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Steve, I was in your boat about a year ago, now a year later no one has listened, except my Aunt who was never really an 'Adventist' but still attends her charismatic Adventist church. My cousin said something to me on the phone the other night that made me realize my whole family thinks I'm warped. They think I've been deceived and they are not going to listen to anything I have to say at this time anyways. You know what? They may NEVER listen. I let it go about 6 months ago and with a husband who is at best a hireling christian-one who remains faithful as long as God is blessing him-I came to the realization that I am alone with God in my faith. Church members are supportive but I have no real family apart from my kids and my brother Jesus and my heavenly father. I hang on to the promise that anyone who leaves his family and possesions to follow Christ will be blessed one hundred fold in this life and the eternal one to come. Remember, and don't forget, the Almighty God chose YOU! You are so special to Him that He rescued you out of that cult! Praise His Holy Name and live your life to be an example of Jesus' love in you. Sometimes we can push too much and push people away. Our lives are much more of a witness than our words. When the time comes and they ask questions, that will be the opportunity the Holy Spirit will use to convict them. We're all on a different journey. Blessings to you and peace, Sabra | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Thank you for all of your encouragement and support and advice. Really on that day I was feeling pretty frustrated about the situation but this evening when I got home from work, my mom called me after she got home from school and said she's going to really sit down and read throught the C. Peck piece on the new covenant, so I was very glad to hear that. I'm sorry to hear your family thinks you are the warped one, Sabra. I'm starting to feel the same way myself, I am the only one in my family who has broken the chains of adventism, and just in my immediate family I have 2 parents and a brother that teach for the adventist education system. They all think I'm off my rocker, but I have lately just appealed to them with the theme of "truth is truth, so if what you believe is 100% true, and you are so steeped in it, what are you afraid of by investigating it independently?' and I think that's striking a chord with my brother specifically right now. He's an academy science teacher and loves to investigate and research. I think most of the time he's just been content to go along with the status quo since it was all he ever knew but now challenged, I think he'll give it the best look. I've given him some ideas of what kinds of material he can look at and use in his research as well. I did a lot of praying last night to just help my family to have their eyes opened and to also grant me the peace of mind to leave it alone when that is what I should do and also to be able to say and assist with the areas I'm needed. I feel a lot more peaceful about it than I have in quite some time. I've got a new church I'm going to attend this week so I'm hoping it's a good one. I like the name of it, it's a local congregation and it's called "New Covenant Christian Church" so I'm intruiged. I think I'm going to close this up for now, I need to gather up my gear for a fossil hunt tomorrow. Thank you to everyone for your help and prayers. Steve | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Where do you go fossil hunting? Are you in California? WhenI was a kid we used to go fossil hunting in a hilly area in the Central Valley called Collinga. Out at my uncles ranch near Bakersfield we still could find real arrowheads. Can't find them anymore.Do you take the kids and grandkids snipe hunting, too? I loved to go out to the county dump with the b.b. guns and shoot the rats as a little girl, too. Never did kill any though. They were too big and too strong. I'd ping them and they'd scurry away. What fun! | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
As for fossil hunting, I'm not in CA. I did used to live in that state when I was a kid, up in northern california around Santa Rosa and still have family up there. When it comes to fossil hunting, I fossil hunt everywhere. I'm currently in Texas and hunt here mostly and I specialize in shark teeth. I have shark teeth from the size of 1mm in length to 4" in length, stuff from Texas, Florida, California, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, and Morroco. I do run a business on the side dealing in fossils, so it's a pretty active hobby for me. No kids or grandkids to take out on the hunt yet though. You mentioned Bakersfield and I actually have some fossils from there. There's Sharktooth Hill, and also Round Mountain that yield a lot of stuff. Hopefully this message doesn't get removed due to not being exactly on topic, sorry to diverge like this, just is a big time hobby of mine. Steve | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Oooh, just got a phone call from my mom, seems she was up quite a bit later than normal tonight. She got engrossed in the New Covenant piece from Clay Peck and seems as though she had a tough time putting it down! That makes me feel very happy that she's giving it a good look. Steve |
