Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: Recovering SDA

Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 1:04 pm:

Sabra, while I don't agree with some things that Benny Hinn says, I do know a couple of folks who were healed in a couple of his services. And yes, the Lord does use miracles to get the attention of people and bring them into His kingdom. It doesn't just happen in other countries, it happens in our own. Actually, sometimes people in our western mindset are more in need of seeing a miracle done that testifies to the power and truth of the gospel than those in less developed countries.

Terry, I understand your being skeptical of things that you hear now since leaving Adventism. I've been right there myself. I think we all are. But do keep an open mind and allow the Lord to teach you. Remember you are coming from the land of spiritual death into a whole new world of Christianity, and there's an awful lot that has been going on all these many years that you are entirely ignorant about. He just may have some surprises for you. Just stick to the topics the Lord seems to want to teach you about, and don't stress about the rest for now.

Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 4:23 pm:

Good advice, Lydell. And remember, Paul wrote to the Philippians, "The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." (Phil 1:18)

Paul doesn't mean that motives and doctrine don't matter. He is saying, in context, that some people preach out of envy and rivalry, but we aren't to fret ourselves over others' motives. We are to rejoice if people find Jesus. And as most of us know, when we find Jesus (or Jesus finds us!) he leads us consistently toward true Biblical truth and understanding.

God even uses people who are not born again to give spiritual blessing to those who need it--remember, Judas was sent out to perform miracles and to cast out demons along with the rest of the 12. But God doesn't leave us confused and blinded if our desire is to know him.

The point of our searching should be Jesus. He will reveal himself wherever we can see him. Jesus even told the disciples that if the children didn't cry out and proclaim him, the rocks would.

Praise God that his love and power are sovereign over every pretension that sets itself up against him!

Colleen

Sabra (Sabra)

Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 4:35 pm:

Terryk When I first left Adventism I was going to a small Pentecostal church and of course there was a lot going on there that I had been told was of the devil. I used to talk to this one person about my fears and he would always say, "What do you have to be afraid of? God's promised to never leave you or forsake you." and I'd say, yeah, but what if that's the devil! and he would say, "Why do you need to be afraid of the devil?" It took some time before I realized where he was coming from. He had that assurance that God is in control and is all powerful that I never had before. I'll tell you for sure, God does speak to people, gives them dreams and visions and He heals all the time, I've seen it too much to doubt it. I think that verse keeps coming into my head because God is saying that he doesn't want me to second guess His power. He wants praise for His miracles, signs and wonders! It is truly an awesome feeling to realize that the Holy Spirit will lead you in the right way and your salvation will not be in question even if you don't have it all figured out. Bless you!

African (African)

Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 10:50 pm:

Hi All - I haven't been here for a while but I have been trying to catch up on the discussions. I have been blessed by this forum in so many ways!

Susan 2 - I'm intrigued with what you mentioned above about speaking in tongues. This is something that was shunned in the SDA church and it always sounded a little scary to me! How does one know what they're speaking and how does it edify you? I know this could be a whole new topic on it's own ....?

Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 11:27 pm:

I know true born again Christians who speak in tongues and some who never have. 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 is really clear that there are many spiritual gifts�tongues being one of those listed�and interpretation of tongues being another. while many people say the gift of tongues is exclusively human languages given to enable people to preach, 2 Cor. 14:13-18 seems to suggest that Paul spoke in tongues that were something related to private worship of God, not something directed toward others during evangelism.

I think 1 Cor. 12:11 sheds light onto the question of tongues and all spiritual gifts: "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." God himself dispenses the spiritual gifts to people. We don't get to choose which gift(s) we want and make them happen. They are for the building up of the body of Christ, and they are given according to his sovereign will.

I believe that the gifts come to us in God's time and in God's way. Our responsibility is always to stay foucssed on our relationship with Jesus. When we seek Him, the gifts are an outgrowth of our relationship. If we begin seeking the gifts, our focus is off Christ and onto power or influence.

It's interesting that 1 Corinthians 13 is sandwiched between the two chapters that most clearly detail the distribution and the practice of spiritual gifts. Love�divine love flowing through a true Christ-follower�is the power that accompanies true spiritual gifts. The fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is the true identifying mark of a person submitted to Jesus. Power without the fruit is of limited value because it ends up drawing attention to the "performer" instead of to Jesus.

Praise God for the completely individual ways he reveals himself to us!

Colleen

Sabra (Sabra)

Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 6:33 am:

Speaking in tongues is a gift but for the purpose of edification. We shouldn't use it as a trophy from God that we are more spiritual or more mature than the Christian who doesn't speak in tongues. That's where satan gets in and messes it all up. I don't think it is something we should try to 'get' either. If God wants us to speak in tongues, we will. Too much emphasis on it in many churches.

Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 7:35 am:

I only put that comment in referring to the various worship styles. Considering the Catholic to be a very formal service, as are all service where a literage is followed, I was surpised to find myself in a Catholic servie where talking in tongues was what was going on. Even the priest up in front did this. I watched in amazement. It was very edifing. Ver reverant. It sounded like sweet music. I have heard many long time Lutherans say they have never heard of speeking in tongues in a Lutheran setting. I've been told by SDA's that speeking in tongues is impossible to be a language God understands because profesors of lingguists have studied talking in tongues and have determined that the basic rules of language don't apply to the lanuage of tongues. Therefore it is not of God. When I say that's corny because God doesn't need to follow the rules of language I'm told by the SDA's I've discussed his with that they know they are right because God is a God of order and not of chaos. I'll telly you though what I've observed in the Catholic service thre was no chaos. It was very orderly.

Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 2:00 pm:

Exactly Susan, God doesn't have to follow the rules of language. Really, tongues would more correctly be considered the whole essence of language....the thoughts, the feelings, the meanings being communicated directly spirit to Spirit without the distraction of words coming between. And you are right, it can be very reverent.

Colleen, while you are right that the gifts are given in God's timing and in God's way, I don't think that means that we don't ask for the gifts. We are told to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that we may prophecy. It's no different, I think, than being sick and praying for healing. Or wanting to understand a verse, and asking for it to be explained. It's simply another part of the normal Christian life and shouldn't be a major focus.

Obviously the healing comes in God's timing and in God's way, but we still ask that it be done. Generally things we desire, we ask for. So I have to suspect that often the reason we don't have is because we don't ever ask. That doesn't just apply to spiritual gifts, but also to help in solving problems, etc.

And, of course, there is always the thing that we can ask with the wrong motive. We want the gift for ourselves, to draw attention to ourselves, rather than for empowerment for ministry. But you are so right that our focus is always always to be on Him and not on the gifts!

African, I'll give a shot at answering your question. Have you ever been in deep prayer for something that was desperately important to you? A time when maybe you were praying for someone else, and you eventually came to the end of all the words that you had to express what was in your heart? And have you ever had an experience at those times that somehow, even tho you weren't speaking words, or even thinking words, that you were, in some way, still expressing your heart's cry to God? If you have ever had that experience, then tongues would pretty much be the same way. You know.

When I pray in tongues, I don't necessarily know precisely what it is I am praying, but I do have the general sense of the topic and intent. In our church tongues is used in our services as a private prayer language. Occassionally those who are on the prayer ministry team will stop praying in English, and pray quietly in tongues for a few moments, and very often immediately begin praying again in english. Only this time the direction of the prayer has changed just a bit, or maybe it has changed drastically, and usually this new direction turns out to be exactly what was needed to break through in the mind of the person we have been praying for. It's an interesting thing to watch.

There is this sense when you are worshipping in English, and then move instead into worshipping in tongues that a barrier has been dropped out of the way. Like you are no longer being help back and can really "say" what it is you want to tell the Lord.

Is any of this answering your question?

Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 3:45 pm:

I agree, Lydell. In fact, after I posted that last post I realized that I really didn't address the fact that Paul also said to earnestly desire the greater gifts. I take that to mean that we are to ask God to give us the gifts of the Spirit. And Jesus said that God would more gladly grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask than even a human father would grant food to his child.

My caution in speaking about the gifts is that I have talked with people whose desire to experience the gifts was so strong that it completely eclipsed the continuing, often unremarkable reality of abiding in Christ. I actually heard one person say, in reference to the gifts of the Spirit and the power they represent, "If I can't have all that, then I don't want God!"

When I heard that, I realized that God's most wonderful and personal gifts to us can be mishandled and can ultimately distract us from Jesus. In fact, this problem is apparently what Paul was addressing with the Corinthians church in his first epistle to them.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would testify of Him. That testifying would include the gifts. When people desire the gifts more than they desire Jesus, they are "worshiping" the marks of Jesus' presence instead of Jesus in much the same way the Adventists "worship" Sabbath, the shadow of Christ, instead of Christ himself.

Yes, I believe the gifts of the Spirit are for all Christ-followers. How and when God grants them is up to him, but we do have complete freedom to ask God for them. When our deepest desire is to know Jesus and to experience Him, the gifts become an almost natural outgrowth of that relationship. Not everyone is gifted the same way, but the gifts become a natural part of the relationship we have with Jesus, and when we use those gifts, they benefit the rest of the body and also deepen our own spiritual growth. The gifts, I believe, are part of the way Jesus reveals himself to us and also to the world through us. They're all about HIM!

Praise Jesus for choosing us and filling us with His Spirit!

Colleen

Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 8:15 pm:

Oh, I agree with you for sure Colleen. And you know, really, any time someone becomes focused on just one aspect of the faith, they become an unbalanced person and a tad kooky. Like you said, it should all be about Jesus.

Okay, this is totally off the subject here. But just for a laugh...
we just had some folks from church over who had never been here before. They were greeting our dog who is, um, shall we say plump. (There's a darned good reason why her name is Snacky.) And one of the ladies asked rather carefully, "is she pregnant?" Durn, they done insulted my dog!
Hope everyone has a great weekend.

Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 5:03 am:

URGENT PRAYER REQUEST! My youngest child is only 16. Oh, I've been through the wringer with that one. He came in so drunk earlier last evening that I felt I needed to call the probation because if I let him go to sleep he could die. I am so glad I called because his blood alcohol level was nearly a 0.3 In California an ADULT is legally drunk when the alcohol level is a 0.08. So, you can see he was way drunk. They took him to the hospital and gave him an i.v. of plain fluid and obered him up and he's been booked into juvvenile hall. I really believe my child is an alcoholc. I just pray he gets the help he needs. He is VERY ANGRY at me. Oh, please, all of you pray abot this. Pray that everyone involved i guided by God in my childs placement and that he will realize he needs help. I, too, need so much help knowing how to be about this. My dad just died one month ago (one month ago today) and I still just cry and cry because I miss him so much. My oldest son called several days ago to tell me he got his orders and if we go to war with Iraq he will be with the very first ones over there. His wife is pregnnt. My third child moved to Europe five days after he turned 18. I miss him so much. He's living with the one in the Military who has the pregnant wife. Everything has changed in my little world and I'm all nutty from it and we all in my family NEED your prayers. Thank-you.

Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 5:55 am:

Praying for all of you Susan! Praying especially for mom. I'm betting it is going to be extremely difficult for you right now, in the midst of your grief over the loss of your father, to be tough with your son. But you will have to be tough to truly be loving. I can't say it strong enough: Please get hooked up with Al-Anon. Those folks can give you some ideas on how to cope, what will help, what will hurt the situation, and they will understand where you are coming from. They are also the ones who can hook you up with the resources you will need. I have friends who are actively involved in AA both as the abuser and the family member dealing with the abuser. They will help you understand how you have a part in drawing a line to help force your son to face his problem. Don't try to kid yourself, you are going to need their help in doing it!

About your son in the military. I've tried to think of a soft way of saying this, and have never come up with one. I don't think there is an easy way. It is just one of those tough places in life. So I really don't know of a way of saying this except to be straight with you.

I can't imagine being in that position of knowing that it is your son who will go to war. But I CAN tell you how you will get thru it. See, my husband was in the military and is now a helicopter flight instructor of military pilots. His job is extremely high risk. Every day he goes off to work is one that he faces the definite possibility of being killed, if not by the student doing something wrong, then his own momentary lapse in judgment, or a problem with the aircraft. So I do well understand the thing of facing the "what ifs". The wife or mother of a policeman and a fire fighter face the same thing every day.

You will have to get yourself alone with God and have a serious talk. You have got to get firmly, I mean firmly, planted in your mind that it is God who controls the time of death for your son. HE ALONE knows what is best in our lives. It is HE ALONE who determines the number of days of our lives. That means that when the length of the days of your child are up they are up, whether he is off at war or sitting on the sofa beside you at home.

And that has already been the way life has been up to this point. You just weren't thinking about it. The "what if" could have happened when he was still a babe "safely" in your arms. The awful could have happened even back then. It doesn't mean you don't pray for his protection! It just means that now more than ever you have got to get a grip on "God is in control."

Absolutely you would make a mistake to forget that God can use even this situation to do a deep work in the life of that son who is potentially facing the idea of going off to war. He can use it in the life of your daughter in law. He can use this to create a home situation for that new grandchild that is coming that will be a solid Christian home for that baby. So be praying most of all that God puts excellent Christians in your sons and daughter-in-law's paths thru this. No matter where your sons go, they will still be in the hands of God.

Your daughter-in-law will have the other military wives around her to help her thru this, if she chooses to stay where she is now. They will be a huge resource in helping her cope with how to get thru the uncertanties. Really, I think it is harder for the families back at home because they aren't in a position of being able to get the updates that the wives get all the time. Unless you can be in regular contact with her via computer? That would certainly help.

Dennis (Dennis)

Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 9:42 pm:

Please hear my heart. I am not saying that those who speak in tongues are immature in their faith. I believe that many who speak in tongues are in love with Jesus Christ and want everything God has for them. Evidently, the gift of tongues was given to one church, a carnal, immature one at that. In some churches, there is an invisible caste system. When people say the "haves" have spoken in tongues and the "have-nots" have not spoken in tongues, they set up a harmful division between Spirit-filled believers. Some feel that the purpose of tongues is to enable them to have a prayer language. However, "prayer language" is not a term used in the Word of God. And gifts were given so that we could build one another up, not use them in private. Believers who speak in tongues should carefully evaluate their motivation. For example, is it for the glory of God, or is it because of pressure from a group? Do you feel that you would be a lesser saint than others if you did not speak in tongues? The Bible urges us to pursue love, not tongues.

When one of the disciples asked for a sign after the Resurrection, Jesus told him, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). We are to live not by signs but by faith.

If the gift of tongues was the only evidence that one is filled with the Spirit, I believe Paul would have made that clear. Not one verse supports that view. Not a verse. But we are admonished over and over again to be filled with the Spirit.

If I live for signs, I am a spiritual babe. I believe God heals and does wonderful miracles today, but they are not for a sign. He does them out of love for His children. The emphasis in the New Testament church was evangelism and growth--not healing and tongues. Paul stated his focus, "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (I Cor. 2:2). His emphasis is the Cross. It must be ours as well.

Tongues can not be sought as a spiritual high. It is not the ultimate experience. The ultimate of the Christian life is "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death" (Phil. 3:10). You didn't earn your salvation. And you didn't earn your gift. God graced it to you. More important than acquiring a specific gift is discovering the gifts God has given you. Do you know what your spiritual gifts are? Are you using them in the body of Christ to benefit others? If not, you are robbing yourself of the joy of giving to others and robbing others of the benefit they would derive from your gifts. Take a positive step toward discovering the gifts God has given you to serve the church and fulfill your special role in His body. Ask your pastor for a spiritual gifts inventory. There are several kinds. My church, an Evangelical Free Church, periodically conducts a spiritual gifts class.

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer

Terryk (Terryk)

Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 8:51 am:

Thank you for that I think that is waht I was trying to say earlier . Thank you for supporting it with the Bible. I can only go by my experienve in christ he has never approached me in this manner. Terry

African (African)

Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 12:47 am:

Thank you, all of you, for your insights. I know I sidetracked from Terry�s original topic but I am grateful for the sharing. We�re still having a hard time finding a Church family and we�re still having home worship. We live in a very small town so the choice of church is not so wide and varied as most of your experiences.I know that God is going to lead us.

Lydell � I can relate to your explanation � there were times after leaving Adventism when I could not express in words my hearts cry and I would just sob in His presence. I know without a doubt, that at those times, that God was with me and that He knew exactly my struggles even though I could not put my feelings into words.

What I am enjoying most in my journey away from Adventism is the discovery of the Bible as it is, and getting to know Jesus more and more. There is just so much I am learning and discovering � it is totally awesome. As an Adventist, it was important to pay my tithes and �keep the Sabbath� etc and I thought I was doing pretty good doing what was required. Yet deep in my heart I knew there just had to be more. I praise God for Jesus � I praise Him for His wonderful grace that continues to fill me with awe. I thank Him for this newfound, wonderfu, amazing ongoing relationship I now have with Him because He did it all!

Susan you�re in my prayers too, with your painful situations. God Bless.

Terryk (Terryk)

Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 9:08 am:

African what is your story? Is it posted somewhere already? I am new here.Thanks Terry

Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 4:27 pm:

Hi, African! I also relate to your experience of crying before God without having words to express whatever it is you're feeling. When we first left ADventism, I would sometimes be overcome by a sense of awe and love for Jesus, and I'd feel like crying. I'd try to figure out what I was crying about, and I finally realized it was a result of the Holy Spirit convicting my heart about the truth and love of Jesus.

Now when those experiences happen I don't try to analyze them. I understand that my spirit--the part of me that knows God and is connected to the Holy Spirit--is involved in my worshipping God. Sometimes I still can't believe how much I cry during the worship singing in church--and at home when I have music on and sometimes when I'm studying the Bible. It's quite a new experience--still, even after four years! It's still amazing to be in church and to sense that I'm not the only one crying--even men wipe their eyes. Wow, that didn't happen in my past!

Dennis, thank you for stating so clearly your understanding of the gifts. And Lydell, thank you also for explaining how your spirit worships.

Praising God for putting His song in my heart,
Colleen

Lee (Lee)

Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 6:54 pm:

Yes! Music is a wonderful vehicle to touch the heart. Actually, music was the chink in my steadfast SDA armour. I started listening to modern contemporary christian music about 5 years ago. This music really ministered to my soul and opened my heart to a vast Christianity that I had never believed to exist.

Last week the Michigan Conference sent out their weekly newsletter to elders(I still qualify for the moment) They enclosed a copy of a article from E.B.Price in Australia. He writes about 5 contemporary SDA churches in AU that are failing by his evaluation. The purpose in Mi Conf sending this out is that here there is a concerted effort to clamp down hard on anything that appears contemporary, especially music.

The local SDA pastor then sent out the letter in an E-Mail to his members titled "For You Contemporary, so called, Adventists. Read this and Weep!"
How sad to reject such a powerful tool for ministry.

Everyday I am seeing more clearly the exclusive and narrow church that is Adventism. I also can see that it is not good for me spiritually to try to stay. As I read the testimonies here I'm impressed that leaving is a growth accelerator.

I am still in the anger and frustration mode. But I'm rapidly realizing that I'm the only one sweating my leaving. The people I think are my friends in the church will not even miss me after a week or so. It's been a shock to discover that the institution is more important than the people to many SDAs. Guess I've been very naive about the church.

Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 7:39 pm:

Yes, Lee,leaving SDA'ism is deffinatelly a growth inhancer. Everyone I've personally known who became a committed Christian (as opposed to the ones that just left SDA'ism to become spun-out stoners) after leaving the SDA church has gone on to have a much higher quality of life. I don't mean in money and wealth but rather I mean in peace in their hearts, actually looking forward to going to church instead of looking forward to sunset on Saturday evenings, having a joy knowing the Triune God rather than just knowing the rules. My story is somewhat different than most on here as in the 5th grade I had such a gung-ho teacher that spent very little time on accademics and a very great amount of time about EGW that by the middle of 5th grade I'd made up my mind that when I grew up I WAS NOT going to go to my parents stupid church. But, I always wanted to go to church. I remember as a kid if my parents weren't along I'd sneek into other churchs "just to feel them out". But, there was one SDA minister in the local SDA church that was so grace bent that I did go to that SDA church for the 12 years he was there until he got fired. I remember in 5th grade our teacher had us memorize John 3:16. Then somewhat later in the term she taught us the cornball SDA teaching on the state of the dead. I kept telling her she was wrong because John 3:16 said,"whosever believes on Him SHALL NOT DIE BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE". She used to keep me in at recess until I'd tell her the SDA church was right and I realized I was just 11 years old and couldn't understand the truth yet. I ALWAYS KNEW the Good Lord would lead me to where He wanted me to be. I take my mom to the local SDA church sometimes and frankly, I DO NOT see the joy of the Risin Christ in that church. I don't hear it in their songs or socials, either. I believe I'm observant enough that the reason I don't see or hear it is becausae it's just plain not there. Thank-you, Holy Spirit for leading me to a joyful, grace-based church.

Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 9:06 am:

Dennis, you are right, in some churches, there is an invisible caste system of those who have and have not spoken in tongues. But the fact that some group has a skewed focus doesn't mean that we should toss the whole subject out. There are many Christians who have a balanced view of tongues as being merely ONE of the gifts. And that all gifts are given for the purpose of equipping the saints for ministry.

You said: "prayer language" is not a term used in the Word of God. And you are right, it is nothing more than a short way of saying what is said in I Cor. 14: 2. Sometimes we can let another's terminology immediately turn us off to listening to what they have to say.

You said: I believe God heals and does wonderful miracles today, but they are not for a sign. I believe you should check out the context of John 4:48, Mk. 16:17,20 and Acts 2:22, 4:30, 14:3. "Signs" does sometimes include "healing". The healing apparantly "bore witness" that what was being spoken was true.

As someone in our church said this week, "plenty of people had told me I was going to hell. And I just thought, 'yeah well, that's just your opinion'. I didn't care what their opinion was. But when I heard someone say, "God knows you have told yourself..." and they proceeded to say word for word the thought that had been in my head and I had never spoken it outloud to anyone, then I knew for sure that God wanted my attention. And that's when I finally listened to what they had to say."

Today we live in a world of relativism. There is no right or wrong, no one true religion, thousands who have never known what a "father's love" is, and "spirituality" is a neutral concept for personal interpretation. Acts that "bear witness" to the truth of the Word being taught are as powerful and necessary today as in Bible times. And they are happening. The power of the kingdom of God is being demonstrated. It's something we were ignorant of while in Adventism, and now that we are out, we see it.

The cross and our salvation are absolutely essential. (The traditional churches have been teaching this well for years.) But the salvation experience and all that was accomplished at the cross is of limited effect if we don't put it to use. Surely we will all agree with that! We open more areas of our life/heart to His touch, and that allows His Spirit to fill more areas. It is as that happens that the gifts become visible and, far more importantly, activated in ministry.

Folks in more traditional churches tend to immediately shut down when they hear the label "charismatic" and refuse to listen anything those folks have to say. But the Lord has also given the "charismatic" churches an understanding of some stuff to teach Christendom. And that is that the gifts have been left on your doorstep. But the gifts are useless if they are never opened AND put to use.

Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 9:55 am:

And African, and anyone else who is interested,I'm glad the explanation helped some. Should you feel inclined when in the place again of not having the words to express the feeling, whether it is praise to Him or concern over a situation, you can ask Him to release the gift of tongues in you.

It's not a big deal, you don't need someone else to pray over you. Just ask. Then start speaking whatever "words" seem to come to mind. Some of us, instead, just feel that the mouth and tongue are forming some "words", speak them out. Remember, you can't "speak" a language without actually opening your mouth and "speaking".

It may be only a word or two at first (remember how difficult it was the first time you prayed out loud? or the first time you witnessed to someone? we always take baby steps at first...) As with any exercise, the more you do it, the more easily it flows.

And pay attention to Luke 11:13. If we ask for the Holy Spirit, we get the Holy Spirit, not a rock or serpant.

Susan, I loved reading your post. You sure were a gutsy kid! I believe you and Peter would get along real well. ha Isn't it fascinating how the Lord can reveal Himself so well to kids? You definitely experienced the "rhema" word of God!

Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:51 pm:

A coment about speeking-as you all probably know it's most likely unheard of a Lutheran speeking in tongues. However, even the Lutherans (and the local Catholic church, too) have a practice that I'm even too reserved for. At the Lutheran church where I regurally attend they have the acolite read "the prayers of the church". After the prayer requests are read th person up front says, "and now other intersessions will be said" at which time the congeration each prays out loud for God to hear ther prayer requests. I've been attening St. John's two years now and still haven't gotten to where I can say a name out loud with th entire congreation in the room. At the same time I try not to listen to others intersessions because I realize these prayers are private prayers between the individuals and God. It is not chaos. It is very reverant and strctured. In fact, it's rather formal. It's just no my style-yet. BTW, I've attended several Lutheran churchs over the past several years of differant synods and they have each had this practice.

Janet (Janet)

Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 8:34 pm:

Thanks Lydell, I would like to hear more on this topic.
Janet

Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 6:08 am:

I'll try to answer any questions you may have, Janet.

Janet (Janet)

Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 9:53 pm:

Lydell, I would like to email you further on this topic, if it is OK with you??? My email address is Magwhisk@aol.com Thanks so much, for your help.
Janet

Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:31 pm:

Lee, I understand your feelings about leaving and about the people and about the conference's attitudes, etc. This experience is emotional and draining and depressing and angering.

God is in it all, Lee. He will not leave you or forsake you regardless of what you're experiencing. He will use these experiences, and he will redeem them.

I'm praying for you.

Colleen